Is asking a tank to use his enmity+ buff rude?

The only reason I tank with defiance / shield oath is so my WHM can Holy in cleric stance.

Holy is OP but any healer in cleric stance is better DPS than a PLD in sword oath or a WAR not in defiance. 20% isn't really that big of a penalty compared to a whole other person doing some damage. Hell, I hate not having defiance up for wrath on my warrior, steel cyclone and bloodbath are fun.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

That is incorrect. Tank enmity generation scales directly with damage, so it scales identically as DPS. 1 damage is 1 enmity. Skull Sunder gets 3 enmity per point of damage. Butcher's Block gets 5 enmity per point of damage. Defiance and Shield Oath multiply all enmity by 1.5.

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What he's referring to is that it takes much more STR or DET to make up for weapon damage. Damage, and by association, threat, does not scale for a tank as quickly as +1 on weapon. So indirectly he's already made your point. For example -- if you were somehow in full allaghan with an ifrit's axe, you'd probably have a harder time than someone in darklight with a +1. Please don't make me actually do the math, but you get my point.

Dat knee jerk post breh.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

One cast of Holy will do as much damage as you do over an entire pull from Sword Oath.
SNIP

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I don't recall at any point stating that I explicitly use a WHM as my healer. Your math looks right, and I agree about the dps gains comparing PLD dps vs Holy usage. Things that I don't think you are calculating on however: MP conservation/usage to keep that rate of Holy usage throughout entire run (I've seen WHM try to do this and be OOM halfway through run when chain/multi-group pulling). I've also done runs where I had a SCH as my healer who stayed in Cleric Stance the entirety of the run and let Eos heal, and only needed to cast 1-3 heals himself throughout the entire run.

As I said earlier, I feel that it really depends on the party composition, and the individual players involved. At this point however, we have gone completely off-topic from the OPs post. I'll continue this discussion in a different post if you want Gamemako, but I don't want to further derail the thread.

This kinda went off topic, I sometimes forget to put shield oath back up after demon wall and I would love to be reminded before I start getting destroyed and wasting mp. Pld is a second class for me so my gear will be no better than darklight for a while so I like shield oath. Off topic what burns me up being only semi geared is when you have a blm/whm/brd spamming non-stop aoe and a mnk/drg going full blast single target dps, I have to choose who is gonna get hate and it's always the single target and they always feel the need to tell me how bad I suck.

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Originally Posted by Lecan

Am I being rude? Is there a 'good' way to ask someone to change what they are doing to make my dungeon runs a little easier?

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I haven't read the whole topic of replies so I will just answer directly to your opening post.

It is not rude to ask a tank to assist you in a certain way. However, I would keep in mind to be more specific about it.

Imagine someone telling you "please use your heal skill", that impliedly saying you are not healing at all or very suggestive that he's being sacarstic.

So if the tank is missing his shield oath, do kindly tell him "you forgot your shield oath".

Saying "please use your threat skill" is (kind of) equavilent to saying "please tank better, you noob".

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Originally Posted by NeonC

Level the tank classes first, get an understanding of them then offer advice imo.

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Ignore this fool. If the tank is smart, they should turn it on when they see themselves taking too much damage or loosing too much threat.
It's not rude at all! Just ask nicely!

That does't even make sense, you turn it on before battle first of all and second read the post above yours. It's OK to ask for anything reasonable if you are informed. If some clueless whm if casting cure II on a nearly topped off tank and asking them to use their "enmity boosting thingy" you are going to get a lot of eyerolls or worse. I'm just saying, know what you want to ask for before you ask for it. Using defiance isn't going to magically give the tank more AOE hate control, ask them to overpower/flash...etc

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Originally Posted by Maelwys

Fire, like most targetted magic attacks, can be dodged reliably 100% of the time by breaking line of sight with a mob before the casting timer ends.
If you walk through the geometry of the blob so that you're at his back (just as if you were dodging a "cone attack") this breaks line of sight.

It's the same with a lot of mobs, e.g. the Psycheflayer in AK - Void Thunder III can be dodged the exact same way, so that you only have to stun "Mind Melt".

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I knew you could do that with void thunder in AK, but did not know that about the blob... that is very useful. TYVM :)

Sword Oath does not just add 50 damage per auto attack, it adds an ADDITIONAL auto attack per AA round @ 50 pot. They really need to fix the translation on all the broken help text in this game. If you doubt my statement, simply watch your AA damage the next time you engage. You will do 2 AA's per round, the 2nd one, being the 50 potency one, doing less damage than your regular auto attack.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

I do not believe that is the case, because if it were, then a Tank in Shield oath/Defiance would be generating more enmity than a Tank in sword oath/not in defiance.

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It does in fact generate more enmity than a tank without. This is necessary for PLD in particular, who would otherwise be forced to do nothing at all when not main-tanking.

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Originally Posted by Enjin

What he's referring to is that it takes much more STR or DET to make up for weapon damage. Damage, and by association, threat, does not scale for a tank as quickly as +1 on weapon.

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I believe that would be misleading. There is only one weapon upgrade to make in Coil and only one weapon upgrade to make for Titan HM. You are comparing ilvl60 to ilvl70 or ilvl80 to ilvl90. These are not great jumps; the difference in STR scaling is minimal between the two (2.5-3%). This would not change your stat allocation decisions. One way or the other, though, you can hold enmity on ilvl90 players going full blast when wearing ilvl55 gear, so if you're losing enmity, it's your fault. This large buffer is why tanks often forgo relic+1 when other options are available.

I will note, however, that I did interpret that player's comments to be the (somewhat common) misconception that "increased enmity" is a flat bonus rather than a multiplier.

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Originally Posted by Lucavern

I'll continue this discussion in a different post if you want Gamemako, but I don't want to further derail the thread.

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Might be worth doing later.

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Originally Posted by Enjin

What he's referring to is that it takes much more STR or DET to make up for weapon damage. Damage, and by association, threat, does not scale for a tank as quickly as +1 on weapon. So indirectly he's already made your point. For example -- if you were somehow in full allaghan with an ifrit's axe, you'd probably have a harder time than someone in darklight with a +1. Please don't make me actually do the math, but you get my point.

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Reread the post:

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Originally Posted by Zoomie

Most people don't realize that tank threat gen scales very little with gear. While our coil dps is getting stronger and stronger by the item, a tanks threat is effected way less by anything other than a wep or a +1.

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He's saying that non-weapon items somehow scale better for DPS classes in terms of damage done/enmity generated. What he forgets is that many of our threat moves have a very high threat multiplier, so while the actual DPS boost we get may be small, we're getting some 3x that (on average ... ish) in terms of bonus threat generated.

Thus the idea that a tank's enmity doesn't scale as fast as that of DPS, simply because the damage doesn't scale as fast, is false.

If there were a scaling problem with gear, it might only be that the ilvl 90 tank acc have few (if any) dps stats on them, while the ilvl 90 DPS class acc are loaded with them. Even then, as long as you're comparing standard tank sets of gear (no materia), none of the base tank acc have any STR on it either so it's not like the % amount of their primary DPS stat is changing between the tanks and the DPS classes. So I still doubt it's true in this case.

i play pld only reason it isnt up is if i switched class between runs and forgot about it. definately not rude to tell me. unless you notice it and say nothing then bitch at me after you die lol

AK was designed to be difficult but beatable in ilvl50 gear. It's ment to be easily beaten in ilvl60 gear under normal party setups.
Once the tank completelly overgears the instance, shield oath becomes less and less relevant. Once the dps also over gears the instance, it really just becomes a race of time investment versus rewards.

I tank AK in sword oath only. Period. If the healer can't keep me up, then honestly he would be getting carried anyway. If I don't have any oath up- then please remind me to put an oath up. If I'm loosing hate, and not grabbing it back from you, run to me (or stand still) so I can cover you, do not kite me. Kiting me makes it harder for me to re-establish hate. But if you ask me to switch stances to shield oath, i will comply, but I will ask for stoneskin everytime that awesome spell of yours wears off.

In coils on the other hand, please remind me to go shield oath... I do infact forget at times!

My single target DPS tends to be threat capped whenever the tank forgets shield oath. Thus if I want to be a good dps and not pull agro, the tank's lack of shield oath/defiance lowers the party dps.

I loled at the AXE thing of war. Is called Defiance

I find it's usually best not to give advice unless it's asked for.

Yeah probably forgot to turn it on after switching class . The secret is trying to tell them without making them appear incompetent and rage quit group in embarrassment .

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Originally Posted by Dale

I find it's usually best not to give advice unless it's asked for.

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Same , from experience giving advice is sometimes a bad idea .

For example I was playing my bard and during a BOSS FIGHT
forgot to click mage ballad back off after whm ran low on mp .

This other bard gave me some advice telling me how I was lowering my dps by 20% .

I just quit the group instantly and thought to myself "Now you have 100% less dps from me beeetch!"

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Originally Posted by Grailer

I just quit the group instantly and thought to myself "Now you have 100% less dps from me beeetch!"

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People such as yourself are a blight upon the community.
If you cannot take advice from someone who is genuinely trying to be helpful, then don't play an MMO game.
Play an FPS.

If the tank can't hold the mobs and dd's or healer get aggro from playing normal (not starting with all out attacks and overhealing), the tank should use tank stance and I'd also advice him to do so if he won't use it after a "messed up" mob group.

Some players seem to think if they have so and so gear they can go without tank stance because they saw a video of someone doing so.
This might work in certain situations and with different job combinations but if you have problems holding aggro as tank, use your stance and do the job you are supposed to do.

I for my part, use tank stance for mob groups and hard hitting mobs and, if hate is no problem, Sword Oath or nothing with WAR when fighting single mobs or bosses where the damage I take is no problem for the healer.

Just always remember why you are there.
The tank is there to grab the mobs and keep them from attacking the other party members.
The tank is there to position the mobs, so everyone can do their job (especially important for MNK and DRG).
The tank is there to keep the required healing (MP use) as low as he can, so the party can survive longer fights.

The tank is NOT there for the damage! If you can deal some more damage without slacking in any of the above points, good, but it's not your main purpose.

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Originally Posted by Lecan

Am I being rude? Is there a 'good' way to ask someone to change what they are doing to make my dungeon runs a little easier?

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If your Tank is losing threat its not because of his buff, The only reason that buff has increased enmity is to make up for the loss of threat from reduction in dmg output. I have tested it with FC paladin tank over and over again. Sword oath or no oath generates far more Enmity than with Shield oath up because of the extra dmg you do. Doesn't make sense that it should but it does. Its just a dmg mitigation buff is all. It does however increase enmity to Flash where as not having the above oaths on would not generate any extra threat to flash, but would not take away any threat from it either. In short, if he has agro issues it's on his skill mainly and not buffs.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I find it's usually best not to give advice unless it's asked for.

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Oh please. He is the noob for either forgetting or getting angry at a valid question made by an observant player. If you remember that it doesnt really matter how angry he gets, a normal person would calmly explain why he isnt using it or apologize for forgetting. Worst case scenario there's a legit reason and you learn something.

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Originally Posted by Earnhardt

If your Tank is losing threat its not because of his buff, The only reason that buff has increased enmity is to make up for the loss of threat from reduction in dmg output. I have tested it with FC paladin tank over and over again. Sword oath or no oath generates far more Enmity than with Shield oath up because of the extra dmg you do. Doesn't make sense that it should but it does. Its just a dmg mitigation buff is all. It does however increase enmity to Flash where as not having the above oaths on would not generate any extra threat to flash, but would not take away any threat from it either. In short, if he has agro issues it's on his skill mainly and not buffs.

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Where is it ever worth it though? I've tried it in lower level dungeons but you still lack a lot of damage from all that vit and parry, not to mention being levelled down. Never found it to make a real difference, rather keep pulling non stop because healer isnt oom'ing.

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Originally Posted by Megido

Oh please. He is the noob for either forgetting or getting angry at a valid question made by an observant player. If you remember that it doesnt really matter how angry he gets, a normal person would calmly explain why he isnt using it or apologize for forgetting. Worst case scenario there's a legit reason and you learn something.

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Megido, as my post implied - advice is best received when it's asked for.

You aren't going to teach anyone anything by getting them angry or calling them a noob. In fact, they will probably do the very opposite of what you say just out of spite. So it's counter productive.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Megido, as my post implied - advice is best received when it's asked for.

You aren't going to teach anyone anything by getting them angry or calling them a noob. In fact, they will probably do the very opposite of what you say just out of spite. So it's counter productive.

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if you are doing something quite clearly wrong im going to point it out to you. could care less if you think its productive or not.

to many times ive run into tanks spamming rage of halone and losing aggro. too many times i find warriors not using overpower properly and pulling with provoke without a tomahawk....

or the really derpy fools using tomahawk then provoke. i explain to them that using provoke that way is absolutely pointless and they throw a tantrum :)

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Originally Posted by Devaking55

if you are doing something quite clearly wrong im going to point it out to you. could care less if you think its productive or not.

to many times ive run into tanks spamming rage of halone and losing aggro. too many times i find warriors not using overpower properly and pulling with provoke without a tomahawk....

or the really derpy fools using tomahawk then provoke. i explain to them that using provoke that way is absolutely pointless and they throw a tantrum :)

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You should care if it's productive or not though.

Annoying other players by telling them the way you think they should be playing when they aren't interested in your opinion is just going to make the group fall apart.

Now advising someone who is seeking help on how to play their class better is a whole different ball game.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Annoying other players by telling them the way you think they should be playing when they aren't interested in your opinion is just going to make the group fall apart.

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People who are playing poorly, and directly affecting your gameplay with their poor play, should be told what they're doing wrong. I am not advocating forcing your rotation down someone's throat, or forcing them to play only X way, or forcing them to speedrun through DF --because they're doin it wrong!-- but if they are failing miserably at the basics of their job and screwing up a group. . . I won't just sit there and let them suck out loud. People will call even real help non-productive because they don't like being called out.

There is a "be sensitive to everyone's feelings" sentiment going around in this game that is making TERRIBLE endgame players. (Yes, FC, get friends, don't play with randoms, etc.) I will correct people, and if they ragequit in their embarrassment or due to entitlement, so be it; maybe the next dungeon they get into, they'll play better. The advantage to correcting people you know is that they're up for a discussion, most people you don't know will just get offended and quit; moreso when you are right and they are wrong.

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Originally Posted by Dale

You should care if it's productive or not though.

Annoying other players by telling them the way you think they should be playing when they aren't interested in your opinion is just going to make the group fall apart.

Now advising someone who is seeking help on how to play their class better is a whole different ball game.

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If I'm correcting somebody, it's because whatever they're doing is already counter-productive because it's fundamentally wrong. We're talking stuff like PLDs thinking they only ever need to use RoH, or thinking that Shield Lob goes between SB and RoH. . .Stuff where, without popping CDs, I can easily hold better aggro than them on any given mob. At that point, even if they ignore my advice, it changes nothing, because I'm probably BRD-tanking either way. . .

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

There is a "be sensitive to everyone's feelings" sentiment going around in this game that is making TERRIBLE endgame players. (Yes, FC, get friends, don't play with randoms, etc.) I will correct people, and if they ragequit in their embarrassment or due to entitlement, so be it; maybe the next dungeon they get into, they'll play better. The advantage to correcting people you know is that they're up for a discussion, most people you don't know will just get offended and quit; moreso when you are right and they are wrong.

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It's not about being "sensitive".

You can't "make" people play the way you think they should. So it's pointless to try. All it does it upset the group and usually ends with it disbanding.

I am very tired of waiting over an hour in a duty finder only to have my group fall apart because so and so didn't like the way so and so was playing. So at least consider that.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

If I'm correcting somebody, it's because whatever they're doing is already counter-productive because it's fundamentally wrong..

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That might be. But trying to convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced is just going to make things worse.

When using the duty finder, you need to be prepared for this and accept that you are not always going to be playing with people who you agree with.

Like trying to convince Dale he is mistaken in this instance.

If they are main tanking they should be in shield oath and defiance. I have caught numerous of plds not using shield oath when pulling massive packs of mobs. If they are using sword oath they have to realize they 100 dps sucks anyhow. Only one I can back up for is a WAR with defiance cause they do some decent deeps. Whether or not the tank puts their buffs up to negate damage taken and emity depends on the dungeon and situation entirely. When my friends and I run AK our war runs without defiance and our pld runs in sword oath but both are heavily i90 geared. If its a duty finder group and they are unable to hold hate then turn it on tanking isn't a hard job yore a meat shield be nice to your healers.

as long as Pld/War can hold hate w/o Shield Oath or Defiance then its fine~
i alwasy run Pld in wp/ak w/ Sword Oath and have no problem not losing hate at all.
And if i notice that i can't keep the hate or the healer is having a hard time healing me then i simply change back to Shield Oath
and if ppl get mad if you tell them to change oath or if they forget it and got mad because you reminded them to,
then its better not playing with those kind of ppl, i usually remind tanks when im doing other classes~

also off topic but the emnity generation on single target with sword/shield oath is quite confusing
for example i had experiences where i steal the aggro on wave3 Dread on Coil turn4 and no,
my partner tank is not slacking tanking the dread(he have 70 overmelded accesories so he got more str than me)
and on turn 5 where i tried to pull/tank twintania with sword oath, the healer easily steals all the hate i generated,
and no again for overhealing because i doubt the
healer can overheal after u eat death sentence plus the debuff.

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Originally Posted by Dale

That might be. But trying to convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced is just going to make things worse.

When using the duty finder, you need to be prepared for this and accept that you are not always going to be playing with people who you agree with.

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Except I've almost always been successful teaching people how to play better. Not always, but almost always. The ones that don't listen I disregard and carry on. . .

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Originally Posted by Earnhardt

If your Tank is losing threat its not because of his buff, The only reason that buff has increased enmity is to make up for the loss of threat from reduction in dmg output. I have tested it with FC paladin tank over and over again. Sword oath or no oath generates far more Enmity than with Shield oath up because of the extra dmg you do. Doesn't make sense that it should but it does. Its just a dmg mitigation buff is all. It does however increase enmity to Flash where as not having the above oaths on would not generate any extra threat to flash, but would not take away any threat from it either.

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This isn't completely true. Flash will produce are more threat with tank stances they would be better for pld. However the rest is 100% correct... Sword oath/no defiance will produce A LOT more threat on a single target.

Tanking stances are to keep you alive not to allow you to keep threat.

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Originally Posted by Dale

You should care if it's productive or not though.

Annoying other players by telling them the way you think they should be playing when they aren't interested in your opinion is just going to make the group fall apart.

Now advising someone who is seeking help on how to play their class better is a whole different ball game.

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I'm going to point it out, and then advise against it, but if they don't know how to play the group had fallen apart already. Weird that you failed to see that.

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Originally Posted by AunaYuuki

If they are main tanking they should be in shield oath and defiance. I have caught numerous of plds not using shield oath when pulling massive packs of mobs. If they are using sword oath they have to realize they 100 dps sucks anyhow. Only one I can back up for is a WAR with defiance cause they do some decent deeps. Whether or not the tank puts their buffs up to negate damage taken and emity depends on the dungeon and situation entirely. When my friends and I run AK our war runs without defiance and our pld runs in sword oath but both are heavily i90 geared. If its a duty finder group and they are unable to hold hate then turn it on tanking isn't a hard job yore a meat shield be nice to your healers.

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Well if I can tank pulls without shield oath oh you best believe I will. Play and paladin you will come to love sword oath

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Originally Posted by Devaking55

Well if I can tank pulls without shield oath oh you best believe I will. Play and paladin you will come to love sword oath

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Well, *you* might like it, but you healer might not. I'm talking about on level tanking, not rediculously over-geared groups doing speed runs.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

[snip] Tanking stances are to keep you alive not to allow you to keep threat.

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Agree, but it sure is ounterintuitive.

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Originally Posted by Devaking55

I'm going to point it out, and then advise against it, but if they don't know how to play the group had fallen apart already. Weird that you failed to see that.

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Just because someone is playing in a way you don't approve of doesn't mean the group has fallen apart.

I have been in so many parties that were getting the job done... then someone just had to open their mouth and I watched in dismay as the party crumbled apart over a difference in opinion about rotations or what moves are best to use.

Unless it's an extreme example where said player is getting everyone killed by the way they are playing, I think it's best just to live and let live.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Except I've almost always been successful teaching people how to play better. Not always, but almost always. The ones that don't listen I disregard and carry on. . .

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Well it's been just the opposite in my experience.

Almost always when someone starts trying to tell someone else how to play it ends badly and the group falls apart. It's especially true with tanks, since they can get groups so easily they feel little need to put up with someone trying to tell them their class. So they are more likely to abruptly leave over the slightest perceived insult thrown their way. Which sucks for me, as then I have to wait an hour again in the god ______ dutyfinder.

So if you ever do happen to find yourself in a group with me, I would ask you to please not try to instruct the tank unless it's absolutely necessary :)