You can't get into Coil cause they are looking for experienced players only?

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Originally Posted by tymora

On pvp, I find it hard to imagine it other than "everyone go after the healer/casters" at this point of time.

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Then you've clearly never done team PvP in MMO's, because I can assure you that it's much, much more complex than that, and much more specific (skills to use, timing, coordination…), to be really competitive. Your 'strategy', if it could be called that, is the best way to be owned by the enemy team: you perform the obvious move, thus they counter you with ease before you even notice.

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Originally Posted by tymora

VoIP is overrated - Can be replaced with good macros.
Don't like and prefer not to use it - Someone like me finds trying to listen to people talk while focusing on the screen distracting.

Did Ifrit Extreme in 1.0 with and without VoIP - Won in a PUG that used just macros

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I find looking down to the corner of my chat box very distracting, especially if there are annoying sounds drawing my attention away from everything important that's centralized on my screen. A voice in my ear doesn't do that and I really am having a hard time believing it's distracting enough for ANYONE to the point it hinders their ability to perform. Do you have to turn off all game sounds as well?

Tymora I'm glad you're such a snowflake that VoIP somehow causes you to play worse but this is a game of teamwork and if you're going to insist your non-typical way of playing must somehow be accommodated purely because it's your preference then you're not a team player and it is fair for it to cost you groups.

Argue till you're blue in the face about what's possible but it's the reality of what most players do for organized, hard content. Can you read the group's mind on the dps order for turn 4? There are different working strategies out there and if everyone is on TS except one and that one demands that we sit there and type it out and not just call out stuff mid fight he is gone.

just don't do coil , its not really that much fun anyway . Better off just levelling other characters and getting relic of them , Then when additional content comes out you will have so many choices you wont know what to do with them,

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

So you use "traps" to find a reason to kick the person instead of explaining what they do after they mess up the first time (which, according to you, it's obvious when someone doesn't knows better and causes a wipe).
Nice to see you're so helpful.

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When we advertise we're looking for an experienced group, its usually because we're on a limited amount of time and need to get it done quickly, sometimes we simply don't have the time to teach someone how to do Turns 1-4 from scratch, it's not feasible so they get replaced so that 7 other people aren't screwed over.

If they're going to lie their way into a group who want to get it done quickly and out of the way, yes i'm gone to "trap" them into letting me know. Respect works two ways thank you very much.

I would much prefer them to tell me prior to entering so we can at least consider it "Oh well, they're playing Black Mage/White Mage/Bard, they can learn" instead of wiping us over and over and over.

I think my "trap" is justifiable if they lied to us in the first place.


SIDE NOTE: I'd like to also mention this is people flat out saying they've done it before, NOT people who have said "I watched a guide".

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Originally Posted by Grailer

just don't do coil , its not really that much fun anyway . Better off just levelling other characters and getting relic of them , Then when additional content comes out you will have so many choices you wont know what to do with them,

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I beg to differ, Coil is one of the best end game content I have ever played in an MMO. There is no reason for you or anyone to deny themselves Coil just cause you might run into bad mannered people.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Tymora I'm glad you're such a snowflake that VoIP somehow causes you to play worse but this is a game of teamwork and if you're going to insist your non-typical way of playing must somehow be accommodated purely because it's your preference then you're not a team player and it is fair for it to cost you groups.

....

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"Can you read the group's mind on the dps order for turn 4?"
-> You only need to type it once before it starts or if you're smart, macro it for re-use.

Forcing use of VoIP is discriminating needlessly against players who...
1. Simply don't understand your accents
2. Can read better than listen to your language (E.g. non-native English speakers)
3. Hard of hearing or deaf players
4. Lives in a place with background noise that not even a set of headphones can filter out? Pneumatic drills...and no this is not a joke in a place with half your neighbors doing renovations.

This is why coil needs to be in DF. Elitists will do anything they can to exclude. At least with Titan HM you get a chance, it may be low but at least you can still try!

Much better than brown nosing some elitist pig to let you in.

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Originally Posted by tymora

"Can you read the group's mind on the dps order for turn 4?"
-> You only need to type it once before it starts or if you're smart, macro it for re-use.

Forcing use of VoIP is discriminating needlessly against players who...
1. Simply don't understand your accents
2. Can read better than listen to your language (E.g. non-native English speakers)
3. Hard of hearing or deaf players
4. Lives in a place with background noise that not even a set of headphones can filter out? Pneumatic drills...and no this is not a joke in a place with half your neighbors doing renovations.

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Here's the bottom line: for the vast majority of people, VoIP is an easy, accessible way to communicate quickly. It is far faster than typing, less distracting than trying to communicate via macros and trying to read them mid-fight, and allows you to make corrections and adjustments on the fly. Sorry that it doesn't work for you. Don't join groups that require VoIP.

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Originally Posted by Scratchs

This is why coil needs to be in DF. Elitists will do anything they can to exclude. At least with Titan HM you get a chance, it may be low but at least you can still try!

Much better than brown nosing some elitist pig to let you in.

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This post is a joke, right?

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Originally Posted by tymora

Forcing use of VoIP is discriminating needlessly against players who...

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1. Silly argument, few accents are totally incomprehensible and even so it's a damned sight easier to communicate verbally than try to type while spamming heals or whatever and read the chatlog while staring at health bars

2. Silly argument, I've yet to meet someone who can read English better than they can listen to it

3. A valid point but doesn't outweigh the benefits of voice .. I was in a guild with a deaf member in WOW and someone was assigned to 'chat' with the player to relay information he needed to know, both of them therefore had less to do typing/reading and everyone else was able to concentrate on looking at the fight not the log

4. Noise-canceling headphones deal with a lot. Maybe YOU live in such a place but few others do, so to proffer it as a reason why voice chat shouldn't be used is laughable.

I'd firstly like to note, as long as you can hear the VoIP program this is better than nothing for the most part, as long as your group can relay information to you over voice, they'll be happier, even if you can't speak to them.

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Originally Posted by tymora

Forcing use of VoIP is discriminating needlessly against players who...

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That's the problem, to do The Binding Coil of Bahamut (TBC) efficiently you need to be able to communicate with your group quickly, which is the difference between a win and a wipe.

This is NOT about discrimination, if a group advertises that they want their players to use VoIP that is their choice.

Everyone understands that there are deaf people in the world and that deaf people play FFXIV, that is a fact.

Another fact, is that The Binding Coil of Bahamut is very difficult Turns 4 & 5 more-so. To effectivly communicate information, orders, suggestions, tactics VoIP is the best choice. You simply don't have the time to type in Turns 4-5 for the most part.

In the literal term of the word it isn't 'necessary', but if a group wants to achieve a smooth win they're going to need it. The best groups so far can communicate easily with each other and play well together in general.

If seven people can use VoIP and the eigth person can't, Turns 1-3 this isn't a problem you can easily use macro's and <se.x> commands to convey a message quickly, Turns 4-5 this becomes rather difficult. There's a lot to focus and concentrate on doing and reading a chat-log ontop of that becomes quick cumbersome.

It is VERY frustrating for a group of seven people to be able to communicate something and the eighth not being able hear because they don't have or can't use VoIP, it really is the difference between a win and a wipe.



Life is unfair and not everything is 'just' and perfect. There are groups i'm sure that will run with VoIP, but slapping a 'Bad People' sticker on people who want to use the content as it was originally intended (Yoshi-P himself stated VoIP will be pretty nessecary) you can't toss the blame.



TL;DR : The Binding Coil of Bahamut is difficult, it's frustrating when one or two people can't be communicated with. People aren't trying to discriminate, they're simply playing the game as it was intended to be played.

Just like the Producer/Director stated many times, one of the occasions was even on the forums below;

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post544090

Quote Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida View Post
Hi all, it’s ‘coming down with the flu’ Yoshida here,

Thanks for the discussion regarding voice chat. I wanted to present my thoughts on the subject, too.

Conclusion
We currently have no plans to implement voice chat into FFXIV, even for Version 2.0.

Level of Communication
I’m also an online gamer when I have spare time, so I use voice chat when playing MMOs, online games, FPSs, and fighting games. However, voice chat is mostly used by the “hardcore players”. In MMORPGs, “chat” is the main form of communication and because it is text based it is fairly simple to use. However, hearing everyone’s voices when you’re communicating amongst a huge group of players can be highly irritating. Risks put aside, I think that the communication level in comparison to chat is a few steps higher.

Pros and Cons
Everyone pretty much said everything already.

The main cons:
• There will be times when voice chat will be mandatory for things like instanced raids.
• In particular, there is a fear that female gamers will get harassed when the say something and will then want to stay away.
• A gap will appear between those that have/don’t have a mic.
• As this will eat up more bandwidth, there will be more bandwidth costs.
• We will need to create some kind of sound management, like creating an effect so that it's not your “real voice” that is being heard.

The main pros:
• It is much faster than chat for direct communication so when playing as a party it is much easier.
• If you can get along well with the other person, it is convenient, just like being on the phone.

Alternatives to Voice Chat
There are loads of great alternatives to voice chat such as Skype and Ventrillo. If we don’t officially support it, I think that there will be fewer cases where people will be forced to use it and told things like "come on, just use voice chat for crying out loud!" So for linkshells and what will become the Free Companies, if you can come to an agreement, I think that it would be good to consider using external software for voice chat purposes.

Summary
We will continue to make it so that our FFXIV players can play safely across all regions. Even if we can technically support it, for things that involve communication, we would have to make it official, but I think we would really need to think about this carefully so it won't be a stressful experience. So with that in mind, we will not be having official support for voice chat.

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Shio, you may wish to re-read why some of those items are listed where they are. One in particular is listed under cons, as in one of Yoshi/SE's reasons for NOT having voice chat is some players will try to require it. And if it's an official VC, they have more leverage due to it being official and people will infer suggested to use. That whole post you quoted actually hurts your argument.

SE themselves do Coil without VC.

My personal issues with VC are two things. One is people just blabbing BS during the raid, but this boils down to finding other people to play with. The other one, while the same can be done, is a bit harder because it's more widespread. People get used to it and use it as a crutch. Many get to the point where they don't notice things, easily noticed no less, unless someone else tells them via VC.

It's discrimination alright, just that it is everyday discrimination that we are all used to.

You know when you shout "looking for BRD+BLM"? You're discriminating against the other classes because they aren't able to provide you with the benefits you want.

Same as requiring voice chat.
Same as requiring experience.
Same as requiring a certain language.

There's nothing wrong with it, though. We discriminate so we can all enjoy our gaming time. It arises out of differences in circumstances and needs between players, and we shouldn't make a big deal out of it.

There's a problem though that I've noticed. People generally don't like to lead a raid, yet they expect others to just lead. It's rare to put together a party and everyone knows their job. Almost always someone expects you to explain fights or assign duties. Healers can't work it out between themselves, they have to ask you who's gonna do what. Tanks can't have a look at each other's gear and just know who's gonna main tank. They expect you to tell them what to do even if it's pretty obvious what each of them should be doing.

Then there's those who don't seem to be able to play the game themselves. They need others to remind them to move out of the fire, to switch targets, etc. And if you don't do that, you're not a good raid leader.

That is really what's making a lot of people shy away from forming their own parties. And hence the complaint that "everyone" only wants experienced people. There are plenty of people who would join an inexperienced raid. Although there truely are very few people willing to go in blind (without reading up on strategy). For most of them this is not a game, just something that gives them satisfaction (gear, growth). Sad but we have to live with it.

The whole process of advertising for and accepting pugs is an exercise in discrimination, and I personally discriminate against players who I feel aren't what we're looking for.

It's really the right of people who decided to form their own group with their own expectations, and there is nothing stopping people forming their own groups with their own expectations.

Agree with the OP 100%. For those of you having trouble. While I can't entirely speak for anyone else, I can speak for myself when I say that there were two coil groups who wanted me for their static groups(and I'm a warrior, we all know what that means). I was actually genuinely surprised. I was perfectly honest with them, and expressed how I was only able to brush up on the knowledge of the fight due to videos, but had no real-time experience. They were very understanding in the matter, and as the OP said, they wanted me in their FC and linkshell. I was more than happy to join with them, and we're close to clearing T2 now. I was fortunate to run into two groups of good people(who btw were both from the same FC).

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Originally Posted by Ryock

Agree with the OP 100%. For those of you having trouble. While I can't entirely speak for anyone else, I can speak for myself when I say that there were two coil groups who wanted me for their static groups(and I'm a warrior, we all know what that means). I was actually genuinely surprised. I was perfectly honest with them, and expressed how I was only able to brush up on the knowledge of the fight due to videos, but had no real-time experience. They were very understanding in the matter, and as the OP said, they wanted me in their FC and linkshell. I was more than happy to join with them, and we're close to clearing T2 now. I was fortunate to run into two groups of good people(who btw were both from the same FC).

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Yup, if you're good at what you do... or one of the few who are good at everything, people will find YOU.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Shio, you may wish to re-read why some of those items are listed where they are. One in particular is listed under cons, as in one of Yoshi/SE's reasons for NOT having voice chat is some players will try to require it. And if it's an official VC, they have more leverage due to it being official and people will infer suggested to use. That whole post you quoted actually hurts your argument.

SE themselves do Coil without VC.

My personal issues with VC are two things. One is people just blabbing BS during the raid, but this boils down to finding other people to play with. The other one, while the same can be done, is a bit harder because it's more widespread. People get used to it and use it as a crutch. Many get to the point where they don't notice things, easily noticed no less, unless someone else tells them via VC.

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He's right in saying VoIP can be a con in that people make it mandatory, but when you create content like this it becomes mandatory in itself, if plays can't communicate with each other quickly enough they will go to VoIP instead, which is precicely what happened with The Binding Coil, its just the way it is with instanced raids.

I don't feel it completely hurts my argument otherwise I wouldn't have bothered posting it, Yoshi was defending both sides of the fence in that he's worried people will make it mandatory which was going to happen regardless when you introduce content like this, but on the other side he mentions that the content becomes considerably easier when you're able to communicate effectively.

In FFXI and FFXIV 1.23 we didn't need VoIP, the pace was slow enough to allow us to type, that simply doesn't exist in certain parts of The Binding Coil of Bahamut which is founded upon being able to communicate with your party.

I don't know who you're doing The Binding Coil with, but the reason we did so well was because we had the ability to freely talk and enjoy ourselves and then when it came to actually getting stuff done we quietened down and used it for its intended purpose to effectively issue orders/commands.

It's not a crutch it's an aid. It's simply easier to simply say "Grab that rook again Shio" instead of having to stop to type it out. I've never noticed anyone getting lazy simply because they didn't have to type out a macro for High Voltage or Conflags.


For the most part this raid is less of a gear check and more of a communication check, at least that's what we've experience so far.



I really do hope though that for people who really cannot use VoIP are able to find or form groups in a similar circumstance, but for the majority regardless of how I present any side of the argument, people WILL want VoIP for instanced raids like this now and in the future.

Actually what he meant is that people will use the fact that it's built into the game and as such, intended to be used to try and force people to use it.

And sorry, people do use it as a crutch. Not everyone, but many do. If they don't have VC they come in with this idea that content cannot be done without it. Or that it's to much of a pain with out it. That's the crutch right there. I see it all the time. An example is double paladins doing High Voltage. They tell each other when they've used their Spirits. If they don't hear the other person say they used it, they don't use theirs on the next. Again, this doesn't happen to everyone, but I see it happen all the time. I understand the usefulness of VC, but that doesn't stop me from seeing the flaws. Those flaws are there no matter how people want to say they aren't.

Here's what I did:

/shout LFM Coil T1 first timers party come just to check it out!

Filled my party in less than 20 minutes.

Killed ADS after about an hour.

Exited... linked a Cadeuceus vid for my PT to check out.

Killed Cadeuceus after about an hour and opened me some boxes!

Only had to rep 2 players the entire time.

Tons of players are itching for that first time. You don't expect to win on your first try... neither do they! Get some noobs together, go in there and have some fun. Gain some experience!

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Originally Posted by Nura

Never watched a Video and learned by watching the rest.

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Getting into Coil without having watched a video before in a group where the rest of the members know the mechanic is one of the rudest things one can do in this game. I sincerely hope that you have a terrible experience and don't enjoy the game.

t1 is fine without voip but you can't be dumb. t2 would be a nightmare to learn without voice and even then it would be hard for healers to be doing things other than making sure people are not dead. t4/t5 good luck with no voice chat.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

t1 is fine without voip but you can't be dumb. t2 would be a nightmare to learn without voice and even then it would be hard for healers to be doing things other than making sure people are not dead. t4/t5 good luck with no voice chat.

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This is the point my friend brought up on me actually.

Learning is easier with VoIP.

Once you actually know how to do Turns 1-5 its actually quite alright (depending on your job). Our Paladin who knew Turns 1-5 like the back of his hand was able to do it without VoIP one night due to connection issues.



I should have made that clearer earlier, I was thinking of all of this from a 'learning' point of view not a veterans one.

This thread is hilarious.
I am completely flabbergasted that anyone would think it's okay to lie, much less it's the people who whine and complain about people being meanies lol

I have leveled several combat classes to 50, and just playing around on a another, I DF almost all of the content before Titan and I have never come across anyone who has left an instance when someone says they're new. Far more often, however, I'll see the "someone here is new message" ask if everyone knows how to run said dungeon and be met with silence and then watch that person die multiple times to mechanics they didn't know were coming. Most people who claim "omg game so full of elitist meanies i cant get groups!" probably had a couple people in different parties be jerks about them being new/inexperienced, but I find it hard to believe the claim of 'the vast majority are like this'

On another note, when doing coil my group took in a player who was 100% inexperienced with every turn. He didn't lie to us, he told us straight up. We explained each mechanic, and sure he messed up a few times but didn't we all at some point or another? We consistently clear 1-4, are working on t5, and have made that new guy static. Having a static with an instance like coil where the lockout is weekly, is the fastest way to get gear from it, you aren't going to find a group like that by lying your way in.

I think people need to stop living in their fear bubble that everyone is out to get them.

telling a lie means dishonesty; be it light or heavy.

I thought that's common sense... or have the world changed so much already? lol

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Originally Posted by Shioban

When we advertise we're looking for an experienced group, its usually because we're on a limited amount of time and need to get it done quickly, sometimes we simply don't have the time to teach someone how to do Turns 1-4 from scratch, it's not feasible so they get replaced so that 7 other people aren't screwed over.

If they're going to lie their way into a group who want to get it done quickly and out of the way, yes i'm gone to "trap" them into letting me know. Respect works two ways thank you very much.

I would much prefer them to tell me prior to entering so we can at least consider it "Oh well, they're playing Black Mage/White Mage/Bard, they can learn" instead of wiping us over and over and over.

I think my "trap" is justifiable if they lied to us in the first place.


SIDE NOTE: I'd like to also mention this is people flat out saying they've done it before, NOT people who have said "I watched a guide".

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Says you don't have time to explain, want a "quick run" yet don't care wiping five times on ADS so you can "trigger voice program laugher" and, only then, start trying to find a replacement.

What am I supposed to respond to you?

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Originally Posted by Umero

telling a lie means dishonesty; be it light or heavy.

I thought that's common sense... or have the world changed so much already? lol

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Because MMORPG players are known for their honesty, lealty, fair playing and friendliness.

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Originally Posted by Umero

telling a lie means dishonesty; be it light or heavy.

I thought that's common sense... or have the world changed so much already? lol

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Unfortunately you have to lie at those situations or you will be the liability or kicked mid-way when they read the first 3 words ^^

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Originally Posted by Vindicate

Unfortunately you have to lie at those situations or you will be the liability or kicked mid-way when they read the first 3 words ^^

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No, by lying, you're STILL a liability, and liable to cause even more drama.

OR you can just do the first tries on bosses and dont screw up or learn quick and nobody would ever find out!

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Because MMORPG players are known for their honesty, lealty, fair playing and friendliness.

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In my world, yes. Most of the people I played with on a regular basis in MMO's (statics, guilds, etc.), met in-game or from RL, were quite honest, rather fair-play (there's the occasional exploit, it's true) and always friendly (I don't play with those that aren't). We actually set "fair-play" as a primary value of my FC, when we created it back in June, and everyone feels good about that. Which is why, very sincerely, I am appalled at the kind of community I found here. It's at the LoL-CoD-DOTA level—and no I don't mean that as a compliment. I always thought these games had worse communities because skill-based games are bound to be more 'cocky' than gear/grind based ones… guess I was awfully wrong about that.

Here's a good sum-up of what is "fair-play" in sports; I don't see why we couldn't, or shouldn't, support these values in games.

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What is fair play?
Fair play is a complex notion that comprises and embodies a number of values that are fundamental not only to sport but also to everyday life.
Respect, friendship, team spirit, fair competition, sport without doping, respect for written and unwritten rules such as equality, integrity, solidarity, tolerance, care, excellence and joy, are the building blocks of fair play that can be experienced and learnt both on and off the field.

Respect
For every athlete, playing by the written rules is mandatory. Respecting the unwritten ones is a must. Fair play requires unconditional respect for opponents, fellow players, referees and fans.

Friendship
Rivalry on the field does not exclude friendship. On the contrary. Friendship could grow from noble rivalries.

Team spirit
Individuals can be strong on their own but they are much stronger in a team. Victory achieved alone can be sweet but there is nothing sweeter than sharing that moment with your team.

Fair competition
To enjoy the fruits of success it is not enough to win. Triumph must be scored by absolutely fair means and by honest and just play.

Sport without doping
Someone who takes drugs cheats. Someone who cheats ruins the game. Someone who ruins the game cannot be played with.

Equality
Competing on equal terms is essential in sport. Otherwise performance cannot be measured properly.

Integrity
Being honest and having strong moral principles are essential to fair play. Practicing sport within a sound ethical framework is vitally important if you aim to be a true champion.

Solidarity
It is important to support each other and share feelings, aims and dreams. Mutual support brings mutual success on and off the field.

Tolerance
The willingness to accept behaviour or decisions you may not agree with develops your self-control. Ultimately that could be the deciding factor when it comes to winning or losing.

Care
True champions care about each other as they are well aware they could not be where they are without being cared for by others.

Excellence
Sport engages us in a collective effort to pursue human excellence.

Joy
Baron Pierre de Coubertin, the father of the modern Olympic Games said: ’The important thing in life is not the triumph, but the fight; the essential thing is not to have won, but to have fought well.’ Competition can be severe but you should always first look for joy when practicing any sports. You should never forget about the play even in the heat of the fight.
Without fairness and trustworthiness the established order of our society is at risk. If we do not play by the rules, we ruin the spirit of the game and it is impossible to play with destroyers of the game.
Fair play, which is an essential and central part of successful involvement, promotion and development in both sport and life, can teach people tolerance and respect for others. It allows them to integrate into society and create a sense of teamwork. Fair play in sport is capable of giving hope, pride and identity, and it is able to unite where nationalities, politics, religions and cultures often divide.
Cooperation in the spirit of fair play delivers even greater results than pure gamesmanship in all walks of life. It plays a key role, the role of a catalyst in today’s society as a means of improving quality of life and human well-being. […] Read more where that came from…

Source: International Fair Play Committee

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EDIT: Hell I should make a thread about that, many people here really need to read that and get a hold of themselves.

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Originally Posted by Vindicate

OR you can just do the first tries on bosses and dont screw up or learn quick and nobody would ever find out!

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Good players will notice. I see it all the time in DF in just about any instance.

There are far less tolerant people towards new players for dungeons and far more players with a bad attitudes from my experience, which is what brings about this even more retarded mindset of lying to get things done. Blame the community.

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Originally Posted by Hanemakikaze

There are far less tolerant people towards new players for dungeons and far more players with a bad attitudes from my experience, which is what brings about this even more retarded mindset of lying to get things done. Blame the community.

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Regardless of people being that way, which I do disagree with of course, the person lying is at fault, always.

Alcyon/ispano - just throwing it out there, but have either of you ever joined a competitive sports team or worked in sales/retail/wall street?

Want to know if troll or just naive.

I don't do sports, but I have done Sales/Retail. And I despised every minute of it. And in any case, why?

Ok... So you kinda know that the real world doesn't work as clean as we all want it to. Why are you arguing that people should never lie again?

Naive troll confirmed?

join an fc.

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Originally Posted by HoroBoro

Alcyon/ispano - just throwing it out there, but have either of you ever joined a competitive sports team or worked in sales/retail/wall street?

Want to know if troll or just naive.

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I did sports when I was younger, I lived in the Carribeans and did some sailing regatta (from windsurf to much larger boats with ~10 crew). Never won any though, eternal second :) A bit of skiing in France, too, though I didn't go really far. Sports team in school (basket), and extra (tennis, judo), didn't go far either. Always liked competition though.

As for sales, yup, a few years ago; my longest experience was as floor manager at Esprit (clothing brand). We made a point to be honest with customers (corporate culture there) as in the long run it would make them come back much more than if we sold them the wrong product for their taste/body shape (especially female pants, gosh is it hard to find the right pair of pants!), exchanging damaged products without a second thought, no questions asked, etc.

And I like to think I'm not naive, I'm a trained sociologist with a few psychology/economy courses on the side, you know. Today my main field of work is in politics—now that is a field in which fair-play just doesn't exist.

It's just that the world and its people are nowhere near as bad as some of you would like to think. This line of thinking is often a way to justify one's own behaviour, but I'm sorry, it just doesn't hold water, aside from some fields of work as I mentioned. I'd wager Wall Street and finance, where 25% of workers claim that "you have to be dishonest to make a living", would be quite comparable. Which might be the whole problem of politics and finance to begin with, don't you think? Do we really want that in our games?! Is it even remotely justifiable, let alone desirable?… But I digress, don't I.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoroBoro

Ok... So you kinda know that the real world doesn't work as clean as we all want it to. Why are you arguing that people should never lie again?

Naive troll confirmed?

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If I had to say only one thing: lying isn't a way to form truthful and lasting relationships. And MMO's are all about the social. If you can't form lasting relationships in such a game, you'll be miserably alone. And that's the worst way to enjoy such games, as all team-based games and sports, for that matter. You lie when you think it gives you an immediate benefit, but it's a narrow-minded perspective that won't get you far, in games, or in life (most of the time) for that matter. It's not even about morals, it's about being able to actually connect with people. But this generation seems to see others as consumable products, and that might be a problem we're just barely touching here in games.

Food for thought: https://www.ted.com/talks/sherry_tur..._together.html

And a quote from Gandhi: “Be the change you want to see in the world.”

I blame the forums.

All anyone has to do is spend a little bit of time here and they will become convinced that the community is full of jerks. Every D.F. run involves racial slurs tossed at someone, nobody tolerates new people even though they were once new etc.. Hell, I'm sure I've contributed to this myself; though recent events in the realm we call the real world have made me take a pause..

Anyway..

Be honest people. If someone is shouting for an experienced player, don't say you are if that isn't the truth. They have a specific goal in mind, and lying to get in the group won't work out well for anyone involved. Go for the groups where the shout is "We're going for broke and wanna learn!". I've seen these on my servers, and participated in a couple. They can be a hoot. Start your own group, all you need to do is be all "Looking for Members.. Blah Blah.. 1/8".. It'll take off.

And I'm not saying that the majority of the world is bad. I'm just saying that we don't understand each others' circumstances which leads to grief and loss.

I mean seriously, you're expecting online gamers to hold up to the spirit of fair play, when, Lance Armstrong, a guy who went though the hell that is cancer couldn't do it?

Don't you think you're expecting a bit much? Don't you think it's a bit biased towards the haves as opposed to the have-nots?

Sometimes you troll unintentionally. I do it all the time.

Also I'm not saying lying is good or some absurd generalization like that. When you are in a relationship with others, you need to keep the lies at a minimum. That's how you build trust. Lying is a tool that you use. It's inherently dangerous to the well being of others (as well as yourself) and you should use it as only a tool of last resort but it is not inherently evil.

There are things that you can never, ever say or admit. For example like in Israel, none of the Jewish people there can ever say: Oh hay guyz - we kicked out the Muslims that were here and now we can't give them the land back because we already settled here. If they admit that, Israel will cease to exist as a nation. Imagine Israel as a Muslim majority state. Will make the current situation seem like a cakewalk.

Yet that's the power the truth has. Only those in a position of power can enjoy it.

And you know Gandhi was a big fan of the caste system that is the source of all of India's problems currently right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoroBoro

Ok... So you kinda know that the real world doesn't work as clean as we all want it to. Why are you arguing that people should never lie again?

Naive troll confirmed?

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Firstly, i'm no troll. Secondly, people here are trying to validate people lying in this thread, and in others. Then they say the blame is on the rude and whatnot people in DF and such. Lying is still on you. It's still your fault. Regardless of what someone else has said or done. It's their fault for being abusive, it's NOT their fault that you use it as an excuse to lie.

I know how bad the world can be. I also know that people who blame their shortcomings on others are just as bad.