Why no speculation on Jobs for crafting classes?

You need demand before you make supply.

What people find unappealing in FFXIV imo is mostly related to DoW and DoM and the bland battle system. DoH and DoL seem implemented well enough, they're fun to play, in my experience, and seem to have been more thought out than most crafting/gathering systems you see in other MMORPGs. The Job System is going to be built on top of the existing Class System and cater to those who have been craving for more class differentiation, and strategy in combat. DoH don't have this issue, so at least for now, I don't see them fixing something that isn't broken, by most people's standards.

Though group crafting and the making of actual visible changes in the world, be it ships, airships, infrastructures or any kind of mechanized mount, maybe even something like an instanced besiege sort of things where crafters had to fix damage made by monsters while DoW and DoM fought them off would be a great idea to implement in my book, I would totally be on board with it.

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Originally Posted by Mack

Same way they did in FFXI? dumb response is dumb. Crafters in FFXI were the richest of players, that's because people still bought their stuff. FFXIV has a few untradeable items and crafters are useless now?

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Most of the people in FF11 made money from items that were consumable such as food, arrows, bullets, ninja tools etc, many of which aren't applicable in FFXIV.

Many made their money from HNM drops and the rest made money through exploits and bad economy.

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I find crafting to be the most enjoyable and personally rewarding activity in the game. Just goes to show how we are all different.

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Doesn't say much about the game does it :P

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I find crafting to be the most enjoyable and personally rewarding activity in the game. Just goes to show how we are all different. :D

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Doesn't say much about the game does it :P

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Touché, Pussy Cat!

Honestly, my character's primary motivation is crafting. He really only goes out to fight in order to support his crafting and figure out all this Echo nonsense. As a result he does things "Crafts First" in Eorzea. He makes the Bronze Labrys +1 first, THEN goes out hunting for crystals or whatnot.

Then how about the inverse of the combats class/job ideas. Make multiple crafts into one job. So if the possibility of group crafting comes about in the future and something like a ship(that would make sense to involve almost every craft) that you wouldn't need a relatively large group of high level crafters, which would be seemingly difficult to put together. If just a couple people had 2 or 3 crafts under one job they could take care of it in a much simpler fashion. Idk, I just had and idea and wondered what everyones thoughts were. I wasn't voicing my dissatisfaction and asking for something to be implemented. Don't get your undies all up in a bunch. Haha

Most people did not make money in FFXI through consumables, some did, but that was really chump change compared to other large sellables like Haubergeon +1 which sold for around a 4million profit, or a HQ elemental staff which use to sell for 1.2-1.8million profit. Where a HQ of food/Ammo would sell for a 10-20k profit usually although a bit faster. In all crafts NQ stuff was sold for a loss.

FFXI had rare/ex drops that made crafting gear worthless yes, but they where hard as crap to get... time wise. Such as that 4million gil body was worthless compared to a Adaberk from Nid. All Weapons where worthless compared to relics, except HQ staffs, half the AF outclasses all crafted gear.

FFXI had 4 things that kept crafting highly profitable through 8yrs
1) The Time constraints of getting the top rare/ex gear stopped alot of people from getting it so they relyed on the HQ crafed gear.
2) Crafting was harder to level... in FFXIV it is time consuming but anyone can do it, in XI it costed 100s of millions of gil in some cases to level it which prevented alot of people from investing in it. (less crafters = more profitable)
3) The crafting materials where rare, Carpenter for example. IN XIV you can get up to 5 logs in 1 logging attempt if you are lucky, in XI you would only get 1. So materials are coming in at a much much faster rate making it easy to level up.
4) Gear sets made each class have up to 3 sets of armor to optimize their job

Now changing all 4 made ffxiv a ton more casual than XI, but none the less it will devalue crafting in the end, alot.

If FFXIV continues to have rare/ex drops that are easy to get, then yes crafting will become completely worthless really fast, since the majority will have the non-trade better gear.

They either need to make all the gear much much harder to get, or make it like Tanaka did where NMS drop alot of craftable gear if they are going to keep crafting profitable.

Nobody wants a Chemist class but me?

Ok...

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

Nobody wants a Chemist class but me?

Ok...

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aka alchemist?

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Originally Posted by Verecund

aka alchemist?

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Um, no. More along the lines of Rikku's overdrive from FFX.

Think he means like a class that can throw potions and what not at people during battle, I think it would be expensive :O

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If FFXIV continues to have rare/ex drops that are easy to get, then yes crafting will become completely worthless really fast, since the majority will have the non-trade better gear.

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Which was my point from the beginning.

I actually prefer the idea of easy untradeable loot similar to WoW.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

Nobody wants a Chemist class but me?

Ok...

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No I totally do, it would be a pretty cool class. Rikku was actually one of my favorite characters from FFX. The gist of it would be that they could make items actually useful as well as possibly using them AoE. They could be a pretty versatile class depending on what items/combos they could use. It would be nice to have them considering most items now (like potions) are pretty useless.

Being able to consume multiple Ethers to have an AoE Ether with a greater effect could be a lifesaver in a pinch. At that point all we'd need are offensive items, though maybe they could make better use of some throwing weapons (added effects?). Of course they'd likely be the most expensive class as they would be heavily item based.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

No I totally do, it would be a pretty cool class. Rikku was actually one of my favorite characters from FFX. The gist of it would be that they could make items actually useful as well as possibly using them AoE. They could be a pretty versatile class depending on what items/combos they could use. It would be nice to have them considering most items now (like potions) are pretty useless.

Being able to consume multiple Ethers to have an AoE Ether with a greater effect could be a lifesaver in a pinch. At that point all we'd need are offensive items, though maybe they could make better use of some throwing weapons (added effects?). Of course they'd likely be the most expensive class as they would be heavily item based.

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Something tells me then that if they make some kind of buffing class, that chemist might be a job specialization for it, in which you can mix and match items just like that to produce different types of effects. In fact, maybe I'm crazy, but I vaguely remember Tanaka or Komoto making a statement saying how they were thinking of that type of crafting class integration. Of course I don't remember the source, but maybe someone else does.

Actually, what Sorel is talking about is how I thought of this once.

I doubt it will happen (like most of you) but a "weaver" is not a sail maker, though the skills are similar.
You could specialize in group activities (like making a ship) and such.

Considering Jobs & Abilities will be quested, it would not be all that unreasonable that if a Weaver wants to make sails (better/faster/stronger) they could take a Job Quest to specialize and quest for some sail making specific abilities.

I think it's a stretch, because "Job" system is supposed to bring back some Final Fantasy flare (like White Mage, Thief & Monk) and there was no such "traditional Job" for "weaver" in the past. Still, it could be done and done well and fun for Crafters to collect more skills and specializations for "group crafting."

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Originally Posted by Arcell

No I totally do, it would be a pretty cool class. Rikku was actually one of my favorite characters from FFX. The gist of it would be that they could make items actually useful as well as possibly using them AoE. They could be a pretty versatile class depending on what items/combos they could use. It would be nice to have them considering most items now (like potions) are pretty useless.

Being able to consume multiple Ethers to have an AoE Ether with a greater effect could be a lifesaver in a pinch. At that point all we'd need are offensive items, though maybe they could make better use of some throwing weapons (added effects?). Of course they'd likely be the most expensive class as they would be heavily item based.

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Well they'd probably use base materials (like elytrons and ores) and then mix them into a battle item.

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Originally Posted by Shai

Actually, what Sorel is talking about is how I thought of this once.

I doubt it will happen (like most of you) but a "weaver" is not a sail maker, though the skills are similar.
You could specialize in group activities (like making a ship) and such.

Considering Jobs & Abilities will be quested, it would not be all that unreasonable that if a Weaver wants to make sails (better/faster/stronger) they could take a Job Quest to specialize and quest for some sail making specific abilities.

I think it's a stretch, because "Job" system is supposed to bring back some Final Fantasy flare (like White Mage, Thief & Monk) and there was no such "traditional Job" for "weaver" in the past. Still, it could be done and done well and fun for Crafters to collect more skills and specializations for "group crafting."

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I think that was the idea of Player Companies.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

I think that was the idea of Player Companies.

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I think so too but it's not exclusive from the Job idea.

As I said, I doubt it the Job system will extend to DoH & L but it could - and it could be real fun, too.

this thread and OP should stop smoking just saying lol

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Originally Posted by Dragon

The crafting classes are as specialized as you can get.

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I found a few similar sentiments throughout this thread, but I am picking this one out as representative.

I must respectfully disagree that crafting classes are as specialized as you can get. I will take weaving for my example. If I spin 3,000,000 spools of yarn, suddenly I am an expert at sewing hats, gloves, robes, pants, etc, as well as weaving cloth.

A clear direction for specialization is to follow the skill books already available to the various crafting classes.

Possible jobs (specializations) for crafting classes include:
Hatmaking
Glovemaking
Various forms of Tailoring
Weaving
Spinning
etc, etc.

I don't know that such job specializations should take the same form as combat job specializations - there are different goals and requirements for the different classes.

My personal preference would be for the branching specialization scheme that was proposed (by a group of players) for combat.

Again, taking weaving as an example. Weaving is a generic skill from ranks 1 to 50, allowing you to make all weaving goods equally as well. However, from ranks 51 to 70, say, the generic weaving skill is no longer available. Instead, one could rank the spinning specialization, the weaving specialization, the hat-making specialization, the fletching specialization, etc. Advancement in one specialization would not preclude advancing in another, but each would have to be ranked up separately. Another branching point could potentially happen from 71 to 90, and then from 91 to 100 -- all depending on how the developers plan to raise the rank cap.

Comments? Critiques? Suggestions? Flames? :D

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Originally Posted by Amineri

I found a few similar sentiments throughout this thread, but I am picking this one out as representative.

I must respectfully disagree that crafting classes are as specialized as you can get. I will take weaving for my example. If I spin 3,000,000 spools of yarn, suddenly I am an expert at sewing hats, gloves, robes, pants, etc, as well as weaving cloth.

A clear direction for specialization is to follow the skill books already available to the various crafting classes.

Possible jobs (specializations) for crafting classes include:
Hatmaking
Glovemaking
Various forms of Tailoring
Weaving
Spinning
etc, etc.

I don't know that such job specializations should take the same form as combat job specializations - there are different goals and requirements for the different classes.

My personal preference would be for the branching specialization scheme that was proposed (by a group of players) for combat.

Again, taking weaving as an example. Weaving is a generic skill from ranks 1 to 50, allowing you to make all weaving goods equally as well. However, from ranks 51 to 70, say, the generic weaving skill is no longer available. Instead, one could rank the spinning specialization, the weaving specialization, the hat-making specialization, the fletching specialization, etc. Advancement in one specialization would not preclude advancing in another, but each would have to be ranked up separately. Another branching point could potentially happen from 71 to 90, and then from 91 to 100 -- all depending on how the developers plan to raise the rank cap.

Comments? Critiques? Suggestions? Flames? :D

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Because grinding a craft isn't painful enough already.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

I found a few similar sentiments throughout this thread, but I am picking this one out as representative.

I must respectfully disagree that crafting classes are as specialized as you can get. I will take weaving for my example. If I spin 3,000,000 spools of yarn, suddenly I am an expert at sewing hats, gloves, robes, pants, etc, as well as weaving cloth.

A clear direction for specialization is to follow the skill books already available to the various crafting classes.

Possible jobs (specializations) for crafting classes include:
Hatmaking
Glovemaking
Various forms of Tailoring
Weaving
Spinning
etc, etc.

I don't know that such job specializations should take the same form as combat job specializations - there are different goals and requirements for the different classes.

My personal preference would be for the branching specialization scheme that was proposed (by a group of players) for combat.

Again, taking weaving as an example. Weaving is a generic skill from ranks 1 to 50, allowing you to make all weaving goods equally as well. However, from ranks 51 to 70, say, the generic weaving skill is no longer available. Instead, one could rank the spinning specialization, the weaving specialization, the hat-making specialization, the fletching specialization, etc. Advancement in one specialization would not preclude advancing in another, but each would have to be ranked up separately. Another branching point could potentially happen from 71 to 90, and then from 91 to 100 -- all depending on how the developers plan to raise the rank cap.

Comments? Critiques? Suggestions? Flames? :D

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Your idea in general I like but common things already exist in the game as training manuals, like Cobbling & Sheeting. The Job system (as described) is for party play in battle, so it's not unreasonable to think that it would be for group play as crafting, also - to make larger things, buildings, ships, mog houses, giant cakes(?), etc. Those things could use specialized skill sets that draw on multiple weavers or blacksmiths doing different tasks.

Well, anyway, that's what I think. You're talking about some things that are already adapted into training manuals.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

Because grinding a craft isn't painful enough already.

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I 100% agree. Hence my solution provides AT LEAST 10 times the pain!

Ah, I love sarcasm. <3

Seriously, I agree that crafting is a fairly painful grind. But I think the solution to that is to make the crafting experience more fun, rather than simply allowing people to max out all craft classes in short order.

Allowing specialization of crafting jobs does a couple of things:
1) Allows a player with less time to at least PARTICIPATE in the crafting economy. By going "depth-first", and focussing upon one specialization, such a player can still achieve mastery.
2) Prevents players from too quickly mastering ALL crafts. I saw that happen in Fallen Earth, and it really wrecked the economy. Once all players can make all items, the drive to exchange goods and items really falls off.

Making crafting more enjoyable should be a separate task, imho. Specifically, after Matsui-san finishes (enough) with the battle system changes to have some free time, I'd like to see the battle team turn its collective eye to improving the crafting / gathering play experience. You can see my appeal here : http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post152005

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Originally Posted by Shai

Your idea in general I like but common things already exist in the game as training manuals, like Cobbling & Sheeting. The Job system (as described) is for party play in battle, so it's not unreasonable to think that it would be for group play as crafting, also - to make larger things, buildings, ships, mog houses, giant cakes(?), etc. Those things could use specialized skill sets that draw on multiple weavers or blacksmiths doing different tasks.

Well, anyway, that's what I think. You're talking about some things that are already adapted into training manuals.

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Well, the job system for combat is being designed to enhance party play. Since there is no party play for crafting (as of yet), it doesn't seem in order. However, I would happily (gleefully, even) change my stance if party-play for crafting and gathering were introduced, in which case jobs to take on specific roles in party crafting / gathering could be a fantastic addition!

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Originally Posted by Amineri

Well, the job system for combat is being designed to enhance party play. Since there is no party play for crafting (as of yet), it doesn't seem in order. However, I would happily (gleefully, even) change my stance if party-play for crafting and gathering were introduced, in which case jobs to take on specific roles in party crafting / gathering could be a fantastic addition!

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Well they've said it's going to be introduced even after Yoshida took over.
That's what I'm talking about personally.

That a Job system overlay would work nicely hand-in-hand with large group-crafting projects. Assuming these projects are actually as big as I think and not something quick and simple. I guess time will tell. I think it's a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

I 100% agree. Hence my solution provides AT LEAST 10 times the pain!

Ah, I love sarcasm. <3

Seriously, I agree that crafting is a fairly painful grind. But I think the solution to that is to make the crafting experience more fun, rather than simply allowing people to max out all craft classes in short order.

Allowing specialization of crafting jobs does a couple of things:
1) Allows a player with less time to at least PARTICIPATE in the crafting economy. By going "depth-first", and focussing upon one specialization, such a player can still achieve mastery.
2) Prevents players from too quickly mastering ALL crafts. I saw that happen in Fallen Earth, and it really wrecked the economy. Once all players can make all items, the drive to exchange goods and items really falls off.

Making crafting more enjoyable should be a separate task, imho. Specifically, after Matsui-san finishes (enough) with the battle system changes to have some free time, I'd like to see the battle team turn its collective eye to improving the crafting / gathering play experience. You can see my appeal here : http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post152005

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They probably have different teams for battle than for crafting/gathering, as they work verrrrryyy differently, but they do have some commonground (such as with some of the NM drops -- if the drop is too common and it is a craftable item, it pretty much makes it worthless to craft that item at all).

As for the "DoH Jobs," I think they should wait until the player companies start because it seems like specialized jobs like painting (ITHASTOBEWEAVERBECAUSECANVAS) pictures, cobbling houses (maybe a miner? Not sure), building ships (Weavers, Carpenters, Blacksmiths, Armorers), etc. work mostly as part of a larger whole -- just making a sail doesn't really do anything if there's no ship, and you can't really build a ship without sails, nails, or steel reinforcement (or cannons etc).

Regardless I don't think a job specialized for hat crafting would work very well unless they drastically improved SP rates for crafting and also added a ton of variety to crafted items (like 5 different models per hat type -- yay sliders previewed in the "Making of Eorzea!")

And....I still have my fingers triple crossed (it's one after double...odds are trustworthy, right?) for a Chemist battle job that is learned from a DoH class...

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

They probably have different teams for battle than for crafting/gathering, as they work verrrrryyy differently, but they do have some commonground (such as with some of the NM drops -- if the drop is too common and it is a craftable item, it pretty much makes it worthless to craft that item at all).

As for the "DoH Jobs," I think they should wait until the player companies start because it seems like specialized jobs like painting (ITHASTOBEWEAVERBECAUSECANVAS) pictures, cobbling houses (maybe a miner? Not sure), building ships (Weavers, Carpenters, Blacksmiths, Armorers), etc. work mostly as part of a larger whole -- just making a sail doesn't really do anything if there's no ship, and you can't really build a ship without sails, nails, or steel reinforcement (or cannons etc).

Regardless I don't think a job specialized for hat crafting would work very well unless they drastically improved SP rates for crafting and also added a ton of variety to crafted items (like 5 different models per hat type -- yay sliders previewed in the "Making of Eorzea!")

And....I still have my fingers triple crossed (it's one after double...odds are trustworthy, right?) for a Chemist battle job that is learned from a DoH class...

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Agree 200% that the battle system is different from the craft / gather system, and that they have different teams working on them. However, there are fewer good previous examples of fun and engaging crafting / gathering systems to build from.

My suggestion is to have Matsui-san and some of the battle system team spend part of their time working WITH the craft / gather system team(s) to inject ideas into how to improve craft / gather gameplay.

It desperately needs something more than the same solo mini-game from rank 1 to 50, identical for all DoH classes. If the craft / gather mechanics became a little more "combat-like", I think that would be good, as long as they are enjoyable.

WARNING! MATH BELOW. THOSE ALLERGIC SHOULD SKIP TO END

As to specializing the crafting classes, the math works out. SP/XP curves are generally at least quadratic -- in FFXIV they seem to be somewhere around a 3rd or 4th degree polynomial. This means that the majority of the total SP lies at the end. E.g. it takes as much SP to go from rank 41 to 50 as it did to go from 1 to 41. I expect that this will stay the same. So, what really matters is the branching factor.

We have 8 crafts currently. Suppose each branches by 3 at rank 51, branches again by 3 at rank 71, and again by 3 at rank 91. This means that each original craft would have 27 specialty branches by rank 99. Since the majority of the SP required is from 91 to 99, this means that it would take on the order of 27 times as long to max out all 27 specialties compared to a single linear craft.

THOSE ALLERGIC TO MATH CAN JUST READ THE PART BELOW

If a single specialty in a single craft were reduced to 2 months to max, then to max all 27 would take 54 months ... which is 4.5 years. To max out all 8 crafts would take a staggering 36 years.

So, a single maxed out specialty in 2 months, yet effectively impossible to max out all crafts.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I disagree.

Shipwright (boats). Engineer (machina). Architect (buildings).

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That's making them more generalized than specialized.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I disagree.

Shipwright (boats). Engineer (machina). Architect (buildings).

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Originally Posted by Dragon

That's making them more generalized than specialized.

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I guess it depends on your point of view.

Carpenters deal with anything made of wood. That's pretty darn general. Shipwrights use wood to build ships. So they need to have some skill as a Carpenter.

But if you ask a Shipwright Job to make a bundle of arrows, he may be able to pull it off, but it may take him twice as long using up twice the amount of materials ... and it certainly won't be HQ.

The way I see it (i.e. my opinion), Crafting Training like Fletchery, Bonecarving, and Nailcasting are all designed to help the crafter make physically small things. Things that are no larger than a person. These are things that a solo crafter can handle.

Crafting Jobs should be designed to help the crafter craft BIG things. Things larger than a person. And things that require more than one crafter to make. Boats, buildings, airships, roads, tunnels, seige engines, etc, could all have Jobs that help construct them.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I guess it depends on your point of view.

Carpenters deal with anything made of wood. That's pretty darn general. Shipwrights use wood to build ships. So they need to have some skill as a Carpenter.

But if you ask a Shipwright Job to make a bundle of arrows, he may be able to pull it off, but it may take him twice as long using up twice the amount of materials ... and it certainly won't be HQ.

The way I see it (i.e. my opinion), Crafting Training like Fletchery, Bonecarving, and Nailcasting are all designed to help the crafter make physically small things. Things that are no larger than a person. These are things that a solo crafter can handle.

Crafting Jobs should be designed to help the crafter craft BIG things. Things larger than a person. And things that require more than one crafter to make. Boats, buildings, airships, roads, tunnels, seige engines, etc, could all have Jobs that help construct them.

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Have you ever been to a doctor?

See you have your general doctor that assesses how you're doing, then you have your specialized doctors that tell you the specifics (there's a doctor position for almost every single organ inside the human body, the most specialized such as a heart doctor or a head doctor, they're specialized because they are doctors of something specific, that they don't work any other part; same thing here).

I'm not disagreeing with the sentiments of more crafting classes as I am about your terminology.

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Originally Posted by Dragon

Have you ever been to a doctor?

See you have your general doctor that assesses how you're doing, then you have your specialized doctors that tell you the specifics (there's a doctor position for almost every single organ inside the human body, the most specialized such as a heart doctor or a head doctor, they're specialized because they are doctors of something specific, that they don't work any other part; same thing here).

I'm not disagreeing with the sentiments of more crafting classes as I am about your terminology.

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Except doctors are all trained in the basics of their craft. Every doctor had to disect a dead body. Every doctor had to learn how to deliver a baby, etc. They may have specialized afterwards, but they are still capable of performing their basic duties.

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Originally Posted by Keith_Dragoon

Because the new jobs are meant to add roles for partying to existing classes. I don't think people craft in parties so it Probly will never happen although a group crafting one beastly item would be cool.

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This could be implemented as a guild crafting add-on in order to enable guilds to create ships/air-ships for the guild. Then these ships could be used to access higher level dungeons/islands.