Whats with the zerg / speed run mentality?

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

You don't need Darklight to do Ifrit and Garuda.

... you don't even have to farm Garuda if you've got your Ifrit weapon.

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Ow, you're absolutely right. I am posting with my smartphone (which is quite a hassle, but I don't carry token around 24/7 (^_^ ) ). That particular fragment was missing parentheses. This will make more sense:
"farm AK gear (and gather tomes for Darklight) for primal weapon farming"

Darklight is not needed for both Ifrit or Garuda, but it help with Titan and you need to beat Titan at least once in order to get your Relic weapon. Just to be clear on this. The gear progression I mentioned earlier was meant as "guideline", not a requirement.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

oh... what's wrong? pre-made parties are for people who prepared themselves enough, they're forming their own parties so they have all the right to set the standard.

Duty Finder is for people who want to learn about it, new to it, doing it for storyline, or searching for gear upgrades.

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I don't have a problem with that logic. The reason I said what I said is because of that kind of attitude that just stinks up a community. You can easily convey the same idea without being a jerk about it. Other than that, I agree, if people are making a premade and want to speed-run more power to them.

Though, it's kind of the parties fault that they didn't realize the tank was undergeared for a speed-run before the run actually started.

Well i rly don't care about the gear that a player has. I have had great tanks with job gear in AK and i have had the worse relic tanks possible. Nowdays so many bad players have relic its ridiculous. First i see how a player plays, then judge. Or full DL ppl - after all the fate grinding where u spam 1-2 skills ppl rly don't know how to play their chars.

Now all the massive gear requirements are crazy. just takes the fun out of the game. now running AK you have 0 risk. i do understand that it is a farming dung, but you can still do it in a civilized and fun way.

I think the best par was the other day when i saw an ifrit party looking for near full DL ppl... like what?! i was doing it in my job gear and dung jewelry.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

oh... what's wrong? pre-made parties are for people who prepared themselves enough, they're forming their own parties so they have all the right to set the standard.

Duty Finder is for people who want to learn about it, new to it, doing it for storyline, or searching for gear upgrades.

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The instant a premade has a pug, it's no longer a premade.


As an example : two dps friends, grouping together, is not a premade. It's 2 morons looking for a daycare center.

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Originally Posted by Rawry

There were no "speed runs" in wow... :/

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That's because post-WotLK, pretty much everything is a speed run.

On topic though...it was their own fault. If you plan to do a speed run, you should be advertising them as such.

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Originally Posted by Thagyr

I am a relic tank, but I personally prefer to go into DF to do runs. Chances are I'll meet some new or gearing 50s that I can take my time with. I have all week to cap out on mythology, and if I do that in a single day then there isn't much else to do for the rest of the week.

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omg, you have far too much sense to be posting on these forums!

:p

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Originally Posted by Dyrstahl

I guess this is part of the beauty of being a tank.

I'm not quite there at 50 yet but right now I'm imagining it kinda like this:

DPS: Oh great... low hp tank noob, plz just leave
Me: You're a mere DPS so whaeva ya know whaddaiymean.
Me: I got instant queue time and I'm gonna do this dungeon a lot so don't be hatin'
Me: As the wise philosophers of Bodybuilding.com would say: u mirin' brah?


Well, at least that's how I want to handle the filthy DPS peasants but I haven't quite figured out what to say if it's a healer.

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Oh, look, another tank with a superiority complex. I'm sure you're going to be winning over all the e-cat ladies.
Being a desirable role does not give you a free pass on being a hyperbad.

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Originally Posted by LordSideKicks

Erm CM till u got a few darklight before Ak or Wp. That is what I did.

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Why would you need ilvl 70 gear for an ilvl 55 and 60 dungeon?
Or, you know, you could start in WP, get WP gear, and move up to AK like how it was meant to be. I'm in three pieces of af2, just about full DL accessories and I never farmed CM one single time for tomes.

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Originally Posted by Dyrstahl

Well, at least that's how I want to handle the filthy DPS peasants but I haven't quite figured out what to say if it's a healer.

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With that attitude, my money's on "Rez plz?"

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Originally Posted by Thagyr

I am a relic tank, but I personally prefer to go into DF to do runs. Chances are I'll meet some new or gearing 50s that I can take my time with. I have all week to cap out on mythology, and if I do that in a single day then there isn't much else to do for the rest of the week.

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THIS.

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

It was significantly worse..

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Hmm..no it was far from significantly worse - far from it. In XI the only "general" elitism was in regards to people not doing what's expected em, i.e "Haste Set", "TP set", "WS set", "Nuke Set", "HMP Set", "Cure Set" and so on and the people who refused to have sets were the ones that ended up stating FFXI has a "horrible community". Here, it's almost no choice but to conform or never get to do anything as the OP is basically getting at.

In XI, people were smart enough to realize you won't immediately have everything after you hit max level (75 for argument sake), because it will take time to get geared and to get your merits and so on so forth - People realized that. In XIV though, a lot of people seem to feel you should have a relic+1. full DL or Myth gear and capable of speed running everything instantly at 50.

It's simply not possible and if people think so that means this game is pulling in no new people and it's only the same group of people playing :) You can say "don't join premade", yet we all know people are trolling DF and the "rejects" are all that's left because they can't join groups on their servers just because they're new.

Any fresh 50s on Exodus server that wanna learn WP or Ak hit me up. I was nervous at first but had some people to help me gear up. I will do the same. If you see me on shoot me a tell.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Hmm..no it was far from significantly worse - far from it. In XI the only "general" elitism was in regards to people not doing what's expected em, i.e "Haste Set", "TP set", "WS set", "Nuke Set", "HMP Set", "Cure Set" and so on and the people who refused to have sets were the ones that ended up stating FFXI has a "horrible community". Here, it's almost no choice but to conform or never get to do anything as the OP is basically getting at.

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Back in the day, many jobs were outright snubbed in FFXI. And for those that weren't, if you didn't have a full range of subjobs (RDM? No /DRK for Chainspell Stun?!?) you were frowned upon in certain situations.
Same with certain stats (capped Debuffing/Healing/Elemental Magic, for example). I DO NOT miss skillup parties in the slightest.

And Gear progression/expectation was just as bad if not worse - because instead of just running an easily-completable dungeon for tokens to swap for the exact item of gear you were lacking, you were expected to camp a NM for months for a 1% drop chance or spend millions of gil (Peacock Charm anyone?) for key components in your endgame sets. And grind a LOT longer for relic gear.

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In XI, people were smart enough to realize you won't immediately have everything after you hit max level (75 for argument sake), because it will take time to get geared and to get your merits and so on so forth - People realized that. In XIV though, a lot of people seem to feel you should have a relic+1. full DL or Myth gear and capable of speed running everything instantly at 50. It's simply not possible and if people think so that means this game is pulling in no new people and it's only the same group of people playing :) You can say "don't join premade", yet we all know people are trolling DF and the "rejects" are all that's left because they can't join groups on their servers just because they're new.

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You get idiots in both games.

We all need to start somewhere, and I'd take a sensible player in AF1 over an idiot in AF2 any day because the newbie will gear up eventually but you can't fix stupid.

Myself (Pld) and my brother (Sch) walked someone through AK last night for their first time. We had one DD slot free so Duty-findered it.
We beat every boss without any problems, including the Wall (for those keeping score, that's with one "undergeared newbie" DD, and one "DF reject" DD)

The new DD stayed on with me and we were joined by two other FC members (no names, but their gear was perfectly fine! ;) ) for a second AK run immediately afterwards. We wiped 8 times straight at the Wall, and 3 times on the Final Boss because for some reason dodging stuff was suddenly impossible. There was a bit of teasing and a lot of self-recrimination by the end of the run, but suffice to say that Lack of Lag and a Clear Head play a much bigger role in this game than being obscenely well geared!

My third and final run of the night was a "join the Duty Finder, tick the in-progress box" where I came across a group whose Tank had just ragequitted on the Demon Wall. We took a single test run at it to see if we needed to kill the bees first, or had enough DPS to kill the wall (during which the Healer ragequitted and was immediately replaced) and then just ignored the bees and SLAUGHTERED the wall, the trash mobs and the next boss without a single death or derp moment.

I hate /shout PUGs with a passion, but I wish there was a cross-server friendslist for some of the absolute gems of players that I've come across in random DF parties.

I'm not saying "don't join premades", I'm saying "don't join premades populated entirely by elitist asshats" (and "don't bite your FC teammates heads off when they have a Derp day"!) :D

You're gonna have mixed responses to this post. Unfortunately it's the backwards mentality people have in MMORPG's. They seem to put the cart in front of the horse if you know what I am sayin. People also are less likely to help these days than they were back in the pre-WOW days of MMORPG's. Nowadays it is all about getting gear as fast as you can only to complain about the the lack of content. Ironic isn't it? What I have decided now when I enter a WP or AK run is just ask if it is meant to be a speed run, if they say yes, I either let them know I am not relic geared or leave the group and find a diff one. This of course, if I use the DF. If I am getting a group together I typically ask before entering the group if it is a speed run or not. People seem to think you HAVE to have relic for speed run, and that is not true. I am not relic and I do WP runs in 20-25 mins every day. Then again, what is fast to one is not fast to another so it is subjective as are a lot of things in MMORPG's.

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Originally Posted by misterrpg

I got kicked by two groups today for "being new" and not "geared for speed runs" even though they didn't even ask for a "speed run".

One of them purposely wiped, blamed me, and then said "sry bro, but I need to do speed runs", another group kicked me immediately saying "that's the lowest HP I've ever seen, leave" and "yeah go. we don't want you" in addition to name-calling and swearing. Oh and apparently all newly leveled 50s must be automatically "geared for speed runs" because it isn't like skill isn't what is looked at first. I've seen worse level 50s than people at Brayflox.

How the hell does a newly leveled 50 get in to WP or AK since apparently they all must be already geared for speed runs?

Speed run this. Speed run that. Zerg this. Zerg that.

What's the hurry? This community is garbage. XI wasn't like this. WoW was at least manageable.

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I am on your server and we are always looking for good WHM send me a tell in game.

Answer: you can run AK and WP only so many times before it turns to major boring shit.
300 myth = 10 WP runs. Do it in 45 minute blocks (grand total of 7.5 hours of major boring shit) or 15 minute blocks (grand total of 2.5 hours of major boring shit).
Now granted, sometimes you can tag along with a friend for more 'fun' because of the friend, not the content though.

I personally do speed runs to beat my old best times. It's no great feat to kill tonberry king, but clear it in under 15 minutes makes it 'fun' to me where it otherwise wasn't.

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

I find a lot of the elitism in this game to be silly, but I never played XI. All I know is that when people tell me that a Relic is required for a healer to have in order to complete a speed run (because, and I quote, "you have to minimalize your healing"), I have to laugh. Because it's so not true. :-\ I mean, unless "Speed Runs" constitute something more than "just never stop pulling unless I scream like a girl, mr. tank." Because, I mean, that's the only way I run WP.

And it's real easy to teach a tank, too. Might take a few more minutes the first time, but afterwards it's like cake.

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I'm pretty sure you don't know what a WP speed run entails, because yes it does constitute something more than "just never stop pulling unless I scream like a girl, mr. tank.".

You need a relic/+1 on a whm just so you can stay above the burst damage coming out. You'll probably have to pop your CDs every fight as well. Then on top of that, you want to be able to handle that so well that you can dance into cleric and holy and get the run done even faster.

Speed runs wont stop until there's another way to get tomes fast. If Garuda dropped 25 myth and 50 philo, then you'd likely not have to worry about kicked out of these pugs... But then it'd be you getting kicked out of Garuda speed kills lol, it'll never stop.

If you join a group that didn't specify that they are doing a speed run then kick you later then just be glad you wasted their time since it's their problem. :)

Personally, I don't do speed runs because I feel I don't need to have everything now and I plan to play the game for a very long time. I really just focus on getting my myth tomes per week, coil and doing extra WP/AK runs to help out FC members.

Currently I have two jobs nearly in full DL gear and starting to fill out my PLD in coil and myth gear.

I avoid speed runners since they seem like unhappy people that rage easily when things don't go their way.

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Originally Posted by Rawry

There were no "speed runs" in wow... :/

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You never did HC runs with me in BC, then. <_<

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Originally Posted by Rawry

There were no "speed runs" in wow... :/

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there were speedruns in early vanilla when scholomance and that one other dungeon were the only endgame content. scholomance took like 2 hours to do and you could speed run it in about 40.

In my experience speed runs take just as long as regular ones because the tank runs off and dies, can't hold Aggro, or the healer can't keep the tank alive through the damage. These are people in the so called +1's. I do not even bother looking for them, asking for them, or actively seek them out.

I'd rather have a smooth run, get lots of Gil, and have fun over rushing through content, wiping, losing Gil due to skipped monsters, and taking the same amount of time.

Leave the SR crap to the static 4 man groups that know exactly what their going to be doing each time and don't pug those IMO. Just because they have gear does not mean their not idiots.

This is the result of all the bitching about speed runs before they made all the changes. If the dungeons where never messed with to begin with you wouldn't be having this issue so much. AK trash mobs have some funky def and take longer to kill. Not running that dungeon with IL55 gear no more cause it takes to long. WP use to be abandoned so you only got newbs not noobs in it. It was fun. If people could still sac pull trash in ak a couple under gear newbs could get carried and collect tomes fast. You could do WP in your AF. Not now since mytho tomes drop there. If people wouldn't have complained about wanting to watching cut scenes in CM you could be in full DL by now. Nope.... Now CM is abandoned and the newb dungeon WP is the best place to farm cause AK has crap trash mobs. SO now your only choice is to DF till you get some gear and then try and catch up.
Thought you could kill the speed run but all ya did was make entry level requirements tougher on yourselves. The more they screw up thing to force one playstyle the less chance you'll have to participate cause the speed runners are gonna figure out something new and it will get popular and you'll be left out again.
Personally I think requiring DL and a relic for any content pre coil is just dumb. DL for titan yes cause you need that shit. Its A level 70 fight. All content before is level 60 garuda/AK or 55 ifrit/WP. Think about what ya bitching about in the future cause you'll probably end up in a situation like this every time content gets adjusted to please the cry babies. Your stuck with DF till you make some friends.

Not directed at only the OP but anyone who has this problem. Got to remember that 50 content is heavily populated with people who have more than one 50 class and gearing them in DL and getting relics is a chore after the first couple times. All of you that whined about how people rush through to end game are now feeling left out cause they wanted to enjoy the environment or what ever the hell they was doing. Now that your at 50 you see the wide gap in gear requirements and feel like your being shunned. Just need to lay back and enjoy the environment more cause you aint catching up to the relic speed runners anytime soon. Dont get in a rush for gear now that your 50. Should have joined that party With your main class a month ago.

It's because, at the moment, everything in this game is a repetitive grind, and you just want it over as soon as possible.

I think you'll find less of this if you join via Duty Finder. I purposely avoid speed run groups as I like to run at a more casual pace. Saving 10 minutes off an AK run isn't the end of the world for me.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to do stuff faster. Problem is most people ask for speed run can't even do it reliably themselves so you're better off avoiding them in the first place. Most of the time speed run really just means 'tank aggro a ton of mobs and die', and that'll likely take longer to finish than just killing one pack at a time. Sometimes your group flat out doesn't have enough AE firepower (maybe you've the wrong DPS classes) to kill the stuff in a reasonable time and yet people never seem to notice these things.

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Originally Posted by LordSideKicks

Erm CM till u got a few darklight before Ak or Wp. That is what I did.

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Meh, as a healer you don't need good gear for WP. My other friends weren't well geared and we did fine.
WP is an extremely easy dungeon. I personally hate speed-runs. I don't feel like trying to super heal with 30 mobs on a tank and stuff.
Then again, I don't care much for these DL/AF2 crap things.

AK is a different stress-induced story.

I see a whole lot of people saying what order to do things in.

Truth is all of it can be done in AF, there's no "hard" DPS check until Titan. I went straight from main story to AK and spent about 5 runs learning (read: derping hard) and then NP. Gear was never an issue. Am I faster now? Sure! But it's usually wipe causing mistakes that get you flamed, not lack of DPS.

Bottom line... until you are geared, practiced and know the run, don't take the SR shout. You have every right to be in there farming that dungeon but if you sign up to do it on someone elses terms.. .You begging for punishment.

Just take the time to learn among friends or with thick skin...

I am not a fan of speedruns because half the (PUG, whether premade or DF) groups can't manage them properly and would have taken less time to do it the normal way. So I don't bother. Instead I just do AK for the 150 myth I need to cap after I am done with Coil 1-4; it means I have to run it 4 times per week, really not that big of a deal. If I feel the need for variety I'll do Garuda HM; it's roughly 5 min, so 4 of those take less time than an AK run and net the same amount of myths.

I always laugh when random SR players appear in DF and then die with assumption everyone knows what to do to make it a speed run lol.

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Originally Posted by misterrpg

No because the game forced you to take your time so everyone did. You didn't play XI, that much is very apparent.

Games like WoW and XIV advocate people like this. Elitists, a plague.

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Clearly you never got very far in FFXI. Each job had items they pretty much had to get in order to be invited, 57 thf and no Scorpion Harness, hah good luck getting a party. War without hauby? No thanks guy. Oh you're going to sub anything but /nin so you can't dual wield? Hah get out. Ranger with no sam sub? No thanks buddy.

The elitist mentality ran rampant in 11 just like it does any other game.

my feelings on most shouts for speed runs:

http://www.prdaily.com/Uploads/Publi...k-it-means.jpg

I completed my first run of AK successfully as a Whm with an iLvl 50 weapon, full af (not af +1 or af2, just regular old dusty af) accessories that ranged from 45 to 50, and 1 darklight neck piece. We wiped once on the first boss, but I learned the mechanics and we nailed it the second time with plenty of breathing room to spare. Demon wall? Same story. Wiped once, learned the mechanic, nailed it with room to spare. Final boss? Beat that one on the first attempt. 30-40 minute affair tops.

I don't remember everything my friends had, but it wasn't anywhere near full DL, they didn't have relic weapons, and I was far from a burden if the first two bosses only required a learning curve. I could see myself being a burden if we wiped and only won by barely scraping by, but once I'd learned their mechanics, we had hp and mp to spare at the end of each fight, and no raises necessary.

I'll concede to speed runs, but anyone saying a regular AK run can't be done without 2-3 or full darklight and relic weapons is either confusing regular runs with speed runs, or they rely on overgearing to make up for their ability (or lack there of) to play their role.

OP... your gear is pretty awful, sorry.

Speed runs are great imo.

I'm forced to do WP/AK so many times a week to cap my Myth stones, so I want them to go as quickly as possible. The only shouts you hear now are, "DL/+1 Relic for WP/AK!!" anyway, poor new players.

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Originally Posted by whilke

I'm pretty sure you don't know what a WP speed run entails, because yes it does constitute something more than "just never stop pulling unless I scream like a girl, mr. tank.".

You need a relic/+1 on a whm just so you can stay above the burst damage coming out. You'll probably have to pop your CDs every fight as well. Then on top of that, you want to be able to handle that so well that you can dance into cleric and holy and get the run done even faster.

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Maybe I'm just silly, but when I'm already clearing those places in 17ish minutes, I don't see the point of a speedrun to shave, what, 2 mins off?

Ha, you gotta laugh hardcore at some of these neckbeards. I did Ifrit and AK with minimal gear and rarely get whined at in Duty Finder. So it works out fine in most instances. MMO attract the dirt in videogames because they simply attract people who make the game their life.

Beyond that this game is a joke of content at 50. There is simply very little to do. Not sure I can resub for this. I have a couple darklight items but tbh don't feel the need to grind dungeons all that much. Seems fun for one or two. And then I'm left going...... yeah, what now.

Generally, I slow a DL team up in AK but if they are good you hardly notice it unless you are a loser or I'm dying from a one hit twice or something.

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

Played since around 2006 until recently. How long have you played, good sir? If you DID play, you likely never did endgame of any kind.

Of every MMO out there, FFXI was the absolute worst when it came to elitism. WoW and FFXIV pale in comparison, but it's quite clear that you're just on the "lets H8 wOw" bandwagon. Neither of those games advocate elitists, whereas FFXI did.

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... I don't think you realize your own bias if you say/believe that neither WoW nor FFXIV advocate elitists.