Issues with Coil: Statics v. The Rest of Us

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

it had nothing at all to do with being left behind because of being a lesser player. it had to do with being left behind because you weren't one of the first 8 to sign up. there's a big difference between being left behind for one for an event because of lact of room and being left behind while not even getting the chance to get experience in the fight at all.

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This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about! If SE allowed for players to go back and participate without having a loot roll, this would be alleviated.

Coil is an absolute nightmare for any organized endgame guild. 4 Coil groups running in my guild... and on average 5-7 people a week who have to sit out a week in Na times, 3-4 in EU time frames.

It is impossible to schedule without screwing people over. Unless you magically have 8 people increments with exactly the right jobs. Seriously the most stressful part of Coil is not the difficulty of stuff... but just getting it organized into groups were you are not leaving people out of it or ending up with sub-optimal groups who cannot win. As a guild leader trying to run a guild and not just a static group... Mondays are the day from hell because of coil.

This game needs content designed for guild. COIL is not designed for guilds in any way form or fashion, it is doing more to break guilds apart then any content SE has ever had in a mmo to date. Just pure horrible design in my opinion. Nothing positive about how they handled it.

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Originally Posted by Grailer

The Cap on mythology tomestones is really bad for casual gamers .

300 A week is fine but if you don't get 300 you lose it .

What should happen is you get 300 Added to the amount you can obtain . So if one week I am on holiday , the following week I can just play ALOT more and get 600 for that week , which is a lot of work but doable.


Basically Im paying money I don't want to be disadvantaged because I have a real life .

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Couldn't agree more. I wish they'd done it more like leve allowances, where you could stack up your myth cap to a certain hard cap (say 900?) and get them when convenient. As the system exists right now it feels particularly chore-ish.

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Originally Posted by Moktor

Does it change your rewarding feeling if someone else does it another way?

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The point is not that I care how others play, but that the rate you can obtain level 90 gear is fixed for a reason. If we could grind allagan then we would burn out of content well before the next update. Fwiw I don't mind the idea of being able to do turns again but locking people out of rolling for loot more than once a turn a week and additional myth drops, as id love to be able to help other groups in the fc if they have an absence. However this would still increase the rate of allagan drops server wide so I'm not sure about that, it would have to be that it is only possible to roll on your first run, regardless if you got gear or not

Either way i still wouldn't pug it, and I believe it is a terrible way to go about doing coil. Run with people you can trust or pug to find people you can trust.

Just to be absolutely clear though, the nature of statics is that people will be left out, so asking for accommodation on something that se has made very clear is for the more dedicated crowd is barking up the wrong tree. I believe that people should be able to redo turns out of pure charity, with no potential to profit. It should be designed in a way that encourages people to form statics, and the issues with this are no different than any other mmo. At least the raid sizes are smaller, in bigger raids scheduling's a real nightmare

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Originally Posted by Grailer

The Cap on mythology tomestones is really bad for casual gamers .

300 A week is fine but if you don't get 300 you lose it .

What should happen is you get 300 Added to the amount you can obtain . So if one week I am on holiday , the following week I can just play ALOT more and get 600 for that week , which is a lot of work but doable.


Basically Im paying money I don't want to be disadvantaged because I have a real life .

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I'm sorry but I hate people who cries just because they have "a life, wife, kids, school, my dog died, etc".
Don't expect to be an Elite in the game when you cant afford to put a minimum amount of time into it.
Just because you want to kill 1 mob to get cap lvl or want to run 1 dungeon to get all best gear it doesn't mean that all of us thinks the same.

There are lots of people, casual people, not just hardcore who wants to have a little gratification for achieving something that took them more than 20 minutes to accomplish.

Good post. I'd rather take my chances with DF groups instead of hanging out in Revenant's Toll and/or watching LS chats in hopes a group comes together and that I can get in. Loot lockouts would also be a great solution since the problem in my FC is there just isn't enough people for an additional static BC group.

The thing is, even back in 1.0, FFxiv have always been a group/friends centric game, without that, everything fall apart. Even with run like cutter cry and aurum vale for the old darklight, you can easily rotate people in and out for run to get gears. Here you don't really have much choice.

Being able to go back to turn 1 and help out other members would be great. Small issue, this means you could theoretically carry people. Not something SE wants?

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Originally Posted by Rubieus

Being able to go back to turn 1 and help out other members would be great. Small issue, this means you could theoretically carry people. Not something SE wants?

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If that were the case they would have done something about selling Titan HM runs, and people AFKing in CM etc.....
I will say this though, people using the argument that if the lock out changed to where you couldn't roll on gear it would promote selling of runs uh newsflash, that is STILL going to happen and nothing will change that.

I have had success through Turn 1-4 with PUGs and Turn 5 would also just require experience and gear like everything else.
You can even farm Titan HM through DF now. I just had 6, one to three shot runs.

Filthy Casual, QQ moar.

The gear should be locked out not the content. Reduce the chest drop rate by 12.5% for every person who has cleared that turn. My FC doesn't use static parties but instead the old fashioned rotation method because we don't have enough for two parties. This means some people miss turns every week. I actually PUGed turn 1 last week due to missing the clear, and we won first try.

The Coil = Purveyor of narcissistic egos/jealousy/distrust, Destroyer of Free Companies/Linkshells/longtime friendships, Worst enemy in the game.

Probably not what it was intended to be... >.<, not really in line with all that Yoshi-P talks about. But it is what it is.

the problem isnt coil at all, it is those stubborn smaller FC's (i mean the FC's who have less than 30ppl) i dont get why would 4 friends who know eachother outside the game cant join up a big,well-established FC with lots of members to interact/socialize with and eventually clearing end-game content, those 4 friends are better off just making a linkshell for themselves IMO and stop making those ridiculously small FC's who 99.9% of the time doesnt make it to end-game content.

Participation lockouts exist so people can't be carried through Coil or buy runs like with Titan. It's a sad thing but it's caused by the community being terrible in most MMOs. I don't like them because I can't help anybody in my FC with Coil since I run it with my static. But I understand why they exist unfortunately.

I would like option 2: loot lockout and free entrance to the Coil; I would just add a token reward or higher tomes reward for people returning to the instance in party with player who did not clear it already that week.

This way you would both give people a reason to re-enter (for allagan sets specific tokens or for Mythology Tomes), while still ensuring static parties able to fly to T5 in no time not to spam the content to get full Allagan within a few weeks (making sure you are allowed for more tomes/tokens only if in your party there are, let's say, 4 new people).

Coil first two turns are doable with Relic + Full DL, it's just harder.

Mythology cap isn't a reason your ls mates can't do coil with you. The people who first cleared the first two turns of coil (BG) did it w/o ilevel 90 gear iirc.

A small FC may search others small FC, create a linkshell and members without coil raid, join to one.

My FC did that and now we are around 6x members, 3 raids to coil turn 4 and people to 2 more.

I feel fear to join DF turn 1, in front of the first ADS and no bard, no monk, no PLD to stopcastting high voltage :(

The excuse of "i have a life, childrens, other stuffs,..." it's not valid. My raid at first time, we raid 3 days 2 hours each day. Now, we clear turn 1-4 in 2 hours.

Don't be lazy and try to fix your problem, crying about i can't coil cause other players are bad and can't join to theirs members.

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Originally Posted by NekoHina

The Coil = Purveyor of narcissistic egos/jealousy/distrust, Destroyer of Free Companies/Linkshells/longtime friendships, Worst enemy in the game.

Probably not what it was intended to be... >.<, not really in line with all that Yoshi-P talks about. But it is what it is.

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^Truth.

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Originally Posted by Vermilion

Filthy Casual, QQ moar.

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People like you actually exist? I've heard a lot about elitism on Sargantas, but... wow. Lol.

Bump for social justice.

I'm with the OP. In fact, static party in my FC have left a sour taste in my mouth. It wasn't until a short time ago where we all (the few remaining members from the FC) were trying coil together, then someone in leadership decided to form a static and alienated the rest of the FC, which is about 5 of us anyways (that's how all the FC is now).

I'm not having fun anymore, which is one of the purpose I play the game, and that is to have fun.

Something has to give with this part of the game, and if this is how end game is going to be from now on, then I don't think I'll be in the game for a very long time.

Some of us have different play time, some log in at certain hours, others at other hours, so not everyone can form a static and raid the place at a specific time, specially if it is every night (some of us have RL matters to attend to).

I agree, the Coil lockout is BS. I'm waiting to see if the situation changes with 2.1 while working on getting my AF2 for WAR. Since my main is WAR and few groups want a WAR tank in Coil anyway, I'm also hoping that situation changes with 2.1.

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Originally Posted by DivineAyumi

I'm sorry but I hate people who cries just because they have "a life, wife, kids, school, my dog died, etc".
Don't expect to be an Elite in the game when you cant afford to put a minimum amount of time into it.
Just because you want to kill 1 mob to get cap lvl or want to run 1 dungeon to get all best gear it doesn't mean that all of us thinks the same.

There are lots of people, casual people, not just hardcore who wants to have a little gratification for achieving something that took them more than 20 minutes to accomplish.

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So, doing a weak instance and getting currency gear is considered "elite" and "accomplishing" now?

Damn, the bar is set pretty low nowadays.

Static progression sucks in my humble opinion. I'm actually tired of exclusive cliques. I lost interest in Coil because of these two things.

There are a few misconceptions you make.

First you don't need to wait months for friends to be Coil ready. with regular Relic and Full Darklight you can start doing Coils Turn 1 and 2 (Turn 3 doesn't count :p). Relic is easy to get with a good group, and Darklight has no weekly limit, you can fully gear with DL in one week very easily.

For Turn 4 which is a steeper DPS check, is better to have your DPS on Relic +1, also a Scholar using Selene on the first phases helps a lot because of the haste buffs. An a BLM is a must here as well.

So just help your friends get ready, farm the tomes and gear with DL, form your own static and start doing it. DF is not recommended with Coils, you need a layed out strategy and a group that knows each other. Also voice chat is very much recommended.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

DF can't work for coil.
Coil type instance is very different to other MMO instance. It required a lots of strategy. For different group setup, the strategy could be very different. need group commander to call what every one should do for each turn. so I don't think df could work, even turn1

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Are you serious? Coil 1-2 is extremely easy to PUG and we're starting to crack 4. Just because you can't doesn't mean the rest of us can't.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

I agree, the Coil lockout is BS. I'm waiting to see if the situation changes with 2.1 while working on getting my AF2 for WAR. Since my main is WAR and few groups want a WAR tank in Coil anyway, I'm also hoping that situation changes with 2.1.

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Molly, I feel your pain. in 1.0 I was main PLD, and I was at the other end of the stick, nobody wanted a PLD on endgame raids back then. That made me level my WAR, and I had both. I recommend we look at us as main tanks, and level both, WAR and PLD are different and they both have advantages and disadvantages. Though right now PLD is more wanted for its big survivability.

As of now in Turn 4 is very good to have a warrior as offtank, the rest of turns, not so much, but 2.1 should fix that up.

Cheers.

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Originally Posted by Elendil_Voronda

Molly, I feel your pain. in 1.0 I was main PLD, and I was at the other end of the stick, nobody wanted a PLD on endgame raids back then. That made me level my WAR, and I had both. I recommend we look at us as main tanks, and level both, WAR and PLD are different and they both have advantages and disadvantages. Though right now PLD is more wanted for its big survivability.

As of now in Turn 4 is very good to have a warrior as offtank, the rest of turns, not so much, but 2.1 should fix that up.

Cheers.

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I have both, but don't really like PLD. So I'm not using my myth tomes for a class I don't really like all that much. It would get me into Coil, sure, but not as the job I want to play in coil.

Pretty much where I sit as well getting anything going for coil is like pulling teeth. Our Fc is like that now there are a few statics but because of lock outs obviously no one is gonna run with anyone else besides their statics but like many have said that brings up issues of others not being able to get into one. I've tried to put together a static and stuff but there just seems to be no interest or the rest are in small FC statics and I'm in a large FC. I don't really want to but I have been torn about dropping my current FC and searching out another to hopefully get something done.

The Coil, once you get each fight down is easily cleared in an hour or two. Which makes the totality of end game right now 1-2 hours a week. That much is, I hope, obviously absurd.

The easiest solution is to give players more opportunities and more options in doing end game. I think it would be entirely reasonable to slightly tweak the BC in the following manner... You can retry any turn you have already completed as many times as you want, whenever you want; and, allow the Duty Finder to form parties for specific turns.

There are times when static groups aren't able to all meet at certain times, and it's a win-win for players. The only reason this wouldn't be implemented is Square trying to make the BC relevant longer than it should be.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

I have both, but don't really like PLD. So I'm not using my myth tomes for a class I don't really like all that much. It would get me into Coil, sure, but not as the job I want to play in coil.

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But for Turn 1 and 2 you only need Full Darklight and Relic, no need to expend your myths on it, and if by luck you get the Allagan Chest, that works for both classes, actually all Allagan tank gear is wearable for both classes.

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Originally Posted by Eight

Pretty much where I sit as well getting anything going for coil is like pulling teeth. Our Fc is like that now there are a few statics but because of lock outs obviously no one is gonna run with anyone else besides their statics but like many have said that brings up issues of others not being able to get into one. I've tried to put together a static and stuff but there just seems to be no interest or the rest are in small FC statics and I'm in a large FC. I don't really want to but I have been torn about dropping my current FC and searching out another to hopefully get something done.

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Yeah, it just plain sucks.

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Originally Posted by foobarbaz

Are you serious? Coil 1-2 is extremely easy to PUG and we're starting to crack 4. Just because you can't doesn't mean the rest of us can't.

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I think what he meant (and me as well in a previous post) is that DF is not meant to work with content like Coils, for the simple reason it mix and matches types of jobs not jobs themselves.

Imagine a DF Coil for Turn 2 pops, then you enter, you have 2 WARs, 2 Healers, 1 BLM, 2 monks, 1 dragoon... It has the standard party setup, but who will handle the silences? no bards, no paladins. This is the problem.

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Originally Posted by Eight

Pretty much where I sit as well getting anything going for coil is like pulling teeth. Our Fc is like that now there are a few statics but because of lock outs obviously no one is gonna run with anyone else besides their statics but like many have said that brings up issues of others not being able to get into one. I've tried to put together a static and stuff but there just seems to be no interest or the rest are in small FC statics and I'm in a large FC. I don't really want to but I have been torn about dropping my current FC and searching out another to hopefully get something done.

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Well in our FC we have 3 Coils groups, wich we shuffle every week, we dont have statics per se. This works out fine as we get used to play with everybody. Also as newer members start getting coils ready we include them in the Coils group. So maybe talk to the leaders and propose something similar.

The end game is similar to others in that it's a continual escalation - of time, not skill. Enough time and you memorise each boss pattern. Repeat what you have memorised with other similar players, then move on to the next memorising exercise.
Other games are very similar - apart from one major difference at the moment - they have learnt that funnelling the playerbase down one track is a recipe for a quickly reducing subscription number.
Their response has been a wide variety of content at lvl cap. ARR is only new and doesn't have that yet. But that's not the other games' fault and it's these others that are the direct competition.
Until ARR does widen the content players like the OP will continue to feel stonewalled

I like your ideas, except I'd like to add one more thing. When you DF coil it should only group you with people on your server. I think that would be a good idea in that if you're looking for members to create a static DF will actually help you achieve that goal.

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Originally Posted by Elendil_Voronda

I think what he meant (and me as well in a previous post) is that DF is not meant to work with content like Coils, for the simple reason it mix and matches types of jobs not jobs themselves.

Imagine a DF Coil for Turn 2 pops, then you enter, you have 2 WARs, 2 Healers, 1 BLM, 2 monks, 1 dragoon... It has the standard party setup, but who will handle the silences? no bards, no paladins. This is the problem.

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This is assuming that DF isn't going to change. I certainly would like to see it tailored more to each fight, such as allowing for a 5-dps comp in Titan, and so on.

That said, the assumption many are making is that everyone is queuing on their own. 9 times out of 10, I queue df with a partial party, its usually just the last few players that you can find that require a df.

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Originally Posted by Macho

I like your ideas, except I'd like to add one more thing. When you DF coil it should only group you with people on your server. I think that would be a good idea in that if you're looking for members to create a static DF will actually help you achieve that goal.

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I think an option for "server only" is a great idea, and should be implemented across the board, not just in coil. However, I am vehemently against making it required.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

Until ARR does widen the content players like the OP will continue to feel stonewalled

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I get what you're saying, but I really don't have a problem with the breadth of content yet -- I usually have things to do. My issue is with content needlessly being restricted. Let the difficultly (and gear req) restrict access, don't just arbitrarily lock people out because it seemed the thing to do.

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Originally Posted by Xellos2099

In short, is anti-friend, anti- group. It can be said coil is the destroyer of fc and friends. FC are a group of people who work toward a single goal or just want to run stuff together, usually they are friends too. However, when friends can't no longer run stuff together, it cause problems. When you join a fc and can't run stuff with friends, its sole purpose is gone. I seen people leave their fc because they can never in one of the coil group. The problem is bigger than people thinks since it doesn't affect the people are are already in a coil group. It cast a seed of distrust among friends.

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I'd say that the fault of the company you keep, not the design of the dungeon. If THIS is what causes a friendship to dissolve, how stable was that friendship in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

This game needs content designed for guild. COIL is not designed for guilds in any way form or fashion, it is doing more to break guilds apart then any content SE has ever had in a mmo to date. Just pure horrible design in my opinion. Nothing positive about how they handled it.

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Crystal Tower in 2.1. Please look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Elendil_Voronda

I think what he meant (and me as well in a previous post) is that DF is not meant to work with content like Coils, for the simple reason it mix and matches types of jobs not jobs themselves.

Imagine a DF Coil for Turn 2 pops, then you enter, you have 2 WARs, 2 Healers, 1 BLM, 2 monks, 1 dragoon... It has the standard party setup, but who will handle the silences? no bards, no paladins. This is the problem.

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One Monk can silence the whole of Turn 2.

This kind of thinking has been around ever since Ultima Online/Everquest. I can remember being jealous I didn't have that Executioner's Axe when I saw someone carrying it around in the East Commons tunnel entrance (think I got that right lol).

MMOs are all about the haves and have nots. You should have to work for something to get it. Get into an FC. Prove yourself worthy to go on runs with that crew. Or create your own and work your way through it.

I dont think DF will ever work because the strats are more strenuous than Titan HM at times.

Everyone SHOULD have the opportunity to get all gear. However it shouldn't be handed to you. Get out there and do what you have to do in an MMO, be SOCIAL!