Nerf FATEs, but don't

This is like the 10th or 11th game in my mmorpg "career", and after 13 or so years of dealing with this genre I think I know the deal with parties. That said, I will continue leveling with Fates thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by Ketsufuma

Fates are in the game for several reason....VARIETY

If you dont like fates you have the choice not to partake in them.

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What variety? The only variety most people get is which camp they sit in while staring at the map.

The tears are strong in them complainers...expect another nerf coming soon.

I call who no skill play come from fate only is fate runner. and i alway cry when have that one in my duty..... /cry
i ever see blm use only blizzard when go wp. and spam blizzard 2 non stop when have alot mob. orz no sleep no fire no flare...

so i recomment slow rate fate pop but give more seal and item from fate. any junk or craft item is ok.

It's funny how everyone ignores what was said in the OP.

FATEs are so much better than everything else that you are forced in to them if you want to level in a timely manner. Have you queued for a sub 50 dungeon recently? Have you noticed the threads complaining about newcomers unable to progress in the story as no one runs anything? Dungeon grinding isn't an option especially if you are leveling a DPS. Leves are the slowest option of all and are intended to be supplemental EXP on DOW/DOM. They are mostly for the rewards and chest gear (as you rarely run dungeons pre 50).

You are stuck with making a static if you want to run dungeons, which isn't something that you can rely on happening or staying together.

And for those who have 'Played 50 MMOs it's just fine', try to remember that in every one of those MMOs, nearly every player takes only the most efficient way. Every game every time in every era. Those who don't want to will still go with those who do as MMOs are social. The rebels who would do it otherwise anyway are left with no viable option to do it any other way even when they exist.

This is entirely about viability, not what is available and not used.

This is why I am getting all my classes to level 50 before they nerf them. I should have all of them level 50 by next week. I like doing fates. Not to mention I do fates while I wait for duty finder...

Or, you know, buff dungeon exp and be done with it.

This isn't a Korean hard core grind mmo it's made for casual scrubs with only 5 minutes to play what do you expect when SE takes opinions of many babis from beta forums, and all they look at is how hard and boring killing mobs was for exp. And I vote get rid of all the Fail fates please and bring back the mob grind!!!

go dun now if not found noob in your PT.you will got 1 lv in at lv 30+ 2-3 hr and 3-4 hr for lv 40+. for mmorpg i think it is already fast enough....but fate can give all in 2hr lol

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Originally Posted by Naberrie

It can, actually. If you go into, say, Brayflox with a tank who leveled entirely thru FATEs and is only now tanking their first dungeon, it will negatively effect everyone else in the party.

There is one player on my server who is always in South Shroud doing FATEs. Always. They never leave. They don't even seem to care what their level is. They were doing the Robber Goblin FATE today as a level 20 ACN. That FATE is, I believe, level 28 or 29. They died twice at least that I saw. They can't even run FATEs properly, I've no faith they could run a dungeon.

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Considering that dungeons are part of the main story line it is very unlikely that this would happen. Also, why hate on someone for a death in a fate 9 levels above him?

With this changes I see hardly a fair treatment between those players that leveled all their battleclases with quicky-FATES and between all players that start later after the nerf and have to put much more effort to gain what the others got.

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Originally Posted by Datu

I agree with lowering the fate spawn time. I've been saying this since day 1. You can't run around the world without tripping over a FATE and the inevitable mass of players that crawl after it.

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How's that a bad thing?

whatever provides the best XP gain is what will be 'spammed'. what happens when the best xp farm spot is also a quest/hunting log/material farm spot? we get threads crying about 'mob campers ruining game' blah blah.hell if leveling solo was fastest, thats what the majority will end up doing.
and if you think tome/speed run groups at lvl 50 are 'toxic', just imagine the vitriol in low level dungeons when people are spamming them for xp. oh lets not forget about the tears that will flow when 'XP speedrunners are ruining dungeons' threads emerge.

some people find the FATE grind boring, some dont care just want to level as fast as possible since they already saw story. frankly any changes will just be trading one evil for another.

imho, if FATES were better, maybe more along the lines of an actual dungeon boss battle, and scaled better so they wouldnt be zerged to death in 30 seconds, this wouldnt be much an issue at all

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Originally Posted by Sinth

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The problem with fates is that it is so much better than everything else that it affects the lower level dungeon queues (as there's no reason to run a dungeon multiple times even when level appropriate, unless you want to complete gear sets - something entirely unnecessary as far as gearing goes) and indirectly affects level 50 player skill and gear because they never really play that class in a controlled party environment* then drop in WP / AK and don't even know how to use a limit break or, even worse, didn't even unlock all their job skills (and on extreme cases, didn't even unlock jobs. I had a few of those on duty finder).

*The fact that you have to do dungeons to complete the storyline does not solve this issue completely, because, while our dear player might have done all them on say, Archer and learned it, it does mean that when he fate grinds his gladiator he will have no idea how to play a tank, or level puglist and have no idea about it's huge rotations, etc.

That said, no one thinks that fates need to be nerfed into oblivion, but the other leveling methods need to at least be competitive with fates. As it stands, nothing is nowhere near fate level.

I just wish they would buff dungeon xp or mob xp so there are other comparable alternatives to xp'ing. Fates are fine, but being the fastest method to level only doesn't seem logical. Give us more avenues of approach please.

Honestly I do wish they would make the xp a little lower than dungeons so people are forced to.. you know.. learn to play their job.

While it is easy to say 'Nerf FATEs because of their XP', 'Buff Dungeons', ect fact of the matter is that it simply isn't that simple.

You can give dungeons 500% more XP, or a 50K XP reward for completing that dungeon, but you run into issues of you still need tanks, healers, and to actually be able to finish the dungeon. In the end, people will still choose to take the path of least resistance and go with the FATE rewards where that can get 16K+ XP at level 41 in minutes, and repeatably. Same thing with nerfing FATEs, you can remove FATEs, lower spawn times, lower XP rates, but then you have those people who don't have any quests to do, burned through their leve allowances for the day, or just like being in the open world that are now made to suffer with a much longer leveling curve, not harder, just longer.

Fixing the current curve requires a few various attacks. Yes, FATEs may need a slight adjustment, either through XP or respawn times, but before that occurs I would like to see a few changes.

• More quests added to the game, give players true options of leveling no matter how many 1-50 trips they have done.
• leve XP buffed to match a quest of similar level. You can do a level 44 challenge leve and get ~7K XP, meanwhile a sidequest of the same level gives 12K+ each turn in. Game should also promote Leve quest groups better, let a party of four players share leves. Could see a few groups doing this in V1.0, and it promoted actual comradery and parties, without shoving them down players throats.
• Give dungeons a final XP reward for completing any dungeon (on top of the first time reward), this way you promote players doing previous dungeons more than once.
• Probably one of the most important aspects, let players have the ability to level sync at will within a party. This allows people to join low level friends outside of just Duties.

Once all that is said and done, I would say we would be in a much better position to decide just how to change FATEs if it was still needed.

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Originally Posted by SinisterJoint

I just wish they would buff dungeon xp or mob xp so there are other comparable alternatives to xp'ing. Fates are fine, but being the fastest method to level only doesn't seem logical. Give us more avenues of approach please.

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FATEs are also the only reliable way of getting Grand Company seals. All other methods have arbitrary restrictions (provisioning/supply, gcleves), or have too many restrictions and low rewards (expert deliveries).

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Originally Posted by SinisterJoint

Honestly I do wish they would make the xp a little lower than dungeons so people are forced to.. you know.. learn to play their job.

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I don't think it'd be feasible to make dungeons completely competitive with FATEs exp-wise, and if they did, then everyone would start complaining about all the people wanting to force other people to speedrun so they can level up faster. Think of the situation with the lv50 dungeons, only with it affecting even Sastasha newbies.

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Originally Posted by Khaleon

• More quests added to the game, give players true options of leveling no matter how many 1-50 trips they have done.

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I actually refrained from doing too many sidequests when getting my first 50 so I could use them when I leveled other classes. This is *not* the kind of resource management one is supposed to do on a living world.

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Originally Posted by Khaleon

• Give dungeons a final XP reward for completing any dungeon (on top of the first time reward), this way you promote players doing previous dungeons more than once.

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There actually is a reward, even for non-first-time completion; it is however quite tiny. See also the guildhest rewards: it's a complete waste of time to do any of them once you've done them once.

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Originally Posted by Constance

I always get a chuckle arriving in a hub and seeing 50 bads just sitting around waiting for fates to pop because they're not competent or intelligent enough to do anything else.

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Way to just blanket insult everyone who chooses to exp the most efficient way. I wasn't aware that being "competent or intelligent" meant going out of your way to get exp slower. Who knew?

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

Way to just blanket insult everyone who chooses to exp the most efficient way. I wasn't aware that being "competent or intelligent" meant going out of your way to get exp slower. Who knew?

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It *is* true though that leveling up solely through FATEs breeds incompetence for group content (you should see what a disaster a tank that goes through a dungeon as if it was a long FATE is). It doesn't mean that the people doing FATEs are incompetent or dumb though.

Personally, I don't think mob based experience should be increased. I think that mentality is a direct reflection of the "I want my max level asap" mindset. I think mob exp is fine the way it is. I have a level 26 Lancer, and level 47 Black Mage and I like the fact that I am actually having to work for what I earn. Now, my personal opinion on fates is of a similar perspective to the OP's except I do not think spawn rates should change. I believe the amount of exp the Fate's give should be lowered by 40% or so. People who fate hop just turn this game into Wow where they jump from one fate to another then sit in cities for ends up ends. Look, the lack of end game is present, but getting to 50 within a week, is not really how this game was meant to be played. Most players who did this did not bother reading any dialogue and now wanna complain about lack of content?!?! That just seems silly to me. In regard to dungeon and leve exp reward, I think a 10% increase is valid, just my 2 cents.

if i had to leveling my lancer to 34 to blood for blood skill using DF i would have hanged

Wow I didn't mean for this to turn into a debate of whether or not people can learn their classes in FATEs. Let me clarify my OP a bit.

I enjoy FATEs. I like them as a leveling option. However, as they currently stand they overshadow every other option out there which in turn is actually making FATEs LESS fun. I enjoy a FATE when I'm running somewhere on a quest, I stop what I'm doing and the people around me join in and we work collaboratively to get some great rewards. That's fun.

What's unfun, is when I'm mining a node and a FATE spawns near me and by the time I switch my class but before my skills even become available, a train of 75 people plow through and AoE blast everything into oblivion. That's not fun.

If FATE's spawned at a slower rate and other exp methods were higher, less people would solely stand around and just try to train from one to the next. It would be more effecient to have a leve group, and clear a FATE if it spawned near you instead of sitting in town constantly waiting for the next one to spawn. This would encourage more people to take other MORE effecient paths mixing in FATEs as a part of that leveling rotation instead of it being the sole way to level.

I want to use FATEs to level, but they become unfun when 100 people are training them.

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Originally Posted by Vindrax

Wow I didn't mean for this to turn into a debate of whether or not people can learn their classes in FATEs. Let me clarify my OP a bit.

I enjoy FATEs. I like them as a leveling option. However, as they currently stand they overshadow every other option out there which in turn is actually making FATEs LESS fun. I enjoy a FATE when I'm running somewhere on a quest, I stop what I'm doing and the people around me join in and we work collaboratively to get some great rewards. That's fun.

What's unfun, is when I'm mining a node and a FATE spawns near me and by the time I switch my class but before my skills even become available, a train of 75 people plow through and AoE blast everything into oblivion. That's not fun.

If FATE's spawned at a slower rate and other exp methods were higher, less people would solely stand around and just try to train from one to the next. It would be more effecient to have a leve group, and clear a FATE if it spawned near you instead of sitting in town constantly waiting for the next one to spawn. This would encourage more people to take other MORE effecient paths mixing in FATEs as a part of that leveling rotation instead of it being the sole way to level.

I want to use FATEs to level, but they become unfun when 100 people are training them.

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I get what you're saying, but slowing FATEs down won't do anything. People will still stand around, they'll just be doing it for longer and it'll make everybody miserable. The solution is to make another alternative to cut down on the folks sitting around for fates that's just as fast as fates, that way it divvies up the playerbase.

Is it dungeons? People make a good point that the queue can take forever (especially if you're DPS), I don't know exactly what, but the ideal solution is for them to create another leveling alternative (levemetes, maybe, with XP buffs and a lift on battlecraft limits?) that gives as much as the fates.

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

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Apparently no one in this thread has started an old school mob farming PT (like in XI) because the XP is quite a bit superior to FATE farming due to 0 downtime. Yeah, you don't get seals, and its not easy-mode spamming 1 skill, but it is a very effective means of grinding.

This is true for every fate grind zone with the exception of Northern Thanalan due to the chain FATE there.

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Originally Posted by FF2GO

Personally, I don't think mob based experience should be increased. I think that mentality is a direct reflection of the "I want my max level asap" mindset.

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I do want max level ASAP though. I got WHM to 50 back in 1.0, and with the linear way the game works there's nothing I'll be doing as a level 30 SCH/BRD/PLD,etc that I haven't already done before. If I want to progress the plot and unlock new areas/equipment then my other levels need to be at 50 too. The class/job storylines are interesting, but the "now go off and grind 5 more levels because we need to pad this out" really grates the second/third/fourth (or more) time around. As others have said before - FFXIV feels like an MMO designed for a single character, not one that apparently wants you to level up at least two others (for cross-class skills).

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Originally Posted by DMooseJ

I get what you're saying, but slowing FATEs down won't do anything. People will still stand around, they'll just be doing it for longer and it'll make everybody miserable.

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Actually if balanced properly it will do exactly what I'm suggesting. People are going to take the most efficient path. If leve EXP was upped 10x, everyone would be doing leves and FATEs would be dead. If FATEs spawned at a significantly slower rate, people would still do them because they give great rewards, but significantly less people would stand around waiting for them to pop when now other methods have become more competitive and can yield experience in between.

Which if people are then not training FATEs, they will actually be fun to do when one pops near you and your grind party/leve party/questers/etc. stop for a moment to complete it. The only downside of this is that it won't be nearly as mindless as FATEs currently are, which is debatable if it's even a downside.

Fates are big because they don't have queues. It is that simple. Most of my Fate parties are usually 7-8 dps and 0-1 healer and 0-1 tanks. You can't convert that to a dungeon group even if it gave instant level 50 on entering.

That is the crucial flaw of any MMO who attempts party role systems. And it is not solved by nerfing fate respawn times or increasing dungeon exp. No you'd need more drastic changes.

Things that either let us be 1 tank, 1 healer, 6 dps in dungeons, or something that lets us play as tank/healer but get exp on a DPS class. When you have made it possible for people to enter dungeons, THEN you may talk about adjusting exp to make sure people want to go where they CAN GO.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Fates are big because they don't have queues. It is that simple.

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Your rationale is severly flawed. If FATE exp was decreased 75% no one would be doing them. People train FATEs because they are the most efficient means of leveling. If dungeon EXP was tripled and FATE exp halved (I'm not suggesting this), everyone would be doing dungeons. Granted people would be immensely complaining about queue times, but people are only training FATEs because they outclass all other leveling options in terms of speed and difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Vindrax

but people are only training FATEs because they outclass all other leveling options in terms of speed and difficulty.

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False, open world mob farming in party is faster than FATE xp with the only exception being the FATE chain in Northern Thanalan.

Personally, I'd prefer it if they buffed Leves and Guildhests so that they weren't practically useless to level with. In their current form Leves are only useful for crafting classes and Guildhests are useless beyond the 1st time you complete them.

Let them nerf it. Levelling multiple classes past 34 is pointless anyway.

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Originally Posted by Sinth

False, open world mob farming in party is faster than FATE xp with the only exception being the FATE chain in Northern Thanalan.

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hearsay, speculation, conjecture etc!

Notice everyone complaining about fates giving too much exp are the ones who already got level 50 on most of their classes doing said fates? They are the same griefers who decided to kill Lambs on Dark Devices so that others couldn't take advantage of the exp that they were able to get.

yup agree with OP, I feel like FATEs are not giving space to any other content.

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Originally Posted by Tenku

Notice everyone complaining about fates giving too much exp are the ones who already got level 50 on most of their classes doing said fates? They are the same griefers who decided to kill Lambs on Dark Devices so that others couldn't take advantage of the exp that they were able to get.

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Ad hominem. Address the argument, not the person.

I see no alternative to nerfing FATEs: it has raised a generation of players who do not know how to play the game at all, players who show up in level 50 dungeons with GC gear and no understanding whatsoever of their classes, players who can't tank or heal or interrupt or avoid AoE. FATE experience is far too great and the effort far too little. The reward is shared, so if I'm late to the party and get off one Piercing Talon just before NM dies, I still get gold reward. Even if dungeon XP gets a big boost, people will still go the easy route -- no queues, no gear damage, no potential for failure.

You can't cure stupidity.

I do fates, and I know the role in parties. To a large extent because I READ and I ASK and I try and do some dungeons on the way to practice. It is my choice to be good, and their choice to be terrible.

The fates are completely unrelated to this problem. If you are WILLING to learn your role, you can do it fine in a fate party. Not in ALL fates, but a handful of them.

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Originally Posted by Sinth

My question is: How are FATEs generating a negative experience? If you prefer dungeons, go ahead, if you prefer mobs, go ahead, if you prefer leves, go ahead. Something has to be the most efficient. Personally, I'm thankful I am not forced to wait for days in queues so I can get XP from dungeons. The trade-off is this: Dungeons drop loot.

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FATEs generate a bad experience because.....

They provide HUGE XP reward in such a short amount of time for doing practically nothing.

The reward is so great that it makes the other levelling options obsolete and underpopulated, like Dungeons, causing long queues.

The gear rewarded by Dungeons is almost useless since you out level it so quickly and if you run Fates, you don't even need gear for the fat XP rewards, you can level to 50 naked.

I am all for variety and I agree things can never be perfectly balanced so there will always be something that is more efficient but FATEs are broken.

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Originally Posted by neverendingxsin

People worry way too much about what others do.

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This... is one of the biggest problems of the world we live in.

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Originally Posted by neverendingxsin

People worry way too much about what others do.

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Not sure why you wouldn't worry about what other people do, it does have a massive impact on your gameplay wether you want to admit it or not.

So yeah I'll keep caring about what others do.