[dev1058] Say no to the hate meter.

I agree that the hate meter is an unnecessary addition to the game.

I agree with everyone and to just wait and see how it comes out. After that happens and things are not cool then we can try and get it remove.

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Originally Posted by Sevokevo_Royuki

I agree with everyone and to just wait and see how it comes out. After that happens and things are not cool then we can try and get it remove.

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Agree with everyone who? Most people are against it, as far as i can see.

Once people get used to it, it's much harder to get it removed, as some will take it for granted, and whine like hell if their easymode crutch is taken away.
It already exists elsewhere and we already know how (badly) it works. There's no need to "wait and see". It should never see the light of day.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Agree with everyone who? Most people are against it, as far as i can see.

Once people get used to it, it's much harder to get it removed, as some will take it for granted, and whine like hell if their easymode crutch is taken away.
It already exists elsewhere and we already know how (badly) it works. There's no need to "wait and see". It should never see the light of day.

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I think he's saying he agrees with the people who want to see what this "meter" brings to the table, rather than shooting it down because it sounds different from what was present in XI (even though everyone with a brain used windower for features like this).

I don't know of any other game that has a hate meter. I agree with Abriael in saying that people are probably going to use this as a crutch. A hate meter is just going to make this game even easier than it already is.

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Originally Posted by Teknoman

The meter will most likely be optional, just like the enemy icons.

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Optional is weak. The playing field should be the same across the board. Lazy people who like "Options" like this one and enemy icons should go play an easy game and stop ruining good MMORPGs.

Your going to end up with people getting pissed at other people in the same party not using these "Optional" items.

EDIT: more meters on my screen? No thanks.

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Originally Posted by Xeno

FACE IT, when the review comes, the casual reviewers will love this and it'll get a +1 score purely because of it. ACCEPT THE FACTS. 90% of people used windower in XI and now they are implementing windower features so no one uses it in XIV.
Edit: I mean the reviews for the PS3 version.

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This is true. People would end using this anyway so better being an official feature than a third party tool. Also, I see no harm at all in having hate meters ingame as soon as they can be turned on/off.

This is a quote from a post in Gamerescape.com and I agree with this completely

Source: http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/forums/...ic.php?t=14016

"I actually think the enmity display adds skill to the game, not lessens it. Instead of mindless tank spam-provoking, fights become more situational. If I'm a healer, and I see my enmity is low, I know it's safe to throw out a heal. If it's high, I know it's going to be a lot more difficult. If I'm a tank, and my enmity is high, I know I'm able to say, throw out a couple of skills to help incapacitate the head of the mob I'm fighting.

It's like a baseball game where the manager shifts his infield when a pull-hitter comes up. Yes, it makes it "easier" on the infielders, but there's a lot of strategy and preparation involved. If every pitcher pitched the exact same way to every batter, and every fielder stood in the exact same place every pitch, everything just becomes a mindless game devoid of strategy where everyone is doing the same thing every play when they could be doing something to better help the team."


Basically. Yes to the hate meter.

You complain about it, but I bet you will keep it on anyways. Even the best players in MMO I have seen admit to using hate meters.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Agree with everyone who? Most people are against it, as far as i can see.

Once people get used to it, it's much harder to get it removed, as some will take it for granted, and whine like hell if their easymode crutch is taken away.
It already exists elsewhere and we already know how (badly) it works. There's no need to "wait and see". It should never see the light of day.

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It's already too late, now that they've mentioned implementing it. If they decide to remove it now everyone in favor of it will rage. Guess we just have to get used to hate NEVER leaving tanks anymore...boring... Hate management is one of the key elements in skill, and now it's gone out the window. Who needs to think at all anymore when you can just look at a meter?

I don't know. To me it seems that they're designing this game not for casuals, but for people with lower than average intelligence. I'm very disappointed with this, although the rest of the info looks great.

I waited a bit before I made my first gut reaction....

At the end of the day, I would rather pay more attention to the monster itself, watching for signs and clues that might hint at its behavior than stare at a bar that tells me how to play.

I would also like to point out WHY aggro bars are now common in MMOs. In World of Warcraft they were an addon that was created in order for players to make up for a defeciency in the game itself. WoW offered no clues as to the relative aggro of a monster and its combatants. Various programs were created in order to solve this.

Creating a feature like this is a step back in game development, as rather developers are simply compensating for something rather than solving the underlying problem.

In my opinion I don't see many problems as to why we can't have a hate meter so as long has the target has associated behaviors. When ranking up a job, in a sense you are training in that profession. Having a player learning the behavior of various targets while having a hate meter would teach players much how the game works. However! NM's, Boss Battles or anything else in that category should have the hate meter in a '???' form or just blank all together. This to me would force the player to use what they have learned to defeat it.

Just to clarify, what I mean by behaviors, the target should animate with stances and abilities that are focused on whoever has the hate.

We should hope by now they know we like things to be toggle-able on and off....

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Originally Posted by Reika

We should hope by now they know we like things to be toggle-able on and off....

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Indeed. It not only adds versatibility to game but also will please greeks and troyans.

I was excited for the hate meter at first but now I feel like it could take away a lot of the fun of battles. I always was good at games where I fought the computer as the computer was predictably, but I was really bad once I played against people online as I never knew what they were going to do. Making mobs predictable is a step backwards in terms of difficulty.

But I can also see the side that says that the meter will add a lot of strategy to the game for some. I think there may be an easy compromise for this.

They had mentioned a new "materia" system for the crafters. If the aggro gauge was made into an upgrade for the armor then there would be the ability to use it for those who want it, but rewards for those who don't. Because, as everyone who has played a lot of MMO's knows, giving equipment an ability like that means that the armor is generally weaker stat wise. That way those who need the meter have it, but those who are really good at keeping and understanding hate without the meter get better stats from the armor.

I vote yes to the Hate meter!

Adding a toggle is pointless. This isn't a matter of immersion or aesthetics. This changes how people play their jobs. A toggle will do nothing to counter what we're concerned about.

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Originally Posted by Tsuga

So tanks spamming voke when they could be doing something more useful = skill? Could've fooled me.

This will lead to more strategic planning of skill/spell usage by everyone in the party, and that's just using the current battle system.

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Here's what I don't get.... People are talking about how a hate meter "allows party to strategize"... as though they couldn't without it.

In FFXI - even well before Windower was introduced with its add-on hate meter... people strategized and learned how far they could push it with the DD and when they had to pull back. Healers learned to balance HoTs with direct heals in order to keep the HP from falling without taking aggro.

Players with that kind of experience often provided tips to others who also benefitted from them and passed them on to other players.

It was all learned organically and it was always a blast when that knowledge was brought to bear, such as in a longer-than-usual and difficult encounter where that kind of knowledge really made the difference between a party wiping or succeeding.

Some of the most epic and memorable encounters I've had that were near wipes were won because the players brought their skills and knowledge of aggro and aggro management to bear, and coordinated effectively to turn things around. We didn't have a meter telling us how ticked off the mob was at a given person. We'd developed an intuition for it over having fought a given enemy a number times and learning their behavior, etc.

We communicated, we adapted and we overcame. No meters necessary.

Adding a hate meter completely removes the dynamic of that. It removes the balancing act because the player no longer has to feel out how things are flowing, because it's spelled out for them right on the screen. All they need to do is follow the rising or falling hate % and respond accordingly. -snore-

It's just one more thing that removes the player from the game by doing it for them.

So... again, I can understand people preferring a hate meter because they don't want to have to pay that much attention.. but to argue that it "introduces strategy to it" as though it doesn't without one just rings very hollow to me.

In most cases when I've seen people pushing for the use of hate meters is because it provided one more safe-guard against a group wipe and helped ensure a victory; just like "having the optimal build", "following the best guides", "having the optimal party/raid setup", etc.

All those things are used to eliminate strategy and challenge from the game and replace it with predictability and color-by-the-numbers routines. To me, that makes the game less interesting... not more.


I happen to agree with the OP. If SE's goal is to make combat more challenging and require more skill, then I would definitely promote players learning and honing a skill such as tracking or maintaining aggro-management... without a meter telling them where things stand.

In my opinion, MMOs have gone way too far in providing "helpers" and "add-ons" and such that are designed solely to remove the need for players to learn and master certain gameplay elements themselves. They're a crutch, just like the OP stated. As a result, I also believe players - generally speaking - have become far too dependent on them.

Abriael, I agree with you on many things, but I just can't agree on this one.

I understand the point the naysayers are making, and personally, I'm right there with you on it. Being good at what I do certainly appeals to me. But the hate meter is still a tool, not a crutch. Would you look down on a logger for using a chainsaw instead of on ax? Do you want a doctor to cut out a "tumor" that he just "felt" rather than x-rayed? Technology that helps people be better at their jobs isn't necessarily a bad thing. (Technology that literally does someone's job altogether is another story, like auto-pilot :/ )

If someone wants to use hate meters as a tool so they can do their job more efficiently, who has the right to tell them how to enjoy the game? Not everyone can be Luke Skywalker; some will be better off using their instruments. If you don't want to use them, you don't have to.

As for people "requiring" hate meters, no one can make anyone do anything they don't want to. If someone "required" addons, I'd just either ignore it or move on to a different group. It would also be as easy to make a LS that requires everything to be toggled off as much as one that requires all toggles on.

Hate meter is for noobs! That's all.

The hate meter isn't going away. At most they'll allow you to toggle it on and off. In Matsui's letter, the first section talks about how they want to develop skillful play. One of the things they wanted to solve was the lack of information needed for skillful play and having a hate meter helps them do that. We could possibly see the inclusion of many things that you guys see as n00bish, but it's a part of their plan to make the system enjoyable for everyone.

I vote Yes and No.

My first reaction when I read Matsui's letter was the same as OP, however there isn't enough information to make an informed decision. This is one of very few specific features he spoke about weighed against very vague promises of more "strategic play".

Hate teh hate meter!
If game mechanics fall short of our expectations or generally stay consistent with what we're accustomed to in other games, then the hate meter becomes a crutch. It removes the necessity for a skill of intuition to be gained through experience for certain classes/jobs (tanks). This is the same skill of intuition that's required for ALL other hidden algorithms of the game. Yes, we can run tests and parses to make estimates and theories of underlying mechanics, but skill in these games often relies heavily on being able to mentally manage these unknown variables in the moment based on past experience using what clues we are given ie. the mob turns to slap you around, or your told there are iron nuggets above where you're mining.

Hate meter = Yes, please!
We all have hopes and dreams that the new battle system will meet our (probably unrealistic) expectations of complexity and strategy. In such dreams I can fully see the addition of a hate meter adding balance to make other, new battle mechanics more manageable. This still means the hate meter is a crutch, but if there's a demand for a high degree of skill in other/new areas of a class during battle and the hate meter allows for slightly more manageable timing, then it may provide to be a valuable element.

Moral of the story...
If they're going to add a crutch, then they better add more complexity as well to maintain balance. We have no idea if this is true based on what we've been told so far.

I def say no.

I don't see how "Fostering Skillful Play" and a hate meter go along at all.
Oh great, so now we just can turn off our brains completly? Yea, that's really fostering skillful play.

Honestly it would be better to speculate what it could or wouldnt be used for, rather than just a blunt yes or no. We dont even know how it looks or how it really works yet.

I’m completely indifferent to the hate meter idea. I do agree that it is unnecessary; however it won’t hinder my enjoyment of the game one bit because I can and will ignore it 95% of the time, or hopefully toggle it off if I want. Let the people have a hate meter if they want, no one is forcing you to use it.

After reading about the battleplan blueprint, i'm glad with almost all the changes that SE is going to make except the hate meter... I mean c'mon seriously do we need a "HATE METER"???

Reason why i say no to the hate system is because if we do indeed get a hate meter it will spoil all the fun for the game. I still remember being a tanker for my LS during ffxi and part of the fun is learning how to control hate and how to maintain it. Think about it, with the difficulty of the current mob and IF WE DO GET A HATE METER, it will seems to be that ffxiv will be in EASY MODE"OVERDRIVE" and i personally do not want to be the laughing stock of the whole MMO community for playing such game...

It will also cut down the thrill of something going wrong. True, it's good when everything is in order and went on smoothly but guys do you still remember the fun that you have when you first started out learning the hate thereshold and finally mastering it, haha such is the fun of what i would like to call "Trial and Error" ^^

So ya i'll stick to my decision, PLEASE SAY NO TO THE HATE METER 0_o

YES TO THE HATE METER! Why? Because most of the people are saying no to it. I know how to track hate and so does the rest of my linkshell, but just because so many people are against something that will make the noobs better, I'm going to say BRING IT!

My 2 cents: i say yes to hate meter BUT if can be hidden. It's a good tool and it's pointless don't desire it if you find useful

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Originally Posted by Chezen

Abriael, I agree with you on many things, but I just can't agree on this one.

I understand the point the naysayers are making, and personally, I'm right there with you on it. Being good at what I do certainly appeals to me. But the hate meter is still a tool, not a crutch. Would you look down on a logger for using a chainsaw instead of on ax? Do you want a doctor to cut out a "tumor" that he just "felt" rather than x-rayed? Technology that helps people be better at their jobs isn't necessarily a bad thing. (Technology that literally does someone's job altogether is another story, like auto-pilot :/ )

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For the chainsaw versus axe comparison... Not really a good comparison. Both will do the job, and there's little learning involved with how to swing an axe at a tree, or how to use a chainsaw on it. It's a self-explanatory activity in either case. There are plenty of people who fell their own trees or do their own lumber work who aren't professional lumberjacks.

Further, whether they're using an axe or a chainsaw... they still need to learn how to use each most most effectivel. That only comes through hands-on experience, to gain skill in it. There's no artificial, outside meter or gauge telling them where to hit, or how to hit or from what angle. They have to gain that knowledge themself... by doing it, by learning what methods get the best results.

Further still, the comparison of Axe to Chainsaw is really more akin to Dagger versus Great sword. Both get the job done, one potentially does it faster. Both require time and practice to use effectively which, again, is only gained through hands-on experience.

As for the doctor "feeling" for a tumor rather than "scanning" for it. I actually said "Really?" out loud to this one. You are really comparing something that's a matter of life or death... to something in a video game? If I go to the doctor with a tumor and there's a chance it's cancerous, you bet your ass I'm going to want the most accurate and reliable means used to determine if it's malignant or not. You make a mistake in a game, you can learn from it and correct it. You get another chance to correct it. A doctor mis-diagnoses a tumor as being "nothing serious" and it could cost you your life. No do-overs. Horrible, horrible analogy.

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Originally Posted by Chezen

If someone wants to use hate meters as a tool so they can do their job more efficiently, who has the right to tell them how to enjoy the game? Not everyone can be Luke Skywalker; some will be better off using their instruments. If you don't want to use them, you don't have to.

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Because, again, it takes away one more element of the game for players to learn and master on their own, just like having clearly marked spots on a map for quests takes away the element of players having to actually pay attention to what's required of them, or of having to actually quest for their objective. It's just like how ! over NPCs heads takes away the factor of having to actually interact with NPCs, learn about them and see what they want, reducing them from residents of a virtual world, to being little more than anonymous quest dispensers.

It is a crutch because without a meter, players have to learn different mobs' behavior to see how they respond to different tactics or strategies and learn which ones to employ in what circumstances. Without one, players have to pay attention to their own actions, develop a rhythm or pacing to their attacks/heals/tanking to help keep aggro under control. Without one, groups have to better communicate and be aware of what's happening with their other party members (healers have to pay attention to HP to see if aggro has switched, etc).

With a hate meter, all of that is removed because now all players have to do is watch the hate bars to see what's giong on, and respond accordingly.

In either case, "strategy" is being used to take on enemies. The difference is in what that strategy is based on. Is it based on hands-on experience with a mobs behaviors, strengths, weaknesses and proven tactics for establishing and controlling aggro that are proven to work? Or, is it based on what some little % bars indicate somewhere on the screen? To me, the former is far more interesting, challenging and entertaining than the latter.

Aggro management - not only actively as a tank, but passively as a DD or healer - is definitely a skill that is learned, improved and honed over time. Adding a hate meter eliminates a large chunk of that skill from even being necessary.

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Originally Posted by Chezen

As for people "requiring" hate meters, no one can make anyone do anything they don't want to. If someone "required" addons, I'd just either ignore it or move on to a different group. It would also be as easy to make a LS that requires everything to be toggled off as much as one that requires all toggles on.

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I can agree with you there in principal. I've always had the same attitude. My time, my money, my choice.

However, I've also had a tougher time progressing through various MMOs because of my attitude. I was left out of a number of events because I refused to use certain add-ons, or to employ certain tactics that - to me - removed "me" too much from what was going on, and made it less interesting.

Sadly, there are many players who are absolutely 100% dependent on add-ons to remove as much of the risk and chance of error as possible, making the encounter as predictable as they can to guarantee a victory. Unfortunately, many of these people also demand that everyone else do the same as they do... or you're not invited.

If hate meters are in the game, having them toggle-able would be moot. The players who absolutely depend on them will demand they're being used by everyone in their group at all times. It happens in every other MMO I've played with such things... No reason to believe it won't happen in XIV either.

That's kind of the irony of people saying "who are you to tell others how to play?". People who are completely dependent on using add-ons have absolutely no qualms with telling people "how to play" on a regular basis. Such people will also tell you what gear to use, what spec to go with, what buffs to have, what class to play, etc.

I'm not trying to tell anyone "how to play". All I'm saying is forget the aggro meter and let the players learn how to gauge and control hate through hands-on gameplay, paying attention and so forth... Good old trial and error.

All this damn thing is doing is displaying information. Why are you all so afraid of seeing information?

The only "skill" it takes out of tanking is having to guess whether or not you're holding hate well and wondering how long you'll be able to keep it. You still have to know how to tank properly, meter or not. If you don't know how to tank properly than you're going to lose hate either way. Works the same for DD, if you don't know how to manage your hate on your class then you're going to pull it with or without the meter. All the meter does is take out the speculation involved with it.

The hate meter can actually be a decent tool for teaching newer players especially how to properly manage hate on their job. You can show them right then and there who their actions are effecting the enmity flow in battle. You have an accurate means of showing them how to manage their hate in a variety of ways.

I'm pretty neutral on the whole thing though. I could do without it but I can see how it would be useful.

Too much change coming alongside this to have a clear picture to speculate now.MAYBE it sucks MAYBE its awesome. I say wait. See it, before you judge it. :)

Chances are no matter how much we argue about it, this is still getting implemented whether we like it or not. I would suggest SE to wait until the public test server is operational and let us test it there first.

I understand both sides of the argument but I'm still highly against this. I prefer to learn through my actions, not by being told when to back off. People make mistakes for a reason, to learn from them. With this implemented there is no margin for error and hate management suddenly becomes stale. Out of all the hidden variables in this game, this should have been the last thing to consider making visible.

As someone suggested, in another thread I think, I would much prefer a color coded system instead of seeing raw percentages. At least with that there is still some level uncertainty. And to me, uncertainty plays a big part in a fun and challenging battle system.

There is still margin for error, mostly if you're unskilled and don't know how to play your job properly. I guarantee you even with the hate meter in place people who don't care or don't pay attention will still screw up. At that point however there is nowhere else to place the blame, it lies solely on the player.

@Preypacer

Whatever you might have thought about my examples, you got the purpose of them. Yes it's a game, but hate meters have to do with the life or death of the party. There has probably been thousands of skills, far better examples than the ones off the top of my head I'm sure, that has been lost over time due to modern technology. If you are going to call it a crutch, you will have to call those advances crutches as well. In the meantime, someone who might have otherwise been very good at a job except needing that one tool, might be less successful at his job, and be overlooked due to poor performance.

There is more to each job than just watching aggro. A good tank keeps an eye on the entire party’s needs, making sure everyone is ready before beginning the fight. A good healer watches the party’s back, and compensates for the party until they can respond to whatever threat came from left field. A good dps knows to help keep aggro off the healer. These are things no tools will compensate for.

As for telling someone how to play, that comes from both sides. I’m sorry you were refused by so many, but that just suggests that the majority like and want addons. I personally never used any, other than a dmg meter to measure my performance, and whatever was built in the game. But by saying no one should use a meter, you are effectively telling people they should play like you. That is why the toggles have been made available. Anyone who wants to be that skilled, or have the mystery in the fight, can if they choose.

I agree Arcell. There will definitely be players who either don't care or don't pay attention. But that's more of a matter of ignorance, not player skill. But for players who want to do their best this tool simply tells them "don't worry, just listen to me and you'll be fine." It almost completely takes human intelligence out of the equation. The only thing you now have to focus on, in terms of hate management, is not hitting 100% enmity. For me, that's boring. The more predictable a battle becomes the less interesting it is.

You're still going to play pretty much exactly how you were before, you'll just know the state of your aggro now. If you know how to manage it without the meter you'll be doing pretty much the same thing with the meter.

Also having the meter allows you to push the limits of what you can do without having to worry about pulling hate. If you know you've got a decent amount of leeway with the hate you can go crazy and try things you may not have been willing to do so before without knowing.

All this does is take the guess work and speculation out. The mechanics work the exact same way with or without the meter.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

You're still going to play pretty much exactly how you were before, you'll just know the state of your aggro now. If you know how to manage it without the meter you'll be doing pretty much the same thing with the meter.

Also having the meter allows you to push the limits of what you can do without having to worry about pulling hate. If you know you've got a decent amount of leeway with the hate you can go crazy and try things you may not have been willing to do so before without knowing.

All this does is take the guess work and speculation out. The mechanics work the exact same way with or without the meter.

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I didn't think about it that way Arcell, but I think you're right.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

You're still going to play pretty much exactly how you were before, you'll just know the state of your aggro now. If you know how to manage it without the meter you'll be doing pretty much the same thing with the meter.

Also having the meter allows you to push the limits of what you can do without having to worry about pulling hate. If you know you've got a decent amount of leeway with the hate you can go crazy and try things you may not have been willing to do so before without knowing.

All this does is take the guess work and speculation out. The mechanics work the exact same way with or without the meter.

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This is basically the same exact thing I said but presented in a positive way.

Let's just agree to disagree lol.

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I understand the point the naysayers are making, and personally, I'm right there with you on it. Being good at what I do certainly appeals to me. But the hate meter is still a tool, not a crutch. Would you look down on a logger for using a chainsaw instead of on ax? Do you want a doctor to cut out a "tumor" that he just "felt" rather than x-rayed? Technology that helps people be better at their jobs isn't necessarily a bad thing. (Technology that literally does someone's job altogether is another story, like auto-pilot :/ )

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FYI, A logger uses a chainsaw because they are there to make money, not have fun and challenge themselves.... and a doctor is saving lives.... not making a game out of your tumor.... Playing FFXIV is an extra activity, not a job, thats why everybody against these "Tools" are against these "tools". Go chop out tumors with a chainsaw somewhere else (Yeah, I mixed your analogies!)

Like it has been said before, once everyone becomes dependent on these game ruining crutches, anyone who doesn't use them will be frowned upon creating problems ingame. People are going to wonder why you didn't voke at the OPTIMAL time according to this hate meter and then stop playing with you when they find out you don't use it. Stop fooling yoursleves.

I would also have to say yes to the hate meeter. As someone who will be playing the healer it would be a great help.