No fight favours SCH+SCH because there is no synergy. Sacred Soil/Succor/Adloquim don't stack in any way.Quote:
Originally Posted by ApolloGenX
Scholars - missing the point
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10-12-2013, 12:23 AMGarnatian
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10-12-2013, 12:38 AMPiedPiperPretty sure he was responding to my post about the binding coil turn 1 fight actually favoring two scholars. Which, it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnatian
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10-12-2013, 12:46 AMAmraThis is the appeal for me as well. The class has a nice high skill ceiling with lots to do. I love that I can remove a lot of the useless dps skills from my bar (or deprioritize their keybindings) in favor of more useful pet abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by KomoChameleon
I have two issues though:
1) Is there really no way to make your pet just shut up and listen to your commands instead of free casting whatever the heck it wants?
2) The support pet Embrace and healing pet embrace are two different abilities for whatever stupid reason, so if I switch pets on the fly i can't just continue with the same keybindings. -
10-12-2013, 01:11 AMGarnatianPlease tell me how the fight benefits at all from a double SCH.Quote:
Originally Posted by PiedPiper
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10-12-2013, 01:51 AMPiedPiperThe fight is two big snakes pounding two different tanks int eh face. Sch excells at main tank healing. There is no raid damage. Since they are healing different targets, their buffs don't interract and thus don't conflict. Course that assumes you do the whole, split them up and tank them seperate method rather than kite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnatian
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10-12-2013, 06:13 AMKurokujo
I stay away from using steady, and instead use obey. From what I've noticed the fairy will still autocast Embrace (which is fine with me because she almost always heals the target I want her to anyway) but won't use any of the cooldown abilities like whispering dawn. She will stay in obey mode until you change her out of it, but you have to have an enemy targeted to initiate it.
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10-12-2013, 11:15 AMSyncnessWait what?Quote:
Originally Posted by PiedPiper
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10-12-2013, 05:19 PMAralePretty sure WHM beats SCH in main tank healing. It's like people don't know Divine Seal is a thing. I pop that and my cure II's are making Lustrate look really, really bad. I pay for that in mana, but that plus Benediction allows me to keep up with heavy hits that Lustrate will not. Even if you have Lustrate, outside of that SCH lack raw healing power to keep up on excessive damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by PiedPiper
Just my 2c. -
10-12-2013, 05:38 PMCelsius
Lol these WHM's think they are king of the hill. Just get over the fact that sch can tank heal better. we've done up to turn 4 with 2 sch's. and turn 1 DOES favor 2 sch's we dont let our tank get low to where we have to pop a huge cooldown and on the off-chance that they do (they dont) we have 3-6 lustrates ready to use plus the fact that its not a huge wwaste to use on someone other than a tank since we have them 3 times per 1 min. You dont beat us in Main tank healing lmfao. Not at all. i can pop rouse fey illumination and use phsyic for 1.4k physics and 800-900 fairy heals if we want to get technical. and that isnt counting crits AND the spell speed buff rofl.
Edit: forgot to add in the fact that i can also put her on steady again (this is annoying) and cast whispering dawn for a party wide regen effect. and there is certain places i can put her for her to only MT heal. WHM has that niche burst healing but sch is safer (this is coming from our tanks) i've done SCH/SCH WHM/SCH. WHM/SCH deff easier though. its not all about raw healing power if you like huge numbers go WHM. if you know what your doing, you can bring alot more to a raid (in terms of MT healing) than a whm can.
Its like People dont know divine seal only has a 33% uptime. you dont understand the concept of a scholar lmfao. you can make lustrate look bad? its an ability i use 3 times every one minute and usually use on a random dps that i dont feel like wasting a physick on. I want you to watch a video or a stream of a SCH/SCH doing titan. if they are any good the tanks wont go under 75%. and the sch's will be almost full HP.
Not gonna let you WHM elitsts take away the fact that SCH's do something way better than you. (granted they know what they are doing) -
10-12-2013, 06:37 PMAnnana
Scholars are incredibly useful as-is.
Sure, they could use some Quality of Life updates to pet control, but their healing capabilities are perfect as they are. Aside from the issue of stacking SCH shields, that is. -
10-12-2013, 07:34 PMEsponBenediction is on a on a 5 minute cooldown and is meant for emergencies, where as Lustrate can be used up to 3 times a minute and is off the GCD. They really shouldn't even be compared. You're also forgetting that we have a fairy to help compliment our healing, and can get a +40% boost from Rouse if need be (which is kind of similar to Divine Seal in a way). Adioquium also has an effective rate of 600 due to its shield (which doubles on a crit), and that shield helps cushion the hits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arale
I'm not saying Scholar is the better main tank healer, but they definitely have the tools to do it very well. -
10-12-2013, 11:05 PMApolloGenX
^^ Agree with the above... plus the Adloquium heal+shield works well with the pet heal at the same time for a nice sized tank heal/shield.
The SCH has more reliable, more readily available tank healing abilities... the whm has CDs to help deal with it, but the SCH toolset/pet is imo better for tank healing.
Depending on length of fight, non-procced Cure 2s eat mana, but SCH can keep up sustainable tank healing forever without a bard. -
10-13-2013, 07:55 AMAraleI'm not saying they can't do the role, I'm just saying I believe WHM does it better. Lustrate needs to be per minute because its not a full heal. Benediction can bring a about to be dead tank back to a full HP tank. This lets the WHM focus on throwing other heals out or doing something else like removing status effects and what not. It has a long cooldown, but full HP restore is the ultimate clutch. While the SCH is still throwing lustrates out, a WHM is already doing other things on the battle check list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Espon
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10-13-2013, 09:37 AMDenzelTaruTook my FC members to Hydra > Ifrit > Garuda.. We had a PUG WHM from outside Hydra.. His HPS was 106.. mine was 146 + 64 from pet.. I agree with you, we are not a heal face hits job but when you have such terrible support as i did today, i do a very good job of healing face too lol.. just requires alot more planning of your aetherflow stacks leaving some free for energy drainsQuote:
Originally Posted by KomoChameleon
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10-13-2013, 04:03 PMSaiyanbob
Lustrate can be used almost 3 times in a single global. This means a SCH (if they used all Aetherflow on Lustrate) gets a 60 percent HP heal over a single global every 60 seconds compared to a WHM 5 min CD. No Comparison. Also the shield from Adlo and Succor DOUBLE when there is a Crit so if you crit Adlo for 1100 (My Average Crit on a Paladin) the Shield is 2200 making the effective Heal 3300 with 2200 of that being impossible to overheal.
Combine that with the fact that Rouse+Whispering Dawn -> Sacred Soil -> Virus with Eye for an Eye thrown in any time its off CD can make it so the tank recieves ~ 10 percent less dmg for all but 6 seconds in a minute.
Also I am not sure how much a WHM's Cure is in Coil level gear but Adlo for me on average is around 750 with a 750 shield making it about 1500 + Fairy Embrace for about 700ish at the same time. That's 2300 in a Global.
If you think SCH aren't just as good at tank healing as a WHM or better you simply dont know SCH. -
10-14-2013, 04:22 AMGarnatianSuccor doesn't double, only Adlo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saiyanbob
Embrace isn't on the GCD, it's longer by around 0.6s depending on your gear. That and the fact that you either have to not be healing, or have used an instant to use it on your desired target and then you have to take into account that it requires an extra button press, in no way is it 2 Heals in 2 GCD.
Why are you comparing Cure and Adlo? It's Cure 2 you should compare it with and if you compare it, Cure II has a potency of 650 and costs less MP while Adlo has a potency of 600.
In terms of Tank healing, SCH and WHM are on par, it's the disparity in AoE healing that is the main issue.
The main issue with abilities that can simultaneously heal and shield is that fact that chaining the abilities yields to inefficient results since in most cases, by the time the 2nd cast has finished, the shield will still exist on the target. Now, the way you get around this is to simply allow for a heal that has a smaller potency, but no shield which is exactly what they did for Adlo by having Physick, however for some strange reason, they completely forgot about it for Succor meaning chain casting Succor just leads to very inefficient results so what SCH need is essnetially an AoE Physick the same way that Succor is an AoE Adlo. -
10-14-2013, 07:35 PMVortokThis bugged me at first too, especially with Succor. Eventually I realized, though, that Scholars have way better mana management/regen than WHM. A Scholar can afford to be inefficient. People are full, completely wasting half the spell, but you know an AOE is coming so you pre-cast Succor? A Scholar can waste half the spell and be fine. Repeatedly. We can rez multiple people and still finish the fight at full MP in some situations. For a WHM that's almost a pipe dream. When you consider that, the inefficiency of the shield spells in some situations (spamming or precasting) isn't as bad as it first appears.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnatian
I do agree with the sentiment that the Scholar requires a bit more fight knowledge (particularly in relation to aoes) to perform well... but it somehow seems fitting that a Scholar requires knowledge to do well, hehe. -
10-14-2013, 09:38 PMeronaile
How do I prevent fairies from using certain skills automatically? I tried to use 'Obey' command but it just pops up the error message 'Invalid target'.
If I draw their skills in my own skill bars, do they still use them automatically? -
10-15-2013, 05:30 AMsosowie
Obey requires that you first have a mob targeted. In Obey, a faerie will cast Embrace and (unfortunately) Whispering Dawn on her own.
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10-15-2013, 05:32 AMJonFarronQuote:
Originally Posted by sosowie
Use Steady, she will only use Embrace. -
10-15-2013, 05:52 AMGarnatianPretty worthless. She "un-steadys" if you try to use Embrace. So you lose out on healing either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFarron
You have to target an enemy.Quote:
Originally Posted by eronaile
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10-15-2013, 06:16 AMMelithea
SCH shouldn't be as good at healing as WHM. If they are, something is wrong because then WHM is obsolete.
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10-15-2013, 06:21 AMDarkGhost368Really? because SCH's don't fill a "healer role" they fill the backseat healer role, obviously next to a whm. Lets change the duty finder people. 1 Tank, 2 dps 1 WHM, and a backseat healer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melithea
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10-15-2013, 06:33 AMAlu79Here we go...Quote:
Originally Posted by Melithea
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10-15-2013, 07:22 AMdragonflyseksparade
If SE just added really bright flashing animations to represent shields, maybe scholars would then understand their role.
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10-15-2013, 07:28 AMAlu79lol just keeps getting better and better..Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonflyseksparade
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10-15-2013, 07:42 AMKalakbar
A Scholar's class defining feature isn't the shielding that is attached to two of their heals--it's the faerie. Shields are part of the Scholar toolkit, just as Regen is part of the White Mage's toolkit. This isn't WoW where a Priest has tools like Spirit Shell or Power Word: Shield. A Scholar's role is healing, with shielding being part of that role.
Which is better? That depends a great deal on the situation. In a raid, having both a SCH and a WHM is preferable, with each bringing different tools to the table. A White Mage has an easy time dealing with huge raidwide damage, while a Scholar is better able to support a tank who is getting hit for 2-3k every few seconds. You can certainly healing through AoE damage as a Scholar, just as a White Mage can keep up a tank taking heavy damage, but it will be harder and less MP efficient for you to do so.
In short, stop bickering. Both are main healers who work very well together. -
10-15-2013, 08:55 AMMelitheaContribute something or stop posting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alu79
That's my point. SCH already have better damage mitigation and infinite MP. If you give them burst healing, they'll do literally everything that matters better than or equal to a WHM. Why the hell are we the only mage class without infinite MP, anyway? I want to redraw those straws.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkGhost368
WHM/SCH > WHM/WHM > SCH/SCH
It needs to stay this way. (And yes, I have both at 50) -
10-15-2013, 10:10 AMAlu79Lol and there it is..Quote:
Originally Posted by Melithea
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10-15-2013, 12:56 PMBrandoH
Life's so good when we have 1 WHM and 1 good SCH in the party. <3
If every SCH works on their micro-management skills, they'd make Eorzea a better place. -
10-15-2013, 01:21 PMMaku
You can combat the steady to guard stupididty by using Obey. This works for everything on Selene but unfortunitally Eos will still spam Whispering. I am just hoping they fix the switching but I have learned to deal with it. I duo SCHd Titan last night and found it rather easy so personally I don't think the above order is correct. Should be WHM/SCH > WHM/WHM ≥ SCH/SCH
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10-15-2013, 10:41 PMDarkGhost368I wish I could.. problem is I have to choice between letting my fairy embrace on its own which is slower and less efficient then myself managing it, put it on obey and react to the random eos whispering dawn load blowing or put it on steady and constantly have to put it back on steady after pretty much any action wasting time that is better used using one of my other skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandoH
Then I can't even macro the pet skills to streamline the process.. -
10-15-2013, 11:10 PMPiedPiper
@ People complaining fairy comes off steady if you use embrace.... why are you using embrace manually? As was said on earlier pages of the threat, place your fairy correctly and you will never need to manually cast embrace. This also answers the whm apologist talking about how embrace staggers your gcd and requires extra button presses: no, it doesn't. Fairy should be placed correctly in which case she will auto-cast on correct targets full time.
@ Bene vs Lustrate: Bene is too slow. It suffers from the same problem hallowed ground does: both of these skills are delayed by the animation, meaning they aren't actually instant, they are a second or so slower than the button press. Lustrate, however, is actually instant. This alone makes it stronger. Bene's use isn't actually about full healing the target, its about preventing the next attack from killing the target. yes the full heal is nice, but the 20% to make them live long enough to cast on them is what maters. Also, lustrate being off gcd and up nearly all the time makes it much more useful. Bene is a 5 minute tool which has to be used sparingly, lustrate is a tool that's almost always available. If you play a lot of scholar and go back to whm, its easy to begin to feel like whm is painfully slow.
Experience: both healing relics, raiding through turn 4. -
10-15-2013, 11:42 PMDarkGhost368One, sometimes I don't want to wait for the <80% (maybe 75%) for the fairy to decide hey its time to heal. Two, triage because some people are not as important as others in some circumstances. Three, split healing rather then having to reposition my fairy to heal say some ranged dps for maintenance heals I can just cast embrace on said dps and let said fairy make it work while keeping myself focused on the tank who is more likely to take spiked damage. Five, its my damn fairy I should be able to do what I want with her without having combat broken game mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by PiedPiper
Yes, fairy placement is very important, I still would like to have the amount of control that I desire and apparently some others as well. -
10-16-2013, 12:40 AMKalakbarThis, pretty much. Manually casting Embrace constantly also has the added benefit of higher uptime of the spell haste buff from your pet critting.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkGhost368
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10-16-2013, 12:49 AMGarnatianThere's no such thing as "Micro-managing" your fairy. The most efficient way to use your fairy is to constantly hit Embrace through the entire fight in-between all your heals.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandoH
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10-16-2013, 08:14 AMYanDere
WHM + SCH gives at least a good 50% of win probability than 2WHM or, worse, 2SCH.
The WHM heals HPs and casts Stoneskin at the beginning, SCH buffs either dps or heal to get the party to their maximum potential.
You can have a bad party and competent WHM+SCH and win a Titan HM run. -
10-16-2013, 08:13 PMMiiu
Funfact: A competent player is always better than an incompetent one.
But it still doesn't change the fact that 2x whms > 2x sch.
As far as I understand what people want is the following:
2x whm = 2x sch but still underperform the 1x whm 1x sch combo and there is nothing wrong with that. Nobody wants the other class to be inferior. -
10-16-2013, 08:16 PMHysterior
4 man group: SCH > WHM
8 man group: WHM+SCH > WHM+WHM > SCH+SCH
that's how I see it
but I did SCH+SCH until Garuda with no problem
I cannot say about Titan though... -
10-17-2013, 02:27 AMCelsius
I've finished turn 4 with SCH/SCH and it went amazing. we CAN aoe heal enrage and the tank heals are amazing with 2 sch's and 2 eos's it was pretty easy. dont underestimate SCH+SHC guys! just need to be coordinated