Endwalker Monk — Feedback, suggestions, etc.

I’ve only casually leveled but there’s three things that were giving me a nagging feeling.

Twin snakes and Demolish feel like they’re falling off a lot more compared to ShB. I don’t know if it’s just me being crazy or misremembering but it feels like I’m dropping those two effects a lot more in End compared to Shb. Maybe increase the timer on twin snakes my an extra second or two, demolish is harder to say though because of server ticks and buffs affecting it though.
HW leveling was stripped completely bare. You get Forbidden chakra at level 52 and your blitzes at level 60, one of these is just an upgrade to a preexisting skill so in practice you get one new button. There should be something else added at this level to help make it more interesting, and personally I think they should add in Fist of Fire/Wind/Earth and make them into weaker versions of the riddles. Like Fist of fire into a 5% damage buff, Wind into an auto attack delay of 30%, and Earth into a single stack version of riddle of earth.
Finally the Chakra system should be expanded to hold more chakra. It’s the only job that doesn’t have any leeway in its use like other gauges like the Kenki gauge, Heat gauge or shroud gauge. Just make it hold 7 chakra and keep Forbidden chakra at a cost of 5 would do wonders and be more lore accurate to.

As a relatively new Monk main, my only real complaint is that true strike and snap punch are just a little too bland animation wise.

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Originally Posted by CasterSvarog

I’ve only casually leveled but there’s three things that were giving me a nagging feeling.

Twin snakes and Demo feel like they’re falling off a lot more compared to ShB. I don’t know if it’s just me being crazy or misremembering but it feels like I’m dropping those two effects a lot more in End compared to Shb. Maybe increase the timer on twin snakes my an extra second or two, demolish is harder to say though because of server ticks and buffs affecting it though.

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As far as I know the twin snakes timer is virtually the same as in ShB, where if you alternating between it and true strike you will have plenty of leeway to keep the buff up. Same with demo. Where I’m guessing you might be having difficulties in keeping them
up is different PB Windows, especially if you do two in a row. I would check out the wesk alber guide since you are leveling and he will show you how the opener evolves as you level. (https://youtu.be/TTJQQRlcBXg) This will give you an idea of how to do PB windows without dropping your buffs. Also check out the balance discord, which you probably already know about. There is some awkwardness at the end of your burst where disciplined fist runs out after your last free opo GCD but that was a problem with SHB PB windows as well, worse actually.

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Originally Posted by CasterSvarog

HW leveling was stripped completely bare. You get Forbidden chakra at level 52 and your blitzes at level 60, one of these is just an upgrade to a preexisting skill so in practice you get one new button. There should be something else added at this level to help make it more interesting

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I agree with this, that’s an extremely slow 10 levels. I think they could maybe bring enlightenment down to 56 or 58 to make it similar to the Ninja leveling experience in stormblood so you get both the AOE and single target guage spenders. However this would be bad for the ShB levels so they’ll need to figure that out.

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Originally Posted by CasterSvarog

There should be something else added at this level to help make it more interesting, and personally I think they should add in Fist of Fire/Wind/Earth and make them into weaker versions of the riddles. Like Fist of fire into a 5% damage buff, Wind into an auto attack delay of 30%, and Earth into a single stack version of riddle of earth.

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I don’t think this the right move IMO since the stances were removed for a reason. It would have the same problem as in ShB where the other stances besides fire are obsolete since a damage buff is too good to pass on. Here the wind buff is also virtually a damage buff too. The stances would only work if none of them had a damage buff but had other unique effects instead but I don’t think the team wants to add three extra buttons of on the hotbar. I would like to see ROW reworked into a mechanic you can interact with outside of PB bursts. Maybe you could increase your auto attacks by doing your normal rotation with a new wind guage

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Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

I don’t think this the right move IMO since the stances were removed for a reason. It would have the same problem as in ShB where the other stances besides fire are obsolete since a damage buff is too good to pass on. Here the wind buff is also virtually a damage buff too. The stances would only work if none of them had a damage buff but had other unique effects instead but I don’t think the team wants to add three extra buttons of on the hotbar. I would like to see ROW reworked into a mechanic you can interact with outside of PB bursts. Maybe you could increase your auto attacks by doing your normal rotation with a new wind guage

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You misunderstood what they were suggesting. They were not saying bring back the fists as stances, just bring them back as weaker versions of the riddles, then, at the appropriate level, upgrade the fist to the riddle.

As an example, learn Fists of Fire at level 58, giving a 5% damage buff for 20 seconds, then at level 68, get a trait 'Fire mastery' which upgrades Fists of Fire to Riddle of Fire, which will have its current effect. Apply similar rules for the other fists/riddles.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

You misunderstood what they were suggesting. They were not saying bring back the fists as stances, just bring them back as weaker versions of the riddles, then, at the appropriate level, upgrade the fist to the riddle.

As an example, learn Fists of Fire at level 58, giving a 5% damage buff for 20 seconds, then at level 68, get a trait 'Fire mastery' which upgrades Fists of Fire to Riddle of Fire, which will have its current effect. Apply similar rules for the other fists/riddles.

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Yeah I totally misread that my b. I saw the word “fists” and was too hasty. That’s actually a good idea imo but I still want a new ROW

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Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

As far as I know the twin snakes timer is virtually the same as in ShB, where if you alternating between it and true strike you will have plenty of leeway to keep the buff up. Same with demo. Where I’m guessing you might be having difficulties in keeping them
up is different PB Windows, especially if you do two in a row. I would check out the wesk alber guide since you are leveling and he will show you how the opener evolves as you level. (https://youtu.be/TTJQQRlcBXg) This will give you an idea of how to do PB windows without dropping your buffs. Also check out the balance discord, which you probably already know about. There is some awkwardness at the end of your burst where disciplined fist runs out after your last free opo GCD but that was a problem with SHB PB windows as well, worse actually.

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Looking back, I think I was having that issue before watching this guide, where the idea of using Twin snakes after MB failed to cross my mind. But it's been a few months since i've last used Monk so I could just be remembering the times where it did fall of instead of keeping it going fine.

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Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

I don’t think this the right move IMO since the stances were removed for a reason. It would have the same problem as in ShB where the other stances besides fire are obsolete since a damage buff is too good to pass on. Here the wind buff is also virtually a damage buff too. The stances would only work if none of them had a damage buff but had other unique effects instead but I don’t think the team wants to add three extra buttons of on the hotbar. I would like to see ROW reworked into a mechanic you can interact with outside of PB bursts. Maybe you could increase your auto attacks by doing your normal rotation with a new wind gauge

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Oh goodness no, the old fists were extremely superfluous given how only 1 was ever used in any legit content with the other 2 being for solo play/travelling in cities. Making them into a proper buff with a cooldown would be far better and help give players more to do at earlier levels.

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Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

Depending on the status of demolish when you enter your burst phase, perfect balance allows for multiple different burst phases. Mainly the three main types of 2 mins burst phases with minor differences from there (the odd window also has variations). This is great skill expression in my opinion and sets the job part in a good way since not a lot of jobs have this many variations in the rotation.

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Let me be clear that I see this as a completely legitimate perspective and, in fact, I was expecting to be disagreed with here by a lot of players still playing Monk, since that type of gameplay probably appeals to them. (hopefully that made sense)

I think that the "Optimal Drift" concept is seen as far more convoluted than it actually is due to being presented in very confusing ways in various Monk resources, and also that those resources put too much emphasis on executing a 'perfect' Optimal Drift and not enough time on explaining 'why' you're doing each branch, how much damage difference it actually makes if errors occur, and ways to 'deal with it' and recover if something goes wrong.

In other words, I don't think Monk is actually that convoluted right now, it just seems that way when people make confusing flowcharts and such to try to explain something that's just hard to internalize without actually doing it.

So in this case, I'm not trying to say "Monk is broken" or anything like that. It's more, "I understand the concept of how the different potential burst windows flow, but I personally find it an annoying chore, and I'd rather have a comfortably-consistent big punch phase without the sometimes-awkward jank points".

If you disagree I understand, and in fact, if you're a dedicated main Monk, I think that SE should objectively weigh your feedback more heavily. I'm trying to provide honest feedback myself, but at the same time, I'm not trying to get anyone's favorite Job "Kaiten'd".

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

INCREASING CHAKRA CAP

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I understand what you're saying, and it's why I categorize this as "QOL" more than anything.

I find it annoying to have 4/5 Chakra pips sitting there taunting me while I try to decide whether to gamble on activating a supportive OGCD like Riddle of Earth. And it seems like the need for 'Chakra reactivity' is keeping Monk's OGCD space cleared out developmentally.

Overall, I think this one falls into the category of: "Things that are not, objectively, numerically, necessary, but would just feel more fun/comfortable".

...But I know that sort of justification has been a road to hell in many past cases, so I also see the pushback about it as constructive.

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FORMLESS FISTI'd argue, though, that Formless Fist Form Shift (I think you meant) may be button bloat.

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Meditation causing Form Shift makes sense as a consolidation at first glance, but what do you do if you want to Form Shift once you have 5/5 pips? Since that makes Meditation hard-lock into "The Forbidden Chakra".

Or did I misunderstand your idea?

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MAKING PHANTOM RUSH USABLE IN THE OPENER
That sounds like bad gameplay implications for something that'd ultimately just be a tuning change. Hard no on this. The last thing I'd want is to have even less to do in between even minute burst cycles

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Wouldn't it be basically the same rotation, but just rearrange where Blitzes end up?

You'd still do two Blitzes in the opener, you'd just get to see Phantom Rush come out right away, and then you'd have the choice of whether to do either Solar or Lunar at 60s, and then either Lunar or Solar into Phantom Rush at 120s.

Right? Or am I overlooking something?

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Meditation causing Form Shift makes sense as a consolidation at first glance, but what do you do if you want to Form Shift once you have 5/5 pips? Since that makes Meditation hard-lock into "The Forbidden Chakra".

Or did I misunderstand your idea?

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Allowing TFC to be used at under the maximum number of pips would already require you to use a separate button for Meditation.

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Wouldn't it be basically the same rotation, but just rearrange where Blitzes end up?

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It would be the same in the sense that MCH's rotation is "the same" with or without Barrel Stabilizer, despite it, in effect, forcing ~58 second burst cycles onto MCH, removing the whole point of its gauge as a banking tool.

If you had a tool available every 1 minutes with the sole purpose of doing a quick Celestial Rotation (filling your empty Nadi), you then end up with an AB-CB rotation in place of the ABC or BAC rotation. Phantom Rush, then, no longer feels like a capstone; it's just your odd Nadi. And if you make it every 2 minutes, you end up very rarely actually weaving in Solar because its ppgcd is so much lower than Lunar's DK-LF spam.

At the end of the day, it's not a problem so long as the less intuitive behavior isn't always the more optimal and one's throughput is fine in either case. Both are presently true.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

At the end of the day, it's not a problem so long as the less intuitive behavior isn't always the more optimal and one's throughput is fine in either case. Both are presently true.

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Yeah, but I like capping off openers with the biggest best move. It's not numeric or objective, it's just fun.

But yeah, I actually don't really want a clockwork "Nadi-on-demand" CD, since in my opinion, gameplay like Ikishoten is actually more of a bland chore than anything.

What if you didn't make it a Barrel Stabilizer-type action, but instead just allowed Monk to generate a Nadi outside combat, and only outside combat?