Defilberating the Dead Horse

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

The problem is the weekly cap on mats/scrips that have shared useage between battle classes, crafters and gatherers.

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This is what I want to focus on because this was actually a very subtle point. It wasn't the gist of what I was seeing in the doomsday threads.

I don't see this as a problem. It's different, sure, but really, not seeing an issue. Inter dependency / demand is not a bad thing. I can understand why it's frustrating as it's a complete paradigm shift from before where everyone was effectively self sufficient, but creating a demand for something limited means no matter what, you got something of value. How is that a problem? It's a perfect economic move for this style of MMO. Warcraft did the same. (And yes; This game is Final Fantasy Warcraft.) It provides everyone with a leg into the market on something that's value is artificially inflated simply because the game states you can't have more.

This is a casual friendly thing.

Back on the previous points
210 is still alexander savage. 200 may be upgraded, but it's still alexander savage loot. A large amount of the player base will not be running around in full 210 anytime soon.
Later accessory additions means hey, crafting will be even more relevant. +points
I said you can be an omnicrafter. Whether that remains true for 3 stars (Which most of the doomsday threads were pointing towards) remains to be seen.
Choosing between mats and gear is a matter of power vs cost* efficiency. You want the best? Pay up. You want something to get by cheap? Save up. It's the option between 'BiS' and 'Good enough'. (Again, casual friendly thing)

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Yeah I dont know about you, but personally im getting real tired seeing these kinds of posts pop up.

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And some of us are getting tired of seeing the extremely melodramatic and hyperbolic threads by others like your friend AnimaS who has been spamming hate threads across these forums on the subject. At least threads like this are more constructive and rational, we need more like this one and less like your friends popping up. Ones like this which actually debate the topic not solely rely on melodramatic propaganda.

The real reason in my opinion you hate threads like this is because it deflates your attempts at over-dramatization of the issues, a tactic used to try and make SE drastically alter the new systems when in reality SE are smart enough to not over-react like your friend AnimaS or others like yourself who are trying to his promote his actions. SE will make minor adjustments and slight balancing alterations until they are happy with the outcome like they always have done in the past and they will take their time to evaluate the situation instead of making knee jerk reactions to the hyperbole being spread around these forums by some.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

The best analogy would be that this is the crafter equivalent of Alex Savage, but with more grinding.

As someone else has already put it, the Red Scrip Crafting System, if converted to an Combat Equivalent, would be that you had to grind out some specific dungeon 20 times to have the privilege of stepping into Alex Savage.
However there is a small caveat, your Alex Savage Entry Privilege is only good for 1 wipe... One. You can stay in the zone as long as you want, no 90 minute timer, but if everyone in the party dies, you are booted out of the zone.
Oh yeah, and you are only allowed 1.5 Alex Savage Entry Privileges per week.

Do you see how this can seem un-fun?

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Does Reclaim not work on the new crafts? That'd certainly be an ass move.

The "its x lvl behind" doesnt count.

Crafts have always been at the same level as the uncapped tomestones - nothing new there

difference: No daily cap and tremendous efforts to get materials needed to make it. You could use excess tomes to get the materials. ALWAYS and due to that the supply was high and the prices moderate

Now? Sorry if i dont break out in a crazy laughter here. You need 6(!) red crafter scrip items for a body, thats 300 scrip or items worth 2-4m if you'd sold them instead of traded them in. Then add the 120(!) favor items you need - 60 miner 60 botanist - to get those items. With an average of 4.5 per favor youll end up running around 6-7 hours getting those. So far not a single one of those has sold on the MB b/c they are all 500k+ - even tho thats too high around 100k should be reasonable. Still this puts you at 12million worth of favor items.

To sum it up:


300 Red crafter Scrips
270 Red gathering Scrips
around 12 hours playtime crafting items for scrip and gathering items for scrip.
Items worth 2-4 Million traded in for scrip - items reasonable worth 12 million for a total of 14-16m

and hey, thats ONE body piece.

And NO - not a single piece of equipment is on the MB on a quite populated server yet. Compared to 2.x where you had plenty sold in the first 2-4 days this just shows how much this new system sucks.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Does Reclaim not work on the new crafts? That'd certainly be an ass move.

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From what I have read reclaim does work on them though it is debatable whether worth using since the skill itself is used to compensate for bad luck and mistakes in your rotations so is very situational.

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Originally Posted by Magistrella

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Literally nothing here flows together.

Uncapped tomes vs crafting gear, crafting gear wins hands down. This was never a question. It's comparable to i200. i210 90% of the playerbase will not be fully slotted in anytime soon, so as far as the foreseeable future, it's mostly a moot point.

Prices were moderate? Not at the start. You're kidding yourself if you thought prices were 'reasonable' within the first week of a new iLevel patch.

You have 7 days (5 this week) to get a good craft for redscrips as a crafter. I hammered mine out in an hour.
You have 7 days (5 this week) to, at 16 scrips per attempt, make 28-29 5 minute collectible trips. For a single gatherer profession. Assuming you play 2 hours a day, you should get 3-4 gathers per day, between which you can use Favors (15 minutes is about 6 game hours) to gather if you so choose. This leaves you with 2 spare tokens you can use however you wish, or 9 if you choose to use none at all.

It's -your- prerogative to buy or sell a 15million chest piece, just as it's -mine- to buy the far more cost efficient one from scrips and use my gatherer tokens to sell for gil.

Your last statement? Subjective drivel. i70 wasn't flying off the shelves when literally -everyone- was charging more gil than the game gave you up to level 50 for them, and by the other tiers, there were enough alternatives that crafted gear was seen as it was; A luxury for those who care about server/world first, and glamours for the rest of us.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

This is what I want to focus on because this was actually a very subtle point. It wasn't the gist of what I was seeing in the doomsday threads.

I don't see this as a problem. It's different, sure, but really, not seeing an issue. Inter dependency / demand is not a bad thing. I can understand why it's frustrating as it's a complete paradigm shift from before where everyone was effectively self sufficient, but creating a demand for something limited means no matter what, you got something of value. How is that a problem? It's a perfect economic move for this style of MMO. Warcraft did the same. (And yes; This game is Final Fantasy Warcraft.) It provides everyone with a leg into the market on something that's value is artificially inflated simply because the game states you can't have more.

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Crafters need the gatherers red scrips mats, but they need them at a somewhat "sensible" price, else the crafts are just not worth it.

These mats are too hard to get for gatherers to want to sell at that, when they could just save their red scrips and eventually months later gear out their gatherer just using the red scrips (less effort).

Without the gatherer red scrip mats, crafters red scrips are totally useless.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

This is a casual friendly thing.

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Mats that require a well geared gatherer and crafter to get and many many hours per week on the gathering side, is not a casual friendly thing.

How many casuals have a 3.0 top geared crafter/gatherer, lvl 58 battle class and enough time to farm all the Favour mats, crafter hand in mats, gatherer red scripts items?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Back on the previous points
210 is still alexander savage. 200 may be upgraded, but it's still alexander savage loot. A large amount of the player base will not be running around in full 210 anytime soon.
Later accessory additions means hey, crafting will be even more relevant. +points
I said you can be an omnicrafter. Whether that remains true for 3 stars (Which most of the doomsday threads were pointing towards) remains to be seen.
Choosing between mats and gear is a matter of power vs cost* efficiency. You want the best? Pay up. You want something to get by cheap? Save up. It's the option between 'BiS' and 'Good enough'. (Again, casual friendly thing)

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Your previous point are still wrong, the fact you can't admit this when clearly shows tells us a lot...

The previous tome gear was also upgraded from coil drops (i.e. Alex savage is the new coil), so it's still a 30ilvl difference vs 20ilvl difference from before, suspect the tome upgrade items will soon be added to hunt seals like before too. The difference between raid drops and crafted is also 30ilvl now and 20ilvl previously.

Later accessories will also be moot if they are cost prohibitive to make, as looks like people will need all their scrips for craft/gathing gears for a long time to come.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Choosing between mats and gear is a matter of power vs cost* efficiency. You want the best? Pay up. You want something to get by cheap? Save up. It's the option between 'BiS' and 'Good enough'. (Again, casual friendly thing)

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The problem is it's not worth it as the prices items would need to be, I don't mind paying a lot of something, but it has to be somewhat *Worth* it. The i180 battle gear is a slight temporary upgrade and each part is going to be 10's of millions per part.

Even rich players are not that stupid, but who knows maybe RMT players are...

Nobody is going to be selling a HQ i180 chest for 15mil anytime soon, that would be very very cheap for the scrips/mats/risk/cost/time involved.

I suspect you'll be looking at atleast 30mil and maybe closer to 50mil. If anyone makes one anytime soon, as it's also a risk making it, as I cant see many/any being daft enough to buy it at that.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Your last statement? Subjective drivel. i70 wasn't flying off the shelves when literally -everyone- was charging more gil than the game gave you up to level 50 for them, and by the other tiers, there were enough alternatives that crafted gear was seen as it was; A luxury for those who care about server/world first, and glamours for the rest of us.

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I sold a lot of i70, i90 and i110 gear very soon after they were possible to craft.

They sold well.

The mats and items were expencive back then, but they were somewhat affordable to the richer players.

The current mats/items are not.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

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Fair enough; I was wrong about accessories.

You're literally nitpicking a technicality on the others.

It's casual because you have -7 days a week- to do this. The gathering sucks, sure, but it only takes a few minutes to turn to your gatherer, save up the GP, fly to the node, get your collectibles. It, collectively, takes 1-2 hours out of whatever playtime you have for the week, spread out over 7 days and in between your other activities.

Crafting, if you're at least patrician geared eco-melded (not penta melded), and you already have your materials and have a suitable craft, takes an hour. Literally an hour. I did it, and I 'don't know what I'm talking about', so clearly other people should be able to do it -faster-.

Both sets of gear, also, is much cheaper if you work a deal with a crafter to supply mats instead of buying it outright.

You don't need red scrip gear to gather anything right now. Unless they literally add 2star gathering next week (or within the next 5, I suppose), you're safe to put aside red scrips to gather and some to buy gear when you want. It's not one or the other.

And the item is worth what people will pay for it. Which means the materials that make it will need to conform to that to make the craft profitable. This occurs over time. Not in a day.

Just shows how you dont do your research...

scrips reset thursdays so its 7 per day.

Im not arguing the fact that it was cheap to get stuff the first day but it was cheap to get them the first weeks with prices dropping to 1/3 once people found new means to make easy money. And even as a casual crafter you easily could make enough money to get stuff when you wanted to - now? Nope. Omnicrafting was easily done with a few hours

Dont compare i70 with anything after 2.1+, it was release and way more time was needed until enough people leveld their crafts to be able to craft one star besides the 1% that was racing to get there.

And i just have to quote the guy that posted way earlier:

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Mats that require a well geared gatherer and crafter to get and many many hours per week on the gathering side, is not a casual friendly thing.

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Oh and, 15 minutes are exactly 5 ingame hours