2.1 Steel Cyclone, Not Enough

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Originally Posted by Phreak

The problem I see with it never becoming better but only matching IBs DR is from a pure tanking perspective do I really want to blow 5 wrath for a little extra damage and DR? or do I want a self heal (which im bound to get full use out of AoE tanking) and the exact same DR?

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On this note, I figure even at a 10% DR, when you add in enmity modifiers and AoE + Damage + Extended time (8-10 seconds instead of 6) it is more then enough reason to use SC for pickup. I do understand what you are saying however. There is definitely a couple of different directions they could go with. Maybe keeping it per mob hit and up to 20% for the same 6 second (possibly 8 since wrath build as discussed) might be a way of doing it. Again I'd like to see the numbers, I image they'd be close so I'm not exactly disagreeing, just treading with caution.

I certainly wish they'd add viable wrath building for AoE scenarios. Each overpower adding a wrath stack seems too strong. Perhaps a chance % for it might work out better.

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Originally Posted by Traek

On this note, I figure even at a 10% DR, when you add in enmity modifiers and AoE + Damage + Extended time (8-10 seconds instead of 6) it is more then enough reason to use SC for pickup...I certainly wish they'd add viable wrath building for AoE scenarios. Each overpower adding a wrath stack seems too strong. Perhaps a chance % for it might work out better.

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I personally would like to see SC become a staple Wrath dump for AoE situations rather than just a pickup tool.

In regards to a % chance for wrath generation rather than guarnteed I can agree.

Normal wrath generate = ~8 GCDs or 20 seconds
Original Over Power idea = 5 GCDs or 12.5 seconds

12.5 seconds is 62.5% of 20 so maybe give it a 60-70% chance @ 3+ mobs, or to mirror the proposed SC chance baseline 50% with an increase per mob (up to 70%).

I would really like to see a shift in ability usage once we encounter multiple enemies making Over Power + SC our go to kit with maybe keeping maim up as a personal option, leave Flash/SoC spam and tabbing to the PLDs.

Bring back the heal on critical and the stun. The only thing broken about 1.0 cyclone was the damage.

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Originally Posted by Naelle

Bring back the heal on critical and the stun. The only thing broken about 1.0 cyclone was the damage.

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I'd rather not it be a flip of the coin as to whether or not it was a good idea to use SC or IB in an AoE situation. Also the Heal on critical wasn't specifically tied to SC it was Rampage.

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Originally Posted by Phreak

EDIT:
reduce damage taken by an additional 5% and increase duration by 2 seconds for each additional enemy hit.

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While it may not be breaking for endgame raids, your proposed additonal 5% defense and 2 second length per mob would be almost too powerful for 4 man content. As an expample warrior in WP could pull to the first bug "ambush", hit SC and approach a 100% damage reduction for nearly 30 seconds (sorry can't remember exactly how many bugs spawn there). The effect would still be going as the next next two groups could be easily pulled within that time frame. I'm not saying your idea is bad, but the added conditional would be too good for the small man stuff.

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Originally Posted by Phreak

That's why in later posted we added in a cap to it's benefit, ill edit my first post.

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I must've missed that post. Found it. Definately would need to cap it, though.

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Originally Posted by Naelle

Bring back the heal on critical and the stun. The only thing broken about 1.0 cyclone was the damage.

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I would like that, too.

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

While it may not be breaking for endgame raids, your proposed additonal 5% defense and 2 second length per mob would be almost too powerful for 4 man content. As an expample warrior in WP could pull to the first bug "ambush", hit SC and approach a 100% damage reduction for nearly 30 seconds (sorry can't remember exactly how many bugs spawn there). The effect would still be going as the next next two groups could be easily pulled within that time frame. I'm not saying your idea is bad, but the added conditional would be too good for the small man stuff.

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That's why in later posts we added in a cap to it's benefit, ill edit my first post.

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Originally Posted by Phreak

I personally would like to see SC become a staple Wrath dump for AoE situations rather than just a pickup tool.

In regards to a % chance for wrath generation rather than guarnteed I can agree.

Normal wrath generate = ~8 GCDs or 20 seconds
Original Over Power idea = 5 GCDs or 12.5 seconds

12.5 seconds is 62.5% of 20 so maybe give it a 60-70% chance @ 3+ mobs, or to mirror the proposed SC chance baseline 50% with an increase per mob (up to 70%).

I would really like to see a shift in ability usage once we encounter multiple enemies making Over Power + SC our go to kit with maybe keeping maim up as a personal option, leave Flash/SoC spam and tabbing to the PLDs.

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Err, I realize I said pickup ability, and I don't know why, because I don't want that at all either. So consider that part retracted lol. I really want it to be a staple move like you are getting at, and that was the point of this threads creation. My only wish is to keep the playing field even between PLD and WAR in proposing/implementing these changes.

I believe we are thinking the same thing along the lines of Overpower Wrath gen. Seems more then reasonable, and its definitely essential to keep SC as a staple of our Warrior abilities.

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Originally Posted by Traek

Err, I realize I said pickup ability, and I don't know why, because I don't want that at all either. So consider that part retracted lol. I really want it to be a staple move like you are getting at, and that was the point of this threads creation. My only wish is to keep the playing field even between PLD and WAR in proposing/implementing these changes.

I believe we are thinking the same thing along the lines of Overpower Wrath gen. Seems more then reasonable, and its definitely essential to keep SC as a staple of our Warrior abilities.

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After more thought I do agree that SC's DR shouldn't exceed 20% due to a single scenario.

If they ever design a boss were there are either frequent adds of 3+ or long term adds of 3+ that can be tanked by an OT relatively close to the WAR MT allowing them to net a 30% DR every 15 seconds or so would be quite powerful.

So by keeping it at 20% and allowing Over Power to generate some wrath I can see this being a worth while consideration in regards to AoE situations.

Seems like version mentioned by Yoshi will be good/OK for:
Area damage -- either better than overpower or used when TP runs low.
Snap agro -- don't have to target or line up for a cone. Hopefully more agro than Flash. Or if you're out of mana.

Not every ability has to be the best ability ever. As long as it has some reasonable use sometime, that's all I would ask for.

As for giving up the damage reduction from Inner Beast, there may be times when you'd choose Inner Beast instead. There may also be times when you know your teammates are going hard on area damage and you can't afford to spend the time doing something that doesn't build area threat. In that sort of case you would have a 3rd option beyond just Overpower and Flash.

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Originally Posted by Phreak

If they ever design a boss were there are either frequent adds of 3+ or long term adds of 3+ that can be tanked by an OT relatively close to the WAR MT allowing them to net a 30% DR every 15 seconds or so would be quite powerful.

So by keeping it at 20% and allowing Over Power to generate some wrath I can see this being a worth while consideration in regards to AoE situations.

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Right. I was trying to think of a good scenario but there isn't a lot to go off of. T4 this might be doable as OT is kiting to swing them close enough to MT for side step and SC for the added DR. Either way 20% isn't OP (IB already accomplishes this) and with wrath gen and Overpower with the short up time, I think it'd be a win overall for Warrior as a class.

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Originally Posted by RhazeCain

Seems like version mentioned by Yoshi will be good/OK for:
Area damage -- either better than overpower or used when TP runs low.
Snap agro -- don't have to target or line up for a cone. Hopefully more agro than Flash. Or if you're out of mana.

Not every ability has to be the best ability ever. As long as it has some reasonable use sometime, that's all I would ask for.

As for giving up the damage reduction from Inner Beast, there may be times when you'd choose Inner Beast instead. There may also be times when you know your teammates are going hard on area damage and you can't afford to spend the time doing something that doesn't build area threat. In that sort of case you would have a 3rd option beyond just Overpower and Flash.

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Not every ability has to be the best ever, but I did explain earlier in the thread how SC will still be borderline unused (or should be) if its just an enmity adjustment. Unless your relic +1s are going crazy and you have low resources, that would be the only scenario you'd "need" this ability. Which if you are facerolling properly, shouldn't be an issue. In every scenario you can manage threat (which should be all, given we can now) IB will be the clear choice over SC unless changes are made. Heck I'd even take an extra GCD of unmitigated damage if it meant the aggroe necessary for 6 extra seconds of 20% DR (Flash > Overpower > Overpower > IB > Infuriate > Overpower > Overpower > IB). This will help your raid, and healers far more in the long run.