Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

Blue Mage provides the most fun healing experience
lol

Damn, I listened to the clip and what a response... He essentially said if you want the content to be engaging, you must play ultimate. I really don't know what to say. Perhaps I'm being hyperbolic but this seems like some terrible class design.

This has been a take.jpg

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

A big fat 0 percentile on AST on one of my runs still had me pressing that 1 key 99 times.

Compelling gameplay right there

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Similarly—recently an AST friend of mine asked if they had any issue with their gameplay because they just got kicked out of P1S PF without anything being said. I told them I’m going to find if they have any logged run (yes, they do).

It’s the same, big fat 0 percentile AST. Yet amazingly Fall Malefix is still their most pressed buttons; at 69.4%.

This will never cease to baffle me. Not even low end gameplay makes people press more healing buttons.

A lot of healer mains like how the healers are currently and while I don't like it either I doubt yoship is ever gonna stop cattering to those.

I find it kind of silly that people would even take healing parses that seriously when there's so little optimization involved past "don't hardcast heals" for non-AST healers that losing even a couple casts over the course of a fight is going to drop your percentile much more then on any other job.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

A lot of healer mains like how the healers are currently and while I don't like it either I doubt yoship is ever gonna stop cattering to those.

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They're not healers though. They're players that don't like playing support but were lured in with the promise of "all you have to do is press a button every 30 sec and do mechanics and you'll get EX and Savage clears and people will think you're helping".

Healers were ripped away from the healer mains. Like many things in this game that were ripped away from the veterans who loved them and handed over to the people who disliked them to bolster participation. Many (not all) "healer mains" now are just leech mains.

It's most insulting when they post their rants about "dps healers not healing" because their co-heal wasn't blindly spamming Medica II when no one was in danger, or "if you want to dps go play dps" to players who are healing more efficiently than them and contributing a lot to killing the boss. That really rubs the salt into the wound when you do everything you can to support your groups and play well and Sir Succor takes a break from licking windows to talk down to you about being useful, then the actual developer of the game pats him on the head and says "that's right Timmy, you tell them!".

Healer should just passively pulse aoe heal and be renamed spectator or cheerleader at this point, throw pretense out the window and just let them tag along for the ride as the developers seem to intend.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

They're not healers though. They're players that don't like playing support but were lured in with the promise of "all you have to do is press a button every 30 sec and do mechanics and you'll get EX and Savage clears and people will think you're helping".

Healers were ripped away from the healer mains. Like many things in this game that were ripped away from the veterans who loved them and handed over to the people who disliked them to bolster participation. Many (not all) "healer mains" now are just leech mains.

It's most insulting when they post their rants about "dps healers not healing" because their co-heal wasn't blindly spamming Medica II when no one was in danger, or "if you want to dps go play dps" to players who are healing more efficiently than them and contributing a lot to killing the boss. That really rubs the salt into the wound when you do everything you can to support your groups and play well and Sir Succor takes a break from licking windows to talk down to you about being useful, then the actual developer of the game pats him on the head and says "that's right Timmy, you tell them!".

Healer should just passively pulse aoe heal and be renamed spectator or cheerleader at this point, throw pretense out the window and just let them tag along for the ride as the developers seem to intend.

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This is how I feel about it too but I feel at this point its kinda beating around a dead horse, maybe im wrong and he'll say something about it next live letter but other old healer mains know better than me he only makes things worse.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

This is how I feel about it too but I feel at this point its kinda beating around a dead horse, maybe im wrong and he'll say something about it next live letter but other old healer mains know better than me he only makes things worse.

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Do you suppose it would be better if Yoshi-P gets replaced at this point? It seems a lot of people in the forum arent too happy with how the game is running from healing to story to overall content releases. People are acting like this game is just bad now

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Do you suppose it would be better if Yoshi-P gets replaced at this point? It seems a lot of people in the forum arent too happy with how the game is running from healing to story to overall content releases. People are acting like this game is just bad now

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Yoship is a grey area for me I'd just like it if he didn't ignore healers but he is not the worst director either, but that's my opinion atleast.

Also I don't think anyone is saying the game is bad? A lot of people say x part of the game sucks or could've been done better but im pretty sure anyone in these forums giving their thoughts even if negative about the game likes the game and wants it to be better. I'll be kinda blunt for a sec tho but the people complaining about story kinda were too overhyped for ew lol.

i still say the reason why most of shb story was well received was cause it had alot more freedom to build and to be on topic i do miss sb healer styles and broken bard.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

Yoship is a grey area for me I'd just like it if he didn't ignore healers but he is not the worst director either, but that's my opinion atleast.

Also I don't think anyone is saying the game is bad? A lot of people say x part of the game sucks or could've been done better but im pretty sure anyone in these forums giving their thoughts even if negative about the game likes the game and wants it to be better. I'll be kinda blunt for a sec tho but the people complaining about story kinda were too overhyped for ew lol.

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Im being melodramatic with that statement of course but yeah over the course of me spending time on these forums it just feels like in general people arent happy with the game, which what prompting me to think maybe we need a new switch of directors if Yoshi-P aint cutting it no more.

i think the reason for the reason for how they been changeing things over the years is was from how gordias savage was(look up those days) while alot of the hardcore players liked it that killed the game for alot of the midcore people so im guessing alot of the stuff was over doing it to prevent a 2nd gordias drama.

Healers adjust.

/s

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Originally Posted by Poporito_Popoto

Healers adjust.

/s

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When larry said healers adjust I wasn't ready for this :c

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Im being melodramatic with that statement of course but yeah over the course of me spending time on these forums it just feels like in general people arent happy with the game, which what prompting me to think maybe we need a new switch of directors if Yoshi-P aint cutting it no more.

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On the one hand, yes, some new leadership might be needed. On the other hand, I fear the changes that might be forced onto someone with less corporate influence than Yoshi-P.

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Originally Posted by Irenia

On the one hand, yes, some new leadership might be needed. On the other hand, I fear the changes that might be forced onto someone with less corporate influence than Yoshi-P.

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Clearly the attitude given here is that anyone would be better than current Yoshi-P or heck even current Ishikawa. Nothing is working for you guys.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Im being melodramatic with that statement of course but yeah over the course of me spending time on these forums it just feels like in general people arent happy with the game, which what prompting me to think maybe we need a new switch of directors if Yoshi-P aint cutting it no more.

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My suggestion is spend more time in the game than on the forums if you feel this way. What you're hearing here is the hivemind's chorus. Granted, players come to the forums to vent their frustrations, which is all well and good as the game is not and never will be perfect. However, when it congregates into a pitchfork mob that shut out any and all voices trying to reason with them, and a demand for current team members to step down and away from their passion; it becomes something much different than that.

Those team members have contractual obligations, families, and livelihoods that make it difficult to part ways even if this is what one or more of them wanted. The same cannot be said for those who are unsatisfied to the point the game in no longer enjoyable. They can simply unsub. Otherwise, all they are doing is supporting a game, system, and dev team they are strictly against, which makes absolutely zero sense.

If you want to formulate your own impression of healing in FFXIV, I would pick one or more of them up, max them out, and take it/them into all kinds of content. A Newgame+ chapter or two, Hall of Novice, Squadrons/Trusts etc. are all viable along with raids. Once you do, you may very well develop the same opinion on healing as what rings in your ears. But at least it will be yours.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

My suggestion is spend more time in the game than on the forums if you feel this way. What you're hearing here is the hivemind's chorus. Granted, players come to the forums to vent their frustrations, which is all well and good as the game is not and never will be perfect. However, when it congregates into a pitchfork mob that shut out any and all voices trying to reason with them, and a demand for current team members to step down and away from their passion; it becomes something much different than that.

Those team members have contractual obligations, families, and livelihoods that make it difficult to part ways even if this is what one or more of them wanted. The same cannot be said for those who are unsatisfied to the point the game in no longer enjoyable. They can simply unsub. Otherwise, all they are doing is supporting a game, system, and dev team they are strictly against, which makes absolutely zero sense.

If you want to formulate your own impression of healing in FFXIV, I would pick one or more of them up, max them out, and take it/them into all kinds of content. A Newgame+ chapter or two, Hall of Novice, Squadrons/Trusts etc. are all viable along with raids. Once you do, you may very well develop the same opinion on healing as what rings in your ears. But at least it will be yours.

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Yeah Ive already have experience and play as healer (mostly white mage) from time to time. Thing is, I'm fine with how healing works, maybe its because I play on controller? so button presses feel a lot more better even if its mashing that one button for dps time? But I do understand that its odd...that healers dont get an extension to their dps skills even at higher levels and you get more healer abilities (which I get it, the role is called HEALER) and not enough support party wide buffing to weave in during their healer downtime.

I would certainly like to see many of them get a rework (although Astro is currently fine in my book. That class already has enough buttons)

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Astro is currently fine in my book. That class already has enough buttons

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Astro, the same class that had its lore retconned and outright disrespected through the reworks. The one who had its class quests ruined and characters botched due to altered and removed dialouge? The class that has abilities that outright contradict its own lore in the form of current cards and Neutral Sect? That astro is currently fine? Forget how many buttons it has, look at how much the class has been disrespected and dumbed down over the past few years. All the while the dev team never fix stuff like DRK's Living Dead because of "Job Identity" while they take a big fat shit all over Astrologian's job identity.

I would definitely not call Astro "fine". Functioning, yes, fine? Hell no.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Yeah Ive already have experience and play as healer (mostly white mage) from time to time. Thing is, I'm fine with how healing works, maybe its because I play on controller? so button presses feel a lot more better even if its mashing that one button for dps time? But I do understand that its odd...that healers dont get an extension to their dps skills even at higher levels and you get more healer abilities (which I get it, the role is called HEALER) and not enough support party wide buffing to weave in during their healer downtime.

I would certainly like to see many of them get a rework (although Astro is currently fine in my book. That class already has enough buttons)

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I don't see why:

1- your choice of input interface would reflect on how engaging the job is, which is what most of this post has been discussing. Whether i click my skills, use a controller, or keybind them- I'm going to choose the same skills
2- Astro being fine is highly debatable- in my opinion quantity does NOT necessarily = quality , there are skills in AST that can eliminated and skills for AST that could potentially be improved. AST should be busy, but those skills should pay off, there isn't always consensus that (for example) astrodyne or minor arcana really do.
3- finally, just because the role is called healer doesn't mean that we cannot, do not want to, or should not do other things. The role is called TANK but have you ever looked at how much healing can been done by them?

sigh I should've known to NOT say Astro is fine.

Alright fine all healer classes are terrible then. Im sorry.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

sigh I should've known to NOT say Astro is fine.

Alright fine all healer classes are terrible then. Im sorry.

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you being sarcastic but the thing is that every piece of lore, aspects that defined those iconic jobs or even gaining/fixing spells and abilities, has been buchered/removed/got ignored or got a worse band-aid for identical bug then for a different job in a different role and those facts are backed up by each of their actions and changes they made over the years.

the facts are there, the healer role has been neglected by the dev team.

it will only get worse the more its being ignored and yoshi p statement about "if you dont have fun go do ultimates" is basically him saying "let them eat cake" and while also laughing afterwards, it making him appear so detached and even uncaring that its no surprise people started saying he need to be replaced.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

you being sarcastic but the thing is that every piece of lore, aspects that defined those iconic jobs or even gaining/fixing spells and abilities, has been buchered/removed/got ignored or got a worse band-aid for identical bug then for a different job in a different role and those facts are backed up by each of their actions and changes they made over the years.

the facts are there, the healer role has been neglected by the dev team.

it will only get worse the more its being ignored and yoshi p statement about "if you dont have fun go do ultimates" is basically him saying "let them eat cake" and while also laughing afterwards, it making him appear so detached and even uncaring that its no surprise people started saying he need to be replaced.

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Im sure a good portion of this community (and the casual MMO community in general ) will be constantly debating and at each other's throats whether Yoshi-P is unfit to further lead the game and that he should be fired.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Im sure a good portion of this community (and the casual MMO community in general ) will be constantly debating and at each other's throats whether Yoshi-P is unfit to further lead the game and that he should be fired.

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it will probably be debated for other reasons as well such as glamour/lore stuff or perhaps his treatment to other communities but no matter how u look at it, the current situation in the healer community for this talk is basically the results of his own actions in the live letter and yoshi-p/ the dev team for not only altering the question asked but also giving such a dismissive and disrespecting answer to the healer question.
basically yoshi-p and the dev started this kind of talk in the forum due to those actions.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

sigh I should've known to NOT say Astro is fine.

Alright fine all healer classes are terrible then. Im sorry.

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Astro was fine in stormblood then they made it braindead

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Originally Posted by Gemina

My suggestion is spend more time in the game than on the forums if you feel this way. What you're hearing here is the hivemind's chorus. Granted, players come to the forums to vent their frustrations, which is all well and good as the game is not and never will be perfect. However, when it congregates into a pitchfork mob that shut out any and all voices trying to reason with them, and a demand for current team members to step down and away from their passion; it becomes something much different than that.

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Then there's the opposite end of the spectrum. The white knights who will defend every single action taken and that the dev team can do no wrong. They've been in this thread and countless others. That hivemind exists as well.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Those team members have contractual obligations, families, and livelihoods that make it difficult to part ways even if this is what one or more of them wanted. The same cannot be said for those who are unsatisfied to the point the game in no longer enjoyable. They can simply unsub. Otherwise, all they are doing is supporting a game, system, and dev team they are strictly against, which makes absolutely zero sense.

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You realize you can enjoy a product overall but not certain aspects of it though right? Echo chambers exist because no one is willing to speak up and say something is wrong. Criticism is important because people who criticize care. If they didn't, they'd just leave.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Do you suppose it would be better if Yoshi-P gets replaced at this point? It seems a lot of people in the forum arent too happy with how the game is running from healing to story to overall content releases. People are acting like this game is just bad now

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It's less he needs to be replaced and more than he needs to actually experience the game from a healer perspective. The last time he tried to explain his actions regarding healers (WHM's did the healing and SCH's just did damage), he was 100% flat out incorrect in his reasoning and proven wrong with data. That line sounded like it would come from someone with very little healer experience and was just repeating what he was told by someone else.

He never acknowledged his mistake, and I think that is one of the issues. They think they're infallible when it comes to certain aspects of the game design when it has been proven time and time again they simply aren't.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

it will probably be debated for other reasons as well such as glamour/lore stuff or perhaps his treatment to other communities but no matter how u look at it, the current situation in the healer community for this talk is basically the results of his own actions in the live letter and yoshi-p/ the dev team for not only altering the question asked but also giving such a dismissive and disrespecting answer to the healer question.
basically yoshi-p and the dev started this kind of talk in the forum due to those actions.

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I don't think Atelier is being genuine and its filling this thread with a bit of nonsense so I say let it go... If im wrong feel free to correct me.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

I don't think Atelier is being genuine and its filling this thread with a bit of nonsense so I say let it go... If im wrong feel free to correct me.

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To be honest I kinda am? Its mostly me just trying to figure out what makes you people click because it feels its beyond more than just "healer bad"

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

To be honest I kinda am? Its mostly me just trying to figure out what makes you people click because it feels its beyond more than just "healer bad"

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then i will ask u this, your playing dark knight right?
why do you play drk?, you can play dps instead.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

then i will ask u this, your playing dark knight right?
why do you play drk?, you can play dps instead.

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I play Dark Knight because I sometimes like the general play and feel of their abilities? Im not some hardcore "gotta go with the current best" in an MMO. This isnt a competition. I want my personal preferences dictate my fun in this game and so far this game does a good job doing that. This is the same reason why personally I feel fine with current healing BUT PLEASE FOR THE LOVE GOD PAY ATTENTION TO ME SAYING THIS....I acknowledge that it can be better.

I also dont stick to just one class, especially on Savage Raiding. I always go in with the class thats my highest gear level and the one Im most comfortable at to deal damage while paying close attention to fights.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Im sure a good portion of this community (and the casual MMO community in general ) will be constantly debating and at each other's throats whether Yoshi-P is unfit to further lead the game and that he should be fired.

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Honestly, I don’t really think that Yoshida needs replacing. I don’t think that’s what healers need. What needs to happen is they need to have someone on the development team actually play healers. It has been stated in the past that none of the battle team “mains” the healing role, and I think that this has contributed just as much as listening to non-healer mains to how we went from “healers” to “gimped damage dealers”.

The development team doesn’t play the healers, so they can’t get any sort of insight on to the how or why healer mains are so unhappy with the state of the role right now. They give us more and more healing tools that are complete overkill in 99% of content, while also making healing requirements less and less in all types of content and streamlining our DPS abilities until all healers are 1 DoT, 1 nuke—a design that only really works if a job has a secondary mechanic. AST is really the only healer that can have the 1 DoT, 1 nuke design since it has the cards to deal with; but the cards are a huge spot of contention within the community. Particularly between any healer that has played AST since it released in Heavensward and those who didn’t touch the job until ShB, or even EW.

AST as a job has suffered from balance problem after balance problem: from the old Sect system where one Sect was always inherently better than the other, no questions asked; to either being a job borderline unplayable to being a job that was extremely overpowered. Even next to the healer it directly competes with (WHM), AST has always ended up completely dominating at some point in an expansion. The closest AST and WHM ever were, in my opinion, was in Stormblood—but AST was still the better choice at an optimization level. There could be some argument for ShB, but AST had a particularly rough beginning in ShB before rising from its grave. As it stands now, however, there is no competition between AST and WHM.

Currently, AST is in a bad spot in terms of gameplay. The lore of the card system (and even the original time mage-y aspects) is completely gone. The card system could be boiled down to just Balance, and the other five could be removed. The Seals exist to keep each card relevant. And now Astrodyne exists to keep the Seals relevant—and is a terrible addition to an already divisive system. The buff itself is negligible enough that, at an optimized level, you don’t even try to for a 3-seal Astrodyne and instead consider the ability to be a second form of Lucid Dreaming. Minor Arcana is an underwhelming ability that, while an echo of the original Stormblood system that didn’t really have too many issues, is no longer a system that adds anything to the job. It’s either “Get Lord, be happy” or “Get Lady, be sad”. AST has so much healing—and there’s so little in terms to actually heal in this game—that getting ANOTHER healing option is overkill; and Lord becomes the only thing that matters, because damage is the only thing that matters in this game.

I don’t know if your assessment of AST being fine comes from a standpoint where you aren’t familiar with the deeper issues of the job; or from you not knowing that this job has never been “fine” in terms of balance. I could write out a dissertation about the issues the job has had since its inception, but I’ll just leave it at this Cliff Notes version and climb off of my AST Boomer Soapbox now.


The team also doesn’t seem to listen to the concerns of healer mains over the whining of non-healers that want everything to be disgustingly easy and boring. The Stormblood Lily System is a prime example of how the team completely dismissed all of the initial concerns following the media tour regarding how useless the system was, constantly repeating “Just wait until the expansion drops to try them”, “Just wait until the first adjustment patch”, “Just wait until Savage comes out”, “Wait until we release the new Ultimate mode”. Lilies were a dead system for two years, and it wasn’t even acknowledged until the ShB media tour where they finally became something better. And now? Back to not being so great. But WHM in general is in a terrible state.

Additionally, the EW media tour was extremely disappointing in that none of the career healer mains that make optimization guides and job guides about each healer were invited to provide their feedback on EW changes. I believe it was the ShB media tour (but it could have been the SB one), where the developers did the same thing, and instead asked DPS mains their opinions on the state of the healers and the upcoming changes to the jobs. Which, a DPS main isn’t going to be able to provide the same kind of insight and feedback that a healer main could.


Healer change is possible without replacing Yoshida as a producer/director. But it will require him to not make comments like the one he made about healing and “just do Ultimate”, actually listen to valid feedback provided from people who play healers (and play them extensively, not just casually here and there), and get someone on the development team who is familiar with the role and actually plays it.

Yeah this is what I think we should instead encourage the devs for. Have somebody in the job design department actually main healing to see where most of these complaints are coming from

...which is weird since seriously how would they neglect a part of the main core game like that?

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I play Dark Knight because I sometimes like the general play and feel of their abilities? Im not some hardcore "gotta go with the current best" in an MMO. This isnt a competition. I want my personal preferences dictate my fun in this game and so far this game does a good job doing that. This is the same reason why personally I feel fine with current healing BUT PLEASE FOR THE LOVE GOD PAY ATTENTION TO ME SAYING THIS....I acknowledge that it can be better.

I also dont stick to just one class, especially on Savage Raiding. I always go in with the class thats my highest gear level and the one Im most comfortable at to deal damage while paying close attention to fights.

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notice how that question ticked u there, you love DRK.
you asked what made us tick so i decided to make you feel that way :)

people have other jobs they can play in other roles but its not the role they want to play. they want to have the healer experience meaning they want to heal/support. they also don't stick to one job in particular but its not "their job" per se.
if u want to be a healer(or feel like one) that helps people in a party, the sad reality right now is that the role(not job but role) can be replaced in current content (both casual and higher ones as shown) and simply not needed due to self heals and others able to heal/ress the same as healers(tanks and dps alike).

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

notice how that question ticked u there, you love DRK.
you asked what made us tick so i decided to make you feel that way :)

people have other jobs they can play in other roles but its not the role they want to play. they want to have the healer experience meaning they want to heal/support. they also don't stick to one job in particular but its not "their job" per se.
if u want to be a healer(or feel like one) that helps people in a party, the sad reality right now is that the role(not job but role) can be replaced in current content (both casual and higher ones as shown) and simply not needed to do self heals(tanks and dps alike).

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I would highly disagree on the casual content with no healers. Unless everyone is top notch, have the best use of mitigation, survivability solely depends if everybody picks the right class and everybody is on top coordination. Ive had dungeon wipes due to healers making a mistake and even boss wipes when healer dies but tanks cant keep themselves alive long enough to finish the job.

Im not saying that the contrary ever happens, Ive already had a few experiences were we managed to pull through by the skin of our teeth when a healer perishes. But I dont think nor believe the healing useless has gotten so bad that we just dont need them anymore.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I would highly disagree on the casual content with no healers. Unless everyone is top notch, have the best use of mitigation, survivability solely depends if everybody picks the right class and everybody is on top coordination. Ive had dungeon wipes due to healers making a mistake and even boss wipes when healer dies but tanks cant keep themselves alive long enough to finish the job.

Im not saying that the contrary ever happens, Ive already had a few experiences were we managed to pull through by the skin of our teeth when a healer perishes. But I dont think nor believe the healing useless has gotten so bad that we just dont need them anymore.

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It has gotten that bad, though. Tank healing (with the exception of DRK) is insane. WAR is unkillable with things like Bloodwhetting—WAR in general has always been lauded for its self-healing. It is possible to do dungeons without a healer. Extremes can be done either without a healer or with just a single healer because there’s very little to do in terms of healing. Even Savage can be done with just one healer. The developers force a two-healer composition by forcing mechanics to target healers specifically (P4S fire stacks target healers, to give an example)—but it can be done with just one healer. And has been done. And this doesn’t even require top notch play. I’ve done dungeons with casual, non-raider, not-top notch players before without a healer in there. As a healer in a dungeon, I spend 95% of my time spamming my AOE or single target nuke. The only time I have to actively heal is, quite frankly, if I get a bad tank.

And that last statement echoes something I’ve asked in the past: why is it that the healing role, in order to actually feel engaged or to actually do any significant amounts of healing, has to rely on bad players or bad runs to perform their primary role? I’ll be honest, the reason I’ve been spamming Dun Scaith as a healer recently is because the runs are easy enough to turn into a clown fiesta, and I can FINALLY do something other than spam Dosis until my fingers fall off. But that’s not a reflection of the content requiring me to heal, and more so a reflection of lots of shite hitting lots of fans. And that has been the case with healers for a long time.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I would highly disagree on the casual content with no healers. Unless everyone is top notch, have the best use of mitigation, survivability solely depends if everybody picks the right class and everybody is on top coordination. Ive had dungeon wipes due to healers making a mistake and even boss wipes when healer dies but tanks cant keep themselves alive long enough to finish the job.

Im not saying that the contrary ever happens, Ive already had a few experiences were we managed to pull through by the skin of our teeth when a healer perishes. But I dont think nor believe the healing useless has gotten so bad that we just dont need them anymore.

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im afraid it reached that way, except for drk ,every casual content can be cleared without healers that is how much healing tanks and dps has right now so unless u really hit a party that wont do mechanics, even unexperienced party can clear it without healers after 1 or 2 wipes

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

It has gotten that bad, though. Tank healing (with the exception of DRK) is insane. WAR is unkillable with things like Bloodwhetting—WAR in general has always been lauded for its self-healing. It is possible to do dungeons without a healer. Extremes can be done either without a healer or with just a single healer because there’s very little to do in terms of healing. Even Savage can be done with just one healer. The developers force a two-healer composition by forcing mechanics to target healers specifically (P4S fire stacks target healers, to give an example)—but it can be done with just one healer. And has been done. And this doesn’t even require top notch play. I’ve done dungeons with casual, non-raider, not-top notch players before without a healer in there. As a healer in a dungeon, I spend 95% of my time spamming my AOE or single target nuke. The only time I have to actively heal is, quite frankly, if I get a bad tank.

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Yeah but I'm also playing this game where the contrary also happens, where healers are needed in dungeons. People's skill levels and playing levels are just different and in my experience more times than not, healers are a necessity.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Yeah but I'm also playing this game where the contrary also happens, where healers are needed in dungeons. People's skill levels and playing levels are just different and in my experience more times than not, healers are a necessity.

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Here’s an edit in case you missed it: it addresses this “healers are a necessity” comment in a way—

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

And that last statement echoes something I’ve asked in the past: why is it that the healing role, in order to actually feel engaged or to actually do any significant amounts of healing, has to rely on bad players or bad runs to perform their primary role? I’ll be honest, the reason I’ve been spamming Dun Scaith as a healer recently is because the runs are easy enough to turn into a clown fiesta, and I can FINALLY do something other than spam Dosis until my fingers fall off. But that’s not a reflection of the content requiring me to heal, and more so a reflection of lots of shite hitting lots of fans. And that has been the case with healers for a long time.

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Healers aren’t a necessity anymore. Healers aren’t even healers. We are gimped damage dealers that heal sometimes. Just because you have a run where people cannot perform properly doesn’t make healers a necessity when other roles easily fill their niches: healing, raising, and mitigating.

There used to be dungeons where a healer was needed. There used to be dungeons that were actually hard to heal and forced healers to heal versus just mindlessly spamming their damage spells (OG The Vault is a perfect example of a dungeon that required having a decent healer). But these don’t exist anymore. They have been steadily shadow nerfed by either potency changes or job changes. In Endwalker, there are only a handful of pulls that could actually be considered spicy, and require a healer to pay attention. Most of them though? I’m spamming my AOE nuke. I’m not healing. If I am healing, it’s because I have a very bad tank who doesn’t understand the concept of defensive cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Yeah but I'm also playing this game where the contrary also happens, where healers are needed in dungeons. People's skill levels and playing levels are just different and in my experience more times than not, healers are a necessity.

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the only moment those stuff happen is when u do wall to wall pulls which again not mendatory and clearly dungeons were not design to be that way but still they are being done that way cause its possible and easy to do.
if you do a dungeon the way it was intended and pull 1 group at a time you would even barely need a mitigation skill and just use your self heals, let alone a healer to make sure ur alive.

and as hyo said before you have loads of other jobs able to replace healers, u need a heal another then other then every tank(except DRK) u have rdm/dnc/smn or that same person can heal themselves like melee can with their role actions. you need to raise someone smn/rdm and very very rare cases u need cleansing you have brd. every aspect you need a healer is basically replace or not exist in most contents(cleansing a buff).

but you don't need a special composition to make a run work, u just need to know a fight and after 1 or 2 wipes if happens and you can clear a dungeon/ trial without a healer in a party.

Like seriously, I've experienced wipes in a trial or an alliance when all the healers are down and no rezzes or people who have a rez didnt survive long enough during a fight to get it off. The same with dungeons content. And again I feel stupid for having to repeat myself that I'm not saying that people have ran certain content without a healer and managed to do fine. But what Im seeing there happen is that everyone on that team is on their game, knows how to play their class and is coordinated enough to pull something like that off. Which I dont see it happen that smoothly whenever I play this game as normal everyday player. Sometimes I make a mistake in focusing too much on dps as a healer and I cause a wipe, Sometimes I see tanks not doing their job too well. There's all these different factors that I see that happen daily that I cant consistently rely on what people say here. But I acknowledge that it happens. Just dont acknowledge that this is the case 100% of the time without fail.