As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

I found this little gem in the General Discussion area. Quoting its entirety so as not to remove context:

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Originally Posted by Train88

I got reported because I didn't do damage, as a healer.

I've been healing a9-12 normal regularly and the number one cause of wipes is the other healer does damage and puts all the healer pressure on me.

I do not dps as a healer. It is a choice I make.

Now I was doing a guildhest on an alt because i'm really bored with this game anyway and some dark knight goes and tells me to dps. I took it less than well and I told him off. Then he went off to tell me I was getting reported and proceeded to kill the stupid turtle.

I am not having a good day.

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The big take-away for me here is that this player admits right out that not doing DPS as a healer is something they choose. This is the kind of selfishness of which I've been critical in this thread. It's not "I'm not comfortable yet/I'm new/I didn't know the fight," it's "I don't want to (and everyone else can go to hell)."

Did they get harassed and reported for not helping with DPS? Arguable since we don't have the logs, but it sounds like a party member took exception to them being useless in a duty that requires virtually no healing, which encouraged the OP to become sassy, and the slap fight ensued from there.

TL;DR: This, ladies and gentlemen, is an example of how to be the kind of healer that is frequently called out in this thread as a bad influence and a detriment to their parties.

I actually went and looked at the thread. Some good tips, and some not so good tips, can be found there.

As for that post specifically? I have no patience for people like that. Freaking out because someone asks you to dps? That goes beyond deciding not to do something.

Someone asking is not the same as someone telling.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

The offensive abilities you get aren't just for soloing. That's my opinion on the matter tbh.

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Wrong actually. The reasons why healers have DP capabilitys is to be able to solo content like other jobs can. There primary function is to keep the party alive,and if they feel they have the nessary skill they can throw some DPS in to it. But they are not required to. As a Alpha Tester this is how those healing jobs were designed. Players should not be harassed for not DPSing in the healing depart-ment. If they have the skill to do it thens that's great,but they are not required to.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

bull*** group

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I agree, this was an stupid situation and I am sorry you had to discover something like this. Ofc your missing damage was not the reason for wiping in this scenario.

But I find it hard to understand, why you come from: "There was a single group that kicked me, because I was not dpsing and acted really mean." to "The community puts too much pressure on healers and dpsing healers should not be found in general." :(
I mean, one group =/= the community. :(

Maybe you should try to find yourself a static instead of going with changing groups? If you find it hard/need more time to learn fights and feel comfortable with mechanics and stance dancing that is totally fine and I am 100% sure there are people out there, who will gladly have you in their group. ^^
But you also have to see that not all people are nice and patient and there are some d***heads out there, who will always tell others off to compensate their own lack of whatever. :/

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Originally Posted by Melondra

Wrong actually. The reasons why healers have DP capabilitys is to be able to solo content like other jobs can. There primary function is to keep the party alive,and if they feel they have the nessary skill they can throw some DPS in to it. But they are not required to. As a Alpha Tester this is how those healing jobs were designed. Players should not be harassed for not DPSing in the healing depart-ment. If they have the skill to do it thens that's great,but they are not required to.

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So every other job can't get away with just standing atound, but the healers can? That seems a little unfair and a bit imbalanced.

Scholar is a healer yet its being treated as an extra dps, dps that dont dps fine, you can kick or ban or shun whatever . That, in my opinion, is not acceptable for a healer as they have much better healing potential, than they have dps. Using my full healing potential though is not allowed. Theres something not quite 'right' with this. In favour always of the dps god. Yet quotes seen clearly state content is clearable without healer dps. If most people saw healer dps as a bonus rather than a necessity then maybe scholars could reach their full potential as healers. Just seems to be such a fixed mindset here of what everyone should be doing. Maybe someone somewhere can have a different way of looking at things, or doing things.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

So every other job can't get away with just standing atound, but the healers can? That seems a little unfair and a bit imbalanced.

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Healer don't just stand around,they must follow mechanics just like anyone else. But there primary goal is to keep your party alive. The current sytem in the duty finder is set up so you have the reqired DPS to complte the objective already,unless premaid.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

But I find it hard to understand, why you come from: "There was a single group that kicked me, because I was not dpsing and acted really mean." to "The community puts too much pressure on healers and dpsing healers should not be found in general." :(
I mean, one group =/= the community. :(

Maybe you should try to find yourself a static instead of going with changing groups? If you find it hard/need more time to learn fights and feel comfortable with mechanics and stance dancing that is totally fine and I am 100% sure there are people out there, who will gladly have you in their group. ^^
But you also have to see that not all people are nice and patient and there are some d***heads out there, who will always tell others off to compensate their own lack of whatever. :/

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Yes see how that looks. General consesus, I am talking about, or general expectation. Not just of one group but potentially the community as a whole .

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Originally Posted by Melondra

Wrong actually. The reasons why healers have DP capabilitys is to be able to solo content like other jobs can. There primary function is to keep the party alive,and if they feel they have the nessary skill they can throw some DPS in to it. But they are not required to. As a Alpha Tester this is how those healing jobs were designed. Players should not be harassed for not DPSing in the healing depart-ment. If they have the skill to do it thens that's great,but they are not required to.

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That is blatantly false. Holy and Gravity are two of the strongest aoes in the entire game. In fact, due to their range, they will out-damage actual DPS jobs. You do not give these kinds of abilities to jobs if you aren't expecting them to deal damage in parties. The MSQ never challenges players in such a way you'd need more than Stone I-II-III. Healer DPS isn't required in harder content because it unfairly pressures on the raid as a whole. Gordias is a prime example of even hardcore raiders cringing. They don't want fights where DPS jobs (and Tanks to a lesser extent) cannot reach the DPS checks without healers. Nonetheless, Savage is community driven. You will find statics in very short supply if you aren't willing to DPS. It isn't elitism to require everyone pull their weight.

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Originally Posted by Melondra

Healer don't just stand around,they must follow mechanics just like anyone else. But there primary goal is to keep your party alive. The current sytem in the duty finder is set up so you have the reqired DPS to complte the objective already,unless premaid.

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Let me reword that.

When I said "stand around" I meant not properly using their GCD or MP to keep active. If you ignore your damage spells in most group content there is no way you won't be wasting GCDs with nothing or needless healing. I wasn't being literal. Phrasal verbs and all that.

And I'm curious. Did anyone during Alpha actually say that CNJ/WHM were designed with the intention of healing with every GCD?

Always
Be
Casting

If the party and the tank don't need heals, you're helping the party by, bare minimum, switching to CS and adding dots.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Yes got that point, but look at it another way. Rolled as healer but not allowed to heal even when necessary, or ostracized for doing what job was intended to do mainly

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Please stop playing the victim. You gave us all one instance where the group turned on you for their faults or however it went. So? I messed up plenty when first adjusting to tanking. A good few times I'd hold Living Dead to the last second thinking it was an instant cast. What happened? Dropped dead with no Walking Dead active. Likewise, I've miss timed my cooldowns and wiped groups before. It happens. You dust yourself off, apologize for the mistake and move on. If someone chews you out, oh well. There are shitty people who won't tolerant even the slightest error. How dare you not be perfect, right? Yeah, they're idiots. Anything they say goes in one ear and out the other. We're all going to make mistakes and we're all going to have stupid parties where people scream over the smallest things. That's why Tales of the Duty Finder exist: we get to laugh at those types of people.

You only become the problem when you refuse to improve because a bad experience happened. I'll take a healer who occasionally wipes the party because they miss timed benediction or got stuck in Cleric Stance without realizing over a healer who won't even touch the latter. Why? Because they made a mistake while trying to improve. That is okay.

Why not join a static that is perfectly happy for you to do no dps at all?

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

Why not join a static that is perfectly happy for you to do no dps at all?

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I feel like this is a rhetorical question, but I'm going to answer anyway: because there probably isn't one.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

. Freaking out because someone asks you to dps? That goes beyond deciding not to do something.

Someone asking is not the same as someone telling.

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Reminds me of that time we ran Tam-Tara Normal together and the SCH we got literally did nothing but jump around while Eos healed, and when you asked her to DPS she bolted on the run. Hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Melondra

As a Alpha Tester .

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oh ho!

But anyway, onto something that actually matters: healers who spend 75% of a run doing nothing but overhealing or not casting spells are a waste of the most impactful role in the game.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

And I'm curious. Did anyone during Alpha actually say that CNJ/WHM were designed with the intention of healing with every GCD?

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Nope. CNJ was a DPS class with healing skills even in 1.0.

Farming Raptors for the first year of the game didn't take much healing and the extra DPS helped to level faster.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Nope. CNJ was a DPS class with healing skills even in 1.0.

Farming Raptors for the first year of the game didn't take much healing and the extra DPS helped to level faster.

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Both Deciple of Magic could be EITHER DPS or Healer, only doing both, when in smaller groups. Endgame they specced and picked which role they wanted to be. (Such as WHM going VIT for Stoneskin)

As for raptors, idk, those Fricker hit hard if ur no MRD or GLA.
MNK could tank with its evasion, though it woudl get unlucky.
LNC was a joke of a tank, though it had the highest threat, so I was always forced into tanking, since a GLA wasnt going to pull hate off me. But the only fight I didnt tank was Nael, which some better geared DRGs were able to tank that fight.

ARC was pretty much the only class that didnt have the ability to be 1 of 2 roles.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Please stop playing the victim. You gave us all one instance where the group turned on you for their faults or however it went.

You only become the problem when you refuse to improve because a bad experience happened. I'll take a healer who occasionally wipes the party because they miss timed benediction or got stuck in Cleric Stance without realizing over a healer who won't even touch the latter. Why? Because they made a mistake while trying to improve. That is okay.

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I'm playing no victim but tbh Im done, you people just seem to cricize any one that says anything that doesnt fit in with how you want the game to be. Dps healer or gtfo.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I feel like this is a rhetorical question, but I'm going to answer anyway: because there probably isn't one.

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Believe me, there are way too many. In many statics I did more damage than my SCH offhealers.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I'm playing no victim but tbh Im done, you people just seem to cricize any one that says anything that doesnt fit in with how you want the game to be. Dps healer or gtfo.

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The people here critisise arguments that go against the truth. The game is designed and played in such a way that DPSing as a healer is the most effective way to play the role (and also supports your group the most), and that's the objective truth. That is why it doesn't make any sense to present or support arguments that not DPSing would be a "valid play style". There aren't multiple valid play styles for any job in this game, it's just how it is. Either face the truth or don't, but don't try to pretend there are alternatives for it.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I'm playing no victim but tbh Im done, you people just seem to cricize any one that says anything that doesnt fit in with how you want the game to be. Dps healer or gtfo.

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So you want to heal and you pick the only healing class that has a healing bot that can solo heal most of the fights in this game. Then you complain that you don't want to micromanage that bot in savage content and that why the class is just a glorified DPS. Tell me more about it, I'm interested.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Nope. CNJ was a DPS class with healing skills even in 1.0.

Farming Raptors for the first year of the game didn't take much healing and the extra DPS helped to level faster.

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IIRC wasn't Aeroga or w/e how you spelled it was commonly used to aoe farm?

In my opinion a healers primary job is to heal and keep everyone alive. When and if they have time in between healing they should be helping dps unless they are low on mp where they would run the risk of not having the mp to heal if they dps.

If everyone knows what their job is and how to use that job to it's full potential, any dungeon/raid should go rather quick and smoothly providing their level and/or ilevel is high enough. If they are just high enough to be able to do that raid/dungeon it will take longer in comparison to those that are at the level cap for that instance.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

snip.

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They could simply greatly reduce our healing output.
I don't necessarly want everyone to be under a permanent threat of being bursted for the sake of forcing both healer to heal.
You could keep the dmg as it and greatly reduce healer's healing potential forcing them to effectively heal more than 5sec every minute.


I agree that Healing shouldn't be the most alienating and stressful job. No job should be, but weither it would require a proper rework or not, I believe that most healer who started the game, those casual healer as you pointed, probably rolled healer to heal, not to be some proto-dps. Sure, some might love the whole dps thing... but at the core, if you role a healer to dps 90% of a fight there's obviously something wrong with your job selection.

Seriously, do you know someone clueless about the current dpsheal meta saying after buying the game and going through the available jobs "dude, White mage sounds like a good job to dps, I'll roll WHM"

I know some people in my FC hate healing because of that, there7s this pressure of doing as much as dps AND keep people alive (and make up for their mistake)

I selected Astro as primary job because I enjoy healing. I don't mind shooting dot during 4men that I greatly overgear. I don't mind shooting dot or dps during some smoother phases, but I do mind being told I MUST dps and keep my DoTs otherwise the group lacks dps... seriously, just reverse the situation, assuming all DPS role would have a way to heal, how would most player choosing the dps role feel about having to heal half of the a fight duration?

Hopefully they will do something for Stormblood as it is not the first time this kind of topic emerges, even on french and japanese forum the discussion can be wild. (dunno about german I can't read german)

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

They could simply greatly reduce our healing output.

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The issue will remain with overgearing content though (as well as balancing casual and hard content). For current expert dungeons, the item level requirement is 210, and people can be running them at i270. How would you balance the healing potencies and healing requirements of the dungeon? Unless you put level and item level cap for every content, which would make gearing up pretty much useless.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

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I selected Astro as primary job because I enjoy healing. I don't mind shooting dot during 4men that I greatly overgear. I don't mind shooting dot or dps during some smoother phases, but I do mind being told I MUST dps and keep my DoTs otherwise the group lacks dps... seriously, just reverse the situation, assuming all DPS role would have a way to heal, how would most player choosing the dps role feel about having to heal half of the a fight duration?

Hopefully they will do something for Stormblood as it is not the first time this kind of topic emerges, even on french and japanese forum the discussion can be wild. (dunno about german I can't read german)

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I selected DPS because I wanted to be doing damage.

Why do I have to reduce my enmity? Why do I have to give TP/MP song? Why do I have to Virus/Eye for an Eye?

Because it helps the team.

People need to understand that, a healer who optimizes their DPS STILL HEALS.
But they are by far and large better healers because they HEAL LESS. They are so efficient at their job, they make DPS openings for themselves. And then they go and aid in defeating the boss, which is the goal of the fight which everyone contributes in.

Healer is your title, but what you do as a player, determines whether or not you are a good healer. So instead of settling just for what your job title means, why not be more? You're not a healbot or meatwall or machinegun. You're an X Job. You're the White Robbed cleric that brings succor to your allies and destruction to your foes through elemental mastery. (Disclaimer: I don't know WHM lore.)

You are not a one dimensional healbot.

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Originally Posted by Taika

The people here critisise arguments that go against the truth. The game is designed and played in such a way that DPSing as a healer is the most effective way to play the role (and also supports your group the most), and that's the objective truth. That is why it doesn't make any sense to present or support arguments that not DPSing would be a "valid play style". There aren't multiple valid play styles for any job in this game, it's just how it is. Either face the truth or don't, but don't try to pretend there are alternatives for it.

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I just dont get that logic when a healer is who has great healing spells is forced to dps 90% of the time. Plus that argument is really putting me off the game. Id like to enjoy it

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I just dont get that logic when a healer is who has great healing spells is forced to dps 90% of the time. Plus that argument is really putting me off the game. Id like to enjoy it

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You not liking it doesn't make it any less true. It's like someone would like to play BRD who only sings (FFXI style, for example), and would try to push for that play style in this game and claim it's a valid play style. It wouldn't be, and they wouldn't be accepted in parties either. Their songs are great, but only singing them and doing nothing else to support the group just isn't enough!

Try finding a job with a play style you actually enjoy in this game! If you can't, then unfortunately maybe the game just isn't for you.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

So you want to heal and you pick the only healing class that has a healing bot that can solo heal most of the fights in this game. Then you complain that you don't want to micromanage that bot in savage content and that why the class is just a glorified DPS. Tell me more about it, I'm interested.

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Didnt complain about the fact of micromanaging the pet its just the amount I was expected to do as well as heal in the spaces allowed by the fight when with another healer that isnt healing enough. This is just it everything I say here is twisted. Plus every twisted reply I get is 'liked'

I'm pretty sure most people do understand that healers that are good at dpsing while keeping people alive anyway are helping the team more than healers that aren't dpsing. There's nothing wrong with not liking it though. It also doesn't automatically mean they don't do it to help their team anyway.

I might be misunderstanding/misreading some posts but sometimes people seem to snap at someone for just wishing for the current heal meta to be different. lol (Dont mean anyone in particular but sometimes it seems to go "Meh I dont really like dpsing as a healer, I wanna heal as a healer!" - "OMG u must be a bad egoistic healer that never wants to help ur team ewww" - "...no I do try to dps whenever I can I just dont like it..." - "Y U NO UNDERSTAND! ur a bigger help if u dps too!" - "...but I do..." XD Sorry dont mean to offend anyone.

If the meta's not gonna change (assume it's not but what do I know), people need to either adjust to it if they havent already or look for another job/role they might enjoy more, like Taika already said.

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Originally Posted by Taika

You not liking it doesn't make it any less true. It's like someone would like to play BRD who only sings (FFXI style, for example), and would try to push for that play style in this game and claim it's a valid play style. It wouldn't be, and they wouldn't be accepted in parties either. Their songs are great, but only singing them and doing nothing else to support the group just isn't enough!

Try finding a job with a play style you actually enjoy in this game! If you can't, then unfortunately maybe the game just isn't for you.

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like I said basically dps or gtfo isnt it? Thats your truth Im not sure SE had that in mind but still you all 'win' atm

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Originally Posted by Feyona

like I said basically dps or gtfo isnt it?

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Well there is still no reason not to DPS.

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Originally Posted by LucyDaernos

I might be misunderstanding/misreading some posts but sometimes people seem to snap at someone for just wishing for the current heal meta to be different. lol (Dont mean anyone in particular but sometimes it seems to go "Meh I dont really like dpsing as a healer, I wanna heal as a healer!" - "OMG u must be a bad egoistic healer that never wants to help ur team ewww" - "...no I do try to dps whenever I can I just dont like it..." - "Y U NO UNDERSTAND! ur a bigger help if u dps too!" - "...but I do..." XD Sorry dont mean to offend anyone.

If the meta's not gonna change (assume it's not but what do I know), people need to either adjust to it if they havent already or look for another job/role they might enjoy more, like Taika already said.

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Its right thats kind of it in a nutshell, except it wasnt merely not liking its difficult and stressful if you dont get a good healing partner and we dont always get one of those

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Yes see how that looks. General consesus, I am talking about, or general expectation. Not just of one group but potentially the community as a whole .

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Uhm... I'm sorry, but your way of arguing doesn't make any sense.

You had one group kicking you, because you didn't dps, while all of them failed every mechanic? Then screw them, obviously they aren't worth even thinking about them.
Or were there more groups like this? Statics refusing you, because you wanted to stay out of CS for practicing the raid? How many? What were the people like? Really all of them? Or just some people and others thought differently?

I will bring up my own arguments from before, ever since it seems like you didn't even read them or at least didn't said anything to it nor did you answer my question from before.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

Maybe you should try to find yourself a static instead of going with changing groups? If you find it hard/need more time to learn fights and feel comfortable with mechanics and stance dancing that is totally fine and I am 100% sure there are people out there, who will gladly have you in their group. ^^
But you also have to see that not all people are nice and patient and there are some d***heads out there, who will always tell others off to compensate their own lack of whatever. :/

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

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1. I've gone over why either decreasing healing output or increasing damage input without significantly changing the current system would not accomplish the intended goal. And that's assuming there is something wrong, which is arguable.

2. Again, DPS are not expected to heal primarily because no one needs them to. Even if they were any good at it, a DPS healing would never be desirable unless the healer were incapacitated.

It's no surprise that the healer, requiring many fewer GCDs to perform their primary function than the other two roles, would be expected to actually do something with that "free" time. A DPS, on the other hand, ideally has every single GCD consumed with attacking.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

You had one group kicking you, because you didn't dps, while all of them failed every mechanic? Then screw them, obviously they aren't worth even thinking about them.
Or were there more groups like this? Statics refusing you, because you wanted to stay out of CS for practicing the raid? How many? What were the people like? Really all of them? Or just some people and others thought differently?

I will bring up my own arguments from before, ever since it seems like you didn't even read them or at least didn't said anything to it nor did you answer my question from before.

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This isnt meant to be rude,but this is a bit like writing a degree assigment, where every point has to be explained with references. Every, static that I know of expects, scholar to be the dps OH. In my experience, this is expected, the problem is with the expectations of the comunity in which some may have no understand of the difficuly or stress put on the person

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Originally Posted by Feyona

This isnt meant to be rude,but this is a bit like writing a degree assigment, where every point has to be explained with references. Every, static that I know of expects, scholar to be the dps OH. In my experience, this is expected, the problem is with the expectations of the comunity in which some may have no understand of the difficuly or stress put on the person

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I'll be blunt. Do you want to clear Savage or not? this isn't casual content, you do what is demanded to clear the fight or you don't. There is no middle ground where you clear stress free.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

This isnt meant to be rude,but this is a bit like writing a degree assigment, where every point has to be explained with references. Every, static that I know of expects, scholar to be the dps OH. In my experience, this is expected, the problem is with the expectations of the comunity in which some may have no understand of the difficuly or stress put on the person

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Putting aside for the moment that we're talking about the most difficult content in the game, difficulty and stress are subjective.

Playing DPS can be more stressful than playing healer in some fights, depending on the player. For example, healers are rarely held to the same standard of 100% efficiency of action since they are expected to adapt when people make mistakes.

When the party executes well, and when the healer knows the fight, healer can be the easiest role while they predict damage and carry on with their simple DPS rotation.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

This isnt meant to be rude,but this is a bit like writing a degree assigment, where every point has to be explained with references. Every, static that I know of expects, scholar to be the dps OH. In my experience, this is expected, the problem is with the expectations of the comunity in which some may have no understand of the difficuly or stress put on the person

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I tried to underline my points. You are not actually arguing, you are just calling out things and want everyone to belive that those are set in stone, instead of giving actual examples or explaining in which context your experiences were made!
And therefor it sounds for me like: "One group kicked me out of Alex savage, because I didn't dps... this community is bullsh***!" (Exaggeration here, but ever since you don't give examples of things that actually happend, it seems you are just looking at one group and generalize from their behaviour to whole community, which is more than unfair! :<)

And again, you did not give any answer to any of my questions. I don't want to be rude or anything, but it seems as if you tried entering savage content once, got a bad group and decided you don't like the way fights/healers are designed and you don't like the community. :/
All I ask for is more information, so I can try to understand your point of view.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

This is just it everything I say here is twisted. Plus every twisted reply I get is 'liked'

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No one is twisting anything. We are or, in my case and a few other's cases, were trying to understand your points and trying to get you to understand our points. But everytime some one replies with what they believe you are saying or argues against a point you made, or it seems you have made, you tell them they are not reading your posts and are bullies or twisting what you are saying.

No one here is even sure where you stand on most things that's why they are asking you and correcting you on things. They are not attacking you, but once you get defensive and start making accusations some people are going to stop trying.

Do you even understand the stance of many of us on the pro DPS side? Who knows.