Tank Gear's Value for the Future.

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Originally Posted by Kyros

Isn't WoW plagued with the "2 tanks for 40-people raid" problem? Seems like poor design to me.

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That was a long time ago, even before the first expansion came out on WoW.
Nowadays it is more 10/25 people, with 2 or 3 tanks in the raid.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

WoW since you mentioned it, tanks do like 20-25k dps, dps do 100-120k dps. In FFXI most of the time tanks were doing not much damage at all. Most of the mmos I played had tanks focus on getting more hp or damage mitigation and not dps.

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I don't know how it's now, but I think it was in Pandaria when main tanks could do great damage and maybe even out damage dps classes in some fights because of how their mechanics worked. The more you took damage, the more you also dished out. It is true, though, that this is the first MMO I've played where everyone focuses getting higher DPS regardless of their job.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

In other MMOs tanks do around 20%-25% of the damage of what a DPS can do so their damage is really irrelevant. FFXIV is the first MMO I seen where tanks actually can do a lot of damage but that was achieved with using STR acc which the devs didn't plan for. If you were full fending and tank stance it actually is about the same as other mmos with that 25% of what a dps can do.

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From what I can tell, the intended values were closer to 65% to 70% in DpS stance and about 48% to 50% in tank stance. 30% more STR than intended and a few unintended combos (*cough*Triple Berserk Fell Cleave *cough*) are what pushed the numbers up to 80%/90%.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

I don't know how it's now, but I think it was in Pandaria when main tanks could do great damage and maybe even out damage dps classes in some fights because of how their mechanics worked. The more you took damage, the more you also dished out. It is true, though, that this is the first MMO I've played where everyone focuses getting higher DPS regardless of their job.

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On LFR, the first fight of the second wing of the Mantid raid, tanks could go and hit over 1 million DPS while normal DPS were around 200k or less if they took the boss and all the adds, then spammed AoE attacks. It was insane.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Both strength and vitality will increase damage. So to make that value fair in the future tank jewelry would have to have both to be a 1 for 1 value in damage. THAT would be IMBALANCED now of course. However, in the future it would need to be done.

It would mean though every expansion tank's damage will go down automatically by 15-20%.

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If Vit gets more value than Str then in the future we dont even need to worry about loosing dmg. Also I believe in the Live Letter thay said Str will be weaker than Str. So it will probably be something like from str x5 Vit x 0 to Str x2 and Vit x 3. That would make tanks slightly just slightly stronger than a tank in full slaying accesories is now.

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Originally Posted by Ronyx

If Vit gets more value than Str then in the future we dont even need to worry about loosing dmg. Also I believe in the Live Letter thay said Str will be weaker than Str. So it will probably be something like from str x5 Vit x 0 to Str x2 and Vit x 3. That would make tanks slightly just slightly stronger than a tank in full slaying accesories is now.

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Basically with the upcoming change... Even if VIT = STR in damage value. Being in VIT accessories is simply better as it would ALSO provide the HP cushion.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

The issue is that WAR DPS is through the roof (as is DRK, and PLD is too high).

Single target
MNK 100%
NIN 98%
DRG 96%
BLM 95%
SMN 90%
BRD 80% (depending on song use, without song use numbers would be higher)
MCH 80% (depending on turret use, without support use numbers would be higher)
WAR 45%
DRK 40%
PLD 35%
SCH 15%
WHM/AST 10%

AoE
SMN 100%
BLM 95%
MNK 80%
BRD 90%
MCH 90%
DRG 75%
NIN 70%
WAR 20%
DRK 15%
PLD 10%
SCH 20%
WHM 15%
AST 10%

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If these were the numbers for tanks, I GUARANTEE you that none of the tanks will be able to hold hate even with all of the Unleashes and Flashes and Overpowers and Steel Cyclones. We would be useless.

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

If these were the numbers for tanks, I GUARANTEE you that none of the tanks will be able to hold hate even with all of the Unleashes and Flashes and Overpowers and Steel Cyclones. We would be useless.

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Heh there have been plenty of great arguments against those numbers, and I agreed that it may be better to increase it some. That said, the assumption (I thought obviously) was that enmity generation would be adjusted with the new damage numbers.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

5. BLM loses enochian
6. Melee lose positionals
7. Parsers are added
8. Raids (and dungeons?) add CC importance
9. Gathering had little barrier to entry
10. Crafting was made simplistic

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This entire list scares me...Housing should be free? Ever heard of the Tragedy of the Commons?
Adding Parsers will totally shun players who are trying to learn their class.
Remove Mindless Grind? You mean removing one of the key parts of what defines an MMO?
Melee losing positionals? Ya sure! lets just mash buttons and make all DPS boring as all get out.
Healer damage should NEVER be nerfed. If that were the case, They we would never ever see a lvl 60 WHM/SCH/AST because they can't dps their own solo quest content.

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

This entire list scares me...Housing should be free? Ever heard of the Tragedy of the Commons?

Adding Parsers will totally shun players who are trying to learn their class.
Remove Mindless Grind? You mean removing one of the key parts of what defines an MMO?
Melee losing positionals? Ya sure! lets just mash buttons and make all DPS boring as all get out.
Healer damage should NEVER be nerfed. If that were the case, They we would never ever see a lvl 60 WHM/SCH/AST because they can't dps their own solo quest content.

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I am not sure if you've played many other MMO's, but I've played plenty where positionals are not part of the skills - and the combat is not just a random button mash fest.

Free housing was given in Wildstar and imo the housing was one of the best features of Wildstar. I'd recommend checking it out.

I disagree about the parsers shunning players, but ultimately, we could have a 200 page argument about it and at the end I'd still feel the same way I do now and you'd still feel the same way you do now. So let's just preemptively agree to disagree.

Healers could have specs in the way that every other MMO works so that you can DPS in the open world and heal in grouped content.

I think mindless grinds are not great game design and content could be done in better ways.

PS: Care to elaborate on how you are applying tradgedy of the commons to this situation?



EDIT Forum count hit

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

As it stands, housing is in fair abundance depending on what server you are on. If housing were made free, everyone would want a house of their own. They would keep a lock and key on all of the Mansion level houses. People who do not play as often would own 5 different houses in their area and players searching for a house for their FC will have no way of contacting them IRL. Many people have more than 1 mansion in the game, and yet, in my opinion, they don't deserve it. We also can't forget server load on the houses that have been taken. Once someone gets rid of the house they owned, there will be 500 other players waiting at their front door to take it. Housing should be earned by a group of people willing to save up for one and call it their own. It is also a mark that you leave on the server as a Free Company that could be well known.

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I think you misunderstood my housing request. I want it like Wildstar where everyone is given 1 housing plot. You don't buy them, you don't sell them, you don't own more than one, there are no limited number of plots available. Each character gets 1 period.