What makes WHM special? Nothing anymore.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

However, the point I was making was referencing the loss of identity, not simply the loss in potency.

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But as I and many others have already stated countless times, whm still has it's identity. It's still the pure healer of the game, with the strongest raid healing output and best healing toolkit. Nothing changed that. I don't know how many times this needs to be stated.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

The problem is that people have spent more time attacking the person than anything else. Probably half the pages in this thread are nothing more than "oh yeah well you don't have whm leveled." That doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. Even when someone is completely uninformed you can still have a proper discussion and explain why their wrong. For some reason all the job boards just love to tell people their uninformed and walk away.

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Actually, many people have explained a lot. Including myself. However, the reason I (and possibly the others) started to go into "attack mode" is because these complaints started as uneducated opinions based on feelings. There was very little fact to being with, and most of the facts they did use have been distorted as to cause fear mongering. So it's kinda hard to counter them beyond listing whm's toolkit and and explaining why it's better. Which was done multiple times in this thread alone.

This isn't isolated to this thread either. So I imagine that many others like myself are just tired of repeating the same thing over and over to people being willfully ignorant.

Sick of watch all these meaningless drama. Haha

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

This isn't isolated to this thread either. So I imagine that many others like myself are just tired of repeating the same thing over and over to people being willfully ignorant.

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The problem is it actually perpetuates the problem doing this. I read this thread and I see the vast majority of people just attacking each other, many that attempt the give facts usually quickly turn to attacks and when they don't it's often then pointing to a minor difference in two or three skills and I ask "if it's so objectively better why all the insults?" The moment people cross that line they lose credibility. If a person looks at someone making a wrong, but valid argument in a level headed way, and someone saying something truthful in an insulting way, the second person is far less likely to be believed. There's just never a good reason to ever go into the kind of attacks you see regularly on these boards. It's not going to make people stop, it doesn't lend credibility to anyone it just makes everything worse. If you believe someone truly isn't listening then the solution isn't to attack them.

How does anyone get useful information when most of the thread looks like a bunch of kids on the playground going "nuh uh, yeah huh, huh uh"?

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Originally Posted by Rewind

Why does WHM have to compete with anything? Why do healers have to compete with each other? It's not a war or anything, they're mean to be working together :P If all you care about is HPS metres, Healing is probably not a class for you.

WHM still has far better burst DPS (PoM is attack speed only btw), better AoE DPS (Holy>Gravity), more increased HPS utility, very strong instant aoe heal, better MP regen.

Divine Seal is one of the strongest healing buff spells in game because it also increases the potency of hot ticks as well as the initial heal. Light speed does not work the way in you describe as it only reduces cast time not GCD making it quite clunky to use, though not entirely useless.

AST is now somewhat comparative HPS wise but a WHM is always going to be the strongest raid healer out of the three.

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This.

I main a WHM. I also play SCH and AST on the side. If these buffs were too much, then -what- changes could fix it to make AST stand with WHM and SCH? I want to heal. I want to keep my party members alive. If I can't for any reason, either I'm playing the class wrong or something is wrong with the class. I was dying horribly in speedruns and raids took one look at the AST icon and went "NOPE" because they couldn't handle the pain. Now they can, and its a problem? Its not about being unique, its about keeping the party alive. Thats our job.

I look forward to heal bro fisting future ASTs since we're suppose to be partners to keep everyone else alive, not competing who is the more special snowflake that can heal more. Thats not the point of the classes here.

The main issue about white mage is that burst healing starts becoming irrelevant as more people learn the fight and get overgeared for it, we could say burst healing is negatively proportional to overgear. Now it's not noticeable because back on ARR 2.0-2.1 required a lot of burst healing, but some months after SCOB got released together with soldiery tomestones people were so overgeared that burst healing became irrelevant and so the "sch can solo heal everything" began and that kept going to fcob because yoshida didn't stop and think "damn, i130 might be a bit too much for this kind of instance".

ARR aside, overgear will come back to haunt us someday and burst healing will become irrelevant once again so it all comes down to which 2 of the 3 healers can dps the most while doing their job properly. We have scholar with a now higher burst healing capacity while being a wannabe summoner, which pretty much grants them a raid spot and then we have WHM vs AST.

WHM has the highest dps output of all 3 healers (yes even you scholars, do the math) however every single of their dps skills require accuracy which make WHM miss a lot of endgame raids, together with their non infinite MP that becomes quite inefficient. And then we have astrologians who don't have to deal with accuracy on any way unless they want to spam malefic II and place aero making up the rest of their dps by buffing others.

How do we fix this?
I have to persist in the replacement of the completely useless enhanced medica I trait for a conjurer only trait that increases accuracy while on cleric stance, while this won't make white mage have more utility than what it has right now, it grants that the utility it has right now is reliable now and in the future.

TL;DR : BURST HEALING BECOMES USELESS WITH OVERGEAR, GIVE WHITE MAGES LESS ACCURACY ISSUES YOSHIDA!!

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

The problem is it actually perpetuates the problem doing this.

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The facts were laid out and never countered. People just came in and repeated the same stuff OP said w/o adding anything new or challenging the counterarguments...or w/o reading what was already stated by the sound of it. There's only so much of that any reasonable non-PR professional can take without just thinking "this is really dumb".

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Originally Posted by Cedane

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It's not about the "buffing" many already stated this, its how the buffs were done - copy pasta sch/whm skills thats is the path of least resistance and its not ok.

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Originally Posted by Cedane

I main a WHM. I also play SCH and AST on the side. If these buffs were too much, then -what- changes could fix it to make AST stand with WHM and SCH?

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The problem has to do with design philosophy. Healers should all be viable of course, but the way it should be looked at is all healers should be able to accomplish the same tasks, just in different ways. To a degree sch vs whm shows this, raw healing power vs shields, they accomplish the same task, and have roughly the same healing throughput, but do so in different ways, that's what makes them interesting.

An AST should be looked at similarly. How about for example reactive heals. "Heals the target with a potency of 300, and places a reactive heal buff on target. When the target's hp drops below 60% the buff is removed and the target is healed for again with a potency of 300." Another way you could accomplish making them different is healing through hots and regens rather than direct heals. So maybe an AST has weak direct heals but can stack like 5 different regens at once. You could also make the cards account for the difference. So if AST has 20% less HPS than a whm, allow their cards to create the equivalent of 20% damage reduction over the whole fight.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

The problem has to do with design philosophy. Healers should all be viable of course, but the way it should be looked at is all healers should be able to accomplish the same tasks, just in different ways. To a degree sch vs whm shows this, raw healing power vs shields, they accomplish the same task, and have roughly the same healing throughput, but do so in different ways, that's what makes them interesting.

An AST should be looked at similarly. How about for example reactive heals. "Heals the target with a potency of 300, and places a reactive heal buff on target. When the target's hp drops below 60% the buff is removed and the target is healed for again with a potency of 300." Another way you could accomplish making them different is healing through hots and regens rather than direct heals. So maybe an AST has weak direct heals but can stack like 5 different regens at once. You could also make the cards account for the difference. So if AST has 20% less HPS than a whm, allow their cards to create the equivalent of 20% damage reduction over the whole fight.

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But could that work in practice? It sounds good on paper but would that work in the long run? We're not programmers. We're players.

Either way, I think I'd prefer the changes the way they are now. I don't want to be unique. I want to heal at my best, really. Even with alternatives, they... don't sound good to what we have now. No offense or anything.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

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Sustained DPS of cards is low sure but most fights it boils down to burst DPS, a single stocked up AoE Balance card used at the key moment can make or break a boss attempt like say both HW trials.

WHM can't do crap about it, it's DPS is roughly equal to a AST doing normal uncarded DPS on single target, an SCH does have some burst with the pet CD and such.

And the math you had asked was just simple comparisons of the -100 total potency of AST's AoE heal vs vs DS Medica 2 used on CD with Assize used on cd. A rough estimate was around 7%, but I didn't factor in Synasty's 20% buff nor CU's HoT.