Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

there are quite a few mechanics in this raid tier that require both tanks to be alive for, off the top of my head there are tank tethers that have to be taken, and in p4s p2 there is bloodstake which targets 1st and 2nd aggro, and if a tank isn't one of them you will die like a dog

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In P3S the adds also attack the second in aggro.
I've died so many times before because the Tank died and then either I just get nuked by them before they're ressed or the Tank doesn't provoke back.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

In P3S the adds also attack the second in aggro.
I've died so many times before because the Tank died and then either I just get nuked by them before they're ressed or the Tank doesn't provoke back.

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To add to this: P2S Coherence requires one tank alive to take the tether + first blast, and the second tank to be standing in front of the party for the second Wild Charge hit. Any other role taking the brunt of that hit is going to get flattened.

Not to be rude but most people I see complaining are lvl 90s and Yoshi-P stated multiples times that it's okay to leave xiv to play other games. This is not a game that's supposed to have infinite content.

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Originally Posted by Thorio

Not to be rude but most people I see complaining are lvl 90s and Yoshi-P stated multiples times that it's okay to leave xiv to play other games. This is not a game that's supposed to have infinite content.

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Also not to be rude, but your point is…? Why is it that level capped players can’t express their own dissatisfaction that the game lacks challenging end game content for healers? Or that healer gameplay continues to get more and more braindead and boring? Or even content that has longevity to match the long patch cycles (which is not even what the thread is about, by the way)? To be frank with you, none of these are new criticisms. They just continue to be ignored, or answered with comments like “If healers want a challenge, go heal Ultimate.”

I’ve healed an Ultimate. I still pressed my damage buttons more times than I was actually healing. :/

The developers need to do something about healer gameplay. Even if it’s giving each a second DoT to manage. A lot of healers would be quite happy with something extra to do—and since they’ve made it blatantly clear they are not going to up healing requirements in anything outside of Ultimate—which, as much as I enjoy it, it is content that not a lot of people even do—then maybe give us more damage buttons to press. We’re basically gimped DPS 80% of a fight anyways.

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Originally Posted by Thorio

Not to be rude but most people I see complaining are lvl 90s and Yoshi-P stated multiples times that it's okay to leave xiv to play other games. This is not a game that's supposed to have infinite content.

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Taking breaks aren't going to solve the Gameplay corcerns, at contrary It will just serve as an excuse to keep this trending and even make more Jobs fall in to this boring mold like SMN or DRK.

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Originally Posted by Thorio

Not to be rude but most people I see complaining are lvl 90s and Yoshi-P stated multiples times that it's okay to leave xiv to play other games. This is not a game that's supposed to have infinite content.

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1st: Being lv90 is the bare minimun to experience the endgame and its not even a big time invest, if reaching it is an indicator of "you should leave the game" then the game has a HUGE problem with its content.

2nd: Running away won't magically solve the healing problems that are present from sastasha to the latest savage tier, that "you can leave" excuse may work for the content droughts as content gets delivered over time but it doesn't and never will work when we talk about gameplay design issues

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

1st: Being lv90 is the bare minimun to experience the endgame and its not even a big time invest, if reaching it is an indicator of "you should leave the game" then the game has a HUGE problem with its content.

2nd: Running away won't magically solve the healing problems that are present from sastasha to the latest savage tier, that "you can leave" excuse may work for the content droughts as content gets delivered over time but it doesn't and never will work when we talk about gameplay design issues

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I have close to 450 hours and still lvl 65. I'm not sure in what world getting to 90 isn't a big time investment but okay.
Healers in specifically might be a problem, I admit I have little experience as one as I pretty much just have a lvl 51 astro but it's just the philosophy of the dev team and in general really. You can't expect to play 8 to 10 hours a day and never run out of content, it's unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by Thorio

I have close to 450 hours and still lvl 65. I'm not sure in what world getting to 90 isn't a big time investment but okay.

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The leveling experience is just a part of this game. Endgame is the other part—and it is the part players will remain at for the longest. Not the leveling part. Why should endgame have nothing for those who have reached it?

This isn’t even the point of this thread. You’ve completely missed what the discussion is about, which is healer gameplay. Be it at level 1 or level 90, the gameplay is suffering and has been suffering for two full expansions now.

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Originally Posted by Thorio

I have close to 450 hours and still lvl 65. I'm not sure in what world getting to 90 isn't a big time investment but okay.
Healers in specifically might be a problem, I admit I have little experience as one as I pretty much just have a lvl 51 astro but it's just the philosophy of the dev team and in general really. You can't expect to play 8 to 10 hours a day and never run out of content, it's unrealistic.

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Replying to the edit—

Again, content density is NOT what this thread is about. This thread is about healer gameplay, and the myriad of issues surrounding it.

Even other jobs aside from healers have gameplay issues that need addressing. The leveling experience for some of jobs is terrible now due to skill pruning that has happened over the years and other job changes; and endgame job balance is actually some of the worst this game has seen.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The leveling experience is just a part of this game. Endgame is the other part—and it is the part players will remain at for the longest. Not the leveling part. Why should endgame have nothing for those who have reached it?

This isn’t even the point of this thread. You’ve completely missed what the discussion is about, which is healer gameplay. Be it at level 1 or level 90, the gameplay is suffering and has been suffering for two full expansions now.



Replying to the edit—

Again, content density is NOT what this thread is about. This thread is about healer gameplay, and the myriad of issues surrounding it.

Even other jobs aside from healers have gameplay issues that need addressing. The leveling experience for some of jobs is terrible now due to skill pruning that has happened over the years and other job changes; and endgame job balance is actually some of the worst this game has seen.

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You're right, sorry about the misconception.

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Originally Posted by Thorio

You're right, sorry about the misconception.

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It’s all right. No worries.

Content longevity and endgame is another discussion that I think is a good one to have. It’s just been brought up multiple times in the past, and the opinions are divisive at best. It feels a bit like a beaten horse at this point, but I have been around this forum for quite some time—so it could just be me feeling this way.

This just wasn’t a discussion pertaining to it.

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Originally Posted by Thorio

I have close to 450 hours and still lvl 65. I'm not sure in what world getting to 90 isn't a big time investment but okay.
Healers in specifically might be a problem, I admit I have little experience as one as I pretty much just have a lvl 51 astro but it's just the philosophy of the dev team and in general really. You can't expect to play 8 to 10 hours a day and never run out of content, it's unrealistic.

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This thread isn't about content, it relates to healer design feedback. What does "it's just the philosophy of the dev team ' even mean?

https://ibb.co/Vtbhx3v

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Originally Posted by Thorio

I have close to 450 hours and still lvl 65. I'm not sure in what world getting to 90 isn't a big time investment but okay.
Healers in specifically might be a problem, I admit I have little experience as one as I pretty much just have a lvl 51 astro but it's just the philosophy of the dev team and in general really. You can't expect to play 8 to 10 hours a day and never run out of content, it's unrealistic.

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First lv90 is the one that takes time because the MSQ gating, past that you can get any job up to lv90 very quickly as long as you know what you're doing so its not a big time investment and as said is the bare minimun to experience endgame content and how the jobs are designed because a lot of them simply do not have their core elements at low levels and their rotations are planned with lv90 skills in mind.

The focus of this thread is not about time or content (thats another can of worms) though but how healers are by a long shot the worst designed jobs in the game and their gameplay simply do not fit the battle design we're given and how our complains go either unheard of simply are played down like the "go play ultimate" the producer gave us.

Just bumping this up so that this stays close to the front page.

Anyways, I find it how they reworded it in the digest compared to how it was in the live letter. The translation from the reddit discord was "You’re probably comparing the raid as it is now to what you had in Patch 5.4 (Eden’s Promise) but you have to remember that in 6.0 we added new jobs and we’re still balancing things and give people a chance to clear if they possibly can and from there we’ll raise the challenge level in part 2 and 3 of Pandaemonium. I think even at that point if you’re still unsatisfied thinking “healing is too easy”, definitely try the Ultimate content and suffer."

Then look at it in the live letter digest "
A: We hold back on the difficulty of the initial Savage raids of each expansion to allow more people to clear, which goes for Asphodelos as well.

I imagine a lot of comparisons are being drawn between the current encounters and the Savage encounters added in Patch 5.4, but the difficulty will be gradually increased as players get more comfortable with their jobs again. But should you yearn for more, please look forward to Dragonsong’s Reprise (Ultimate)!

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Just bumping this up so that this stays close to the front page.

Anyways, I find it how they reworded it in the digest compared to how it was in the live letter. The translation from the reddit discord was "You’re probably comparing the raid as it is now to what you had in Patch 5.4 (Eden’s Promise) but you have to remember that in 6.0 we added new jobs and we’re still balancing things and give people a chance to clear if they possibly can and from there we’ll raise the challenge level in part 2 and 3 of Pandaemonium. I think even at that point if you’re still unsatisfied thinking “healing is too easy”, definitely try the Ultimate content and suffer."

Then look at it in the live letter digest "
A: We hold back on the difficulty of the initial Savage raids of each expansion to allow more people to clear, which goes for Asphodelos as well.

I imagine a lot of comparisons are being drawn between the current encounters and the Savage encounters added in Patch 5.4, but the difficulty will be gradually increased as players get more comfortable with their jobs again. But should you yearn for more, please look forward to Dragonsong’s Reprise (Ultimate)!

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Doesn't really matter how they reworded it since it missed the point of the question entirely either way.

I mean, the question for the live letter couldn't have been written out more clearly and even went out of its way to place examples on what healers are upset about. Somehow...they still chose to assume it has something to do with content difficulty vs healers having an engaging kit that doesn't rely on us getting a terrible party...but here we are... Do we really need to pull a "male viera" thread moment to get this through them, I like to think not but... again... here we are.

So, im just going to say this, of course healers get treated that way. With the concept of only regen/barrier. I quit over it after stormblood originally...

Lets be honest it was noticeable when they removed protect as well same with stoneskin on whm

Back when ast was fun to play bole grating defense, arrow/spear granting haste tbh, ewer and spire increasing buff duration etc that was what made ast fun but they were not smart enough to realize buff healers could been a 3rd type.


But wow and ffxiv and tbh all mmos have a huge issue.

That issue is devs saying "play how i think you should or ur screwed"
Wow devs basically made u play daily if u want to get any were punishing u if u stop.

Ffxiv devs punish you if u keep playing.

I'm sorry but devs need to face the facts and stop basically guilt triping if you don't game how they view u should. Because their ideology doesn't matter outside of themselves.

They also believe in false hoods that the numbers, are the most important.
Id play stormblood ast over this one even if the heals and dps was 79% lower. Because it was fun and enjoyable pre stormblood and in stormblood

Also mmos devs like to use the excuse "you cant please everyone" but yes you can there is a reason games don't just have 4 classes/jobs. To give different combat style and playstyle. With different skill level for each.
And yes all mmos do this just in different ways.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Just bumping this up so that this stays close to the front page.

Anyways, I find it how they reworded it in the digest compared to how it was in the live letter. The translation from the reddit discord was "You’re probably comparing the raid as it is now to what you had in Patch 5.4 (Eden’s Promise) but you have to remember that in 6.0 we added new jobs and we’re still balancing things and give people a chance to clear if they possibly can and from there we’ll raise the challenge level in part 2 and 3 of Pandaemonium. I think even at that point if you’re still unsatisfied thinking “healing is too easy”, definitely try the Ultimate content and suffer."

Then look at it in the live letter digest "
A: We hold back on the difficulty of the initial Savage raids of each expansion to allow more people to clear, which goes for Asphodelos as well.

I imagine a lot of comparisons are being drawn between the current encounters and the Savage encounters added in Patch 5.4, but the difficulty will be gradually increased as players get more comfortable with their jobs again. But should you yearn for more, please look forward to Dragonsong’s Reprise (Ultimate)!

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It should not take several patches for classes to feel complete. I get there are balancing issues but the question was in regards to healer not feeling like healers, and there dps rotation being 1 button. Yoshi P has stated almost every expansion when healer DPS rotation is mentioned is healers are designed to heal, they should not need to DPS to clear savage content but this is not true. The difficulty of savage also does not matter when healers are not needing to heal for any content outside of savage. This answer Yoshi P provides avoids the question all together. It seems like an answer where Yoshi P assumes this is a new player and there are no problems, but truth is this has been a complaint for years.

As a side note there have been previous raids where healers had to do things for the party to survive, such as esuna debuffs, shield prey mechanics ect. but the game has not utilized mechanics to use there kit in a long time outside of a dungeon here and there.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Doesn't really matter how they reworded it since it missed the point of the question entirely either way.

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It could be extremely easy excuse to say yeah they read them live but they had these questions well in advance and you know they vetted every single one.

They should have at minimum got the question right, which they didn't.

The Live Letters are an amazing glimpse into the dev team but they're 100% on the dev teams terms. What needs to happen is a "Deep Dive" series where they bring in the dev team, especially some of the battle designers and speak will real people outside of the team so they can get out of their echo chamber.

Get some real perspective.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

It could be extremely easy excuse to say yeah they read them live but they had these questions well in advance and you know they vetted every single one.

They should have at minimum got the question right, which they didn't.

The Live Letters are an amazing glimpse into the dev team but they're 100% on the dev teams turn. What needs to happen is a "Deep Dive" series where they bring in the dev team, especially some of the battle designers and speak will real people outside of the team so they can get out of their echo chamber.

Get some real perspective.

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Unfortunately, there are people who like the dumbed down, braindead state of healers right now. So those voices will affirm their assertion that their decisions are good ones. I really wish the devs would/could level a healer from 1-90 through the MSQ to get a good idea on what they've done to healers... but... I doubt that will ever happen... and that's why I'm no longer maining a healer.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

You are confusing "not engaging/simple" with "not fun". For instance, WAR is very, very simples, and not all that engaging when compared to DRK and GNB right? However it's still FUN. At no point at all, did I say WHM had to be unfun or awful. You misconstrued what I am saying and fabricate what you want to hear. All I said was WHM will forever be designed to be simple. You won't win that fight as it's core to it's identity even historically throughout Final Fantasy titles. The dream in general on a design basis is to have jobs whose PLAYSTYLE appeals to a fraction of the playerbase. Some people enjoy the simpler, slower paced jobs compared to the higher paced, more engaging jobs. It is a terrible design choice to make every job as engaging as every other job, and better to have some resemblance of identity and playstyle that differentiates itself from another job. I'll say it again cause you miss it a lot, WHM needs work, WHM has room to improve, but it won't ever become more than what it was always designed to be. It doesn't matter if it's your favorite or not. I like AST or MCH the most aesthetically, but because I never enjoyed it's playstyle, I don't play it.

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I argue against WHM's "yay crayola" job design for a bunch of reasons, engagement chief among them, but it's not the only consideration I have there. I'm sure we both know that HURRR 1111111111111 is wretched, horrible game design. And I won't stop complaining until it gets a LOT less babymode than that.

The other chief reason I argue against it is role balance. Healer role meta, barring a single minor patch or two, has pretty much been "lol not WHM" for years and years and years. And this isn't an accident. The reason it's "lol not WHM" is because WHM is the worst at everything. If not that, it's at least a strong contender in the categories it doesn't get an F in. The DPS role has this idea the right way around: you get utility, or you get personal output. Tinker upward and downward as you please. In many ways, that utility makes up for personal output- in most patches, you don't feel like you're actively gimping your party when you play a RDM, because the extra stuff you can do on the side like the occasional pull-squeaking Vercure, or spamming Verraise, or your party buff is useful enough that you don't feel like a crappy Roseart drawing of a BLM.

The healer role says screw that; WHM gets no utility, garbage damage output compared to its peers, and nothing engaging to manage in its downtime. It's a shell of a job. It has nothing going for it. SOMETHING has to give here. Why the hell have the job exist at all if it's just "worse fill in the blank" at everything? It excels at nothing. It's even been a worse healer than Astro for years, and raw HPS output is a garbage fake "advantage" that it's been touted to have for a long time.

WHM needs to be nuked from orbit. Being "the crappy one" isn't an identity. Its oversimplicity is one of the many contributing factors to this. I'm tired of enjoying the aesthetic of WHM only to be told by the dev team that LOL 11111111111111 is an "identity". Because if the healer role ever gets out of this rut it's in, the Cassandra in me sees the other three healers getting deluxe makeovers, and WHM remains boring and stupid because "it's supposed to be" or "because people like SiMpL". And I'd rather it not happen that way.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

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Every role has a "crayola" job, healers don't get a free pass. Most non buff/non top DPS jobs usually fall out of meta in competent, well orchestrated groups, again, no role is getting a free pass. Plus, unless you are going for the top colors or even if you are, meta doesn't mean jack to 99% of players. WHM held it's meta for a lot longer than most of you get credit for in ShB. Go check the top speedkills, they are still there for a decent amount compared to other jobs in other roles with no/less utility/damage. WHM is great for prog as it's straightforward and simple kit allows you to focus more on mechanics than pre-timing heals and their high aDPS akin to SGE is better when your group isn't as sync'd trying to learn a fight. Many World First groups of this savage tier had a WHM. Plus it's the only healer with Bene, making it psuedo mandatory for groups with a DRK.

WHM's simplistic, easy to grasp, kit has it's place in the healer role. Just as simpler tanks and simpler DPS also have their place. This DOES NOT mean the job HAS to be bad, nor does it mean you have to agree with the direction the dev team is taking with your job or role. I am fully aware and in agreement that the healers need adjusting starting with WHM then AST then SCH then SGE. Some people do enjoy the direction since ShB and some don't, and that's fine, that's their opinion. However, when the majority of people here are midcore healers at best(lot's of blues and greens from people complain about an ez pz role), echo chambering "111111111" without providing legitimate suggestions other than "more dps" not backed by any sort of proof as to why those changes would be beneficial to ALL players, from starting out casuals to hardcore veterans, all this just falls on deaf ears. This thread was in a good, productive, "here is what should change and why it should change and why it's healthy for all players" like a few pages ago, what happened?

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Originally Posted by Ixon

Every role has a "crayola" job, healers don't get a free pass.

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"The problem is widespread. Surely, despite frequent suggestions as to how to mitigate it, this is proof that the problem cannot be addressed, and thus we should stop talking about it."

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Most non buff/non top DPS jobs usually fall out of meta in competent, well orchestrated groups, again, no role is getting a free pass.

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Yet this has no bearing even on world first groups, who plenty often just take whatever the hell they enjoy, and the percentage difference between a top-3 performer and a given job has always been far more relevant than the lower job's rank. A 2% difference, for instance, falls within the deviation frequently seen by the same player in the same fight and in nearly the same party, regardless of whether that 'mere' 98% of the top job's theoretical performance would make the given job the "worst" in the game.

I'll agree that "echo chambering '11111111' without legitimate suggestions" or the like isn't great, but this kind of blasé dismissal is notably worse.

A problem being widespread doesn't make it any less a problem; it merely shifts the tenor of how we ought to address it. That there will always be a last place, similarly, doesn't excuse large performance gaps.

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Finally, I'll agree that some jobs ought to have a lower barrier to moderate competency (say, being able to solo-heal most Extremes, but not necessarily with great optimization) than others, but that doesn't mean the true ceiling of the job need also be any lower. (That said, I also feel that the relative simplicity of WHM is often overstated, especially given its current underperformance under typical conditions.)

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Originally Posted by Ixon

WHM's simplistic, easy to grasp, kit has it's place in the healer role. Just as simpler tanks and simpler DPS also have their place. This DOES NOT mean the job HAS to be bad, nor does it mean you have to agree with the direction the dev team is taking with your job or role. I am fully aware and in agreement that the healers need adjusting starting with WHM then AST then SCH then SGE. Some people do enjoy the direction since ShB and some don't, and that's fine, that's their opinion. However, when the majority of people here are midcore healers at best(lot's of blues and greens from people complain about an ez pz role), echo chambering "111111111" without providing legitimate suggestions other than "more dps" not backed by any sort of proof as to why those changes would be beneficial to ALL players, from starting out casuals to hardcore veterans, all this just falls on deaf ears. This thread was in a good, productive, "here is what should change and why it should change and why it's healthy for all players" like a few pages ago, what happened?

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Healers have been giving suggestions for years. Pages upon pages of it. All ignored and dismissed. They listened.... a little in the 3.X series, but after 4.0 it was pretty much brushed off and the role has been going downhill since. It's been a cycle. Healers start commenting and giving suggestions on job action trailer... white knights say "wait till media tour" ... same feedback because all the predictions turned out to be warrented... "wait till launch" still no changes and it's just as people thought it would be... "wait till X.1 patch" still nothing.... "well, wait till next expansion"... repeat... repeat... repeat...

The feedback tends to be 11111 because adding a damage spell or something seems to be the only real thing SE might actually do because they have dismissed just about everything else especially for WHM... for... reasons... *shrug* WHM mains have asked for utility since AST was introduced and we've been basically told "not happening." So... yeah...

Edit... funny thing is... techincally WHM has always been made fun of for this... Everyone used to joke that "WHM out there throwin' their rocks at the mobs lul" since all our main dps spell was Stone... then they're like "Oh, we'll make sure you're not throwing rocks anymore!" when ShB came out... only... they just changed it from rocks to light balls... -__-;

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Edit... funny thing is... techincally WHM has always been made fun of for this... Everyone used to joke that "WHM out there throwin' their rocks at the mobs lul" since all our main dps spell was Stone... then they're like "Oh, we'll make sure you're not throwing rocks anymore!" when ShB came out... only... they just changed it from rocks to light balls... -__-;

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Haha I was so mad about that. I liked being the nature cleric in this game, and somehow the complaint about rocks was interpreted as aesthetic rather than mechanical.

I personally suggest for anyone wanting to have some good old heal fun to revisit some old content on minimum item level no echo. For example Shinryu. - there is a mechanic where you needed to heal the dragon heads that were linked to your teammates. Felt pretty cool mechanic to me. Would be great if they implemented something like that in majority of the content. That felt pretty creative to me.

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Originally Posted by Shuuli

I personally suggest for anyone wanting to have some good old heal fun to revisit some old content on minimum item level no echo. For example Shinryu. - there is a mechanic where you needed to heal the dragon heads that were linked to your teammates. Felt pretty cool mechanic to me. Would be great if they implemented something like that in majority of the content. That felt pretty creative to me.

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Or I could play BLU and have fun while healing.

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Originally Posted by Shuuli

I personally suggest for anyone wanting to have some good old heal fun to revisit some old content on minimum item level no echo. For example Shinryu. - there is a mechanic where you needed to heal the dragon heads that were linked to your teammates. Felt pretty cool mechanic to me. Would be great if they implemented something like that in majority of the content. That felt pretty creative to me.

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I can also have a whole party that strips down to an ilvl where we barely survive a regular aoe, put a cat or two on my keyboard for additional difficulty, flip the monitor upside down for even more difficulty...

Or they could design healers in a way that we don't need to bend over backwards to enjoy outlier content, let alone content we all do on a fairly regular basis like dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Shuuli

I personally suggest for anyone wanting to have some good old heal fun to revisit some old content on minimum item level no echo. For example Shinryu. - there is a mechanic where you needed to heal the dragon heads that were linked to your teammates. Felt pretty cool mechanic to me. Would be great if they implemented something like that in majority of the content. That felt pretty creative to me.

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I felt the opposite in Shinryu. It felt like a cheap way of forcing healers into GCD healing without really making it meaningful. It wasn’t hard or challenging—it was just there. If you got into a PF with two WHMs, it was even more trivial, since Benedicition was dedicated to one dragon head automatically.

I don’t know how much of minimum item level old content is healing requirements going up, and people just not understanding the mechanics and taking more damage than they should as a result. Running Dun Scaith during the current Moogle event heavily leans towards the latter: nothing particularly hits harder (outside of a handful of raidwides, like during Proto-Ultima and Diabolos Hollow), but people take a lot more damage due to standing in the bad and just not being familiar with the content itself.


That said, both of these are still issues with healer design: why do we have to do minimum item level content OR be paired with a party of clowns to feel “engaged”? Why can it not be engaging in current content? Why do we have to purposely gimp ourselves or jump through hoops for it?

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Originally Posted by Shuuli

I personally suggest for anyone wanting to have some good old heal fun to revisit some old content on minimum item level no echo. For example Shinryu. - there is a mechanic where you needed to heal the dragon heads that were linked to your teammates. Felt pretty cool mechanic to me. Would be great if they implemented something like that in majority of the content. That felt pretty creative to me.

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Does this not all but scream how poorly designed healers are that in order to feel engaging—at least, theatrically—they have to do several year old content at minimum ilvl instead of the brand new content? Not to mention, like HyoMin said, I also didn't find this mechanic engaging nor creative. It arbitrarily forced GCD healing and overhealing, two aspects of healer gameplay you don't want to do. It's similar to their obsession with "heal to full" mechanics throughout Stormblood ala White Hole and Heartless Angel. Neither challenged a healer so much as it forced them to waste their abilities because someone only reached 97% of their HP, which isn't enough.

There were several ghosts in DR savage to have to heal from zero HP, much more than Shrinyu. Although the phase was skippable with good DPS. It was a cool idea since you'd have likely 10 healers to handle them so lustrates or EDs here and there they'd be done. Although I felt like aside from bleeds requiring tank aethershields, the healers were mainly managing damage buffs and doing raid mechanics over pure healing most of the time. An opportunity could have been made to up the ante on healing aside from queen enrage.

Being i600 now as a healer trivializes all the savage heal mechanics. Some things still hit hard, but you just hit single buttons to react instead of GCDs. Even P4S final phase enrage is just another lazy attempt to punish healers for enrage mechanics, which is getting rather old. It's a rat race and it's just sucks every other tier, heal again and again for enrage and hope boss dies. There is hope that the next ultimate will bring some of that healing phase 1 isn't easy in TEA things. Mr. Ozma is doing it and also designed some of the best fights in this game like Cruise Chaser.

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Originally Posted by Shuuli

I personally suggest for anyone wanting to have some good old heal fun to revisit some old content on minimum item level no echo. For example Shinryu. - there is a mechanic where you needed to heal the dragon heads that were linked to your teammates. Felt pretty cool mechanic to me. Would be great if they implemented something like that in majority of the content. That felt pretty creative to me.

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So why is it okay to force healers to have to run minimum ILVL or otherwise gimp themselves in order to actually use most of their kit, when tanks and DPS get to use most of their kits even in casual content AND EVEN DURING STORY INSTANCES. I shouldn't have to go out of my way to handicap myself in order to "have fun".

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Originally Posted by Laphicet

So why is it okay to force healers to have to run minimum ILVL or otherwise gimp themselves in order to actually use most of their kit, when tanks and DPS get to use most of their kits even in casual content AND EVEN DURING STORY INSTANCES. I shouldn't have to go out of my way to handicap myself in order to "have fun".

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Their scaling from minimum ilevel to even just tome-level is almost too high for any content in the game.

I get why YoshiP said ultimate because it's only tweaked to one ilevel, having BiS or max available ilevel at the time.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Unfortunately, there are people who like the dumbed down, braindead state of healers right now. So those voices will affirm their assertion that their decisions are good ones.

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It's frustrating because those people only like the current state of healers because it's easy. Low effort and same reward. They don't like it because it's well designed, engaging, interesting or because they want to master it. They are the type of players who want to put in the bare minimum.

It's also worrying because somewhere down the line the devs might easily apply this to dps and tanks. SMN was very likely the first step towards that to test the waters. The result of it was SMN popularity spiked. There is literally no reason for a development team that favors accessibility over fun not to apply this to more jobs down the line, given how successful it looks on paper.

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Originally Posted by Shuuli

I personally suggest for anyone wanting to have some good old heal fun to revisit some old content on minimum item level no echo. For example Shinryu. - there is a mechanic where you needed to heal the dragon heads that were linked to your teammates. Felt pretty cool mechanic to me. Would be great if they implemented something like that in majority of the content. That felt pretty creative to me.

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Miv ilv no echo does not increase the frequency of raid damage. Who cares if raidwides hit slightly harder when you have 30-60 sec downtime to handle it.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

It's also worrying because somewhere down the line the devs might easily apply this to dps and tanks...

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Well actually tanks has suffered the same fate Healers did, just less noticeable due tanks having more DPS skills, just look at DRK a tank who use to have an engaging gameplay downgraded to be just a mere spam all your stuff on burst and spend 45s of you 60s gameplay loop doing nothing but 1 2 3 soul eater combo.

Combats don't help either when there is little tank busters to dealt with making mitigation management almost inexistent, it's a same that Yoship don't believe that tanks and healer should have more engaging experience and instead they should be complete oversimplified so non-Tank/Healer mains can pick them up casually anytime at the cost of not allowing the players who want to invest on the roles had fun with a rewarding gameplay experience like if you was a DPS main.

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Originally Posted by shao32

Well actually tanks has suffered the same fate Healers did, just less noticeable due tanks having more DPS skills, just look at DRK a tank who use to have an engaging gameplay downgraded to be just a mere spam all your stuff on burst and spend 45s of you 60s gameplay loop doing nothing but 1 2 3 soul eater combo.

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Tanks don't have it nearly as bad as healers. At least not right now. At least there's stuff to do on a tank and there's an actual rotation with a gauge that actually allows you to do more stuff whether you really *need* to or not. For healers especially as ilvl goes up and content gets older, healer gameplay suffers because most of our stuff heals... and no one really needs much healing as those factors kick in.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Tanks don't have it nearly as bad as healers. At least not right now. At least there's stuff to do on a tank and there's an actual rotation with a gauge that actually allows you to do more stuff whether you really *need* to or not. For healers especially as ilvl goes up and content gets older, healer gameplay suffers because most of our stuff heals... and no one really needs much healing as those factors kick in.

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I didn't say they are as bad as Healers just they had suffered the same treatment from the dev team, Healers are actually bad yeah but we have tanks like DRK wich is almost at the same level of oversimplicity of the healers, like really Darkside gauge is totally useless.

Both roles are in the same boat wich seems like they are being made for ppl who don't wanna play the roles instead for those who want to and yes sadly Healers are in the bottom of that boat.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

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Which healers shlump down into dead last place in role balance with regularity? Oh it's just WHM? Gosh, maybe it has something to do with a design direction that says you're artificially stonewalled against doing more than one thing at a time, and you can't even be a standout at that one thing. Yeah I know you think it needs improvement. I think this trashfire of design doesn't stand up to its peers in most scenarios by definition, and the last place throne has a WHM butt indentation for fundamental design reasons that aren't an accident. BLM is the "simple" mage. It doesn't do much outside damage. It has a history of being uncomplicated, straightforward. And yet somehow playing it is engaging, mastery is tricky, it doesn't spend all its time mashing 111111111, and it sees the meta crown quite a bit. Because Yoshi mains it.

I'm down to lazily repeating "111111111" because my days of writing essays on why healing lilies were an awful idea are much less frequent than they used to be. I don't *have* improvement suggestions anymore. They've been nerfing my favorite job aesthetic into lobotomy and stupidity without cease for almost seven years now. Ever since they buffed the sense out of AST (while WHM ran out of MP doing its basic rota...oh how history repeats) back in 3.4 it's been a swirl around the toilet bowl. The Stormblood WHM design was objectively terrible, and they didn't care until the complaints reached an expansion drop. I tried a solo duty in Shadowbringers as WHM, and Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare made me want to gouge my eyes out.

I boil most of my complaints down to "111111111" because it's straightforward. Everyone with two neurons to rub together knows what it's aiming at. And the only rebuttal I get is that it's "lazy" or "unconstructive". Good? I'm utterly uninterested in debating the finer gameplay intricacies of smashing Glare hundreds of times during an instance like a cavebeast. Why offer some small tweak they could apply to make it play acceptably? It doesn't matter if I put an hour of work in or ten. Yoshi will blow a raspberry at anything if it gets mentioned at all. "Nope, anything more than Glare spamming is too scary" has been the firm message for a long time. So screw it, I'll spend as much effort carefully criticizing WHM's design as Square spends designing it: zero. Strap a dev to a chair and make them play through the MSQ as a healer. It's bad design. I'm equally uninterested in the devil's advocacy that you *technically* press Tetra once a minute so it's not all 1111111111. Just as I'm uninterested in your boring deflection about blue parses. Don't pretend like even most grey parses don't press Glare an embarrassing number of times in a given instance.

I still see "fix healers....but also not that much, and also what do you expect?"

Entertaining. Gameplay. What a wild concept, I must be a maniac.

I think overall, the most glaring thing, is that we were explicitly told in Stormblood that we didn't get a new Healer because the FFXIV Devs needed to "work on healers and get them in a better place" (paraphrasing). This was repeated for Shadowbringers.

What was the result of all that work? Extremely simplified and homogenized gameplay across the entire Healer role to the point of pressing the exact same two buttons from Lvl 4 to Lvl 90, 75% of the time or more.

Is this really the best they could offer or come up with?

Is the creativity well that empty for Healers?

My logs have historically been bad at the best of times and my p4s part 1 logs are particularly bad.

A big fat 0 percentile on AST on one of my runs still had me pressing that 1 key 99 times.

Compelling gameplay right there

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Entertaining. Gameplay. What a wild concept, I must be a maniac.

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Thing is, with WHM the needed changes are kind of painfully obvious compared to the other healers.

Just bring back Stone and Aero spells alongside Glare and Dia, maybe add a water spell. No gimmicks, just let the purest healer also be the purest DPS with two DoTs and two or three straight-up damage bombs. If BLM gets to have weird arcane stuff like Scathe, Foul, and Xeno on top of Fire/Ice/Lightning, I don't see why WHM shouldn't be allowed to have Earth/Wind/Water spells on top of holy spells.