Please Reconsider MSQ Changes

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Additionally the MSQ roulette should count for the newest tank mount achievements. This could speed up the queue times a bit.

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Only if it'll give you two ticks for the achiev because you can easily run 2 other instances that count for the same amount of time spent in there. Maybe more depending on content and how capable your party is. For instance, you could probably run 3, maybe even 4 Susano or Lakshmi ex runs for the same amount of time.

The XP increase would have to be double of what it is now for me to go back in there. Also more gil would be required as well for me to go back.

The MSQ roulette is just nothing but spamming button to get through cutscene after cutscene when they should have just made it 2 solo instances.

I dont think more experience points will be enough, in the end everyone will reach max level with their class. A better solution would be to add the newest tomestones and both gathering and crafting scrips. If SE finds this to much, then add a new currency that players can trade in for minions, mounts, glamour, newest tomes, gathering and crafting scrips.

This way there will always be an incentive to do this roulette. I only have Ninja left as battle class, the moment she reaches level 70, I will stop doing the MSQ. To lure players like myself, SE needs to add stuff that we want.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I'd say it's pretty sad that someone was disappointed and trepidatious that they had to watch a story in this story driven game.

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I find pretty sad someone is being insulting over someone's personality. I got a news flash for you. Some people play the game to only play the game. There is no warning before buying the game "the game forces a story down your throat and may not be for you" You want to have the biggest sales you try not to exclude a group, and the people that play games to play them is much bigger then people carrying about a story. Even JaakRoot said "btw, I find it quite stupid design to have MSQ block your progression" I find it odd you try act others act rude and insulting when the only person that fits that is you. Again that sig statement of yours fits you well, I am sure you are told kettle black often.

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Originally Posted by JaakRoot

I personally hate going through another medium to watch back the story. It can become messy and it doesn't feel right as you kinda already did it and lose the first time experience. I was happy with the cutscene directly from while playing the game but what I also hated was that the bosses were down in a matter of seconds without even having time to go through some sort of final forms like in every FF game final bosses. Probably because the 2 vets had 70 lvl gear and the sync gear function is not strong enough ... I mean the vets tank has like 10 K HP and I barely got 5 K with the gear from the job quest which is lvl 50.

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Yeah you did not get what I was asking. There is 2 different ways to approach and clear these 2 dungeons and 3 methods to view the CS. You said you where glad for the change, the change took out a diolog option that is no longer view able in the inn, making a premade party to undersize/unsyc, and the main roulette. The reason I bought the idea of selfish is, from you basically saying you like the change in full. I have issues with this, esp if your friend is lv 60+, or know someone that is 70, you 3 or 2 can make a party and complete it that way. This is called undersize and being a small group you can easily go at your own pace. Given you have this option, why should the public channel be forced to please a select few when this option exists? I was not really asking if you like going though another medium or not, I was asking how you feel with them just making this blanket change across everything, since again you said you completely agree with the change in full.

With this change, even those that want to skip CS, like Anarnee bought up just now, along with posters of the past in this thread, even if they make a premade party to unsync it (non-public group) the game still forces them to watch the CS. To me you still do not understand the undersize function and I believe a first step could make that option more clear to the new player base not this forcing this change on everyone. The reason I say this is because I seen a few runs where a new person and someone that is able to run the new person though it undersize was attempting to hold the group hostage and not click though the dialogue, we had to kick them. (The high level friend was on a healer and was attempting the "I will not heal you guys till we watch the CS)

For the vote thing, please stop pressing for that, it won't work. People will just start drama about trolling or something and/or simply leave if they have to watch CS. The BEST way of dealing with this while maintaining that idea in spirit is making 2 roulettes, with different rewards, one with CS and one without. That is the only way you do not exclude people.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

The reason I bought the idea of selfish is, from you basically saying you like the change in full. I have issues with this, esp if your friend is lv 60+, or know someone that is 70, you 3 or 2 can make a party and complete it that way. This is called undersize and being a small group you can easily go at your own pace. Given you have this option, why should the public channel be forced to please a select few when this option exists?

To me you still do not understand the undersize function and I believe a first step could make that option more clear to the new player base not this forcing this change on everyone.

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MSQ roulette was designed to move sprouts through content. The MSQ specifically tells players that "such and such dungeon/trial is now available through Duty Finder". You keep implying that the sprouts are the selfish ones for running this through DF when PF is available, but this is how the game is set up.

If 'selfish' reasons are taken out, the only concern that any of us should have about this change is whether or not this will increase the queue times significantly, and therefore not let new players make it through the MSQ easily.

Yes, mandatory CSs need to be disabled in PF so that those who do not want to deal with the story can skip it. I think most everyone is at least in agreement about this part.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

MSQ roulette was designed to move sprouts through content. The MSQ specifically tells players that "such and such dungeon/trial is now available through Duty Finder". You keep implying that the sprouts are the selfish ones for running this through DF when PF is available, but this is how the game is set up.

If 'selfish' reasons are taken out, the only concern that any of us should have about this change is whether or not this will increase the queue times significantly, and therefore not let new players make it through the MSQ easily.

Yes, mandatory CSs need to be disabled in PF so that those who do not want to deal with the story can skip it. I think most everyone is at least in agreement about this part.

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might need touch up the post, but not just that but the inn too, and put back that dialogue option, I am shocked more story goes are not bringing the torches on that. I still think it should not be exclude those that want to use it to level up jobs, like having 2 different roulette or something but whatever i guess.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

might need touch up the post, but not just that but the inn too, and put back that dialogue option, I am shocked more story goes are not bringing the torches on that. I still think it should not be exclude those that want to use it to level up jobs, like having 2 different roulette or something but whatever i guess.

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By the dialogue..do you mean the auto-advancement? If so, I'd say that's a necessary evil, otherwise groups could be held hostage. If not what you mean, not sure then as I've always skipped all MSQ :X

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

By the dialogue..do you mean the auto-advancement? If so, I'd say that's a necessary evil, otherwise groups could be held hostage. If not what you mean, not sure then as I've always skipped all MSQ :X

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There is a dialogue pop up, they can still give you 5 seconds to pick or something, if not it picks something for you. They took it out of the game completely, and do not even get it in the inn, complete BS they make a blanket change like this. So it was clearly not well thought out and made in haste blanketing PF/undersize and the inn.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

There is a dialogue pop up, they can still give you 5 seconds to pick or something, if not it picks something for you. They took it out of the game completely, and do not even get it in the inn, complete BS they make a blanket change like this. So it was clearly not well thought out and made in haste blanketing PF/undersize and the inn.

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Ahh, I imagine at most this probably just changes a line or two of dialogue.. I know when I pick the "wrong" choice in quests, they normally spout off real fast about why I'm wrong, then prompts me to try again. These prompts could definitely be used to troll the other players in the Roulette, so I can see why they'd take them out.

With that said, a short timer on any prompts could have been a decent solution. However, for my own needs, I appreciate having to input absolutely nothing while I'm tabbed out waiting for the CS to pass :p

I'm avoiding Main Scenario queues now simply because of this change. 5-10 mins of actual fighting with new players still unable to keep up to fight the bosses, 1 hour of cutscenes. I don't care about the increased reward, this is total garbage and solves nothing! I don't even want to do them on my lower level characters that could benefit from the xp.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Ahh, I imagine at most this probably just changes a line or two of dialogue.. I know when I pick the "wrong" choice in quests, they normally spout off real fast about why I'm wrong, then prompts me to try again. These prompts could definitely be used to troll the other players in the Roulette, so I can see why they'd take them out.

With that said, a short timer on any prompts could have been a decent solution. However, for my own needs, I appreciate having to input absolutely nothing while I'm tabbed out waiting for the CS to pass :p

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still would not effect you cuz it would auto in 5 sec anyway (or could have) the biggest complaint i have in regards to it, is that it is removed for the inn as well. I mean.. *throws arms it* it really shows they did not think things though. Also the comment about being alt tabbed.. meaning you are not playing the game.. isn't that a clue how bad this change is?

I'm also sad to see that the dialogue option got removed. For a new player its absence doesn't outweigh the gain of being able to watch the cutscenes, and he did launch into the exact same speech regardless of what you picked, but it's still a loss.

It does seem that their system may only be able to handle an all-or-nothing approach to cutscene playback - judging from the inn cutscenes having the same auto-scroll. There may be no way that they can implement giving players the option to skip or not skip at an instance-by-instance level, even if they wanted to.

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Originally Posted by geekgirl101

I'm avoiding Main Scenario queues now simply because of this change. 5-10 mins of actual fighting with new players still unable to keep up to fight the bosses [...]

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But.... new players don't have to keep up? That's the point of this change, they're going to be there and participating in the battles. They might not be doing the same degree of damage as veterans with better equipment, but they're in the fight from start to finish instead of still being in the cutscene, or running through empty corridors trying to find everyone.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

still would not effect you cuz it would auto in 5 sec anyway (or could have) the biggest complaint i have in regards to it, is that it is removed for the inn as well. I mean.. *throws arms it* it really shows they did not think things though. Also the comment about being alt tabbed.. meaning you are not playing the game.. isn't that a clue how bad this change is?

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Yeah, it's speaks wonders for the gameplay that I tab out while running MSQ roulette. But then again, you always hear people commenting how they just watch netflix while crafting / gathering / even dungeoning at times, so not all content. For better or worse, there is a lot of content that people just tab out for. MSQ is just the latest addition to that list. :X

In a perfect world, SE would have made this a solo instance. Maybe in another 4 years they'll figure out a way to make that happen -.-;

Hate it. The option to skip before was better. I'll take the devil I know and would rather have the option to experience all content with a faster queue pop, rather than feeling gated and waiting over 40+ minutes to play a crucial part of the story. Someone said it before, but the "bad ass" moment you had when you completed this old raid was more prominent when this game launched - people's item level nowadays murders all the mobs so quickly the "epicness" is lost because you don't even finish dropping your dots. I look forward to the fix incoming :rolleyes:

Just went in Main scenario without realizing this change... had time to browse internet, get drinks and make food. Unless they increase the amount of exp you get in there I don't think I will be doing that roulette xD

Ultimately, the core of the issue that bothers me most if the choice of the matter. There are a lot of people who are interested in watching the cutscenes, but there are just as many who are indifferent or simply just want to get past it. Whereas before you had the option to ask for people to run with you to watch the cs or simply speed run it by queuing normally, currently there is no way to skip past it (without buying a story skip potion). Regardless if the people in it want to watch or if everyone has already cleared, you are forced to endure the cutscenes at a set speed, which, after the 3rd+ time starts to get pretty old for most people. And I think that being able to make that choice is what it really boils down to in the end.

I hope SE will serious consider revising this change to be something that is more appealing to all players.

Did a Prae run today, it didn't seem too bad beyond one person afking/going offline who eventually got kicked. It was actually amusing talking to some other vet players who didn't remember all the details about what happened. It is sad that the dialouge choices were removed though.

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Originally Posted by Louvain

Ultimately, the core of the issue that bothers me most if the choice of the matter. There are a lot of people who are interested in watching the cutscenes,but there are just as many who are indifferent or simply just want to get past it. Whereas before you had the option to ask for people to run with you to watch the cs or simply speed run it by queuing normally, currently there is no way to skip past it (without buying a story skip potion). Regardless if the people in it want to watch or if everyone has already cleared, you are forced to endure the cutscenes at a set speed, which, after the 3rd+ time starts to get pretty old for most people. And I think that being able to make that choice is what it really boils down to in the end.

I hope SE will serious consider revising this change to be something that is more appealing to all players.

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I support your point, and yes, the lack of choice is the core argument, but the majority of people in this thread are saying "It isn't worth it". Only once it was discovered it affected all instances, even rewatching just the cutscenes, did the outcry change. And there are still people talking of making it "worth the run". Reverting it would make these people happy, but would result in them continuing to rush through the DF queued instances and dragging sprouts along with them in a mishmash of unintelligibly stitched together cutscenes with no context. I agree it should be changed, but currently it benefits the people that particular roulette was created for the most and affects the people interested in xp/tomes per minute the least. They need a fix, but reverting back to the old way seems to me to be the worse impact.

I'd rather it just be forced at minimum ilvl, and boss HP be increased. Even my very first time in there on the day after release, we burned through most fights too quickly to see all phases. It was only after running a friend through it, as a duo, on PLD, that I got to see everything.

And, revise the cutscenes. If it can be covered during the fight, do so. It it's fluff text, cut it. If the reluctant pause is longer than necessary to mark such a pause, quicken it. Hasten transitions.

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Originally Posted by Louvain

Ultimately, the core of the issue that bothers me most if the choice of the matter. There are a lot of people who are interested in watching the cutscenes, but there are just as many who are indifferent or simply just want to get past it. Whereas before you had the option to ask for people to run with you to watch the cs or simply speed run it by queuing normally, currently there is no way to skip past it (without buying a story skip potion). Regardless if the people in it want to watch or if everyone has already cleared, you are forced to endure the cutscenes at a set speed, which, after the 3rd+ time starts to get pretty old for most people. And I think that being able to make that choice is what it really boils down to in the end.

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The whole problem with this type of argument is that it treats sprouts as if they're four year veterans. Sprouts don't know how to use PF and many of them don't know enough people in game to field a party big enough to do this while watching the cutscenes. The game trains them to use DF. So they do.

Saying that it's a "choice" is misleading at best. It's a choice for veterans. It's not a choice for people who don't know any better and do what the game has taught them to do.

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I hope SE will serious consider revising this change to be something that is more appealing to all players.

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Why? SE ultimately doesn't have any reason to care if people can't speedrun this for levelling other jobs. There are lots of other roulettes and methods of doing that. The purpose of this one is to get sprouts through the MSQ. So long as it accomplishes that, there's no reason for them to change anything.

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Why? SE ultimately doesn't have any reason to care if people can't speedrun this for levelling other jobs. There are lots of other roulettes and methods of doing that. The purpose of this one is to get sprouts through the MSQ. So long as it accomplishes that, there's no reason for them to change anything.

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If people can't have a satisfactory experience playing the MSQ roulette, guess what happens? People will stop queueing that roulette.

Care to explain how the sprouts will DF those MSQ roulette dungeons once no one bothers doing the roulette anymore?

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

If people can't have a satisfactory experience playing the MSQ roulette, guess what happens? People will stop queueing that roulette.

Care to explain how the sprouts will DF those MSQ roulette dungeons once no one bothers doing the roulette anymore?

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Some people will keep doing the MSQ roulette even with forced cutscenes. Fewer than before to be certain, but it won't be the case that "no one bothers" running it.

If enough people will keep doing the MSQ roulette that new people can run Castrum/Praetorium without excessive queue times - THAT is the interesting question, and one we don't know the answer to quite yet.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I agree it should be changed, but currently it benefits the people that particular roulette was created for the most and affects the people interested in xp/tomes per minute the least.

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Not every new player wants to see the cutscenes in Castrum. Or was the roulette all this time intended to be cutscene roulette and not, "Get this player through story" roulette?

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Not every new player wants to see the cutscenes in Castrum. Or was the roulette all this time intended to be cutscene roulette and not, "Get this player through story" roulette?

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No not every player does, but the ones who did had no obvious option to get that done. They were instructed by the game to "use duty finder" only to end up in a party uninterested in their experience and only in the xp/tomes they could get. The roulette was created for those who needed to get past those MSQ dungeons. Everyone in this thread is talking of "forced to watch cutscenes" like it's some sort of torture. In the hours necessary to complete this game it's minor and comparing the two kinds of people , newbies who don't care about the story and would rather rush through and newbies who want to enjoy the story, who had more options in the past? The INTENT was to get new players party members if they couldn't locate their own. The refined intent, as has been demonstrated by their new rule, is to allow newbies to enjoy the story AND find party members who are OK with that. People who don't care can still clear it to continue but with a minor inconvenience. As has been said several times in this thread though, I am in support of removing the restriction from PF and Solo instances, but if that cannot be separated I still believe the greater good is allowing people to experience a very crucial part of the first story arc in full without having to negotiate it.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Everyone in this thread is talking of "forced to watch cutscenes" like it's some sort of torture. In the hours necessary to complete this game it's minor

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Do me a favor please. Go pick an episode from a show you like, okay? Any show is fine. Now watch that selected episode over and over. Tell me you never get sick of seeing the exact same scene over and over again.

That's what happens when you force cutscenes. You're making us rewatch an episode over and over every time we queue up. That'll drive people insane.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

The INTENT was to get new players party members if they couldn't locate their own. The refined intent, as has been demonstrated by their new rule, is to allow newbies to enjoy the story AND find party members who are OK with that.

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Let's use the perspective of a player that has no idea what is inside of Castrum and Praetorium. This player is used to dungeon related runs being 15-20 minutes since we just speedrun the leveling dungeons anyways. They noticed how short it takes to do dungeons so these shouldn't be different right? It takes them a while to get in because less people are queuing, but eventually, either from that roulette or mentor roulette, it fills. 45 minutes later... they're irritated it's taking so long. Why is it taking so long? Just the cutscenes?

I haven't exactly done it on an alt for story since the change, but does the game alert the dungeon will take longer than most? Whenever cutscenes take more than 5 minutes in story they seem to put a warning going, "HEY THIS TAKES A WHILE" before they let you see them. Castrum and Prae doesn't warn you though, not when you unlock, and if you don't have access to the roulette, the duty finder doesn't even tell you that you're forced into cutscenes. Check the actual dungeon descriptions, nowhere does it say forced cutscenes, so why do people outside of roulette gotta be hit?

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Do me a favor please. Go pick an episode from a show you like, okay? Any show is fine. Now watch that selected episode over and over. Tell me you never get sick of seeing the exact same scene over and over again.

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I tried to tell them that long ago, and several times. It was ignored every time. They are just a white knight troll and will not respond to logical criticism. I find it even more amusing they took out the sing quote that advertises how much of a troll they are. (or least i do not see it in that last post for some reason)

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

The INTENT was to get new players party members if they couldn't locate their own. The refined intent, as has been demonstrated by their new rule, is to allow newbies to enjoy the story AND find party members who are OK with that. People who don't care can still clear it to continue but with a minor inconvenience. As has been said several times in this thread though, I am in support of removing the restriction from PF and Solo instances, but if that cannot be separated I still believe the greater good is allowing people to experience a very crucial part of the first story arc in full without having to negotiate it.

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THEY do not tech people well on the pf. Have you ever tried to help someone running the level 50 extremes for the first time? Have you ever ran MSQ with people with the ability to run it themselves but wanted to hold the group hostage? There are more problems in this game then a few people being "rushed" to watch CS. SE does not address things that cases problems fo more players because it shows how out of touch hey are with the user base. What about menu hell for new players? I seen people have more problems with that, then a select minority whining about CS.

Or what about this:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Sensory-Issues
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I find it really insulting they do not address bigger issues and make a change that only helps such a small minority of players and not change things that really need changing. (And those problems, like this sound issue, impact people to much greater degree then people and CS, they always had the option to watch CS, these problems i am referring to are forced and there is no way around them.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Do me a favor please. Go pick an episode from a show you like, okay? Any show is fine. Now watch that selected episode over and over. Tell me you never get sick of seeing the exact same scene over and over again.That's what happens when you force cutscenes. You're making us rewatch an episode over and over every time we queue up. That'll drive people insane.

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They aren't making you do ANYTHING. Don't do them. That's my point. If you are the kind of person who can't stand it. DON'T DO IT. It's not required for you. You're not some sort of selfless martyr if you DO do them, but you're also not evil if you decide that roulette queue is not for you anymore. This is how we find out if there are enough of the kind of people who CAN deal with it to keep the roulette sustained.

On a side note, you've never babysat before have you?

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Let's use the perspective of a player that has no idea what is inside of Castrum and Praetorium. This player is used to dungeon related runs being 15-20 minutes since we just speedrun the leveling dungeons anyways. They noticed how short it takes to do dungeons so these shouldn't be different right? It takes them a while to get in because less people are queuing, but eventually, either from that roulette or mentor roulette, it fills. 45 minutes later... they're irritated it's taking so long. Why is it taking so long? Just the cutscenes?

I haven't exactly done it on an alt for story since the change, but does the game alert the dungeon will take longer than most? Whenever cutscenes take more than 5 minutes in story they seem to put a warning going, "HEY THIS TAKES A WHILE" before they let you see them. Castrum and Prae doesn't warn you though, not when you unlock, and if you don't have access to the roulette, the duty finder doesn't even tell you that you're forced into cutscenes. Check the actual dungeon descriptions, nowhere does it say forced cutscenes, so why do people outside of roulette gotta be hit?

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I've already mentioned I think people should have the choice when queuing them solo or PF, but it also doesn't warn you that "people may skip the cutscenes and leave you behind , but you can watch them later at the inn. However you will not have the context of the fights or ingame text to frame these.". You think this is a matter of warning? If they just added a text box with your proposed warning it'd be OK then? Or would people just click on it anyway and progress because you have to? Maybe a box that you click "nah" and it skips the entire dungeon and gives you no XP. Nobody has a choice whether they do it the first time or not, warning or not.

You're also using an example of a longer time that may or may not happen. The queues have gone up yes, but unless I'm horribly uninformed primetime has only gone up to about 20 minutes for a DPS and is still within 5 minutes for healer or tank.

Dear SE:

My suggestion to you guys is to make the MSQ dungeons as "solo-instances". That way new players can see the cutscenes, and fight the bosses with the msq characters to make the ending more enjoyable for them. Better yet, allow squadrons to be available to newbies in those dungeons to make the fights easier.

Second Suggestion: Just kill off MSQ roulette. No one wants to watch the same 2 episodes of MSQ over and over and over again. Unless people have a ***ish for re-runs of tv shows they won't do this roulette again.

Third Suggestion: Make the rewards worth doing the roulette for. Current rewards is meh and not worth wasting 45+ mins (plus the added wait time via queue especially for dps ppl) to finish this roulette.

/2 cents

I went into these instances with a friend a few weeks ago before the patch. I am sorry to say it was one of the most awful experiences.

I’ve been through them "a time or two". Original story and duty roulette. I personally skipped the cutscenes my first time through as I was well aware of the controversy. Totally ruined my experience! But I got through it.

My friend said there was no way he was going to have the same experience I had. He watched the cutscenes. When he came to, everyone was way ahead of him and he had no idea what to do. Total confusion!!! Total Chaos!!! I went back to find him and it just kept going downhill from there. Both instances. That is when I really saw just how bad it was for new players trying to experience the full game.

It was way worse than my first experience! HORRIBLE!

They're trying to appease two crowds - Those going through the MSQ, and those leveling. But there is content involved. You only need to see it once.

To appease both crowds, you need a distinction.

Those who want to skip the cutscenes and those who don't.

Those who don't skip the cutscenes should get bonus rewards as they do now. Perhaps a little sweetener would help. Those who skip, don't get any cutscenes except before and after the instance. These can be skipped too.

Duty finder should prompt each player and ask how they want to experience it. Then it should queue people based off of that distinction. Two separate queues for the same instance and different rewards for each.

This way, people wishing to experience the whole story can still do so, and people wishing to farm can still do so. New players can also decide if they want to skip the custscenes too. Just like I did. It all then comes down to the individual player and how they choose to experience the content.

There really should be an option since there is controversy.

Queue'd for it last night on my 61 warrior and had an instant pop. I had forgotten alot of the cutscenes as it had been a couple of years. Everything went smoothly with the group and I got over 1m experience for the roulette. I didnt keep track of the induty experience. As long as I have time I'll keep adding it to my roulette list of things to run.

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Originally Posted by Coratanni

Queue'd for it last night on my 61 warrior and had an instant pop. I had forgotten alot of the cutscenes as it had been a couple of years. Everything went smoothly with the group and I got over 1m experience for the roulette. I didnt keep track of the induty experience. As long as I have time I'll keep adding it to my roulette list of things to run.

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Have fun watching the same cutscenes over and over again. The exp gain just isn't worth going through that torture of being forced to see the same cutscenes everyday. You can get relatively the same if not more exp from doing alliance raid roulette.

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Originally Posted by Usho

Dear SE:

My suggestion to you guys is to make the MSQ dungeons as "solo-instances". That way new players can see the cutscenes, and fight the bosses with the msq characters to make the ending more enjoyable for them. Better yet, allow squadrons to be available to newbies in those dungeons to make the fights easier.

Second Suggestion: Just kill off MSQ roulette. No one wants to watch the same 2 episodes of MSQ over and over and over again. Unless people have a ***ish for re-runs of tv shows they won't do this roulette again.

Third Suggestion: Make the rewards worth doing the roulette for. Current rewards is meh and not worth wasting 45+ mins (plus the added wait time via queue especially for dps ppl) to finish this roulette.

/2 cents

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Or you could just not do them if they're so offensive to you.

I tried to keep up running it for new folks but I only lasted a few days before I couldn't sit through the same cut scenes and waste 45+ min of my time day after day. It should be far more lucrative than it is currently for non-first timers. Many veteran players would love to help out but it's just so much loss for so little gain on the daily.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

They aren't making you do ANYTHING. Don't do them. That's my point. If you are the kind of person who can't stand it. DON'T DO IT. It's not required for you. You're not some sort of selfless martyr if you DO do them, but you're also not evil if you decide that roulette queue is not for you anymore. This is how we find out if there are enough of the kind of people who CAN deal with it to keep the roulette sustained.

On a side note, you've never babysat before have you?

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Designing a roulette in a way that makes people not want to do it is already able to be seen as terrible design. Yes, I can't just not do it. Yes I understand I'm not held at gunpoint to do MS roulette. I'm not saying people are forced to queue, I'm saying it's bad to force people to watch a bunch of cutscenes every time.

Also, yes, I do babysit. The toddler never pays attention to the television anyways so we just put it on Paw Patrol and leave it alone for the day. Every now and again he'll look but not exactly pay attention.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I've already mentioned I think people should have the choice when queuing them solo or PF, but it also doesn't warn you that "people may skip the cutscenes and leave you behind , but you can watch them later at the inn. However you will not have the context of the fights or ingame text to frame these.". You think this is a matter of warning? If they just added a text box with your proposed warning it'd be OK then? Or would people just click on it anyway and progress because you have to? Maybe a box that you click "nah" and it skips the entire dungeon and gives you no XP. Nobody has a choice whether they do it the first time or not, warning or not.

You're also using an example of a longer time that may or may not happen. The queues have gone up yes, but unless I'm horribly uninformed primetime has only gone up to about 20 minutes for a DPS and is still within 5 minutes for healer or tank.

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It didn't warn you about cutscene skippers because every dungeon before Cast and Prae let you skip already. And no I'm not saying, "DUR HUR LET IT SKIP IT ALL BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANNA DO DUNGEON!" I'm saying now it's inconsistent. Now there are cutscenes with the "this take a while" warning that are shorter than Prae's forced watching. You'd think you'd want to mention that to your player since 15 minutes was considered long enough in other cases to net a warning.

Also, my "45 minutes later" was not the queue time. I never stated how long the queue would go, but since you want some information... I do level alts. Removing any skip potion characters from the list, I believe I've put about 5 through the story. The tank queue during prime time with a PLD was 11 minutes for Castrum. So already double what you said for your example. And I'm going to use the tank example because that was in 4.1, so just a little bit before these changes. And the changes no matter what will make less queue, so... that would get even longer.

For the record, on duty finder vs. party finder, the instructions in the quest objectives list usually say "Use the duty finder to enter [dungeon]". So new players are doing what they've been told to do.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Not every new player wants to see the cutscenes in Castrum. Or was the roulette all this time intended to be cutscene roulette and not, "Get this player through story" roulette?

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Not *every* new player wants to watch cutscenes, but I feel like it would be relatively rare. Can't say for sure though.

And yes, it's "get the player through the story" roulette - as in, it's set up to let them experience the story, not feel forced to either skip the cutscenes or miss out on experiencing the battles which are also part of the story of that event.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I haven't exactly done it on an alt for story since the change, but does the game alert the dungeon will take longer than most? Whenever cutscenes take more than 5 minutes in story they seem to put a warning going, "HEY THIS TAKES A WHILE" before they let you see them. Castrum and Prae doesn't warn you though, not when you unlock, and if you don't have access to the roulette, the duty finder doesn't even tell you that you're forced into cutscenes. Check the actual dungeon descriptions, nowhere does it say forced cutscenes, so why do people outside of roulette gotta be hit?

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I think that may not have been brought in until later in the game's development. The first time you get that warning is for the scenes at the very end of post-ARR leading into Heavensward.

Also, I feel like the extra-long cutscenes that trigger after just talking to a quest-objective person additionally need a warning because otherwise, until you're in it, it looks no different to the other hundreds of "go here, talk to X, maybe get a one-minute scene" objectives.

On the other hand, if I am going into the almost-definitely-final-dungeon of a game, I would absolutely expect to need to set aside a fair chunk of time for beating the dungeon and watching any associated cutscenes (regardless of whether they occur during or after the dungeon instance itself).

Forced cutscenes are not going to be an issue for a first-time player who has gone into the dungeon intending to experience the story, because they won't be intending to skip them in the first place.

I do agree that it would probably be helpful to add in a "time warning" to the description of the MSQ roulette though - not that anyone might actually *read* that description... or even a pop-up window in big flashing letters that they just click 'okay' to get rid of...

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Originally Posted by Iscah

it's set up to let them experience the story, not feel forced to either skip the cutscenes or miss out on experiencing the battles which are also part of the story of that event.

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See, the irony is that before no one was really forced to do anything. Newbies could ask to watch cutscenes and sometimes they'd be granted that. If they were lucky enough to have an FC at the time, they could've ran through it synced and proper and still be let to watch the cutscenes. Now no one has a choice at all and people really are forced to experience the story, whether they want to or not, and in a very specific way, and at a specific pace. So, to repeat a horse beaten well into its fifth death by now, this so called solution also doesn't really cater to the needs and wants of the very same demographic it claims to have been created for but only works for a very specific subset of it.

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I think that may not have been brought in until later in the game's development. The first time you get that warning is for the scenes at the very end of post-ARR leading into Heavensward.

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The question is, if such a system is already in place, why not add it to the existing relevant cutscenes if they're already changing things in that area? Is it that difficult?

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On the other hand, if I am going into the almost-definitely-final-dungeon of a game, I would absolutely expect to need to set aside a fair chunk of time for beating the dungeon and watching any associated cutscenes (regardless of whether they occur during or after the dungeon instance itself).

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And yet two expansions later and they have not repeated that design, leaving cutscenes at worst after the final boss fight (Keeper of the Lake) if not after you click the Exit and they're not awfully long when that happens. Both ARF and Ala Mhigo were low on cutscenes and you had a break between them and the main expansion's final trial. This is SE admitting, by implementation, that they made a mistake with our two culprit dungeons here. There is no reason to defend them.

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Forced cutscenes are not going to be an issue for a first-time player who has gone into the dungeon intending to experience the story, because they won't be intending to skip them in the first place.

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1. The issue of pace
2. The juxtaposition between being forced to watch cutscenes after an entire game's worth of cutscenes you can click through if not skip outright. It's a jarring experience.
3. Again, #NotAllFirstTimers

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I do agree that it would probably be helpful to add in a "time warning" to the description of the MSQ roulette though

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They did. Absurdly, they didn't add it to the separate dungeons. Funny because the change was made to the dungeons, not the roulette. And when you stop to think about it, that's exactly why this entire situation is entirely backwards and also shows how inappropriate SE's "solution" was - they tried to fix a problem with the roulette by changing the instances themselves. And I kind of get why, because newbies have no choice but to queue through the DF directly so how are you going to enforce the cutscene watching on the rest of the roulette-goers? But that only further highlights how lazy and hasty this solution is. Solo queueing, be it a full party or undersized, should've been given the choice to have it be like before. But that would've likely required they implemented a new mechanism (which for all we know might've taken less time than to make it a solo duty, wouldn't that be grand?)

Last point, before I return to my hole, is my amazement at the core dissonance in this debate. Not enough people queued for duties. Roulette was implemented to supplement queues. Change made that makes people queue less. By the very concept of it, why does it seem like a good idea to people? It doesn't even matter how a newbie experiences a story they might not even want to experience if they can't get into the duty in the first place. And we've already seen in this very thread 1. newbies who already declared they will not return the favor after they have gotten their clear, 2. good souls who tried and have given up. I reckon we'll only see more of these.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Designing a roulette in a way that makes people not want to do it is already able to be seen as terrible design. Yes, I can't just not do it. Yes I understand I'm not held at gunpoint to do MS roulette. I'm not saying people are forced to queue, I'm saying it's bad to force people to watch a bunch of cutscenes every time.

Also, yes, I do babysit. The toddler never pays attention to the television anyways so we just put it on Paw Patrol and leave it alone for the day. Every now and again he'll look but not exactly pay attention.

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You're not getting it then. You're not forced to queue, so you're not forced to watch the cutscenes. You can choose to not queue at all and watch no cutscenes.

Also: weird, most of the kids I watch like particular shows and specific parts of those shows and will watch them indefinitely. But they're older than toddlers so maybe there's the difference.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

It didn't warn you about cutscene skippers because every dungeon before Cast and Prae let you skip already. And no I'm not saying, "DUR HUR LET IT SKIP IT ALL BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANNA DO DUNGEON!" I'm saying now it's inconsistent. Now there are cutscenes with the "this take a while" warning that are shorter than Prae's forced watching. You'd think you'd want to mention that to your player since 15 minutes was considered long enough in other cases to net a warning.

Also, my "45 minutes later" was not the queue time. I never stated how long the queue would go, but since you want some information... I do level alts. Removing any skip potion characters from the list, I believe I've put about 5 through the story. The tank queue during prime time with a PLD was 11 minutes for Castrum. So already double what you said for your example. And I'm going to use the tank example because that was in 4.1, so just a little bit before these changes. And the changes no matter what will make less queue, so... that would get even longer.

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Your personal example is not anymore valid than the ones in this thread stating instant queues. You're also stating queue for a particular instance and not the roulette. The fact you don't want to bother with the story on alts means others have to run a high risk of not seeing the story properly on their mains?
And there are inconsistencies all the way through the dungeons and cutscenes. They don't explain you can actually leave the trial areas and queue later, they change the cutscene/dungeon dynamic drastically after ARR. These are all things that need to be addressed and I won't argue that, but your arguments for reverting to a newbie hostile system don't justify the cost to me and you have a solid way to avoid most of your own complaints.

Annoying after the cutsceen my pld hp is 1/2.....if you do a speed pull and the healer not on par with what going on guess what a wipe and do it again but w/o the cs more time added..

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Your personal example is not anymore valid than the ones in this thread stating instant queues. You're also stating queue for a particular instance and not the roulette.

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I'd think my example being just a few weeks before the change would tell something.

Also, I used that example BECAUSE that character didn't do it yet, meaning to start, he doesn't have the roulette, and secondly, the system is set up so characters that have yet to complete the instance they queue'd for get a priority. So that was 11 minutes for a tank, before forced cutscene changes, with a priority queue since the character never did it before. And again, with a TANK that is considered severely in demand to a point where 90% of the time the adventurer in need is a tank. Imagine how much worse it'd be for a new dps.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Do me a favor please. Go pick an episode from a show you like, okay? Any show is fine. Now watch that selected episode over and over. Tell me you never get sick of seeing the exact same scene over and over again.

That's what happens when you force cutscenes. You're making us rewatch an episode over and over every time we queue up. That'll drive people insane.

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That will only happen if people are stupid enough to do it over and over despite not liking it.
Nobody is forced to run the MSQ roulette. Even if you do run it you are not forced to do it every day or even every week.

Besides, if you can stand running the same dungeons over and over and over, I am sure you can survive ignoring some cutscenes that you have seen before.