SAM out classing all other DPS

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

So, now that we're seeing many progression parties with no SAM are we still going to say that the job is op?
The preferred party composition seems to be rdm, nin, brd and drg.

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Sam can/will be top contender to replace either job listed there, if not still top contender to replace nin or brd...

but seems, comps want buffing classes atm.. (for speed runs, see Sam well in there instead of one of the metionded)

while Smn, blm have zero chances.. and mnk is still probably less favoured over Sam..

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

Sam can/will be top contender to replace either job listed there, if not still top contender to replace nin or brd...

but seems, comps want buffing classes atm.. (for speed runs, see Sam well in there instead of one of the metionded)

while Smn, blm have zero chances.. and mnk is still probably less favoured over Sam..

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and for top fflogs, which still many want, besides the speed runs or 1st kills, Sam is still by far top contender..

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

Sam can/will be top contender to replace either job listed there, if not still top contender to replace nin or brd...

but seems, comps want buffing classes atm.. (for speed runs, see Sam well in there instead of one of the metionded)

while Smn, blm have zero chances.. and mnk is still probably less favoured over Sam..

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NIN will be there also for speedruns unless it is further nerfed. It really seems most people don't realise how good TA is.

Meanwhile, we see MNKs and DRGs in progression parties. Since HC raiders know a thing or two about optimality and understand how utility works, I'll just stay here and laugh, thinking about all the salt of the last few days.

And again, blm and smn have nothing to do with sam. The real problem is that rdm is just a superior caster. You should be asking for rdm nerfs or your own buffs to be balanced wrt rdm. Sam is not the source of your problems.

My OP job is not in any raid comps. I want a buff!!!!!!

blm should be like sam, big deeps no utility as a replacement like it was in 2.0 for mnk, either blm or mnk worked, if you had foe..

should be the same now with blm and Sam, either should work

but in 3.0 it went "physical only" for any

Sam might not need a nerf, but the other jobs (atm after 4.05 seems like mostly casters) need some buffs or balancing.. and looking at how Sam dps is insane and doesn't get punished, a sam nerf would have been merit instead of buffing all the others before 4.05..., just nin still seemed a bit OP too

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Meanwhile, we see MNKs and DRGs in progression parties. Since HC raiders know a thing or two about optimality and understand how utility works, I'll just stay here and laugh, thinking about all the salt of the last few days.

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Does the 2-4% increase of personal DPS from the DRG suddenly put them in raid comps?

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Originally Posted by Eyvhokan

Does the 2-4% increase of personal DPS from the DRG suddenly put them in raid comps?

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Apparently, yes.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Apparently, yes.

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This is literally only the Dragoon's DPS. None of the buffs were touched this patch, but personally the DRG him/herself now does 2-4% more damage than before, and that was enough to tip the scales?

it probably has alot more to do with class synergy and group buff stacking than anything else. if you can get 4 group buffers to all pop their buffs at the same time which causes you to end up skipping a phase, it's more beneficial than having a sam who will average out to more damage over the course of the fight. that and the huge nerf to single target balance card is a huge knock against sam.

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Originally Posted by Eyvhokan

This is literally only the Dragoon's DPS. None of the buffs were touched this patch, but personally the DRG him/herself now does 2-4% more damage than before, and that was enough to tip the scales?

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also don't forget the damage that the increased damage for the bard just for the dragoon being in the group providing the piercing debuff.

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Originally Posted by Shunye

also don't forget the damage that the increased damage for the bard just for the dragoon being in the group providing the piercing debuff.

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I don't think that changed this patch; it's still 5% IIRC.

From the numbers before, what DRG provided in terms of synergy/buff damage did not make up the raw numbers due to how low DRG was. The only thing that changed was the DRG personal DPS only, by 2-4%. Did that damage buff put the DRG up enough that the deficit was closed?

I feel this was their intention from the start; as what would have been SAM's more direct competition, MNK and DRG, single target DPS specialists...both respectively seem to be slowly being taken down a somewhat different direction as of SB, leaving SAM to be the dedicated single target specialist.

Honestly, it doesn't bug me as much as some other things. SAM should be amongst the highest DPS with how its kit is structured. I think the greater problems lie in balancing the other DPS jobs to be more on par in generating DPS sensible to their jobs' respective focus. I won't lie that SAM could maybe use a very slight trim or two with a few things, but otherwise this seems to be the plan they're structuring around.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

(enpi)

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Enpi is always a DPS loss to use, regardless of the situation. Only bad SAM even touch it. Yaten is only worth the kenki spent if it let's you get in a GCD you otherwise wouldn't before disengaging.

World first V4S had no SAM. Guess they can't be that amazing.

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Originally Posted by Esoterikk

World first V4S had no SAM. Guess they can't be that amazing.

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World first (edit: not first actually, but one of the first clears) for T5 had two Warriors in 2.0.

This is literally irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

World first (edit: not first actually, but one of the first clears) for T5 had two Warriors in 2.0.

This is literally irrelevant.

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Its actually extremely relevant, since parsing is an unofficial part of the game a class "being higher on the DPS meter" than you is not a good enough argument. If the hardest content can be cleared without a SAM then they aren't outclassing everyone enough to be a problem.

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Originally Posted by Esoterikk

Its actually extremely relevant, since parsing is an unofficial part of the game a class "being higher on the DPS meter" than you is not a good enough argument. If the hardest content can be cleared without a SAM then they aren't outclassing everyone enough to be a problem.

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Any combination of classes (within the tank/dps/healer trinity of course) can clear any content. The fact of the matter is what is optimal and what isn't. It's irrelevant because it has nothing to do with that. Progression is different from optimization. If you had bothered to read any of this thread you'd find that a lot of the posts are less "muh deeps 2low to samurai" and more "SAM in an optimal setting can outdamage the utility + damage some classes can bring."

You can clear any and all content without a ninja, but it doesn't change that they are too good.

"They cleared without <class>," is not an argument, period.

They actually had a SAM and switched to MNK because it's DPS doesn't outshine utility + damage.

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Originally Posted by Esoterikk

They actually had a SAM and switched to MNK because it's DPS doesn't outshine utility + damage.

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Someone in this thread already previously posted something that more or less proves at a certain level of skill a SAM will outdamage a MNK + Brotherhood. The difference however, was incredibly small. What you are not understanding is that utility makes it more progression safe. Read carefully. The fact SAM is not progression safe is just common sense. No one here has made an argument that SAM was/is required for progression or that it would completely invalidate classes in progression, but more specifically that optimizing in raiding and/or speedrunning that SAM would take precedence.

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Originally Posted by Esoterikk

They actually had a SAM and switched to MNK because it's DPS doesn't outshine utility + damage.

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I'm sure they wanted a Monk for Mantra if anything. Because damage is so ridiculous with their current gear.
What point is there in higher damage if you're dead afterall?

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I'm sure they wanted a Monk for Mantra if anything. Because damage is so ridiculous with their current gear.
What point is there in higher damage if you're dead afterall?

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Yep, was due to Mantra (actual utility, not fake DPS 'utility'), not for damage.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tions/dkets84/

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Originally Posted by Oscura

The fact SAM is not progression safe is just common sense. No one here has made an argument that SAM was/is required for progression or that it would completely invalidate classes in progression, but more specifically that optimizing in raiding and/or speedrunning that SAM would take precedence.

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This is something tanks and healers have been dealing with since 3.0, and that is fine (and only affects the top end min/maxers).

WHM is a pure healer, and will be amazing for progression, but once the fight has been learned SCH/AST will be better (up to the point where a WHM can solo heal)

There's nothing wrong with some jobs being preferred for progression and others for encounter optimization. Specifically in SAM case, we already see how it is NOT preferred for raid progression because of its non existant utility and the fact that you can't plan around raid-wide buffs to handle a dps check and things like that. Utility isn't just a flat dps increase, it also provides more adaptability to handle mechanics (i.e. mantra, we saw it in a8s and we're seeing it again now). If you take the selfish dps, you must also forgo this kind of adaptability and this must be considered in the balancing process. On a side note, this is why the current brd/mch situation is so ridiculous and one of the biggest failures of this expansion.

Surely noone here wants to suggest that SAM should be a worse choice for progression and an equivalent choice for min/max optimization...I hope. Because, you know, melee jobs are so close when you compute their personal dps + rDPS increase by utility that any kind of nerf to SAM dps will likely sentence the job to total irrelevance.

The problem people care too much with self dps numbers... But don´t care raid progression or what utility can bring to progression and don´t realizes single high dps numbers mean nothing if whole party is dead.

SAM was used on all the other floors. The swap to MNK was due to non damage utility to make healing easier.

'Support' DPS with no actual utility doesn't offer any more utility than a 'selfish' DPS. Their only reason for existing is whether the buffs are worth it over selfish DPS.

http://i.imgur.com/IdxG1JE.png

You don't even have Kenki mastery II people who say SAM is easy to play have zero clue about the rotation bet they think you use your 3 combos get your sen stacks and setsugekka for this so called GODLY DPS, so so sorry, but the class at a 90+% level actually requires a lot of thought and knowing when and when not to use certain abilities. WAH SAM hits too hard cause my DPS is lower WAHHHHH

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Originally Posted by Xensai

You don't even have Kenki mastery II people who say SAM is easy to play have zero clue about the rotation bet they think you use your 3 combos get your sen stacks and setsugekka for this so called GODLY DPS, so so sorry, but the class at a 90+% level actually requires a lot of thought and knowing when and when not to use certain abilities. WAH SAM hits too hard cause my DPS is lower WAHHHHH

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I wonder if it requires more thought than this post.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

I wonder if it requires more thought than this post.

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I'm sure that post required more thought than RDM does :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

I'm sure that post required more thought than RDM does :rolleyes:

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Oh look, another person posting Red Mage is easy.

Oh look, another post where I have to assert that I've constantly called my own class brain-dead.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Oh look, another person posting Red Mage is easy.

Oh look, another post where I have to assert that I've constantly called my own class brain-dead.

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Of course it's easy. If it wasn't, SMN's wouldn't be jumping ship all over the place. If you're calling your own class brain dead, then why keep playing it? That implies that you're bored.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

I'm sure that post required more thought than RDM does :rolleyes:

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I'm sure that post required more thought than Goldsmith does!

Wait. !@#%

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Originally Posted by Sawamura

The problem people care too much with self dps numbers... But don´t care raid progression or what utility can bring to progression and don´t realizes single high dps numbers mean nothing if whole party is dead.

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DPS is literally the job. The focus on utility is getting absurd. Bonus utility is great, obviously but DPS is utility.

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

DPS is literally the job. The focus on utility is getting absurd. Bonus utility is great, obviously but DPS is utility.

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Even you said this way. Still people is too focus self dps number and ignore fact how raid progression work. dps number isn´t for like hey dude look how much damage i just did.
All new raid is always about how make to keep party survive mechanic and clear it before enrage with minium gear level. Once everybody has higher gear level and learn mechanic is where dps number come in and speedrun like skip phase and farms.
This thread is make it sound like. There is no need to bring another job and just bring bunch of samurais to clear content to me.

Sorry for weird english. hope you understand what I mean.

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Originally Posted by Sawamura

Even you said this way. Still people is too focus self dps number and ignore fact how raid progression work. dps number isn´t for like hey dude look how much damage i just did.

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I can agree with this statement. SE made a design change to add utility to dps at the cost of their actually numbers. People judge jobs based off of parsers and flogs; yet this tools aren't calculating buffs onto the player that casted it so they look weaker; flogs doesn't even track radiant shield let alone add that damage to the SMN that casted.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

I can agree with this statement. SE made a design change to add utility to dps at the cost of their actually numbers. People judge jobs based off of parsers and flogs; yet this tools aren't calculating buffs onto the player that casted it so they look weaker; flogs doesn't even track radiant shield let alone add that damage to the SMN that casted.

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All of those buffs ARE quantifiable. There are literally numbers associated with them as well, you're just pretending no one cares about them.

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

DPS is literally the job. The focus on utility is getting absurd. Bonus utility is great, obviously but DPS is utility.

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Well sam was dropped for v4s apparently because of it's lack of utility so, I guess you can argue something that has, in practice, proven to not be true?

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Originally Posted by KuroTenshi

Well sam was dropped for v4s apparently because of it's lack of utility so, I guess you can argue something that has, in practice, proven to not be true?

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Yes, a situational substitution absolutely disproves all empirical evidence to the contrary. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

Yes, a situational substitution absolutely disproves all empirical evidence to the contrary. Thanks.

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Tfw a person complains about another class when they can't even hit higher numbers on their own class...

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Originally Posted by KuroTenshi

Well sam was dropped for v4s apparently because of it's lack of utility so, I guess you can argue something that has, in practice, proven to not be true?

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Cause of what was it again? Oh right, Mantra.... given the gear at the time the help from it was bound to be needed. So I'd honestly expect that requirement to dwindle as people gear up. Once people are better geared, Mantra will become once more again, niche.

Isn't the whole point of utility to overall boost or upkeep the DPS? You ress someone so they can get up and continue DPS. You heal so they can continue DPS without death. You raise attack speed so you can hit more often for DPS. You have gap closers so you can DPS immediately. You have disengage so you can avoid damage in order to not die so you can continue to DPS. You grant a shield or take damage for an ally so they can DPS without worry they are dying, because dead DPS is no DPS.

If utility doesn't retain, increase, or recover DPS... what is utility?

The whole point of survival is so you can DPS as best as you can to take down a dungeon or boss.

Or am I wrong in my thinking?