The Real Problem with Parsers

I was kicked from a dungeon because i said to a bard "mind accesories" are not useful to his job. He responded me "i use mind accesories for mp" and i replied piety gives mana, mind gives heal. And bam i was outside the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by rappa

I was kicked from a dungeon because i said to a bard "mind accesories" are not useful to his job. He responded me "i use mind accesories for mp" and i replied piety gives mana, mind gives heal. And bam i was outside the dungeon.

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You were obviously running a parser. >:C

Saying it again for point proven.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Why is it that SE added an examine feature, which lets anyone who stands near you, or anyone just viewing your lodestone profile, look at your gear? They can track your progression, your effort and your worth.

Imagine if players didn't have the option. You suddenly can't see why your groups aren't reaching DPS checks, no one can single out anyone, because of glamour. Just little comments between each pull like "push the dps harder guys, we can do it this time." Isn't that nice?... but you're still failing content because someone, who although is a good player, is not so good as to keep up with the 20 iLevel difference between themselves and every other party member, but thinking about it, isn't being able to see someone's gear an atrocious and overstepping violation of freedom?

Alternatively, being able to examine someone lets you look at gear to set goals for, to see what other players of your class consider BiS or just the neat Glamour they are using; to be admired and to be shown new things, isn't this that same violation of privacy and privilege?

People don't kick people in average content for poor dps, because of parsers, they do because they are asses. The examine feature is enough for the toxic players to decide your worth.

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Please note* You are not the toxic player. xD In this case its that people should be open to advice and constructive criticism that active gameplay, Examine Feature, and parsers can provide. D:

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Originally Posted by rappa

I was kicked from a dungeon because i said to a bard "mind accesories" are not useful to his job. He responded me "i use mind accesories for mp" and i replied piety gives mana, mind gives heal. And bam i was outside the dungeon.

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How could you? The ignorance has to be build over time and now that poor bard has to start over...

It's being said that FFXIV has one of the nicer communities... yet any attempt to help other players learn something new or improve is quite often viewed as an insult or harassment.

This over-sensitivity is getting so crazy that some players consider even "not greeting your DF party members" toxic behaviour ._.

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Originally Posted by rappa

I was kicked from a dungeon because i said to a bard "mind accesories" are not useful to his job. He responded me "i use mind accesories for mp" and i replied piety gives mana, mind gives heal. And bam i was outside the dungeon.

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It was wrong of him to kick you (obviously), but it is kinda sad that these type of players just want to the game to be more than it is.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

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I think youre missing the point. I was pointing out reasons that parsers should exist in the game, and using wildfire as an example due to its 15s timer as a variable that could lower someones dps as in other people may not realize that. I never said I pop CDs I was using that as a hypothetical.

Youre entire post could be used as an argument against parsers.

This is a game that requires you to be a good dps. I wanna be a good dps and it is only fair I get to know how much DPS I am doing. Me and many other people do not play this game only for its Lore and "mistery".

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Originally Posted by rappa

I was kicked from a dungeon because i said to a bard "mind accesories" are not useful to his job. He responded me "i use mind accesories for mp" and i replied piety gives mana, mind gives heal. And bam i was outside the dungeon.

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So is this the same one where you posted the screenshot of you not doing that at all and doing nothing but facepalming and presumably trying to kick him out (which failed), or do you, for some reason, get a lot of bards who wear mind accessories thinking it gives MP and for some reason you learned how to be nicer to the later bard and not jumping to a vote kick?

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Originally Posted by rappa

http://puu.sh/knUts/f0b318156d.png

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This thread's full of enough bad arguments on the side of parsers, but outright lying about a situation is pretty low, no?

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

This thread's full of enough bad arguments on the side of parsers, but outright lying about a situation is pretty low, no?

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So is slander. Look at the character names

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

So is slander. Look at the character names

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What about the character names?

Edit: Here, let me be completely transparent and make it very clear to you why I ask this question.

That screenshot isn't the only thing that they posted in the post I quoted. They also had the role/class of the blanked out names and a screenshot of the Bard's Lodestone profile, which means they knew the group and the names. This should make it clear enough that they're not just posting someone else's screenshot they found on the internet.

And then there's this.

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Originally Posted by rappa

Obviously i didn't need a parser to discover this bard was underperforming. Wrong accesories and missing one actived the alarm.
With a parser, you could show his number against other party members. During that AV run, i was a bard too, i doubled the damage from that bard.

I killed a tons of time the first boss from AV and was the first time, the healer was out of mana. I had to eat 5 fruits with 3 stacks each one. After the kill with LB1, i checked the parser and that bard did 10 dps more than tank, and me 100 dps more. It's a lower difference, but doing a dungeon lvl 49, it's a big difference.

Be prepared, he is lvl 50+ and he is ready for Dusk vigil or other HW dungeons. Will be a pain if he doesn't learn anything from his job.

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So... you know, them outright stating that the person with the name not blocked off is them because, if you know how to logic, they say that the blocked out people are the tank, Bard, and healer, leaving... well, only one person. The unredacted person.

So now that it's not only proven but admitted by the person that they ARE the named person in that screenshot, I'll re-ask the question.

What about the character names?

The biggest artifical time gate on this game is bad players. Why would SE ruin this by trying to make players better lol. They love all these bad players that can't parse higher than a Ifrit-egi.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

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Good job Sherlock, this char is my alter and in my second post i omitted some facts.


The point doesn't change anything. Two bad players with zero knowledge about the game, being 50+, kicked another one. I tried to kick the bard because he didn't respond me after a lot of questions.

The fact, parsers would help those players to know how far they are wrong. But Aiselia, trying to justify the unreasonable, being a White Knight against Parsers. Trying to protect the ignorance over knowledge.

All players have theirs playstyle and vision of the game. Being slacker, lazy or ignorant is not acceptable.

One example: You play 1 hour each day and have to cap esoterics. you try to queue as healer to reduce queue time. Then you are pairing with 2 dps with 200+ ilvl. Your first though is -"Nice, will be a smooth run"-. Wrong. One of the dps is spamming the same ability and the other one use 1-2-3 combo without positionals. After 20 mins and a few wipes in the second boss, you try to encourage dps to do their job. They go upset because one of them or both are watching a tv-serie and you are kicked wasting your time.

One solution is play with friends, yeah, right. If i play with my friends, neither of them queue alone. If nobody queue alone, try to do a roulette as dps. Would take long time during off-peak.

One part of the fault is SE, they force to players to git gud but don't put any messure to git gud.

A few weeks ago we needed a replacement because one of our raider had holidays and we wante to clear savage that week. We tried to search one dragoon and we tested in faust. Our ilvl requisite was 200+, neither of the dragoons could pass 1k dps, bad rotations, attacking from the front, attacking one add and dying. A lot of sorrows in our search of an average player.

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Originally Posted by hallena

Funny because im pretty sure the majority would vote for parser.

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If i queu for a lvl 60 dungeon and someone with similar gear is pulling 500dps while i pull 1.4k, ill kick them. i'm here for my eso or drop, not to carry their lazy ass

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You're worried about the other person's DPS in a level 60 Dungeon that's 3 manable with a 700DPS in i150s? And you do 1.4K? Somethings wrong here. Obviously the Tank isn't pulling fast enough to tear your eyes off of your parser.

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Originally Posted by rappa

The point doesn't change anything. Two bad players with zero knowledge about the game, being 50+, kicked another one. I tried to kick the bard because he didn't respond me after a lot of questions.

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Actually, it does change things. You said that you told him that Mind accessories don't do anything and when he said that it was for MP, you told him that Piety gave MP, not Mind. Your screenshot shows none of that. It's logically safe to assume that you didn't tell him Piety gave MP rather than Mind BEFORE your screenshot, as the "Give MP" reason was not said until your screenshot, so you couldn't have responded to that before being told it.


You claim that you were trying to give him information, but your screenshot only shows you responding to it with a failed vote kick attempt and a facepalm. In other words, you were kicked for acting like a jerk to them, not because you were trying to help. That makes you an example of the people who shouldn't have their paws on parsers, because you skipped the "Trying to help someone get better" and went straight for "LOLKICK".

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The fact, parsers would help those players to know how far they are wrong.

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And I said it before, a parser is not required at all to point out that a Bard should be using Dex because it's their main stat. What is required is the patience to point it out rather than jump to kick.

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being a White Knight against Parsers.

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Except I'm still not against parsers. I'm against people abusing them, and I think people should prove that they can handle them before asking for them. I also think people should come up with good arguments rather than "This person was wearing gear that was factually incorrect for their class and I tried to kick them instead of help them and got kicked instead". If the facts that none of their left side gear has Mind on it and their weapon has Dex and the game flat out tells you what the stats are used for are not able to convince someone that they should wear Dex accessories over Mind, a DPS number won't.

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One example: You play 1 hour each day and have to cap esoterics. you try to queue as healer to reduce queue time. Then you are pairing with 2 dps with 200+ ilvl. Your first though is -"Nice, will be a smooth run"-. Wrong. One of the dps is spamming the same ability and the other one use 1-2-3 combo without positionals. After 20 mins and a few wipes in the second boss, you try to encourage dps to do their job. They go upset because one of them or both are watching a tv-serie and you are kicked wasting your time.

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Which a parser won't do anything about. If someone's just spamming the same ability and the other's just doing 1-2-3 and ignoring positionals and both are 200+ ilvl (which means they must have at least one 210 item, which means both must have passed at least some Savage), it's a pretty safe bet that they don't care what DPS they're doing, so shoving a number at them will still get you kicked.

That's why you should come up with real arguments why a parser should be added, like showing where people actually would be helped, rather than pointing out hopeless situations.

At above. And that is why. Until as a community shows yoshi that we can have a parser for our own personal gain and not means to spite everyone else around us is that day we get a parser. Yoshi is not against it, his against the dick heads and I'm to hardcore for you type players. Again I'm not against it I'm for it and I want this as soon as possible, heck whenever we get a live letter for Q and A, I'm asking when r we getting a parser or clicking like about parser being added.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

And I said it before, a parser is not required at all to point out that a Bard should be using Dex because it's their main stat. What is required is the patience to point it out rather than jump to kick.

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Having a parser may have pointed out to him that his DPS was absolutely abysmal long before though and made him go look at what was wrong.

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Except I'm still not against parsers. I'm against people abusing them, and I think people should prove that they can handle them before asking for them.

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Guilty until proven innocent, I like it. Let's all prove we can use a tool for its intended purpose by not being allowed to use/speak of the tool in game because you'll get reported. Seems logical.

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I also think people should come up with good arguments rather than "This person was wearing gear that was factually incorrect for their class and I tried to kick them instead of help them and got kicked instead". If the facts that none of their left side gear has Mind on it and their weapon has Dex and the game flat out tells you what the stats are used for are not able to convince someone that they should wear Dex accessories over Mind, a DPS number won't.

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Personally I think people need to come up with better counter arguments than 'people are mean' but that's what it always comes down to in these threads. As for the game telling you about stats, yup sure you're correct it does however without a valid way to see/compare your DPS numbers with others for all you know you're doing absolutely fine DPS even with those accessories, until you come across someone else who is doing a boatload more than you, and then you stop and think and say hey hold up, that guy is better than me, lets figure this out or ask him.

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Which a parser won't do anything about. If someone's just spamming the same ability and the other's just doing 1-2-3 and ignoring positionals and both are 200+ ilvl (which means they must have at least one 210 item, which means both must have passed at least some Savage), it's a pretty safe bet that they don't care what DPS they're doing, so shoving a number at them will still get you kicked.

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The point is, parsers over a period of time and constant use would let you see what you are doing, is your DPS improving? Is someone else absolutely trashing you? If they are it will cause a lot of people to think twice about what they do. I'm not saying EVERYONE will go out and see if the rotation they are using is correct but even if just 1/5 people do that's STILL creating a better community and raising the average skill level in the game. Right now people have NOTHING to go on, they literally don't know what numbers they are pulling so they will assume they are doing just fine which is causing problems in fights with DPS checks.

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That's why you should come up with real arguments why a parser should be added, like showing where people actually would be helped, rather than pointing out hopeless situations.

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The benefits of people being able to see and compare their DPS is just great, it makes people actually think about what they are doing, not everyone will care to improve but those people who simply think they are doing well, but actually aren't will have something to show them they are seriously behind and would give them a reason to go out and look for some help or ask.

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Originally Posted by Jamein

Having a parser may have pointed out to him that his DPS was absolutely abysmal long before though and made him go look at what was wrong.

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The game flat out states that Piety is for MP, Mind is for healing, and Dex is for increasing damage for Bards.

According to the screenshot of the person's lodestone profile, they have a 60 DRG, which means it's not even their first class.

In the time it took to level a character to 60, they either never bothered to learn what stats actually do or just plain didn't care. Now, given that their lodestone profile screenshot also shows an accessory with a purple gem (Dex, because Amethyst jewelry gives dex) but what appears to be Hard Leather Wristbands (level 17 accessory but has Dex) and an empty ring slot, I'd say that the more likely scenario is that they don't give a damn either way because they didn't even bother equipping a second ring or upgrading their bracelets for 30 levels.

In other words, a parser won't prove anything to them when they haven't even cared enough to fully equip themselves. Period.

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Guilty until proven innocent, I like it.

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Blame the people in this thread who outright state they want parsers so they can kick people out of their roulette runs for making them take 5-10 minutes longer. Blame the people in this thread who will attack someone's DPS without even ever having grouped with them before because assumptions. Very few of the pro-parser arguers have proven themselves to be mature enough to handle talking about parsers, much less use one and be allowed to call people out on it.

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Personally I think people need to come up with better counter arguments than 'people are mean'

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Except they don't, because it's a perfectly valid reason.

If you don't want to play with people with low DPS, the game isn't forcing you to. You are perfectly free to create groups for any and everything. Expert roulette and High level roulette even let you go as a fully premade group. Low level and trial roulette may not let you queue as a group, but you don't get anything from there that you couldn't get from running dungeons with a premade group.

Which is why "I want to be able to kick people out of MY roulette runs for wasting MY time" is a terrible argument on the side of parsers. Nobody forces you to run with them. You chose to roll the dice for what you get, you should have to live with it.

People like you wanting to shrug aside valid reasons because you can't argue against them is also why I came up with other reasons, not the least of which is "console limitations", which is allegedly why we didn't even have a TP bar for so long even though it was more objectively useful than knowing what bonus stat you're giving the party.

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The point is, parsers over a period of time and constant use would let you see what you are doing

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Yes, I know, and that's why I support parsers in a limited scope and am not against them. Which I already said. That you responded to. So you should know that. So you're wasting your time trying to convince me.

That also has nothing to do with people who have clearly cleared at least some Savage Alexander intentionally just mashing whatever because they don't care.

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If they are it will cause a lot of people to think twice about what they do.

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Or it will cause an increase in harassment reports. Whether they're acted on or not, that's GM time that has to be spent on stuff, which backlogs the GMs and makes what could be more important issues get pushed later, which then annoys the customers who want a fast response but can't get them because the GMs are too busy dealing with reports about people trashing them over their DPS.

Is a possibility of people caring about their DPS objectively worth the extra time and money that SE will have to spend on handling harassment tickets and a slower response time for potentially more important matters?

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Except they don't, because it's a perfectly valid reason.

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Except that it's not a valid reason at all. You're merely feeding on paranoia and stating things that are simply not true. Are there people who would harass others because of parsers? Yes, definitely but people like that are in the minority and, news flash, idiots exist with or without parsers. There hasn't been a single case of people actually proving that parsers actually make player harassment worse. In fact there are various arguments that show that this just isn't the case.

Most good players that I know, and this has been backed up by other players experience, simply do not care about crappy DPS unless they are in a challenging raid. If you're running a simple dungeon like say... Nevereapp then there is no point in stressing over DPS numbers because it's going to be cleared anyway. If you are in an Extreme encounter or Savage then people have every darn right to complain about underperfoming party members because if they can't take criticism then they should not be in raids at all. Not to even mention that there are far more uses for parsers than simply checking DPS read my previous post for a very small summary of this.

I also redirect you to this excellent post.

All you are saying is, "I'm scared someone out there will be mean to me" or blatant exaggerations like, "everyone will suddenly turn into assholes if parsers are available". So your solution? Keep people as ignorant as possible? Screw the PS4 players who can't parse themselves? Parsers will not fix the problems with the community nor will it worsen it but it sure as hell going to offer some very important tools for players to improve themselves, there are plenty of players out there that THINK they are good when they just simply aren't and have no point of reference, which parsers would offer.

Parsers will do way more good for the community than bad by a very large margin and there is not a single justifiable reason we shouldn't have them. I'm also curious as to what you mean by "limited" parsing because that sure doesn’t seem to make much sense.

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Originally Posted by Merkava

Except that it's not a valid reason at all.

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Then prove it wrong.

You'll have to start by proving that all these people in this thread and others that complain that they have to bite their tongue instead of calling people out on their low DPS because it's specifically against the rules to say you're parsing won't, in fact, call people out on their low DPS if it's suddenly not against the rules to be parsing.

Good luck.

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stating things that are simply not true.

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Prove it to be wrong.

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Are there people who would harass others because of parsers? Yes, definitely

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Or it will cause an increase in harassment reports. Whether they're acted on or not, that's GM time that has to be spent on stuff, which backlogs the GMs and makes what could be more important issues get pushed later, which then annoys the customers who want a fast response but can't get them because the GMs are too busy dealing with reports about people trashing them over their DPS.

Is a possibility of people caring about their DPS objectively worth the extra time and money that SE will have to spend on handling harassment tickets and a slower response time for potentially more important matters?

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Since you seem to think your argument is grounded in truth and evidence, which by the way it's not, prove that the potential for people to get better will objectively outweigh any negatives caused by an increase in harassment reports, including, but not limited to, time spent by GMs on reading and responding to tickets, money spent on extra GM time (or extra GMs if it's a significant increase), increased response times on tickets because of extra tickets, loss of revenue from people banned if they are found to be harassing, and potential loss of revenue from people who get harassed and think that the game is going down the crapper because it's not as fun any more.

Good luck.

Bear in mind that any benefits that a parser will bring are entirely subjective and not proven at all. Whether a player gets better with a parser is up to them, not the parser. People can still not care. A parser is not required to enjoy the game, as many console players enjoy the game and it's impossible for them to parse, and many PC players enjoy the game who do not parse. Since a parser is not required to enjoy the game, all benefits are subjective. So your job is to prove that subjective opinions are worth more than tangible costs in time and money if there is an increase in harassment.

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There hasn't been a single case of people actually proving that parsers actually make player harassment worse.

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So you're obviously choosing to ignore the multiple people who have flat out said that they totally would call out people on DPS if it wasn't bannable to even mention that they're parsing.

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In fact there are various arguments that show that this just isn't the case.

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Which are entirely subjective. There are also various arguments that parsing and players trying to enforce some subjective standard does increase harassment. Confirmation bias doesn't make your link automatically true.

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Most good players that I know, and this has been backed up by other players experience, simply do not care about crappy DPS unless they are in a challenging raid.

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What's your point? Your limited scope is irrelevant, as is it situationally useless as evidence. A lot of people in this thread alone and in other places have stated that they simply DO care about crappy DPS no matter where they are. They just can't say anything about it right now.

If you tell some random that you're parsing now and they're too low, you can be banned for it if they report you because third party programs. You'd have to be either naive or willfully ignorant to think that this doesn't skew the current situation towards people not saying anything about low parses and just dealing with it, because they can be punished for saying anything about it right now. Remove that restriction because it's no longer third party and I can guarantee it'll go up.

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If you're running a simple dungeon like say... Nevereapp then there is no point in stressing over DPS numbers because it's going to be cleared anyway.

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I know.

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Originally Posted by hallena

If i queu for a lvl 60 dungeon and someone with similar gear is pulling 500dps while i pull 1.4k, ill kick them. i'm here for my eso or drop, not to carry their lazy ass

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Originally Posted by hallena

im not gonna spend 30-35minutes in fractal so im kicking that person.

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Tell that to people like that.

Maybe you're choosing to ignore people like that because you think they're in the minority, and maybe they are, but that's a perfect example of the kind of person that the people you attack for being "fear mongers" are wanting to avoid. Which means you're factually incorrect by saying that it's not true at all.

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If you are in an Extreme encounter or Savage then people have every darn right to complain about underperfoming party members because if they can't take criticism then they should not be in raids at all.

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Which I've already said earlier in the thread I agree with. Really, like 99% of the people trying to argue with me could save everyone's time and space on the forum by just going back and reading what I've actually said and what my actual positions are.

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All you are saying is, "I'm scared someone out there will be mean to me" or blatant exaggerations like, "everyone will suddenly turn into assholes if parsers are available".

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No I'm not. I've said repeatedly that I'm a tank main, not a DPS, so I'm not as concerned with my DPS as I am with staying alive.

I've also never made any exaggerations about "everybody" turning into assholes, except one time where I explicitly stated I was using it as an example of a ridiculous exaggeration.

Even if I had said those, which I haven't, that still wouldn't be ALL I'm saying, because I also brought up a potential increase in harassment reports, whether actionable or not, which costs SE time and money for their GMs, AND brought up console limitations that have to be kept in mind, which you just completely ignored. Which isn't a surprise, because a lot of the pro-parsers somehow completely forget that due to alleged console limitations, we didn't have TP bars for a long time, yet somehow think a full parser with detailed information and a consistent overlay to be able to see data in real time is just easily added in.

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So your solution? Keep people as ignorant as possible? Screw the PS4 players who can't parse themselves?

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If you bothered to take the time to actually look for my solution, it's actually the opposite of what you're claiming.

In fact, if you had bothered to read the post you replied to, you would have read me saying:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Yes, I know, and that's why I support parsers in a limited scope and am not against them.

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To restate my point for 99 millionth time even though I doubt you'll even read this post because you certainly didn't read my previous one, my position is that the optimal compromise is a personal parser with optional sharing. Personal by default for times when people DON'T need to see your parse (duty finder, roulettes), and optional sharing for when they DO (raids, Extreme trials).

But for some reason, some people are dead set against that because they want to see the parse at all times for some reason, even though you assert that people don't care about DPS outside of raids.

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Parsers will not fix the problems with the community nor will it worsen it

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Prove it won't worsen it. I'll help you out. You can't. No matter how much you state that it won't worsen it and no matter how many arguments you drag up from other places, you cannot prove it without putting parsers in because anything less is speculation. Speculation that's generally stated by people who want parsers, so one could argue a bias.

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Parsers will do way more good for the community than bad by a very large margin

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Prove it. I'll tell you to do this every time you make the claim. You have no more evidence that it will help the community and not negatively affect the community than I have to the opposite.

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and there is not a single justifiable reason we shouldn't have them.

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None that you'll read or admit to, anyways.

Feel free to debunk the console limitations one, though, since you think that it's not a justifiable reason.

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I'm also curious as to what you mean by "limited" parsing because that sure doesn’t seem to make much sense.

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It's been stated repeatedly throughout the thread. And I do mean repeatedly, because you people don't seem to like to catch up on an argument before jumping into it.

Edit: I'll also point out that while having a parser may have the potential to make someone improve, it also has the potential to make someone worse through tunnel vision. People standing in AOEs or ignoring adds simply because it'd cause their DPS to drop can cause a wipe just as much as someone having low DPS to start with. Things like this didn't become a comic because of a single isolated incident that happened to one raid ever.

It can be especially bad for people who you think SHOULD get it to improve. If someone's getting called out repeatedly for low DPS and they don't like it, do you think they're going to be the first to willingly jump over and do some mechanics or get out of AOEs that they could totally survive and just make the healers cast an extra heal on them when it's going to make their DPS drop a bit? DFing Alexander floor 1 can be annoying enough with multiple DPS that just leave the adds for someone else to handle while they continue shooting Oppressor... until the group wipes because nobody killed an add under a nuke.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

You'll have to start by proving that all these people in this thread and others that complain that they have to bite their tongue instead of calling people out on their low DPS

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So by that logic we should also get rid of examining other people's gear, because people get shamed and discriminated against rampantly due to their gear, right?

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

So by that logic we should also get rid of examining other people's gear, because people get shamed and discriminated against rampantly due to their gear, right?

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By what logic?

Your question has nothing to do with what you quoted.

Examining gear has objectively more uses and benefits than a parser. I already demolished that argument ages ago the last time you tried "Well, X can be abused too, so X should be removed."

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

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Okay, clearly parsers are going to turn everybody into an elitist zombie tunnel visioning numbers.

I am not obsessed with the numbers, but I do seek equality. Equal accountability for every single member of the group.

How are you going to prevent one person in the group, when you have no metric, no idea who it is, to stop wasting other players' time? How are you going to enforce that every person does their part in fights required by the game itself? Suggestions are welcomed.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Okay, clearly parsers are going to turn everybody into an elitist zombie tunnel visioning numbers.

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That seems like an awfully big exaggeration to make. You should avoid making bad arguments like that.

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How are you going to prevent one person in the group, when you have no metric, no idea who it is, to stop wasting other players' time? How are you going to enforce that every person does their part in fights required by the game itself? Suggestions are welcomed.

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In content where it matters, like raids and such? With parsers. Which is why I support them. Which I said in the post you quoted.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

stuff

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All you're doing is trying to justify being able to get away with doing turd dps while tanks/healers will be immediately kicked for being bad at tanking and healing.

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Originally Posted by segagamer

All you're doing is trying to justify being able to get away with doing turd dps while tanks/healers will be immediately kicked for being bad at tanking and healing.

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Please point out to me where I said this.

Start at the point where I stated that parsers can be important tools for self-improvement and absolutely are useful in content where there's actual DPS checks that matter.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

That seems like an awfully big exaggeration to make. You should avoid making bad arguments like that.

In content where it matters, like raids and such? With parsers. Which is why I support them.

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Wait... are you trying to tell me that time of hardcore raiders is more valuable than time of casual players in Duty Finder?

Here is the thing. The group's well being should come first over the comfort and laziness of individuals. It doesn't matter what kind of content it is.

If somebody is being toxic with parser numbers - you can kick them. If somebody is watching Netflix - you can kick them. Equality.

And for the record I never kick players from groups, but if they are showing lack of effort I do consider leaving them to their own devices.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

By what logic?

Your question has nothing to do with what you quoted.

Examining gear has objectively more uses and benefits than a parser. I already demolished that argument ages ago the last time you tried "Well, X can be abused too, so X should be removed."

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Your argument (the part I quoted) was that people are going to harass others based on low dps.

Examining gear has objectively fewer uses than knowing how much someone is contributing to a run. All gear shows you is what they can be doing, while parsing shows what they are doing.

You demolished nothing, I never used that argument before.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Wait... are you trying to tell me that time of hardcore raiders is more valuable than time of casual players in Duty Finder?

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No, I'm saying that there are DPS checks in raids where you absolutely need to be above a certain point or you will make zero progress, which is what makes it important.

There are no current dungeons that have DPS checks that require much more than basic character knowledge, and definitely no strict DPS checks. You will not fail Neverreap if your two DPS are each doing 500 DPS. Even the HM trials aren't particularly strict. I've cleared Bismarck HM with one DPS dead from the start because they jumped off the side before the fight even began.

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Here is the thing. The group's well being should come first over the comfort and laziness of individuals. It doesn't matter what kind of content it is.

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Here is the thing. There is no objective "acceptable" DPS short of "being able to clear the content".

If you can clear the content, you are doing enough DPS. Anything extra is a bonus to make it faster. Pulling one pack of mobs at a time? You can clear it. Pulling all the things and AOEing them down? You just clear it faster.

Are you claiming that you would be absolutely fine with a tank being kicked out of a run for NO reason other than that they didn't want to pull everything because they weren't comfortable doing it, because they should put their comfort behind what everybody else wants?

If you want to control your group and how fast you clear it, you are perfectly capable of creating a premade group. Expert Roulette lets you queue as a full group, even. You require zero random people. You can queue with three friends and clear it exactly as fast as you want.

If you don't want to accept that some people won't play to your standards, then you shouldn't be using DF when you have the ability to completely control whether or not the other people in your group will play to your standards. That would be like a gambler rolling dice and getting annoyed when they lose because they hate how dice have sides that aren't beneficial to them.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Your argument (the part I quoted) was that people are going to harass others based on low dps.

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No it wasn't. It was that the person needs to prove that people won't.

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Examining gear has objectively fewer uses than knowing how much someone is contributing to a run.

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Uses of a parser:
See how well someone is fighting. May or may not help if they care to pay attention to you or the parser.

Uses for examining gear:
Seeing if someone's wearing crafting gear or the wrong stat.
Seeing what gear someone's actually wearing if they have it glamoured.
Seeing what someone's glamour is because you liked it and want to get the item too.

Or did you forget there's more to the game than DPS numbers?

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

As long as content gets cleared...

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No. No player should expect others to do their work for them. The current situation when players are allowed to do this while enjoying their sweet anonymity is something that should be prevented and not supported.

Funny as it is I am leveling my tanks through the Heavensward content. Do you know what I do when somebody tells me to pull more? I do pull more, I am not happy about it - as usually I do small pulls, but I am able to adjust.

Why don't players create their own PF groups when they want to get carried? Oh wait... if the whole group put in the same amount of Netflix effort, they wouldn't clear it...

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Originally Posted by Archaell

No. No player should expect others to do their work for them.

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Then make friends with people who you know are good and make premades where you know everyone will pull their own weight. Not only do you get a faster queue (or help two DPS get a faster queue if you're tank/healer), but you get to make sure you're going through the dungeon fast.

You may not want to accept it, but if both DPS are pulling 300 DPS and you're still clearing the content, then they're doing acceptable DPS for the content. Objectively. You may subjectively want them to do more, but the game objectively decides what's acceptable.

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The current situation when players are allowed to do this while enjoying their sweet anonymity is something that should be prevented and not supported.

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The problem comes in when people have different ideas of what's acceptable. Expert roulette only requires an ilvl of 145. That means it's expected to be cleared with i145 gear-sized DPS.

Are you suggesting that everyone in the game will know an OBJECTIVE "acceptable" DPS level based on the gear requirements and accept to put out a minimum of that amount, and conversely accept that anyone putting out at least that minimal amount is being acceptable for the dungeon? But where is this magic objective number going to come from?

Suddenly SE has to come up with a new set of rules and new calculations in order to quantify what levels of DPS are acceptable that they can put on the DF listing so you know not to go if you don't qualify, or else you can be kicked "in fairness".

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Do you know what I do when somebody tells me to pull more? I do pull more, I am not happy about it - as usually I do small pulls, but I am able to adjust.

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That doesn't answer my question. My question was, would it be fine if people kicked tanks for pulling a single group at a time because that was what they were comfortable with? For that matter, are you fine with people kicking tanks because they stay in tank stance instead of switching to DPS stance to make the run faster, simply because they're not comfortable removing their tankiness or not comfortable with their threat generation?

Are you fine with people kicking healers for solely healing instead of stance dancing because they're not comfortable with it and don't want to risk a wipe because they didn't do it right?

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Here is the thing. There is no objective "acceptable" DPS short of "being able to clear the content".

If you can clear the content, you are doing enough DPS. Anything extra is a bonus to make it faster. Pulling one pack of mobs at a time? You can clear it. Pulling all the things and AOEing them down? You just clear it faster.

Are you claiming that you would be absolutely fine with a tank being kicked out of a run for NO reason other than that they didn't want to pull everything because they weren't comfortable doing it, because they should put their comfort behind what everybody else wants?

If you want to control your group and how fast you clear it, you are perfectly capable of creating a premade group. Expert Roulette lets you queue as a full group, even. You require zero random people. You can queue with three friends and clear it exactly as fast as you want.

If you don't want to accept that some people won't play to your standards, then you shouldn't be using DF when you have the ability to completely control whether or not the other people in your group will play to your standards. That would be like a gambler rolling dice and getting annoyed when they lose because they hate how dice have sides that aren't beneficial to them.

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One half of your argument is that public parsers will turn more people into jerks, and increase the rate at which people are harassed in content by their mere presence. And the quote listed above is the very crux of the other half of your argument.

You hold to this idea that the group should be beholden to the comfort of the individual. Killing one target at a time, killing smaller packs instead of larger packs. You think it is the prerogative of the individual to be allowed to play how they will in DF, based on what makes them comfortable. This seems also to extend to the amount of DPS being done and whether it is sufficient to clear content. One simple way to explain how you couldn't be more wrong, is that SE has proclaimed that it is entirely acceptable to kick people out of your group because of differences in playstyle. This means that if a tank "didn't want to pull everything because they weren't comfortable doing it", and the rest of the group wants them to, and they refuse, then they are 100% legitimately able to be removed from the group because the way they way to play conflicts with the way the group wants to play.

You talk about the DF as though it is inherently a mixed bag, that you go in having no idea what you will get, and that if you don't like what you got, you should have gone in with a premade. The reality that the precedent that SE has set is the exact opposite. If me and a buddy go into a DF together, and we get a tank that wants to pull small packs and kill 1 target at a time, then we absolutely have the prerogative to vote kick that tank from our group in hopes of finding a tank more suitable to our playstyle. We also have the option to try to convince the existing tank to play more how we want to play. It's up to us! In this case, the will of the many outweighs the will of the few. And SE stands behind this idea.

You repeatedly parrot the idea that the onus of how you play in DF is on you, and that if you want strict control over how your Neverreap run goes, you have but one option: go with a pre-made. That simply isn't the case. The onus is on the individual to play how the group wants to play, not the other way around. The individual can either play along, leave themselves, be tolerated or be removed. BUT, regardless of their choice, if the group wants you as a tank to do big pulls, because there are two heavily geared DPS and a healer in the group to support it, and you refuse because you're not comfortable, they ABSOLUTELY have the option to vote kick you out immediately.

So, disregarding issues of tank playstyle, this same concept extends to DPS as well. If someone is doing 300 DPS in an instance and the whole group has something else in mind (i.e. a quick clear for daily expert roulette), then that 300 DPS player can either step it up, be tolerated or be removed. The onus is NOT on the group to tolerate a low DPS 'bad' player simply because you can eventually clear content no matter how awful they are. The group has the means and the justification to remove said player from the group.

Whether individual or public parsers are introduced in the future, or neither, we still have unofficial parsers. People are still going to use them, whether SE implements one of their own. The main caveat is that you have to keep it on the downlow, or risk being punished as a result. Nearly everyone who parses has grown accustomed to this reality, and what ends up happening is that rather than confronting the offender and explaining the issue, they must remain silent and basically have two options: tolerate or kick. Even if nothing official is ever introduced, people will still parse and this will still happen. And to me, that's a shame. This corner people are being forced into is very unfortunate. For a good many people, having the tools and knowledge that comes from parsers would allow them to find the gaps in their play style and improve. They would have the context of knowing how their gameplay compares to others, whether how they perform is good or bad, acceptable or otherwise. But right now, mainly due to the fear of what would come with the introduction of a public parser, people largely remain ignorant.

To me, willful ignorance is never a good thing. There is no amount of hurt feelings and disappointment that can counteract the negative impact on the community by willfully forcing them to remain ignorant about the reality of DPS being done.

Yes, it is true that the introduction of public parsers would increase the amount of harassment and kicking that occurs based on subjectively low DPS. Sadly, jerks will always be jerks, regardless of the scenario. This makes it easier for some, which is also true. However, on the flip side of that coin is all the positive benefit you can reap by suddenly enlightening a community of people that have been unwittingly dwelling in the dark, unable to know or conceptualize the metrics behind their performance. They will finally have the opportunity to see how well [or not] they are doing, and have the tools necessary for learning and improving. The influx of knowledge that public parsers would bring would be absolutely immense.

For those concerned about the abuse.. well, you still have the option to report harassment, just as always. And people who would harass because of the knowledge that public parsing brought them should indeed go punished, just as they do now. But to think the system would simply collapse because of the presence of this knowledge, that the DF experience would be inadvertently ruined because people actually know what is going on, rather than remaining clueless, is completely unfounded. Turn to example like WoW, who have always had the option of supported parsing and see how this doomsday scenario that you and others like you repeatedly parrot, simply does not occur. You have no basis to claim that if SE were to introduce them into FF14, that the scenarios you describe would occur. You repeatedly say 'prove it' in reference to people saying that it wouldn't, and that is simply inane. Why is the onus on the people who disagree with you? How do you get off claiming one reality, and then turning around and refuting another possible reality simple because they cannot prove it. What makes your point of view superior? The answer is nothing, because it isn't.

Nobody knows exactly what will occur, all we can do is look at similar games with existing implementation of public parsing to see how things worked out. All evidence points to the reality you describe not occurring. All of the fear-mongering that goes on in this thread has absolutely no basis in reality. We all have to make educated deductions about the future of the game in respect to the introduction of parsers, but there is no evidence that points to the scenarios you describe becoming true. In fact, all of the evidence points to the direct contrary.

Parsing is simply a means to an end: the attainment of knowledge. Why would anyone in their right mind prefer to leave the masses in the dark... ignorant and unwilling to move forward, simply to avoid the punishable behavior of a small minority? There is such an insane wellspring of improvement waiting to be tapped, and the only thing holding it back is the fear that a small minority of under-performers would become uncomfortable with facing the reality of what they are.

How much DPS is enough DPS is completely subjective and is to be determined by the people who you choose to play the game with. You can solo all of the quests you want, and never once be questioned about your DPS, but once you step foot into the public domain, once you opt to participate in DF/PF, you subject yourself to the will of the group. And if the group deems that your performance is lacking, it is their prerogative to remove you from the group or tolerate your performance. But they are never subject to your will alone, and that is why public parsing will be a largely net benefit to the community, as opposed to a detriment.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

You may not want to accept it, but if both DPS are pulling 300 DPS and you're still clearing the content, then they're doing acceptable DPS for the content. Objectively. You may subjectively want them to do more, but the game objectively decides what's acceptable.

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What happens when you get tank or healer in the group who do the same amount of work as the 300 DPS players? I am quite certain that somebody has to explain why they can't keep up the enmity or tank alive.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

The problem comes in when people have different ideas of what's acceptable. Expert roulette only requires an ilvl of 145. That means it's expected to be cleared with i145 gear-sized DPS.

Are you suggesting that everyone in the game will know an OBJECTIVE "acceptable" DPS level based on the gear requirements and accept to put out a minimum of that amount, and conversely accept that anyone putting out at least that minimal amount is being acceptable for the dungeon? But where is this magic objective number going to come from?

Suddenly SE has to come up with a new set of rules and new calculations in order to quantify what levels of DPS are acceptable that they can put on the DF listing so you know not to go if you don't qualify, or else you can be kicked "in fairness".

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This magic number is going to come from... players playing the game. If you see DPS player doing 1000 dps and similarly geared another player who is doing 300 DPS, it isn't too hard to tell who is and who isn't putting in enough effort.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

That doesn't answer my question. My question was, would it be fine if people kicked tanks for pulling a single group at a time because that was what they were comfortable with? For that matter, are you fine with people kicking tanks because they stay in tank stance instead of switching to DPS stance to make the run faster, simply because they're not comfortable removing their tankiness or not comfortable with their threat generation?

Are you fine with people kicking healers for solely healing instead of stance dancing because they're not comfortable with it and don't want to risk a wipe because they didn't do it right?

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Yes, I am okay with it. If the group can't stand small pulls, tank stanced tank or healer who doesn't want to dps then they are free to kick them. Clearly these guys deserve to wait for a new tank/healer, while the tank/healer gets a new reasonable group in matter of seconds.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

No it wasn't. It was that the person needs to prove that people won't.

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So you're saying he has to prove the future if one thing happens. He's asking for nice things, you're saying we shouldn't have it because people will break it. I think it's you that needs to magically prove that bad things will happen.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Uses of a parser:
See how well someone is fighting. May or may not help if they care to pay attention to you or the parser.

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• See if you're hitting accuracy caps, more important for some jobs than others.
• See who the weak link(s) is/are when you can't clear content, and figure out if they need to fix it or be replaced.
• See how often you are hitting/missing/HQing on crafting/gathering, because the game is more than just dps numbers.
• See how much damage everyone takes.
• Use the information to decide where best to use buffs.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Uses for examining gear:
Seeing if someone's wearing crafting gear or the wrong stat.
Seeing what gear someone's actually wearing if they have it glamoured.
Seeing what someone's glamour is because you liked it and want to get the item too.

Or did you forget there's more to the game than DPS numbers?

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• Crafting gear doesn't spritbond in HW dungeons, so I don't see it as a major issue.
• Wrong stats shows not knowing the job, low parser damage shows not playing the job well. The end result is the same.
• I don't want people to know my glamour or look like me, this shouldn't exist.
• People can ignore examining their teammates the same they can ignore parsers.
• People can discriminate and gear shame

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Originally Posted by Archaell

What happens when you get tank or healer in the group who do the same amount of work as the 300 DPS players? I am quite certain that somebody has to explain why they can't keep up the enmity or tank alive.

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Then the entire group's going nowhere and a parser won't do anything to save them.

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This magic number is going to come from... players playing the game.

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But then that makes the number subjective. If someone did all right with 500 DPS and wasn't kicked before, then suddenly some group comes along that demands 1,000, what's the person supposed to take away from that?

I'll tell you the most likely scenario: "Man, those guys were jerks. I've never had problems with my DPS before. They're just elitists."

The less likely scenario is that they'll give a crap to get better.

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Yes, I am okay with it.

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Then it's funny how you advocate putting the needs of others before yourself and then say it's okay if people put their own wants ahead of the tank or healer.

You're also an example of the worst kind of person that should be advocating for a parser, especially when the common argument against parsers is that it'll cause more kicks that are unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Then the entire group's going nowhere and a parser won't do anything to save them.

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Exactly. The difference is that it is easy to see when the tank or healer aren't doing enough. To make things fair we need parser to see when DPS players aren't doing enough.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

But then that makes the number subjective. If someone did all right with 500 DPS and wasn't kicked before, then suddenly some group comes along that demands 1,000, what's the person supposed to take away from that?

I'll tell you the most likely scenario: "Man, those guys were jerks. I've never had problems with my DPS before. They're just elitists."

The less likely scenario is that they'll give a crap to get better.

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Yes, it is subjective. It depends on every single group how much are they going to require. If majority of players tells you that your dps is low... well sooner or later you might think about it and maybe it will motivate you to switch your role or improve.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Then it's funny how you advocate putting the needs of others before yourself and then say it's okay if people put their own wants ahead of the tank or healer.

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No. I say that needs of several players in the group are more important than needs of one player. Also you can try it. Enter DF as a dps role, tell the group that tank isn't pulling enough mobs and try to vote kick them. I am looking froward to read what happens next.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

You're also an example of the worst kind of person that should be advocating for a parser, especially when the common argument against parsers is that it'll cause more kicks that are unnecessary.

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Well yeah, I might not be best suited to advocate parsers as I am being too much realistic. In regard to unnecessary kicks... here comes the catch. If somebody is not contributing enough then I do not consider it unnecessary.

Probably, the first days after parser implementation would bring a unnecessary kicks. The community would have to acommodate and discover which numbers are fine and which are low or unacceptable.

There are two facts would occur:

- Players don't like to be kicked and search info to improve their rotations and playstyle.
- They don't care about stuff and join with friends who tolerate theirs low performance.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

One half of your argument

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I've made more than two points, so you're already wrong. Let me guess what you chose to ignore.

Increase in harassment reports if people do start calling others out on their DPS or kicking because of it, and console limitations.

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increase the rate at which people are harassed in content by their mere presence.

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Which is proven by this thread.

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You hold to this idea that the group should be beholden to the comfort of the individual.

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If you queue to get random people, you should accept the random people you get, as long as you can clear the content.

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SE has proclaimed that it is entirely acceptable to kick people out of your group because of differences in playstyle. This means that if a tank "didn't want to pull everything because they weren't comfortable doing it", and the rest of the group wants them to, and they refuse, then they are 100% legitimately able to be removed from the group because the way they way to play conflicts with the way the group wants to play.

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Despite that only ever being an attempt to defend the worst parts of the community, it's also not a catch-all.

Lots of people quote that but few seem to know that in the same thread, they also refused to quantify what that actually means, and went ahead and specifically said to report any suspected violation any time you think it's abused and let the GMs decide. Know what that means? "Difference in playstyle" isn't a catch-all that makes you immune to being punished. Otherwise they wouldn't bother telling you to waste their time, because you could literally chalk anything up to difference in playstyle. "I didn't want to share loot" turns into "Having two casters is sub-optimal, so we're kicking you". There would be literally no reason to even pretend there are rules.

In fact, here's a direct quote from the thread where that was brought up:

"If the concern is that this will be used as an excuse to abuse the feature, if our investigation determines that they did perform their duties in an appropriate manner and were kicked due to unrealistic expectations, then it could be found to be an abuse of the vote dismiss feature."

Y'know what that means? If someone's trying but not matching your DPS expectations, but they're still doing acceptable DPS for that dungeon? Reportable! Kicking them could be abuse!

Know what else that means? If a tank's only pulling one group at a time because that's what they're comfortable with and they're performing their role as needed? Reportable! Kicking them could be abuse!

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then we absolutely have the prerogative to vote kick that tank from our group in hopes of finding a tank more suitable to our playstyle.

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And the tank absolutely has the prerogative to report you for votekick abuse because they were performing their duties in an appropriate manner and you kicked them for unrealistic expectations.

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For a good many people, having the tools and knowledge that comes from parsers would allow them to find the gaps in their play style and improve.

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Which is exactly why I've said repeatedly that parsers can be useful.

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They would have the context of knowing how their gameplay compares to others, whether how they perform is good or bad, acceptable or otherwise.

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If they get the right context. Someone pulling 600 DPS in groups with someone pulling 300 DPS is going to think they're doing great. Then they get someone who pulls 1200 and lolkicks them because they didn't know they could do better.

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Yes, it is true that the introduction of public parsers would increase the amount of harassment and kicking that occurs based on subjectively low DPS.

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So many people say this while also trying to argue that having a parser wouldn't do that.

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However, on the flip side of that coin is all the positive benefit you can reap by suddenly enlightening a community of people that have been unwittingly dwelling in the dark, unable to know or conceptualize the metrics behind their performance. They will finally have the opportunity to see how well [or not] they are doing, and have the tools necessary for learning and improving. The influx of knowledge that public parsers would bring would be absolutely immense.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Is a possibility of people caring about their DPS objectively worth the extra time and money that SE will have to spend on handling harassment tickets and a slower response time for potentially more important matters?

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Don't forget that having a parser will not magically cause people to get better. They still have the choice to completely ignore it.

Also don't forget that a Bard having a parser means a lot less if they don't group up with other Bards, and even less if they're not geared similarly. The ST DPS a Dragoon or Monk can do is inherently higher than a Bard's, so they're not getting particularly useful information if they group with a Monk. They'll still need to go outside the game to know what's optimal for THEIR class and THEIR gear, which if they aren't doing now, probably won't start later.

Basically, a parser won't do anything if you don't have APPROPRIATE context for the information. If a Bard does 600 DPS and the Monk in the group does 500, the Bard sees they're out DPSing a Monk. Hooray! But... that's useless information, because the Monk is probably underperforming unless they're significantly undergeared from the Bard. But if they are significantly undergeared, then it's still useless information because they're comparing numbers that shouldn't be compared.

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But to think the system would simply collapse because of the presence of this knowledge, that the DF experience would be inadvertently ruined because people actually know what is going on, rather than remaining clueless, is completely unfounded.

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Which is why I've never said the system would simply collapse.

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doomsday scenario that you

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That I've never said.

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You have no basis to claim that if SE were to introduce them into FF14, that the scenarios you describe would occur.

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Considering the only scenario I've described is an increase (not total chaos), and people in this thread alone have already stated that they totally will do it if they wouldn't get banned for even mentioning they're parsing, then I do have a basis to say that the situation I described will occur.

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Why is the onus on the people who disagree with you?

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Because they're the ones claiming it will not happen despite people outright stating that they will do it.

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What makes your point of view superior?

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The fact that I'm going off of people outright stating that they'll do what I'm saying.

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all we can do is look at similar games with existing implementation of public parsing to see how things worked out.

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And WoW got a reputation for having a terrible community where people either badmouthed others' DPS for no reason or stood in things that hurt them because they were more worried about their DPS. It didn't get that reputation because it never happened. I've seen it myself. I'd gotten kicked from entry-level heroics in WoW on a fresh max level because my DPS was... at the level it should be for a fresh max level. And the other people were in raid gear and thought I should do their level of DPS. I'd seen people put down others' DPS in normal runs when they're not even the top DPS (I was, as a hunter, and pointed it out and shut them both up). I've seen people stand in bad things SIMPLY BECAUSE they figured the healer could keep them up and they would lose DPS time if they moved out. I quit that game BECAUSE of that community. So if you think that you can cover your ears and pretend it didn't happen, well, that's the same willful ignorance that you say isn't a good thing.

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Why would anyone in their right mind prefer to leave the masses in the dark

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Why are you asking this in a response to me when I've already stated repeatedly that parsers are useful tools for improvement? Is it maybe because you, like a majority of the pro-parsers in this thread, haven't bothered to actually read what someone's saying before lumping them into the extreme opposite of you want?

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Exactly. The difference is that it is easy to see when the tank or healer aren't doing enough. To make things fair we need parser to see when DPS players aren't doing enough.

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It's also really easy to see when DPS aren't doing enough. Namely, you wiped on a DPS check.

I do hope that you're keeping in mind that I've stated several times already that parsers absolutely are useful for raids and content that actually does have strict DPS checks.

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If majority of players tells you that your dps is low... well sooner or later you might think about it and maybe it will motivate you to switch your role or improve.

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And if nobody says anything about you needing to improve but then one or two groups do, even if they're right, what then?

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No. I say that needs of several players in the group are more important than needs of one player.

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The problem being, of course, that it only takes two people to kick someone. What if one of the DPS doesn't want to waste their time waiting for another tank to queue in, especially if they're potentially going to be just as slow, and was also perfectly comfortable going at the slower pace? Or what if the healer also prefers the slower pace? Then it's a 50/50 split of who wants the slower pace, but you're putting your own demands over what half the group wants.

And again, if they want a tank that's going to pull fast, they have the right to find a tank to queue with.

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Enter DF as a dps role, tell the group that tank isn't pulling enough mobs and try to vote kick them.

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Why would I? You're the one defending that terrible mindset.

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If somebody is not contributing enough then I do not consider it unnecessary.

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So if the content is being cleared, then that's enough, so any kick of them is unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I think it's you that needs to magically prove that bad things will happen.

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But I don't need to.

The people in this thread have done it for me by saying they'll do exactly what I'm saying.

I don't need to prove anything when the people who want parsers kindly do the job for me.

The day and weeks to follow when mch dropped, the community hated this class and lots of people recieved abuse or were outright excluded from content due to job choice.

I myself had first hand experience of being called out in the early days of Alex normal when a wipe happened due to failed dps check.

A mnk immediately said kick the mch they are shit dps to whicha healer in the group said, you do realize this mch is 300dps above you?

Food for thought.

Non parser users are quick enough to point the finger without having any evidence to back it up.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I don't need to prove anything when the people who want parsers kindly do the job for me.

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Pretty much what I see around here, especially in early pages.

I'm not against parsers, but I do really hope if it's going to be implemented, there will be a choice or vote system for the party in DF to activate and deactivate it.
I'm not a raider and I only play about 1 hour every day after coming home from work and so far, parser people I met in DF and Alexander were quick to judge and kick somebody, even though I haven't been kicked because my dps was somewhat satisfied them.
Maybe I need to play more, I dunno.

I'm no seasoned veteran player, more casual (In this case, only play occasionally, and often when multi tasking)

The community for the most part is already destroyed. A fair portion of raiders are elitist monkeys. That said, the biggest problem really isn't the parses, but more so the people using them, so most anger is completely misguided. You're going to have elitist brats on any game, regardless. In most cases I'd be for parsers, only to the extent that they can help players unfamiliar with their classes, for whatever reason. Assuming it's used in the right hands.

There's plenty of segregation already in the community. Can't see parsers making the situation much worse than it already is. Particularly with Square-Enix pretty much promoting them with their silly idea of having raids heavily based around high damage output requirements as opposed to proper mechanics(This is on the assumption that most elitist players already use parsers).

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

I'm not against parsers, but I do really hope if it's going to be implemented, there will be a choice or vote system for the party in DF to activate and deactivate it.

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I really think that's the best way to go to avoid stepping on peoples' toes as much as possible.

Always be able to see your own parse so that you know how much you're doing, optionally public (decided by each person so nobody is forced) for duty finder. Then add it as an option to enforce public when going as a full premade, so people can put in their party finders that it's going to be on and people can't hide their parses in the content that actually has DPS checks.
Maintain the rule that using third party parsers to see people who've got theirs set to private only to call them out on it is punishable. Put the stress on that if you want to control your group, you make your own group, and that if you queue to get random people, you accept that you aren't always going to get top-tier players.

That way everyone gets to see their own numbers, people don't get to whine about numbers in roulettes where they really don't matter, people can PF to their hearts' content to ensure that their important runs will succeed.
In addition, it can help avoid people getting confused over whether their numbers are good or not if the other DPS is not optimal either, or is of another class, or is a different ilvl.

There's really no realistic argument against this except from people who mistakenly think it's their job to police how others play when they intentionally queued up to get whoever the game decided should be matched with them. It gives all the benefits of having a parser while avoiding any arguments that it'll cause DF to become super toxic because without intentionally setting your parse to public in DF, there'd be no difference from what we have now.