Please Allow 50's to Enter Ishgard w/o having completed MSQ

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Originally Posted by Alacran

You know... Im sure it has been said before but in the time it has taken for this thread to get this far, much of the MSQ could have been completed...

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Actually, the vast majority of this thread consists of people talking on the behalf of others, and who already completed the MSQ ages ago anyway.
Mostly White Knights trying to defend "the poor newbies who won't be able to play their favourite emo job, the DRK, at the launch of Heavensward, but only a few days after by completing the MSQ... Q_Q".

So, in short terms, this is a thread about a few vocal White Knights protecting an even fewer part of the community made of exceptions which doesn't even exists yet.

You can be sure that almost everyone arguing here already completed the MSQ. And that's exactly why they are wasting their time on the forums, waiting for Heavensward to come.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

words

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No, a true knight would be defending these sort of people all the time. We have another term for people who pretend to be nice.

This thread is still going? I just finished all the popcorn in the world.

I should blame SE for getting fat...

Can't believe people still defendin'.
Not a single argument given has been good enough, at all.
They are doing what they can to make it a breeze for newbies to get up to where we will be
and you guys are still complaining...You're complaining about something that doesn't even effect you.
We that bored?

Do the story!

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Originally Posted by Fortified

Why are you all even still arguing? They aren't going to change it.

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Y otra vez.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

Can't believe people still defendin'.
Not a single argument given has been good enough, at all.
They are doing what they can to make it a breeze for newbies to get up to where we will be
and you guys are still complaining...You're complaining about something that doesn't even effect you.
We that bored?

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People will complain about anything forever.
If it goes against their worldview, it's worth arguing about forever to them.
Oh and all MMOs every made since the very first have an unpleasable fanbase. The more fans you have, the more they want.

Considering the fact we now know we'll have the option to go into low level content uncapped if we go in a unfilled party, anyone worried about their "new" friends can just go as a lv60 blm and curb stomp the entire lowbie dungeon circuit. Also those dungeons are going to be crawling with people leveling the three new jobs, so it isn't like they are going to be waiting long if they are just doing it the old fashioned way.

Let's be real, the majority doesn't care about new people they don't personally know, cause you scream at them like they murdered your dog if they don't hit cancel fast enough for the dungeon cutscenes. What this is really about is people with alts for whatever reason now have to do the story 2-8 times so they can get their craft, gather, or desynth mules into the new land of milk and honey. So yeah this gate won't hold rmt and player bots out forever, but damn it's going to be sweet for at least a month before they worm their way in.

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Originally Posted by Cian

Because you don't care about having to unlock winds does not mean it's not content gated behind a quest. It just does not matter to you. And the complaining going on here is not all that positive because you complainers are totally disregarding the efforts SE has made for you to progress very quickly through the MSQ.

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Attempting to compare a level 30 job that is gated behind a level 50 quest is simply to an unlocking system that is akin to Winds is a little strange to me. But you are right, you are free to not like it, and I won't dismiss your claim as such. I understand if you would like to be able to fly as soon as you enter an area, because that's a spirit of exploration that I can sympathise with. However, I believe the point to stress here is such:


It is not quite the same thing. Content is not being restricted to you. It is not like the winds are locked until you complete 3.5's MSQ (Whcih is still a ways off for us), you are allowed to go to it the moment you enter zones that are appropriate for the level to go unlock the winds.

Meanwhile, as said before, someone who wants to level a new job will have to do MSQ to 50, complete all of 2.5, then take a step /backwards/ to unlock the new job at 30 and do 30-50 again as the new job (very likely during FATE's) and will lose out on the benefits/enjoyment of running MSQ as their preferred main job.

As stated before, this to me is a bad design decision and only hurts the new players. For us veterans, it's perfectly fine because - hell, we've been here and have all this done. I've done it across -both- characters already, though I have to admit doing it a second time was the most boring, mind-numbing thing ever. Heck... doing it the first time was pretty aweful too. The story only really kicks in at certain points, otherwise it's quite often the grind for me.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

A quote I've got sigged on another forum is as follows: "Playing a Final Fantasy game and not watching the story is like going to Texas and not getting BBQ." (Replace TX with TN, GA, SC, NC, or your BBQ state of choice.)

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Keep in mind this is a story in which our characters are put into the world. For many people, they want to see the story, but just as some people will want to see the story as an Au Ra, they will also want to see the story as an Au Ra Dark Knight, Mechanist, or Astrologian. They don't want to see a Warrior's Axe / Paladin's Shield at the time of the final battle - they want to pull out whatever weapon they chose.

I don't think that anyone can argue against FFXIV having a good story, especially for an MMORPG. It's honestly been one of the second-best RPG Storylines I've seen since I played SW:TOR (which also had a ton of busy work/filler just like this game, but when the story was good it was -great- for fans of the series.) But the way people experience and enjoy it is for neither you nor I to say. Honestly, the people arguing /against/ people having level 30 job access are the ones who seem to dismiss the story readily - they are definitely suggesting to blitz the MSQ as fast as possible to get to what some people actually want. Why encourage people to not enjoy the story at their pace?

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

Can't believe people still defendin'.
Not a single argument given has been good enough, at all.
They are doing what they can to make it a breeze for newbies to get up to where we will be
and you guys are still complaining...You're complaining about something that doesn't even effect you.
We that bored?

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You can say not a single arguement has been given that's "good enough" but that's purely subjective, and personally, I can state right back that a single arguement hasn't been given that's "Good enough" to keep the current design.

Are we that bored? Can't speak for others, but yea. I am. lol. But I think it's also because this hits a bit personally / at home with me, as someone who's tried to recruit others to this game only to watch them get turned off by the massive grind of story at the end. So advocating for something else, even if it doesn't affect me, doesn't necessarily make it a waste of my time.

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Let's be real, the majority doesn't care about new people they don't personally know, cause you scream at them like they murdered your dog if they don't hit cancel fast enough for the dungeon cutscenes.

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Instantly lost all credit the moment you assume I make people skip Cutscenes. I've been one of the biggest defenders of cutscene watchers and have always supported as such, and often que'd as Tank/healer in an effort to make sure the new players have the best experience possible. You don't know the reason that people argue for something, so please try to avoid painting people with broad strokes like this.

Do you not understand that FATES won't be their only option for exp gain? As in dungeons and trials? You know....the same options we have now---only the exp rewards will be greater the second time around (be that SE tweaking roullete or clearance rewards at end, or the simple 50% armory bonus applied to everything they kill).

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

But I think it's also because this hits a bit personally / at home with me, as someone who's tried to recruit others to this game only to watch them get turned off by the massive grind of story at the end. So advocating for something else, even if it doesn't affect me, doesn't necessarily make it a waste of my time.

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The story grind drove them away....

I was gonna come up with a sassy answer but screw it, if what they consider a 'grind' with the story drove them away then what were they gonna do about everything else that's a grind?

No, better yet, why not tell them that actually doing the story helps them avoid the obnoxious grind we've all dealt with up til now. Won't save them from future grind, so it may be an inevitable end for them.

Honestly, why don't you get them on here and have them speak for themselves. You're not doing anyone any favors. None of the people on here who 'speak on the behalf of people they know/don't know/never seen before/will never even meet' are and it's getting absurd.

You know what the people who actually ARE new that have been to this thread have said? Those I've seen have said they are enjoying the story, what they have now, and are looking forward to unlocking things. And really, if someone from SE were following this thread who would they pay attention to more? The people making second-hand assumptions or someone one saying 'oh, well this one guy I know', or someone who is actually in that position?

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

You can say not a single arguement has been given that's "good enough" but that's purely subjective, and personally, I can state right back that a single arguement hasn't been given that's "Good enough" to keep the current design.

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So it's not "good enough" to tell you or any self-centered person thinking they shouldn't work for what they want to actually DO the story mode which is the MAIN factor in heavensward access? Hell why do we have to level jobs to 50 then? we should get access to level 50 jobs the moment we step out of the 1st CS, This is just bad game design.

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Originally Posted by Raist

Do you not understand that FATES won't be their only option for exp gain? As in dungeons and trials? You know....the same options we have now---only the exp rewards will be greater the second time around (be that SE tweaking roullete or clearance rewards at end, or the simple 50% armory bonus applied to everything they kill).

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It will still remain to be seen weather or not this bonus is enough to help ease the grinding process, and if it even exists. I'm eager to see what SE does with it, and as I conceded before, this is a step in the right direction. What I'm stating is rediculous is locking the content behind a level 50 wall for level 30 content.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

So it's not "good enough" to tell you or any self-centered person thinking they shouldn't work for what they want to actually DO the story mode which is the MAIN factor in heavensward access? Hell why do we have to level jobs to 50 then? we should get access to level 50 jobs the moment we step out of the 1st CS, This is just bad game design.

Regardless

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Hyperbole is not your strong suit, and does not suit your arguement.

No one is saying they do not wish to work, and no one is saying they do not wish to earn what they get. But I will stress this a second time: The jobs themselves are level 30, and a logical progression of the jobs SHOULD remain the same as they currently are, even for new jobs (Just as Ninja remained the same.) You should be able to unlock the job at the same level, without having to be nearly twice over the level in order to unlock it.

Getting to level 30 is more than enough. You advanced in the story to that point, and just like every other job, you should unlock the new job at that point. Just like how every other job, you get it at 30. Would it make sense if you had to take Lancer to level 50 before you could change to Dragoon level 30? That is roughly what this system currently is, as another poster pointed out - Advanced jobs with a bit of extra coushin to them.

So no, stating an overexaggeration that people don't want to work, when they have already worked to get to level 30 (Not suggesting anything be given for free) is not a good arguement to me. Please try to provide one that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

The story grind drove them away....

I was gonna come up with a sassy answer but screw it, if what they consider a 'grind' with the story drove them away then what were they gonna do about everything else that's a grind?

No, better yet, why not tell them that actually doing the story helps them avoid the obnoxious grind we've all dealt with up til now. Won't save them from future grind, so it may be an inevitable end for them.

Honestly, why don't you get them on here and have them speak for themselves. You're not doing anyone any favors. None of the people on here who 'speak on the behalf of people they know/don't know/never seen before/will never even meet' are and it's getting absurd.

You know what the people who actually ARE new that have been to this thread have said? Those I've seen have said they are enjoying the story, what they have now, and are looking forward to unlocking things. And really, if someone from SE were following this thread who would they pay attention to more? The people making second-hand assumptions or someone one saying 'oh, well this one guy I know', or someone who is actually in that position?

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Sadly it sucks to say, but I've lost most of my recruited friends in this game to the level 50 grind. The path getting there honestly is a bit monotonous (I remember going through it, and the only real moments that pre-50 stuck with me was fighting the primals and just how tedious the quests pre-titan were) but it's bareable. Tons of people mock this game because of the fact that you'll constantly have to return to the Waking Sands, which I rolled my eyes every time I had to do.

I don't drag them here because, let's be fair - once someone leaves the game, they're probably not coming back. Unless they're the type that come back for major content patches (Of which there is an installbase that does this), I do not believe any of them have an interest in returning. What I would like to see is preventing that in the future.

I have friends that are excited to play DRK. Thankfully a good number of htem had a pre-existing 50 job so all they'll have to do is clear the requirements at 50. I feel sorry for those who don't.

Why is it so difficult to understand that if you want something then you need to do the work that's required to get it?

How many games have we played that you had to beat the entire game on the hardest difficulty or collect all the secrets just so you can unlock a new character, or job, or items, or cheats, or levels etc etc?

This isn't a new concept. It's been done in countless other games and will continue to be implemented.

Some people just won't be happy unless they log in and have a bunch of NPC vendors in the starter city buffing them to max level and giving away the highest ilevel gear.

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Originally Posted by Nagrom

Considering the fact we now know we'll have the option to go into low level content uncapped if we go in a unfilled party, anyone worried about their "new" friends can just go as a lv60 blm and curb stomp the entire lowbie dungeon circuit. Also those dungeons are going to be crawling with people leveling the three new jobs, so it isn't like they are going to be waiting long if they are just doing it the old fashioned way.

Let's be real, the majority doesn't care about new people they don't personally know, cause you scream at them like they murdered your dog if they don't hit cancel fast enough for the dungeon cutscenes. What this is really about is people with alts for whatever reason now have to do the story 2-8 times so they can get their craft, gather, or desynth mules into the new land of milk and honey. So yeah this gate won't hold rmt and player bots out forever, but damn it's going to be sweet for at least a month before they worm their way in.

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I think you just hit the nail on the head. Most of the people griping are doing so because of their alt accounts.

I actually disagree with SE about the decision to gate the jobs themselves - I figured they'd be unlocked in Coerthas. Ishgard itself needs to be locked due to the story, but there's no reason for the jobs to be locked too other than a design decision by SE. I can see their reasoning, but I don't like it.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Sadly it sucks to say, but I've lost most of my recruited friends in this game to the level 50 grind. The path getting there honestly is a bit monotonous (I remember going through it, and the only real moments that pre-50 stuck with me was fighting the primals and just how tedious the quests pre-titan were) but it's bareable. Tons of people mock this game because of the fact that you'll constantly have to return to the Waking Sands, which I rolled my eyes every time I had to do.

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So what were they going to do about post 50? Grinding doesn't end, only gets even more monotonous from there. Levels and ilevels are one and the same, it's a number that you're slowly building up from day one. At least with character level there was the joy of extending class/job story, main story, getting new abilities to try out. Post 50 would have been the same, any level cap will be the same.

And it's not like anyone would get to play DRK at lvl 1 anyway were it not gated. You'd still have to level something else. Hell, were the new Jobs tied to classes like ours are, they'd have to level more than just their one magical ideal class. Screw it, you need to anyway. Want to be a DRK, guess what, still gonna need cross class skills from PLD and MRD. So might as well be leveling them up from the get go, get them out of the way. Since they're at 30 at that point, continue, build on what you know and see what endgame is like.

WAR was my first 50, and pre-50 it was fun. Post 50, I hated it. Things were different, more complicated, and I had no idea it would be a different beast. And it is, not by much, but certain mechanics, the people, little things here and there. So my first 50 ended up being a bust. I eventually turned to BRD and somewhat WHM and doing swell with them. I found my niche through the trial and error. Same might go for them. They may end up not liking how one of the roles acts in endgame with their slew of mechanics. Better they get a taste now with what's available and go from there.

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Originally Posted by Sskaiin

Why is it so difficult to understand that if you want something then you need to do the work that's required to get it?

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There will always be people with a "I want it but i don't want to work for it so just give it to me" attitude in every game
and in the forums they tend to hide that sentiment behind either the 'I am paying so i should get to play however I want' or the 'I am standing up for the little guy that for some reason can't even manage to voice his opinion on a forum he's so pathetic' sort of deal

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Originally Posted by Sskaiin

Why is it so difficult to understand that if you want something then you need to do the work that's required to get it?

How many games have we played that you had to beat the entire game on the hardest difficulty or collect all the secrets just so you can unlock a new character, or job, or items, or cheats, or levels etc etc?

This isn't a new concept. It's been done in countless other games and will continue to be implemented.

Some people just won't be happy unless they log in and have a bunch of NPC vendors in the starter city buffing them to max level and giving away the highest ilevel gear.

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You know, it's extremely funny to me. So far, I've had very few people come forward and discuss calmly and rationally. There was one guy a few pages back, and we had a pretty lengthy conversation (Though that quote chain of ours seems to have died off.)

Now I seem to be getting the people who rely on base insults as part of their arguement. "You just don't want people to work", "People want to be handed things" , "Your arguement's not good enough." I'll be honest, it's pretty sad in my book. I bite my tongue to make sure I don't turn around and use an equally baseless arguement in return such as "If you don't like what's being discussed here, why are you in this topic?"

Now, you quote previous video games as an example.

Tales of Vesperia (360) you could complete the game to unlock Mania mode. This also unlocked special bonuses such as increased EXP, carrying over Devil Weapon stats (the kills were what determined their strength once unlocked), items you had collected. etc etc. You beat the game and unlocked a replay of the game, but it was enhanced with extra content which gave it extra life. This is good design.

Tales of Vesperia (PS3) added new content on top of this. It did not require you to go beat the game to play the new on-level content. It did not lock anything behind the completion of it that it expanded upon - namely, with the new characters they added to the game. That wouldv'e been bad design.

Tales of Destiny R has a special "Leon" mode for once you beat the game, where you follow a continuing path of Leon's story after you beat the game. Again, good design, and was pretty awesome to feel uber-powerful. Logical progression at its finest.

Final Fantasy Tactics has had you unlock new jobs by reaching certain levels/gaining certain skills in other jobs and then you start out back at level 1. This, again, makes sense to me. I do not recall if any of the jobs were locked behind story, however in that game.

FFX-2 gave you the jobs at level 1, and you had to complete a quest in order to unlock the job spheres. If you didn't have the job spheres, you didn't have the job. This resulted in extra grinding after-the-fact. But it never required you to go to the end of the story and beat it in order to unlock a job sphere. Though especially powerful dress spheres like the Mascot were locked behind the Chapter 5 and certain pre-reqs. This was a mechanic in the game that made genuine sense and followed its logical flow.

FFXIV has jobs that are now locked behind level 50 content when jobs have never been locked behind content that is well beyond the level of the job itself, and is a system that is inherantly unfriendly to new players (those that SE shoudl want to catch) as well as those who want to make alts using the new jobs (which is a small percentage and if you wish to call that insignificant, well, I'll concede that willingly.)

You would have more of an arguement, in my opinion, if I was arguing that people shouldn't be required to level Archer to play Black Mage. That would be trying to bypass work required to obtain the job. However, that is not what I am arguing at all.

I want to see players enjoying the new content, and would love to see this expansion be as profitable as possible as ARR 2.0 was for SE so far. I outright -love- this game and want to see it succeed as much as possible, and will happily state my thoughts on it - just as I welcome you to do the same in counter, so long as you will provide reasonable discussion on it instead of calling people "Entitled" or "Not wanting to work."

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Final Fantasy Tactics has had you unlock new jobs by reaching certain levels/gaining certain skills in other jobs and then you start out back at level 1. This, again, makes sense to me. I do not recall if any of the jobs were locked behind story, however in that game. ."

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Beowulf (unique Job) access via optional story Arc
Cloud Strife (unique Job) access via optional story Arc
Worker 13 (unique Job and character design) access via optional story Arc
Dragontamer (Beowulf's gf) access via optional story Arc

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FFX-2 gave you the jobs at level 1, and you had to complete a quest in order to unlock the job spheres. If you didn't have the job spheres, you didn't have the job. This resulted in extra grinding after-the-fact. But it never required you to go to the end of the story and beat it in order to unlock a job sphere. Though especially powerful dress spheres like the Mascot were locked behind the Chapter 5 and certain pre-reqs. This was a mechanic in the game that made genuine sense and followed its logical flow.

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X-2 is an interesting example because although the jobs were not necessary to complete the story, the game was also quite literally built in such a way that they didn't expect you to finish everything on the first round - you were expected to play it multiple times trying to get a better ending. Iterative game design, that's called.

XIV: ARR -> XIV: HW is the exact opposite, since you are expected to complete the MSQ just once and then derp around in the rest of the game doing whatever.

Think about FFX. You had to complete a large chunk of the story before you acquired your full party. I mean, you had to get almost a third of the way on the journey before you got Rikku as a party member full time. That meant no thief! And she was also quite a ways behind on leveling from everyone else too, although she caught up quickly. Think about how much of the story you had to go through to get your airship, too; prior to that, all your traveling was linear, blocked by story, and on foot. Bevelle was not available until midway through the game, and became completely locked down by the end.

So locking locations behind story content is nothing new to FF. It's just a different decision than what they did in FFXI, where a few of the new zones - and the new jobs - were available immediately. (With that said, who is to say that some of the other Coerthas zones won't be immediately available besides Ishgard?)

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

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We could spend months going back and forth listing examples of requirements to gain certain things. I.E. Uncharted 2 = Beat the game on Crushing, get the platinum trophy, collect all treasures to get the skeleton skins to use in Multiplayer that had the advantage of being silent.

The overall statement is that things people want are sometimes locked behind certain requirements. People that want those things need to do those things to get them.

Getting 1 job to 50 and completing 2.55 gives you instant access to 3 level 30 jobs. You want them to do it when a person gets 1 class to 30? Which one sounds more balanced? A level 50 with 2.55 completed gets 3 free level 30's or 1 level 30 gets 3 free 30's. First sounds fair to me, second sounds like a cheap handout.

You want to see players enjoying new content? Well if they are new players or old ones who haven't completed the MSQ yet then guess what? It's all still new content to them they can enjoy.

First of all, before I post anything, I just want to give a cordial bow and a "Thanks" to you for cleaning it up a little. :3 There's a lot less aggressiveness in this post and honestly, you have some really great/amazing points. So, thanks again.

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Originally Posted by Sskaiin

We could spend months going back and forth listing examples of requirements to gain certain things. I.E. Uncharted 2 = Beat the game on Crushing, get the platinum trophy, collect all treasures to get the skeleton skins to use in Multiplayer that had the advantage of being silent.

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Interesting point on Uncharted 2... the Platinum trophy I can understand - that's a measured achievement system, and makes sense. Attatching multiplay rewards to it though? Bleh. This is why I play Single Player games for the Single Player. xD

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Originally Posted by Sskaiin

The overall statement is that things people want are sometimes locked behind certain requirements. People that want those things need to do those things to get them.

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I won't disagree with this sentiment. But I do believe there should be a certain limit to the restrictions on things that is a part of good game design. In my eyes, the limit of a level 50 / story cap is a bit too much. But I can understand the sentiment towards the current restrictions as well (going to the next post on this one)

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Originally Posted by Sskaiin

Getting 1 job to 50 and completing 2.55 gives you instant access to 3 level 30 jobs. You want them to do it when a person gets 1 class to 30? Which one sounds more balanced? A level 50 with 2.55 completed gets 3 free level 30's or 1 level 30 gets 3 free 30's. First sounds fair to me, second sounds like a cheap handout.

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This is actually... an extremely fair and valid point. You shouldn't be given 3 level 30's for leveling one job up to 30. Perhaps making it so that PLD or WAR at 30 unlocks DRK, DPS at 30 unlock MCH, and SCH or WHM at 30 unlocks AST would be a good way to do it (Since that would b e keeping things in the spirit of the same-role, and would make for a more player-freindly transition.)

I'm not completely opposed to locks, so long as they make sense. And I have to concede to you that yea... you shouldn't get access to all 3 if you haven't leveled a role appropriate for the job to that point. Right now it's interesting in the fact that getting to 50 + 2.55 completion will unlock all 3. While not very newcommer friendly, I'll admit it's a nice little reward for those of us who have gotten there. Still, I wouldn't mind seeing an alternate path being awarded to those who are new to the game - as stated above

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Originally Posted by Sskaiin

You want to see players enjoying new content? Well if they are new players or old ones who haven't completed the MSQ yet then guess what? It's all still new content to them they can enjoy.

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There are a few big selling points for new players to join at the expansion:
1) The playing field is even. There is no longer catchup.
2) New jobs = much hype. People joined the game for /Ninja/ too.
3) Expansion = new content.

In my eyes, #1 and #2 are slightly hindered by the current system. Buying Heavensward out the gate is pointless and they should only buy ARR until they reach 50, at which point they should buy heavensward. This isn't a very good business model in my eye because it dissuades people from buying them both and the less investment = less reason to continue (People are more prone to tolerate that which they invest more into.)

In its own way it's good as well because if someone doesn't buy Heavensward and decides they don't like the game during ARR storyline, then they just saved themselves the cost of an expansion. But the way I see it, you might still hook someone easier on a job they're interested in at 30 than you might in telling them to wait until 50 + buy an expansion to try the new job.

Still, thanks again for keeping it civil. :)

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

Beowulf (unique Job) access via optional story Arc
Cloud Strife (unique Job) access via optional story Arc
Worker 13 (unique Job and character design) access via optional story Arc
Dragontamer (Beowulf's gf) access via optional story Arc

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Man it's been a while since I did Final Fantasy Tactics. <.< Wonder if I can get it on steam...

Not to mention that if, like Eidolon suggests, a fresh 30 gets 3 more free lvl 30 jobs, they can take one of these to 50+ explicitly doing msq very quickly, when every single person who planned ahead and was msq capped would get those level 30 jobs and be forced to do the much much slower 30-50 grind.

That said...

They limited access to the MSQ XP bonuses to sub 50 jobs NOT earned in Heavensward. I cannot express how grateful I am that they did this, to promote fairness.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

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I understand your position that the new Jobs may be a selling point to someone just starting the game, so leveling a job that they may not be interested in from 1-50, plus story could push them away. I don't think that even a majority of the people who do want to play these jobs would quit, just like that. Like you, I'm speculating.

These players will have to level other classes anyway. It's fundamental to XIV's design. They will have to go back to level 1, probably several times. I do not think that completing a story that takes half as long as it currently does, and rewards far more than it currently does (easing gear progression), is as much of a gate as people seem to think it is. I think that a casual player could get through that content in less than a month, especially with friends. Again, I'm speculating - however based on the confirmation that exp will be roughly doubled. If players DO leave because they can't have dark knight at 30, then I have to question whether they would have stuck around very long past 60, anyway.

I see these jobs as something to work toward. They ARE appealing, and just like many games with similar systems - a lot of the best/coolest classes take more work to get. I think that they are an objective to strive for, and something that makes Ishgard a more appealing achievement.

I also think that SE has gated this content for important reasons (I guess we'll know on Friday). They have done very well with the design and balance of this game, and I am not one to second guess this decision - because let's face it, the easy thing to do would be to NOT gate Ishgard at all and just use it to essentially reset all of the progress anyone who's been playing since launch has made, and ignore all of the content that they themselves have spent 3+ years developing. I could argue that this would lose SE more of their dedicated players than it would gain, though.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Forgive me if I am incorrect, but is Ninja not just a case where all you must do is unlock it like any other job?

True, there was no special requirement. But it was not avaiable when I began playing, even though I know it would come. My point was that I did at least 75% if not more of the MSQ even though I knew I would change to ninja as soon as it became available. So it is not a tragedy if new players have to complete the ARR side of the MSQ with one of the currently existing 10 jobs.



In other words, this is an extremely unlikely situation and what's more likely is people will enter the dungouns with their freinds and clear together, which will be less of a carry and moreso completing the content in a meaningful way. The only time they might do the carry is A) To get the armor, or B) to help their friend clear the MSQ one time and move on. And they'll do that regardless of job, so it has no relevance to 3.0 jobs.

True, but if you have high level friends you only need one friend to help you catch up. Joining an FC helps a lot. Familiarizing yourself with party finder helps even more.


What's the point here, if I may ask? The amount of knowledge we had about the new jobs and their requirements has little to no baring on the discussion at hand.

As stated, once we knew they would be level 30, it made sense that the only limitation of unlocking them would be having a level 30 job and -maybe- having another job at 15 to support it (As current jobs work this way.)

So...
I don't understand what you're getting at. Sorry.
I meant we first got the info that we will get new jobs. Although everyone understood that the Heavensward jobs will be in Ishgard. Much later it was revealed that the new jobs would start at level 30. At that point people began having problems with stuff that they accepted before.



You're quoting out of context. Do you know what the issue I was outlining with that was? It was the counter to the idea that someone will level as a tank (PLD/WAR) 1-50 and then switch to DRK at 50 because it was the most logical. My counter was that someone might choose to go with DRG (A DPS) and then switch to DRK at 30, instantly negating the whole point he had about it being "Helpful" to new players to be forced to 50 this way and that it would teach them their role.

True, but they might realise that the other classes are fun and maybe they wont main a DRK. They might try it, but once they realise that they can't play it effectively and that party members always kick them for not even knowing the basics, they will go back to the classes they grew fond of during the MSQ.
Here's the issue you're missing, though.

Fate Grinding doesn't often teach you meaningful use of your job. And this is how -many- people are going to level due to the massive influx of players making FATE grinding extremely lucrative out the gate for people trying to level as fast as possible. Meanwhile, if we allowed them to access the job at level 30, they would take the level 30 Job through MSQ and get to experience it and learn it via dungouns far more effectively than doing anything else.

It is far more beneficial to let the player play as the job they want as soon as possible (In my scenario, once they have a battle class to 30) than it is to make them take a step back. As cited before, we've seen many FATE-ninjas and just how bad they can be.

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Yes, fate leveled people are bad I'll give you that. Well they can continue to farm FATEs in Coerthas. Like I said, the wast majority of players have no qualms about kicking out those who aren't familiar with their classes. I hate these people(the ones doing the kicking) but there are a lot of them. Eventually the faters will have to fall back on classes they know how to play. I know this is harsh but these are the realities of the game.
I doubt those who can't be bothered to learn their class will get better just because we let them skip stuff everybody else had to do.

I dont understand why people keep complaning about this, get over with. You need to finish MSQ to go to HW and get the new jobs. just do it, you will a very nerft ARR story already anf stop complaining beacuse this is how things will be.

Eidolon new people to this game would not be able to get the new jobs anyway until level 30. We do not yet know what the plans are for making them accessible to those players. Unless perhaps the NPCs will be standing on the Dragonhead side of the Gates of Judgement.

I've run around in Coerthas at level 30 so its doable.

Why do you all feel the need to baby new players? As someone who is still kinda newish, it's insulting. Plus most of you got through the story, why do you think new players can't handle it?

Actually I think the original complaint was that new players won't be able to get the new jobs immediately because you must complete the storyline before you can get at the job NPCs. Hence the 'reason' why its so unfair to have to do the storyline... IDK I sort of lost track :confused:

However my point remains:
285 total MSQs... that's all new players need to complete and a great many of those take less than 5 minutes, hell several are almost insta turn-ins right at the same NPC.

They won't have to suffer through the 40-50 drought either.

Something some of you discussing scenarios around new players accessing the new jobs need to bear a few things in mind. We don't know the details of just how the jobs will be unlocked. I recall a change on their stance in different interviews about whether they will be unlocked in 2.x or 3.0 areas. If I remember right they settled on us having to go to 3.0 areas to unlock them.

This could very well be along the lines of the TAU and all the newer job quests in XI. They sent you into areas you really didn't want to be at level 30. Even though you technically could unlock BLU at 30, part of the quest sent people to a camp that BLM's used for soloing the end of their path to 75. PUP sent you into an area with even higher level monsters where you had to be mindful of mobs you couldn't Sneak/Inv past easily (True Sight/True Hearing). WoTG did the same sort of thing, as well as SoA. It should be mentioned that to unlock the SoA jobs you found yourself in areas with level 100+ monsters--even though technically you only needed to be level 30 to access them. (note also that you started all new jobs at level 1 when the cap was 75 for TAU and WotG, but it was 99 for SoA).

Just saying...it may actually be necessary to finish MSQ (maybe hitting 51+ along the way) to unlock them for more than just SE simply trying to gate the access.

People really need to stop putting the cart before the horse.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I think you just hit the nail on the head. Most of the people griping are doing so because of their alt accounts.

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I don't have an alternate account.

I have a recruited friend playing Dragoon thats going to have wait times worse than my hour's wait. And that's if the group can even clear it.

My *sole* concern are the trials.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

I don't have an alternate account.

I have a recruited friend playing Dragoon thats going to have wait times worse than my hour's wait. And that's if the group can even clear it.

My *sole* concern are the trials.

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As has already been discussed, those queue times are very likely to be dramatically reduced with the changes coming in 3.0.

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Originally Posted by Fortified

Why do you all feel the need to baby new players?

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Because new money is exponentially more valuable to an mmo than old money. Understanding this basic financial fact, people want the game to be more accommodating to new players so that its subscriber base will grow and the developers ability to create content will grow.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

I don't have an alternate account.

I have a recruited friend playing Dragoon thats going to have wait times worse than my hour's wait. And that's if the group can even clear it.

My *sole* concern are the trials.

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Considering I'm a tank and I just helped a group through steps of faith this morning, with 4 newbies, and we cleared it, I would not be too concerned. The old content isn't going anywhere as long as people still want to get relics for glamour.

I still plan on doing daily roulettes for a little while - provided SE doesn't lock those behind story content too....

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Meanwhile, as said before, someone who wants to level a new job will have to do MSQ to 50, complete all of 2.5, then take a step /backwards/ to unlock the new job at 30 and do 30-50 again as the new job (very likely during FATE's) and will lose out on the benefits/enjoyment of running MSQ as their preferred main job.

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leveling a new job is not taking a step back. it's leveling a new job. 30-50 won't be a fate grind unless the player wants it to be. SE has made changes to 2.0 content to make leveling much faster. changes to keep vets coming back to the lower level content. you keep presenting your argument as if new players will have to do every single thing that vets had to do and that is simply not true. They will not have to clear everything we had to clear. They will be getting double xp and and higher level gear in dungeons than we did. they will be able to do instances with less than a full pt. when 3.0 hits doing 2.0 content is looking pretty sweet compared to the way we had it. with the DF changes i know i will be hitting the 2.0 content quite a bit just for desynth items alone. so again, it's not like the suffering you present it as. and in the end, if people hate having to do the story in a FF game that much. . .this is not the game for them.

To expand on the portion of Eidolon's quote that Cian responded to....they can kind of sort of still run the MSQ again on their new jobs. They can view the cut scenes while on their new job from the inn, and they can redo the bulk of the fights as well--at least the ones that are available in the Duty Finder.

Just a thought that hit me when I read Cian's post.

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Originally Posted by Raist

As has already been discussed, those queue times are very likely to be dramatically reduced with the changes coming in 3.0.

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I'll believe it when I see it.

*Not* very optimistic.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

I don't have an alternate account.

I have a recruited friend playing Dragoon thats going to have wait times worse than my hour's wait. And that's if the group can even clear it.

My *sole* concern are the trials.

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SE has stated that some things that were required for 2.0 players to progress in the MSQ will be taken out at 3.0. and let's actually wait and see if the implemented changes to dungeons and trials are going to lessen the wait time before we keep assuming that 3.0 will be just like 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

I'll believe it when I see it.

*Not* very optimistic.

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Just a thought... perhaps you could take some steps to help speed up the process instead of expecting everyone else to come along and open the door for you and/or your friend.

With the changes coming in 3.0... that is going to be increasingly more possible to do (can enter dungeon with partial party, and in doing so you can opt to bypass level synch...if that isn't encouraging, you have a problem the dev's can't fix for you).