Make FFXIV more like FFXI and less like WoW

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Originally Posted by Dale

I read your examples and no where in any of my postings did I see myself crying "I WANT IT I WANT IT I WANT IT" like you claimed...

All of my posts looked perfectly reasonable to me... and if you think those are examples of whining and begging then I think it's safe to say you have never been around people who actually do whine about something.

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How do you not see it as "I want I want I want!" You literally said "We wanted we wanted" multiple times. We meaning 'the ff11 fans' which is you and several other people here. You essentially said exactly that. "I wanted I wanted." It is whining. You did say it to multiple people. You said it to multiple people after you already gave your opinion. You're bugging people about not sharing the same views as you and you continuously stating that exact same opinion in an attempt to drive it home. Like a kid who didn't get the toy he wanted. Your opinion was given why are you still giving it?

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Originally Posted by Reslin

Here's an analogy I have over this debate. WoW was the first car and it made cars very popular. Older mmo design such as EQ and FF11 was a carriage driven by horses. No matter how much you improve on FF11 or Everquest's design it will still be a horse carriage which barely anyone rides anymore but there are a few people out there who still ride horses and horse carriages. Those are the people who still play those kind of games. Right now most people are driving cars and looking for updated car models.

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Like I said, I've played WoW and don't see what the big deal is.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Like I said, I've played WoW and don't see what the big deal is.

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Some people have seen cars and don't see the big deal in cars. They prefer horses.

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Originally Posted by Reslin

How do you not see it as "I want I want I want!" You literally said "We wanted we wanted" multiple times.

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No. I used the word want in a single one of those posts you listed. And that was only because that was the wording the person I was responding to had used.

Like I said, if those were your best examples of me supposedly whining and begging I am not impressed.

Why are people ignoring the fact the game uses (!) over NPC's head. WoW clone, end of discussion.

Edit: i have already made some posts in this thread, but FF14 took WoW concepts and upgraded them with better gfx. It is that simple, and trying to point out little differences to justify it not being a clone does not mean it is not a clone. The game could have come up with its own system of leveling or it could have been a FFXI clone, but they went total WoW on us. Even the producer admits wanting to use the model of WoW.

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Originally Posted by Reslin

And those are even if it's valid or not to cry over. I'm guilty over it to over the housing prices. Though, I feel my whining was warranted but it WAS whining. See? I admitted I myself have done it.

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Well two things

So quit crying and begging over housing as well as other things.

You are crying about others crying.

Got to take some of your own advice man.

Both = just as bad?

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Originally Posted by Reslin

Some people have seen cars and don't see the big deal in cars. They prefer horses.

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Yes but Wow is the horse. It's an old game who's time has come. The MMO market is never going to evolve or get better if games keep copying it.

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Originally Posted by Doo

Well two things

So quit crying and begging over housing as well as other things.

You are crying about others crying.

Got to take some of your own advice man.

Both = just as bad?

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Show me a recent post of me crying over the housing. Oh, wait. I stopped about two weeks ago. So come again? Also I'm not crying about others crying. I merely stated that is what he's doing. Not complaining about it he can cry as much as he wants. As can you. More power to you. You can do it until the cows turn blue and go home. I'm debating and providing evidence to his crying but at this point he's arguing over the semantics of his own wording refusing to believe that "Hoping, preferred, want, etc" are pretty much the exact same thing.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Yes but Wow is the horse. It's an old game who's time has come. The MMO market is never going to evolve or get better if games keep copying it.

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No Dale. WoW is the car. It's the most up to date model we have. There's many people doing what you're doing in the car industry. All these cars are the same but just updated. We need some new form of transportation that's even better. Except no one has really produced the efficient means to do so. That's where the industry is at right now. FF14 is not an exact copy of WoW. It has some things that wow does not. It's just a different model of the original car wow put out. Even WoW has updated it's car model over the years.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Yes but Wow is the horse. It's an old game who's time has come. The MMO market is never going to evolve or get better if games keep copying it.

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So true....

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Originally Posted by Devilray

So true....

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The shutup in the forums and use the only real power you have: your money. If you think something is too much like a previous game, dont buy it. No one cares about your opinion anymore...

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Originally Posted by Whiz

No U no U no U...seriously. Bro If your going to call FF14 a wow clone then call every new/modern mmo released a wow clone.

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Thing is >.> 98% of them are. Ever heard of any mmo in the last 8-9 years being the new big thing? No, because they're all trying to get quick cash on the WoW clone crap before either going F2P or dying out completely. Every single mmo out there, minus a very small amount of them, feel like the same game, different graphics. Like I said in another post, it's not that they can't think of a new way to design a mmo, it's just no one has the balls to try it, no one is original anymore.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

Thing is >.> 98% of them are. Ever heard of any mmo in the last 8-9 years being the new big thing? No, because they're all trying to get quick cash on the WoW clone crap before either going F2P or dying out completely. Every single mmo out there, minus a very small amount of them, feel like the same game, different graphics.

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Uhhh almost every MMO release has been called the "new big thing" or "wow killer"

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Originally Posted by Reslin

Show me a recent post of me crying over the housing. Oh, wait. I stopped about two weeks ago. So come again? Also I'm not crying about others crying. I merely stated that is what he's doing. Not complaining about it he can cry as much as he wants. As can you. More power to you. You can do it until the cows turn blue and go home. I'm debating and providing evidence to his crying but at this point he's arguing over the semantics of his own wording refusing to believe that "Hoping, preferred, want, etc" are pretty much the exact same thing.

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I am no more whining about my opinion than you are of yours.

You have repeated yourself many times in this thread also - about how you believe WoW to be the new-age design that games need to imitate if they want to stay modern. So I could use your own logic against you and accuse you of whining about how you want games to be like WoW.

My point is you have a very weird idea about what whining is.

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Originally Posted by Dale

If you can't recognize that this game has basically copied and pasted WoW then I don't know what else to tell you. And that is why I kept my previous remarks so brief. Because I see no point in debating something so painfully obvious. It's basically WoW with a face lift.

And like I told that other poster, I don't understand why you think copying an old game is giving us something new and modern. But you are entitled to your opinion, even if it makes no sense to me.

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"If you dont agree with me then I dont know what else to say." Maybe you're just wrong.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

Thing is >.> 98% of them are. Ever heard of any mmo in the last 8-9 years being the new big thing? No, because they're all trying to get quick cash on the WoW clone crap before either going F2P or dying out completely. Every single mmo out there, minus a very small amount of them, feel like the same game, different graphics.

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WoW tapped into a market that wasn't tapped into. The casual market and it's been proven years ago that many people have trouble abandoning their first mmo unless it changes to the point where it's practically unrecognizable. WoW tapped into the casual market, something no mmo has done in the past, and many of those players are just now starting to tire over WoW. Only way to duplicate WoW's success? You need to tap into a new market that has never touched an mmo before. It's not as easy as it sounds.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I am no more whining about my opinion than you are of yours.

You have repeated yourself many times in this thread also - about how you believe WoW to be the new-age design that games need to imitate if they want to stay modern. So I could use your own logic against you and accuse you of whining about how you want games to be like WoW.

My point is you have a very weird idea about what whining is.

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I disagree but it's not WoW that I want. On the contrary. EvE is nothing like WoW and I love EvE. I have not stated what I wanted so you can't claim I'm pushing my agenda of what I want. I have stated I don't want FF11 but I'm not begging the devs not to re-implement FF11's design because I already know they won't and if they did I wouldn't even complain on the forums. I'd simply walk like I have on many mmorpgs in the past. I'm not complaining I'm telling you that you're not going to get an "improved FF11" it won't happen because that style of mmorpgs is dead. The best you can ask for is some developer to take a massive risk and try something completely new but most won't. Why? Most attempts at doing so met horribly. Darkfall tried something new. So did Mortal Online but most people don't even know what those games are because they turned out so bad. They're not alone here either.

I'm open for complete change but what do you propose they do? Asking for them to update the horse carriage isn't going to be a good business model when people are already producing cars. So come up with a completely new design here. My point is this..

FF14's design is safe and it was intelligent for them to follow a design that currently works. It was a risk free attempt at making an mmo that would capture a set group of audience and hang onto them. You're upset that they didn't go back on an older model that has no proof or backing that it still works in the current day. Any business man would tell you that would have been a terrible risk. You're not going to find many people willing to go back to that kind of unproven design when on the same token they could simply try for something new or copying what works.

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Originally Posted by Gideon

Uhhh almost every MMO release has been called the "new big thing" or "wow killer"

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And have any of them? Have you heard anymore news of those "new big things" lately? Nope. Know why? They try to copy the same game. They can't make a "WoW killer" if all they do is copy it.

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Originally Posted by Gideon

"If you dont agree with me then I dont know what else to say." Maybe you're just wrong.

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This coming from you, someone who just told another poster to shut up because no one cares about his opinion :)

My point to him Gideon was if we disagree on the basic fundamental then there is no point in even trying to have a debate about it. It would be pointless.

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Originally Posted by Reslin

WoW tapped into a market that wasn't tapped into. The casual market and it's been proven years ago that many people have trouble abandoning their first mmo unless it changes to the point where it's practically unrecognizable. WoW tapped into the casual market, something no mmo has done in the past, and many of those players are just now starting to tire over WoW. Only way to duplicate WoW's success? You need to tap into a new market that has never touched an mmo before. It's not as easy as it sounds.

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WoW in 2004 (or even 2007) is totally different to WoW in 2010-2014. It had more in common with XI than ARR. This is where most of their gains in subscriptions came from.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

And have any of them? Have you heard anymore news of those "new big things" lately? Nope. Know why? They try to copy the same game. They can't make a "WoW killer" if all they do is copy it.

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This argument is silly. MMOs are still called "the WoW killer." The difference isnt in that they are copy & pasted from WoW and therefore disregarded, it's that WoW isnt the same juggernaut anymore.

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Originally Posted by Dale

This coming from you, someone who just told another poster to shut up because no one cares about his opinion :)

My point to him Gideon was if we disagree on the basic fundamental then there is no point in even trying to have a debate about it. It would be pointless.

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For the record I told him that if he thinks every game is a WoW clone and the market will never evolve if we keep buying them, to shutup in forums and use the only real voice he has: his money.

And you assume that there's only one answer for what color the sky is. It's flawed.

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Originally Posted by Reslin

No Dale. WoW is the car.

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No Reslin. WoW is the horse. It's old, and I'm tired of it. It's time for something new.

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Originally Posted by Magis

WoW in 2004 (or even 2007) is totally different to WoW in 2014 or ARR. It had more in common with XI than ARR. This is where most of their gains in subscriptions came from.

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WoW in 2004 had very little to do with FF11 because I quit FF11 for the very reasons it was different. The leveling process was longer in vanilla wow than current wow but still 6x quicker than FF11. There's also the fact that you could solo up to max level so if you can't find a group you weren't trapped. It allowed casuals to get a character to max level. The biggest flaw was that it's end game wasn't very casual accessible but it still garnered a massive following because the restrictions on the leveling curve, crafting, etc had been made quite a bit easier and more casual.

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Originally Posted by Dale

No Reslin. WoW is the horse. It's old, and I"m tired of it. It's time for something new.

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If that is the case then FF11 and Everquest is a wheel to the horse carriage. Look, I don't know what you're trying to do or argue here. I really don't. Are you telling me that WoW is just as old as FF11 and Everquest and just as outdated? It isn't. This idea is.. absurd and that argument is absurd considering that WoW and it's mechanics are newer than either of them. The car argument is very much spot on in that cars have been around for a very long time and some people are asking for the car market to change. It's very much like the mmo market and asking to go back to something older is not "Refreshing."

There's nothing wrong with believing that WoW is old. The market does need to change. I agree with you there but going back to a model older than wow isn't the way to do it.

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Originally Posted by Dale

No Reslin. WoW is the horse. It's old, and I"m tired of it. It's time for something new.

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^ This. It's time to put the horse(WoW) down.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

^ This. It's time to put the horse(WoW) down.

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There's a simple solution: Go find a game that isnt WoW. Here's one: EVE Online. It's about as anti-WoW as you can get. Quit trying to make other games your idea of what they should be, because quite honestly, you are a minority.

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Originally Posted by Dale

My point is you have a very weird idea about what whining is.

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It's only whining if it's something you disagree with and your opinion is also the vocal minority. Too many hypocrites.

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Originally Posted by Gideon

There's a simple solution: Go find a game that isnt WoW. Here's one: EVE Online. It's about as anti-WoW as you can get. Quit trying to make other games your idea of what they should be, because quite honestly, you are a minority.

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Tried EVE, got bored. Another game that's not like WoW? There isn't.

Also lmao, minority? >.> Have you missed all the topics lately all on the forums about people wanting change? Even in this topic itself, the people saying they want the game to stay the same (like WoW) are the minority, there are far more saying it needs to be changed. Even off the forums theres plenty of people who agree that they're tired of the same old crap in every mmo since WoW. Honestly, the people who want WoW clones are the minority in this, if they weren't why would all these new mmos be dying soon after release, even some during it?

This game will have no time anymore to evolve the defenders here will think it has but it wont have because the competing Companys out there wont wait to release another WoW Clone. People just have to face the fact that this Year will be another Year of new MMOs they have all this things XIV has and WoW and just building top of it even with the release. SE had their Chance with XIV they decicded to rebuild the whole game with new Engine instead of sticking with the Basics of 1.23 and builded on top of it with new and better stuff and new revolutionary systems

WoW will get a new Expansion, so some People will go back to WoW and try it.
Wildstar with a p2p model will be released
ESO will be released
Everquest next with Sandbox elements will be released and which is f2p
and maybe Black Desert Online will be released which is pure sandbox korean grinder

So 2014 SE had to deal with alot competition out there, while the kicking the hardcore and XI veterans in the nuts which is the so called "minority" in this game, they will probably losing subbings to the new games.

But i maybe got my answer why XIV:ARR feels like a Blizzard game already, Publishing Diablo 3 in Japan for them weeeeeeee BlizzEnix ftw.

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Originally Posted by Gideon

There's a simple solution: Go find a game that isnt WoW. Here's one: EVE Online. It's about as anti-WoW as you can get. Quit trying to make other games your idea of what they should be, because quite honestly, you are a minority.

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I played FFXIV because it wasn't WoW, now it is, so I and others say what we miss about it and it's predecessor (XI) so they go back to their own roots instead of alienate us as consumers by blatantly copying another game design (as good as it can be), and we have every right to do it.

Also EvE is not the kind of game we want (we would be playing it if it were), so please stop the nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

Tried EVE, got bored. Another game that's not like WoW? There isn't.

Also lmao, minority? >.> Have you missed all the topics lately all on the forums about people wanting change? Even in this topic itself, the people saying they want the game to stay the same (like WoW) are the minority, there are far more saying it needs to be changed. Even off the forums theres plenty of people who agree that they're tired of the same old crap in every mmo since WoW. Honestly, the people who want WoW clones are the minority in this, if they weren't why would all these new mmos be dying soon after release, even some during it?

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Factually innaccurate, if you look at the sales and subs between FFXI vs WoW vs FFXIV. This "WoW clone" is what people want. Don't mistake because there is a vocal minority that they are, in fact, the majority.

If you want something else, buy something else. Let your money talk.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

Also lmao, minority? >.> Have you missed all the topics lately all on the forums about people wanting change? Even in this topic itself, the people saying they want the game to stay the same (like WoW) are the minority, there are far more saying it needs to be changed. Even off the forums theres plenty of people who agree that they're tired of the same old crap in every mmo since WoW.

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Agreed. To give a point, there are like 4 posts on the forums that talk about how crafting is shafted and the economy is burning (with CMs saying "working as intended"). There are two complaining about the zones being tiny, and no reason to go exploring them (due to everything being instanced and instant teleport).

A lot of suggestions to fix these issues were suggested in this thread. But I guess it's better to ignore that and just call anyone who points it out "babies/children".

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Originally Posted by Dannythm

I played FFXIV because it wasn't WoW, now it is, so I and others say what we miss about it and it's predecessor (XI) so they go back to their own roots instead of alienate us as consumers by blatantly copying another game design (as good as it can be), and we have every right to do it.

Also EvE is not the kind of game we want (we would be playing it if it were), so please stop the nonsense.

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So you want what you cant have. You want some of this, but none that, some of those but none of these. The only way you would be happy is if you made your own game. Your arguments are endless and chase their own tails.

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Originally Posted by Gideon

Factually innaccurate, if you look at the sales and subs between FFXI vs WoW vs FFXIV.

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You're also forgetting you're comparing a game thats been going on for a decade (XI), when mmos were still new and less people had PCs for it back then, to a game that just came out(XIV) in an age where not having a decent computer is blasphemy. Give it until one of the newer mmos come out (ESO, PSO2 etc) and I bet you XIV's subs will drop like a rock. XI's been going on for a little over a decade and still making money, unlike all the other mmos who decided to copy the WoW model and died/had to go F2P in a year., which is exactly what XIV did.

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Originally Posted by Gideon

So you want what you cant have. You want some of this, but none that, some of those but none of these. The only way you would be happy is if you made your own game. Your arguments are endless and chase their own tails.

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I want the game Tanaka would have done if he had from the start the support and resources over his 5 or 7 years of development as Yoshi had for this soulless remake.

And striving for what we can't have is what makes people create new and innovate things, and you are saying that as if it were a bad thing. i pity how boring your life must be wit that way to see things. And yes, I would make my own game if I could, and I'm tying to get to that point, but I know you and many more will surely not like any game I would make. And I'm glad of that

Edit: Know what is really endless? Tombstone grind and loot/raid lockouts.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

You're also forgetting you're comparing a game thats been going on for a decade (XI), when mmos were still new and less people had PCs for it back then, to a game that just came out(XIV) in an age where not having a decent computer is blasphemy. Give it until one of the newer mmos come out (ESO, PSO2 etc) and I bet you XIV's subs will drop like a rock. XI's been going on for a little over a decade and still making money, unlike all the other mmos who decided to copy the WoW model and died/had to go F2P in a year., which is exactly what XIV did.

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Wild Star will have a bigger impact on FF14 than ESO. ESO is going to flop so hard. A complete disregard to the elderscrolls lore, incredibly grindy, people taking ages to kill in pvp, and more. It's being blasted everywhere. PSO2 isn't going to make a big impact either. Didn't they ask Yoshida for help after seeing the success of FF14?

By the way as much as people bash the F2P system there's a reason it exists. There's a reason EQnext is going to start as Free 2 Play and LOTRO went free to play when it still had a decently sized playerbase after they saw how much money it was making them in dungeons and dragons online. You can't point out that there's more players so many games should have over a million players. It doesn't work that way because most people won't leave their first mmo unless it becomes completely unrecognizable. For many people that was wow so many will not leave mmo no matter how good a game is. The market is huge and there's literally hundreds of mmorpgs out there and many have slight variances to major differences. These people have moved on from wow or started up in these games and are now trickling into the various ones on the market. So each games are getting their own niche of players. Unless something truly revolutionary happens you're not going to see an mmo on wow's scale. Even blizzard admitted it was an anomaly. A fluke.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

You're also forgetting you're comparing a game thats been going on for a decade (XI), when mmos were still new and less people had PCs for it back then, to a game that just came out(XIV) in an age where not having a decent computer is blasphemy. Give it until one of the newer mmos come out (ESO, PSO2 etc) and I bet you XIV's subs will drop like a rock. XI's been going on for a little over a decade and still making money, unlike all the other mmos who decided to copy the WoW model and died/had to go F2P in a year., which is exactly what XIV did.

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Factually inaccurate. It came out the same timeframe as WoW. It also was available for the PS2 before WoW (which negates your PC argument as the PS2 is the best selling console of all time). It was also out for the 360, which is another great selling system.

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Originally Posted by Gideon

Factually innaccurate, if you look at the sales and subs between FFXI vs WoW vs FFXIV. This "WoW clone" is what people want. Don't mistake because there is a vocal minority that they are, in fact, the majority.

If you want something else, buy something else. Let your money talk.

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FFXI came out when MMOs were new, and it's population was standard. It actually had a larger population than the great Everquest which had waaay more exposure and fame in the media. WoW was different to the new MMOs, and due to it's accessibility, scored a jackpot. You can't even compare the two, because only WoW saw such an increase in population. People didn't play because they liked MMOs, people played because they liked WoW.

ARR or any MMO isn't going to see the same population as WoW, no matter how much they copy it. However it should be built so that the players always have something to do and grind, so that they can keep the numbers they have. The gameplay of sitting in a town and teleporting into a dungeon all day isn't going to do that.

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Originally Posted by Magis

FFXI came out when MMOs were new, and it's population was standard. It actually had a larger population than the great Everquest which had waaay more exposure and fame in the media. WoW was different to the new MMOs, and due to it's accessibility, scored a jackpot. You can't even compare the two. If anything, you can see that until they changed the formula to be more "modern" FFXI held it's population for years.

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Again, completely inaccurate. Do you guys just make up these "facts" to support your claims? At their peaks, Everquest had nearly double the subscriptions of FFXI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_F..._subscriptions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest

The truth of the matter is FFXI wasnt a very popular game by any terms. Its been profitable to Square due to its longevity and loyal fan base. Unfortunately a lot of that loyal fan base has come over the FFXIV expecting the same game and are now some of the "vocal minority" you see on the forums now.

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Originally Posted by Gideon

Factually inaccurate. It came out the same timeframe as WoW. It also was available for the PS2 before WoW (which negates your PC argument as the PS2 is the best selling console of all time). It was also out for the 360, which is another great selling system.

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Factually inaccurate, WoW came out in the time when PCs were cheaper and everyone could get one. They also shoved ads at you like no tomorrow. XI had 1 ad (outside Japan), which negates your PS2 because not many people knew about it.

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Originally Posted by Gideon

Again, completely inaccurate. Do you guys just make up these "facts" to support your claims? At their peaks, Everquest had nearly double the subscriptions of FFXI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_F..._subscriptions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest

The truth of the matter is FFXI wasnt a very popular game by any terms. Its been profitable to Square due to its longevity and loyal fan base. Unfortunately a lot of that loyal fan base has come over the FFXIV expecting the same game and are now some of the "vocal minority" you see on the forums now.

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Wut...

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

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Originally Posted by Magis

FFXI came out when MMOs were new, and it's population was standard. It actually had a larger population than the great Everquest which had waaay more exposure and fame in the media. WoW was different to the new MMOs, and due to it's accessibility, scored a jackpot. You can't even compare the two, because only WoW saw such an increase in population. People didn't play because they liked MMOs, people played because they liked WoW.

ARR or any MMO isn't going to see the same population as WoW, no matter how much they copy it. However it should be built so that the players always have something to do and grind, so that they can keep the numbers they have. The gameplay of sitting in a town and teleporting into a dungeon all day isn't going to do that.

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It had around the same population as EQ which peeked at around 500,000 subs.