What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazhar

The original post only said that Y'shtola was ruining the story, and your sniveling, pedantic ass went by and said "akshtually she's popular", despite the fact that any people with a shred of reading comprehension could have understood the incredibly obvious implication that they were only stating their opinion and couldn't care less, honestly, about what your perceived majority you're bringing up in every single post of yours, was thinking.

You want stats? I'm pretty sure that polling would state that your interventions here are unwanted.

---

Ah, the famed mythical Drive-By Striker. You love to see it.

As far as main protagonists in the mainline series though, as simple as he was I still would say Cecil is mine. His journey from Dark Knight to Paladin is one I’ll always treasure, along with FFIV in general. Unlike Endwalker, it didn’t feel the need to purposefully throw everything into a “grey area” and was able to tell a pretty decent story of dark vs. light with lovable characters on both sides. Cecil himself also hit all the right notes in terms of fantasy in his Dark Knight gear and his more heroic look once he changed jobs. Unlike G’raha Tia, who is as close to a Paladin as we had in our party during Endwalker, his behavior was not offputting and I never found myself wishing that him or any of the rest of the cast would get off my screen.

https://i.imgur.com/PRr1viD.png

However, if I had to pick my favorite protagonist across the entire franchise it is without question Jack Garland. No nonsense, to the point, and behaves like a realistic human being. I can feel for him because, unlike the scions, he actually suffered some losses along the way and it impacted his state of mind towards the end. His journey was as strange as it was entertaining. It even did time travel in such a way as to not invalidate everyone’s sacrifices for the sake of feels like Endwalker did in Ultima Thule, which must be highlighted as one of the critical failures in this expansion’s storytelling.

https://www.gameinformer.com/sites/d...ck_garland.png

Which of the two scenarios makes for a more compelling story:

Your allies, in order to overcome the nebulous power of “despair” sacrifice themselves (while telling you not to bring them back, foreshadowing that they will be brought back) to create pathways through a zone where various aliens are experiencing different states of sad and one that for some reason was written to talk about the heat death of the universe. You then have a magical moment where another of your friends appears, scoffs at the supposed benevolent goddess figure of the game for playing a practical joke on him, and brings everyone back in a field of magical flowers. This all happens within the span of an hour.

Or,

Your allies, in order to quicken the power of Chaos in the main protagonist, throw themselves at you in a battle against your will. Fully understanding that their sacrifice is a necessary one in order to wrest control of the world back from the malevolent forces that would trap it in a perpetual time loop, you are forced to cut down each one by one. Memories of your journey together flash back as you land each final blow. In the aftermath of the battle, now truly alone and overwhelmed with emotion you proceed alone to the final dungeon and confrontation, where you rebel against the enemy and shatter their grip on the world. This takes place over several hours, but in the aftermath of the final battle your friends do re-appear now transformed into fiendish states with their human appearances only visible to yourself. Their sacrifice is partially undone, though it does have some permanent consequences.

One of these is a story that is more targeted at adults than the other. It isn’t unreasonable to expect the series to be in-line with the growth of the playerbase. Those of us who were teenagers in ARR are in our 20s now and would like to be respected more when it comes to the story. We can handle “tales of loss, fire, and faith” that include the deaths of our allies, or, their revival coupled with some permanent consequences for both themselves and the overall state of the world.

Thankfully FFXVI seems to acknowledge this factor and is poised to deliver a protagonist who is fuelled by a vendetta like Estinien was, and is set to be no stranger to loss on his journey. Individuals like Clive or Heavensward-era Estinien are much better messengers for Endwalker’s ill-chosen theme of “forging ahead” no matter what. I can accept when a hardened warrior who has lost so much adopts this mentality of stifling their own grief in order to continue fighting, or to draw power from those they have lost in order to forcefully push forward and see their journey to its end.

https://i.imgur.com/jbYFLkT.jpg

I cannot take this message seriously however when it is delivered by mouthpieces such as Y’shtola (and her infinite fakeouts), the twins (who are unironically setting the Source on a path to another Dead Ends with how they’ve conquered most of the known world), G’raha Tia (whose inappropriate behavior has washed out his previous character development), and Urianger (who should’ve gotten himself a new girlfriend by now). Thancred, if only he had acted more realistically like a father and not an unemotional side character perhaps could have believably delivered this message as well, but both he and Estinien were severely underused in Endwalker so it again wouldn’t have worked out.

To this day I struggle to comprehend why, if the Final Fantasy series as a whole is set to be at risk of fading away from being a household staple, the decision was made to release Endwalker’s story the way it played out while FFXVI is set to be vastly different. A mature, high tension story compared to...the numerous things that Endwalker has been compared to without the need for me to repeat it all here. Combine this with that recent beginner's video series and I have to wonder why there are so many clearly conflicting visions as to what this game is supposed to be and who it's supposed to target.

Which game would you rather play? The one marketed by the picture of Clive above, or this one?

https://i.imgur.com/WSgfm45.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

To this day I struggle to comprehend why, if the Final Fantasy series as a whole is set to be at risk of fading away from being a household staple

---

I would make the argument that the FF name is pretty obscure to most people outside of Japan and even the ones in Japan more or less think of it as "that old person game series" lol
FF is in the middle of an identity crisis and the direction XIV is going, Strangers of Paradise/XVI, FF phone games, ect. seems like their CEOs are just throwing everything at the wall and is seeing what sticks. Perhaps FF should leave the room for new IPs to shine. God knows I can stomach remasters/re-releases for only so long, doubly so when modern SE's ethics department rewrites and changes models from older games so they can rehash it. :/

I think a large part of the problem is how much time passed between each new main entry. A fair few of them are before my time but...Final Fantasy games went from releasing every one or two years to having a lengthy delay between each new entry.

Honestly, it's shocking how little beyond "You just want more death!" some of the more vocal defenders of Endwalker can muster as a defense of it. There's literally so much in the way of consequences that can and should have been suffered by some of the characters, and it's baked into the plot. It just gets ignored, for.... reasons, I guess? Y'shtola blinding herself and draining her life-force to see, Thancred's aether deficiency that hasn't seemed to hamstring his combat capabilities in the slightest etc. Thancred GNB's like the WoL GNB's, except one has full control of their aether and the other does not. What gives? You don't even have to kill Y'shtola, I would have been satisfied with a tense, stressful mini-character arc where her aether-sight finally starts showing it's price and we the WoL have to scramble to do this insane quest to acquire the rare and exotic ingredients to concoct the alchemical poultice that would see her saved. But alas, the Great and Powerful Yoshida hath declared that not only shalt no Scion ever perish neither shalt they ever find themselves imperiled in the slightest of degrees. A pity, and a narrative sin in my humble opinion but then I'm not in charge of the plot. ;3

6.2 has been out for over 10 days and I still haven't managed to find the motivation to do MSQ. I haven't unlocked the new trial yet. But at least I've made the effort of not skipping any cutscene so far.

You would have never seen me say this during Shadowbringers. If I recall correctly, 5.1 was the only 5.x MSQ I didn't devour on release day. But here we are.

Of course, what I did devour on release day was the only story worth caring about, Pandaemonium, and as evidenced by the thread I've made, I have zero regrets about that. Whoever wrote Pandaemonium actually respects the Ancients, and damn it feels good. Inject more Unsundered respect straight into my veins, and Athena, too, of course, because in this house we stan a QUEEN.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raoabolic

I would make the argument that the FF name is pretty obscure to most people outside of Japan and even the ones in Japan more or less think of it as "that old person game series" lol
FF is in the middle of an identity crisis and the direction XIV is going, Strangers of Paradise/XVI, FF phone games, ect. seems like their CEOs are just throwing everything at the wall and is seeing what sticks. Perhaps FF should leave the room for new IPs to shine. God knows I can stomach remasters/re-releases for only so long, doubly so when modern SE's ethics department rewrites and changes models from older games so they can rehash it. :/

---

This made me realize how much of a millenial thing FF really is… as we post on a BBcode message board. Those new fangled social media with their newsfeed algorithm… the only algorithm I need is a good old "BUMP" post. (shakes cane at clouds)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

I think a large part of the problem is how much time passed between each new main entry. A fair few of them are before my time but...Final Fantasy games went from releasing every one or two years to having a lengthy delay between each new entry.

---

I think some of this is just natural due to the size of staff needed to make a game these days. I remember back in the days of the Atari, C64, Amiga, etc. you'd have entire games done by only 2 or 3 people. Now, the technology involved is complex enough that it just takes a lot more time and a lot more people to develop and program a game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Teraq

6.2 has been out for over 10 days and I still haven't managed to find the motivation to do MSQ. I haven't unlocked the new trial yet. But at least I've made the effort of not skipping any cutscene so far.

You would have never seen me say this during Shadowbringers. If I recall correctly, 5.1 was the only 5.x MSQ I didn't devour on release day. But here we are.

---

Your not missing much to be honest, I think 6.2 might be the most unengaged I have ever been with a 14 story part

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Teraq

6.2 has been out for over 10 days and I still haven't managed to find the motivation to do MSQ

---

I haven't even finished the 6.1 MSQ let alone the new released stuff. For everyone building up Natsuko Ishikawa like she was the second coming of a story telling god she sure came up with a whole lot of cliche "friendship triumphs over all" and indestructible plot armor. Don't get me wrong there were some really good moments but they're immediately erased by:

-Zodiark, the supposed yin to Hydaelyn's yang gets nuked in literally the first trial of the expansion and Zenos is just like "haha whatever later nerds"
-How about the laughably bad cutscene in RAH when the final days begin and the WoL just stands there and watches that guy getting eaten like they couldn't have closed the gap in a split second and eradicated that thing with a flick of their wrist.
-Y'shtola being 90000 times more insufferable than she already had been
-Everyone sacrifices themselves on Ultima Thule and you think to yourself "FINALLY they're raising the stakes" haha nope just kidding nobody dies because POWER OF FRIENDSHIP CONQUERS ALL AM I RIGHT GUYS? It's the finale of a story where you're stopping the end of the god damn world and every single one of them has L9999 plot armor. It's like none of it mattered in the end because it's just another cliche happily ever after story so why should I care about what happens next? Where do you go when you've stopped the end of existence?

It's such amateur Disney level storytelling from the same person responsible for Shadowbringers and I found myself immediately going into the 6.1 MSQ saying "I don't care about any of this". It almost feels like to me 6.0 was FF14 running off a cliff in regards to lots of aspects of the game not just in the story but look at the housing fiasco and the balance issues and everything else. Island Sancts are a joke, they spent 5 months on a housing lottery no one bothered to internally test for 5 minutes to make sure the tickets drew correctly and then it took another 3 months on top of it to be fixed.

What happened?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Your not missing much to be honest, I think 6.2 might be the most unengaged I have ever been with a 14 story part

---

I mean ....

outside of potential hydealyn shenanigans from her crystal with Zero

I don't think theres a whole lot that was particularily underwhelming. at least in so far as the starting point for what we do in the 13th and its story being largely brought in 6.X patches.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

outside of potential hydealyn shenanigans from her crystal with Zero

---

The first time I've ever skipped a cutscene on purpose was the second I saw that crystal. Canonically my WoL never accepted it and my headcannon is that that Y'Shtola stuffed it in my bag when I wasn't looking so I put it to the only decent use I saw to (hopefully) be rid of it. Regaining that little bit of control over my character felt great tbh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by underl0gic

I haven't even finished the 6.1 MSQ let alone the new released stuff. For everyone building up Natsuko Ishikawa like she was the second coming of a story telling god she sure came up with a whole lot of cliche "friendship triumphs over all" and indestructible plot armor. Don't get me wrong there were some really good moments but they're immediately erased by:


It's such amateur Disney level storytelling from the same person responsible for Shadowbringers and I found myself immediately going into the 6.1 MSQ saying "I don't care about any of this". It almost feels like to me 6.0 was FF14 running off a cliff in regards to lots of aspects of the game not just in the story but look at the housing fiasco and the balance issues and everything else. Island Sancts are a joke, they spent 5 months on a housing lottery no one bothered to internally test for 5 minutes to make sure the tickets drew correctly and then it took another 3 months on top of it to be fixed.

What happened?

---

It's been really odd, Endwalker copies so much from what worked well when they did it in Shadowbringers and then seem to show they had no idea what made it work. My feeling has been that with Endwalker they tried to pick themes and concepts they had seen work elsewhere (like the despair and nihilism) and copy them but with out them having a firm understanding of how they work

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

It's been really odd, Endwalker copies so much from what worked well when they did it in Shadowbringers and then seem to show they had no idea what made it work. My feeling has been that with Endwalker they tried to pick themes and concepts they had seen work elsewhere (like the despair and nihilism) and copy them but with out them having a firm understanding of how they work

---

The Dead Ends dungeon is a perfect representation of this IMO. In surface, it has a lot of the same qualities as Amaurot. Cool music and visuals, an impressive walk through the death of a civilization narrated by the main villain.
Except in Amaurot, everything made sense. It was the culmination of years of storytelling and showed us a crucial event which kickstarted the entire plot of the game.
Dead Ends feels a bit random in comparison. I'm still not sure why Meteion decided to narrate this to us (we had a special connection with Emet-Selch and he wanted us to know where he came from. Meteion's reasoning is much weaker here.), and most of the things we saw here are completely inconsequential to the overall narrative. The event which gave birth to Hydaelyn and Zodiark + The Sundering vs ... some random civilizations Meteion hinted at once in a scene but have barely anything to do with the plot beyond ham-fisted symbolism. It's like Shadowbringers but without the substance.
It just feels like they just copied Amaurot because it was a well-received dungeon instead of trying to make something more fitting.

It was Meteion trying to break us into despair, I believe. "All these worlds failed, were destroyed by themselves, what makes you think your world will be any different? What makes you think that your planet is any different from the rest of the ones that tried?" In essence, that's what she was trying to get across with the dungeon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazhar

The Dead Ends dungeon is a perfect representation of this IMO. In surface, it has a lot of the same qualities as Amaurot. Cool music and visuals, an impressive walk through the death of a civilization narrated by the main villain.
Except in Amaurot, everything made sense. It was the culmination of years of storytelling and showed us a crucial event which kickstarted the entire plot of the game.
Dead Ends feels a bit random in comparison. I'm still not sure why Meteion decided to narrate this to us (we had a special connection with Emet-Selch and he wanted us to know where he came from. Meteion's reasoning is much weaker here.), and most of the things we saw here are completely inconsequential to the overall narrative. The event which gave birth to Hydaelyn and Zodiark + The Sundering vs ... some random civilizations Meteion hinted at once in a scene but have barely anything to do with the plot beyond ham-fisted symbolism. It's like Shadowbringers but without the substance.
It just feels like they just copied Amaurot because it was a well-received dungeon instead of trying to make something more fitting.

---

Yeah that was the main one in my head when I said that, Amaurot was an amazing dungeon seeing the place we had just been walking round go through that was moving and Emets narration was really strong. The Dead Ends just repeated Thule and the narration didn't really add much and the places we see don't have much impact as they are so throw away and honestly they're not as grim as Amarout felt as they were just not well delivered.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It was Meteion trying to break us into despair, I believe. "All these worlds failed, were destroyed by themselves, what makes you think your world will be any different? What makes you think that your planet is any different from the rest of the ones that tried?" In essence, that's what she was trying to get across with the dungeon.

---

I get that that was the message, but it rang really hollow for me. The whole time I was thinking, "of course people die, and civilizations end, does that make life not worth living?" And honestly the whole expansion was just constant "oh woe is us, life sucks". good lord, I get it, I went through depression too, but 30 hours of cutscenes just repeating the same message starts to drain on you. What's insane is that in the end, it took us just beating the shit out of a silly bird to knock some sense into her. It was just ridiculous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It was Meteion trying to break us into despair, I believe. "All these worlds failed, were destroyed by themselves, what makes you think your world will be any different? What makes you think that your planet is any different from the rest of the ones that tried?" In essence, that's what she was trying to get across with the dungeon.

---

I get that the game explained the reason why we go there at some point, but what narrative sense did it make? You could probably cut the Dead Ends section entirely and not lose anything storywise (it retreads a lot of what was already shown in Ultima Thule). But it'd be much harder to argue the same for Amaurot.

It's a shame that they didn't marshal those (or other) resources into actually depicting the Sundering and surrounding events, rather than parcelling it off to crossover content or largely remarking on it in the Q&A.

I also kind of wish that the Zodiark trial was less about trying to battle the primal, and more to do with the souls in him empowering the MC and friends to banish the parasite Fandaniel from him, maybe aetherically extinguishing him for good so we could be spared of his sanctimonious presence later on in Aitiascope to give way for something more interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It was Meteion trying to break us into despair, I believe. "All these worlds failed, were destroyed by themselves, what makes you think your world will be any different? What makes you think that your planet is any different from the rest of the ones that tried?" In essence, that's what she was trying to get across with the dungeon.

---

If the scions were present they would’ve just went, “not us, we’re super special” and Meteion showing us this really wouldn’t be any different than the zone itself.
I get that it’s suppose to show worlds suffering from things like diseases, war, and such but kinda little hard to take their message seriously when we have characters like the scions brushing them off without much deep reflection.

I also get the impression that Endwalker was trying to recapture what made Shadowbringers successful without really understanding what gave it the 'soul' for lack of a better term. Whether people agreed with Emet-Selch or not his motives were completely understandable for the position he found himself in and hold up under scrutiny. Nobody is really left confused as to why he did what he did. The same isn't really applicable to Venat and although there's certainly people who throw their support behind her I doubt they'd accept humanity in our world being subjected to what she put everyone through within FFXIV itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

I also get the impression that Endwalker was trying to recapture what made Shadowbringers successful without really understanding what gave it the 'soul' for lack of a better term.(...)

---

I have a feeling SE never knew exactly what good they did. They feel completely lost to me, disconnected from their players, to the point that every part of this expansion is very superfluous. The impression it gives me is exactly this: "we are going to try to repeat our success, but what did we do to have that success?"

And now they start pushing nostalgia, I still wonder what was the reason for the appearance of the Magus Sisters, as they are there or not is completely insignificant. I'm feeling the same impression from these new characters (Golbez, and company). Seriously I've never played other FFs before, and the feeling I have is that if you exchange Magus Sisters, Golbez, the 4 talking chairs, for completely new characters, it kind of doesn't matter, so if it's meant to be like this, why pull old characters if not for the simple reason of appealing to nostalgia and begging for that to be enough?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adamantini

And now they start pushing nostalgia

---

They've been pushing nostalgia and old FF characters since ARR, this isn't something that's suddenly happening now. Ultros, Gilgamesh, Yojimbo, Cloud of Darkness, Cait Sith, Diabolos, Anima, every single boss from Omega's raid, and a number of the FFXII cast have all been pulled right out of their FF games, appearance and sometimes even personalities intact. The 5 original races are pulled directly out of FFXI with the serial numbers scratched off. Viera are directly from FFTA/FFXII with the same exact lore per the creator of the Viera, and Hrothgar can be made to look exactly like the Ronso (with back problems) from FFX. Gunbreaker uses FFVIII gunblades specifically because Yoshi-P thinks that Garlean gunblades that are just swords that shoot bullets aren't cool.

The Magus Sisters in XIV are primal summons, which like every other primal summon in the game, have a presence in other FF games as summons or enemies and look nearly exactly the same each time. Even the Garlean Empire is heavily based on the Gestahl Empire, and a bunch of magitek comes straight from FFVI with the same appearance.

Yoshi-P specifically said before ARR was released that the game was going to be a "Final Fantasy theme park", so this isn't a surprise and it's a part of the DNA of the game as fanservice for players of the series as a whole.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

They've been pushing nostalgia and old FF characters since ARR, this isn't something that's suddenly happening now. Ultros, Gilgamesh, Yojimbo, Cloud of Darkness, Cait Sith, Diabolos, Anima, every single boss from Omega's raid, and a number of the FFXII cast have all been pulled right out of their FF games, appearance and sometimes even personalities intact. The 5 original races are pulled directly out of FFXI with the serial numbers scratched off. Viera are directly from FFTA/FFXII with the same exact lore per the creator of the Viera, and Hrothgar can be made to look exactly like the Ronso (with back problems) from FFX. Gunbreaker uses FFVIII gunblades specifically because Yoshi-P thinks that Garlean gunblades that are just swords that shoot bullets aren't cool.

The Magus Sisters in XIV are primal summons, which like every other primal summon in the game, have a presence in other FF games as summons or enemies and look nearly exactly the same each time. Even the Garlean Empire is heavily based on the Gestahl Empire, and a bunch of magitek comes straight from FFVI with the same appearance.

Yoshi-P specifically said before ARR was released that the game was going to be a "Final Fantasy theme park", so this isn't a surprise and it's a part of the DNA of the game as fanservice for players of the series as a whole.

---

the difference was that before I felt that there was a reason for these characters to be there, and what I feel today is more an appeal to nostalgia. As I said, what was the full involvement of the Magus? Okay they are primals, so what? They barely appear, they're gone so that you can't even remember that they ever existed. I don't doubt that the same thing will happen with these 4 bootlickers from Golbez, where in a few months we won't even remember they existed anymore

As for how often this happens, I can't say, because for me they're all new characters, since I haven't played any games

Edit: What I mean is that I'm seeing very often people see some beloved character from some other FF, and they get a lot of hype about it. My friend himself was excited about the Magus, he told me they were his favorite characters. At the end of the dungeon he himself was left with the taste of "is that it?"

As soon as the new patch came out, it didn't take long for posts to appear from people saying that Golbez's lords were killed quickly and rushed.

To me who've never seen them before, they look like just any NPC without deep development. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adamantini

the difference was that before I felt that there was a reason for these characters to be there, and what I feel today is more an appeal to nostalgia. As I said, what was the full involvement of the Magus? Okay they are primals, so what? They barely appear, they're gone so that you can't even remember that they ever existed. I don't doubt that the same thing will happen with these 4 bootlickers from Golbez, where in a few months we won't even remember they existed anymore

As for how often this happens, I can't say, because for me they're all new characters, since I haven't played any games

---

It's actually really really common. You can list almost anything in this game, and it will have links to previous titles. The Legatus/Tribunus armor is pretty much a variant of the FF12 Judge armor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adamantini

What I mean is that I'm seeing very often people see some beloved character from some other FF, and they get a lot of hype about it. My friend himself was excited about the Magus, he told me they were his favorite characters. At the end of the dungeon he himself was left with the taste of "is that it?"

As soon as the new patch came out, it didn't take long for posts to appear from people saying that Golbez's lords were killed quickly and rushed.

To me who've never seen them before, they look like just any NPC without deep development. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

---

You could say the same thing about Calca, Brina, and Fenrir, who are also past FF characters that ended up just being dungeon bosses with no explanation. Unlike the Magus Sisters, who actually got a bit of lore and lead-up, these ones had nothing. Just because it's your friend's favorite doesn't mean they're owed a giant swath of story to concentrate directly on them. The Magus Sisters got about the same initial exposure as Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, Leviathan, Bismark, and Ramuh. A lead-up where we know they're there and given some background, and then we fight them. The first 3 show up again for Ultima Weapon and Titan once more after that but that's it unless you count re-imaginings in Eden or SMN abilities.

Odin was a source of evil that gave his powers to the 3 main enemies of the OG MSQ and 2 separate expansions in FFXI, but in FFXIV he's just a special fate and a trial in a side quest, neither of which get much involved in the actual story.


Golbez and his archfiends are being introduced and dying fast because they're being presented in post-expansion patch content that isn't meant to go beyond patch 6.5. We only have 3 patches left of MSQ to finish the current void storyline and then set up 7.0 so they can't exactly dwell on the archfiends. It's probably going to go 6.3 = Cagnazzo & Rubicante, 6.4 = Golbez, 6.5 = whatever surprise Yoshi-P says we won't predict that will lead us into 7.0.

Well, in this case then, I take back what I said about the new characters. As explained to me, it seems that it is already a very old problem, and I barely knew that Fenrir, for example, was something in some other game in the franchise. I got carried away by the recent complaints I've seen, not just from my friend, but on the forum as well.

Stop throwing away notable Final Fantasy characters for forgettable boss fights or passing references. Make some new characters and get creative.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Stop throwing away notable Final Fantasy characters for forgettable boss fights or passing references. Make some new characters and get creative.

---

With the notable exception of Ravana, Nidhogg, Titania, Innocence, Zodiark, Hydaelyn and Endsinger every single major boss in the series has been a reference to another game. So it's unlikely they'll ever stop, people just love their crossovers and references.
And for the most part I don't mind either since most of the references were throwaway boss characters in the first place. Nobody will say that FFVII Hades and FFVII Knights of the Round were more compelling than the ones we got in FFXIV.
What I do take issue is when they take established characters who had their own stories like Golbez and copy paste them entirely into the MSQ. I think it's a step too far and I'm not even saying this as someone who liked FFIV.

They did Anima dirty. Nothing quite like seeing an attack that used to routinely break the damage limit in FFX hitting 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.... 0! Because there's a scholar in the party.

We see it a lot, lots of build up for... very little pay-off. I spent most of the period before EW incredibly excited to see Anima again as it was without a doubt the coolest FFX summon (sorry bahamut). Then you do the Tower of Babil and it's like oh... ok. Then you teleport to the moon in an instant and the plot starts falling apart faster than a house of cards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazhar

What I do take issue is when they take established characters who had their own stories like Golbez and copy paste them entirely into the MSQ. I think it's a step too far and I'm not even saying this as someone who liked FFIV.

---

Considering Golbez is probably only going to be relevant as a villain in less than a handful of patches, I think it’s fine.

He has a different story and motivations than his original counterpart (so far as we know), and the plot doesn’t even concentrate on him as much as it does the original character Zero. It wouldn’t have made it that much better if we had the same character with a different name and minions and the community probably got more out of him from nostalgia and trying to figure out who he was before his name drop than he otherwise would have received as a minor villain in the grand scheme of things.


Zodiark and Nidhogg aren’t original characters either. Zodiark was a summon in FF Tactics and in FFXII he was a dark-aligned god whose power was limited by light-aligned powers who were fearful of him, just like in FFXIV. Nidhogg was an HNM (sort of like a world boss) giant dragon from FFXI. Killing him even got you the same title in FFXIV as killing him in FFXI did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Zodiark and Nidhogg aren’t original characters either. Zodiark was a summon in FF Tactics and in FFXII he was a dark-aligned god whose power was limited by light-aligned powers who were fearful of him, just like in FFXIV. Nidhogg was an HNM (sort of like a world boss) giant dragon from FFXI. Killing him even got you the same title in FFXIV as killing him in FFXI did.

---

I hesitated before I mentionned Zodiark since he's visually so distinct from his FFXII counterpart, but with the Ascians being very obscure FFXII references it's indeed likely the similarities are intentional. I didn't know that Nidhogg was used elsewhere in the franchise though.

Quote:

---

Considering Golbez is probably only going to be relevant as a villain in less than a handful of patches, I think it’s fine.

---

With Endwalker being the FFIV expansion, it's probably the case. It's still more than I would have liked for a MSQ villain. Kuja is my favorite villain in the franchise but I can't imagine myself being satisfied if they just reused him in a completely different game. I'd rather have them create a similar character if that's the archetype they need.
I don't know why I feel as such? I'm not overly found of crossovers for similar reasons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adamantini

the difference was that before I felt that there was a reason for these characters to be there, and what I feel today is more an appeal to nostalgia. As I said, what was the full involvement of the Magus? Okay they are primals, so what? They barely appear, they're gone so that you can't even remember that they ever existed. I don't doubt that the same thing will happen with these 4 bootlickers from Golbez, where in a few months we won't even remember they existed anymore

As for how often this happens, I can't say, because for me they're all new characters, since I haven't played any games

Edit: What I mean is that I'm seeing very often people see some beloved character from some other FF, and they get a lot of hype about it. My friend himself was excited about the Magus, he told me they were his favorite characters. At the end of the dungeon he himself was left with the taste of "is that it?"

As soon as the new patch came out, it didn't take long for posts to appear from people saying that Golbez's lords were killed quickly and rushed.

To me who've never seen them before, they look like just any NPC without deep development. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

---

It's called bad fanservice at this point. SE pooped the bed when it came to the Dissida IP and it's starting to feel like XIV is going to fill in that role. :/

Golbez is one of my favourite characters in the franchise of a whole. I was under the impressive that fanservice was meant to serve...fans. I want more than a character being lifted from another game and existing to be beaten up by this game's ragtag band of samey, overly preachy protagonists. I hope the game has him accomplish something of note and does not neglect the simple fact that his counterpart was given a redemption story and ended up not being an outright villain...

It's just a shame that so many original characters and regions to FFXIV have been neglected or scrapped unceremoniously. Including some of the bigger ones built up for years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Golbez is one of my favourite characters in the franchise of a whole. I was under the impressive that fanservice was meant to serve...fans. I want more than a character being lifted from another game and existing to be beaten up by this game's ragtag band of samey, overly preachy protagonists. I hope the game has him accomplish something of note and does not neglect the simple fact that his counterpart was given a redemption story and ended up not being an outright villain...

It's ajust a shame that so many original characters and regions to FFXIV have been neglected or scrapped unceremoniously. Including some of the bigger ones built up for years.

---

Gabranth is one of my favorite villains in the series and he had his own redemption as well and he was completely lifted from FFXII and placed in Bozja but I don’t have a problem with it. Some people I’ve been talking to are fans of FFIV and were ecstatic to see Golbez.

Everyone is going to have their own opinion, but considering Yoshi-P has been up front about crossovers for the past 10 years, I wouldn’t take it as a surprise when they appear and are slightly different from their source. This is just the type of game this is and always has been.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Golbez is one of my favourite characters in the franchise of a whole. I was under the impressive that fanservice was meant to serve...fans. I want more than a character being lifted from another game and existing to be beaten up by this game's ragtag band of samey, overly preachy protagonists. I hope the game has him accomplish something of note and does not neglect the simple fact that his counterpart was given a redemption story and ended up not being an outright villain...

It's just a shame that so many original characters and regions to FFXIV have been neglected or scrapped unceremoniously. Including some of the bigger ones built up for years.

---

Part of the reason why Golbez works as an antagonist is his accomplishments as you've mentioned -

My introduction to this character in the 3d version that I played before the 2d ones was him marching in, sweeping aside the party with a wave of his hand and abducting the protagonist's girlfriend with an elemental crystal in tow.

Instead so far we've killed 2 fiends quite easily and Golbez is still being vague about his plans, and doesn't seem to be doing much of anything. This is achieving the total opposite effect and people who haven't played FFIV don't have a lot of reasons to be interested in him. If I hadn't played that game, I wouldn't either.

For Golbez to be anywhere near as effective as he was in FFIV in this game they have to take off the safety lock and set him loose. Have him kill Y'shtola permanently for her latest act of using forbidden magic against him. Have him humble and humiliate both Vrtra and Estinien in terms of martial prowess. Render him immune to Zero's instafix solution for Voidsent killing and force the protagonist faction to become stronger to defeat him.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gJllC9DBGEc/maxresdefault.jpg

His eventual redemption at the end of FFIV and his later arc in the After Years solidified him as one of my favorite characters in the Franchise, I just hope that whenever we take off this Golbez's armor that it isn't the 13th's Zenos staring back at us.

https://lparchive.org/Final-Fantasy-...n_in_Black.jpg

They want to push so much "don't you love your little brother?" messaging in this game, how about we get an older brother whose infinitely more tolerable than the likes of Vrtra and Alphinaud? Because Estinien sure doesn't seem to fit that role anymore, and apart from everyone's interactions with Zero the cast is void of any meaningful chemistry at the moment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I get that that was the message, but it rang really hollow for me. The whole time I was thinking, "of course people die, and civilizations end, does that make life not worth living?" And honestly the whole expansion was just constant "oh woe is us, life sucks". good lord, I get it, I went through depression too, but 30 hours of cutscenes just repeating the same message starts to drain on you. What's insane is that in the end, it took us just beating the shit out of a silly bird to knock some sense into her. It was just ridiculous.

---

You know the expansion sucks when ZENOS provides the most profound and understandable rationale for dealing with life's travails and travesties.

Zenos: "Life sucks, and then you die. But regardless, you have to find your own reason for living and fuck everyone else."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Gabranth is one of my favorite villains in the series and he had his own redemption as well and he was completely lifted from FFXII and placed in Bozja but I don’t have a problem with it. Some people I’ve been talking to are fans of FFIV and were ecstatic to see Golbez.

Everyone is going to have their own opinion, but considering Yoshi-P has been up front about crossovers for the past 10 years, I wouldn’t take it as a surprise when they appear and are slightly different from their source. This is just the type of game this is and always has been.

---

Okay. I'm gonna be honest with you. If Square shits the bed with Golbez in XIV (it's too early to tell definitively, but it's certainly looking that way so far with two Archfiends dead in a single patch), then those who you talked to aren't true fans of IV. Considering Golbez' characterization and story in the game he's from, any so called fan who liked he showed up in XIV but was ultimately disrespected and done nothing with is either a lame fan only interested in the superficial, or no fan at all of IV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Gabranth is one of my favorite villains in the series and he had his own redemption as well and he was completely lifted from FFXII and placed in Bozja but I don’t have a problem with it. Some people I’ve been talking to are fans of FFIV and were ecstatic to see Golbez.

Everyone is going to have their own opinion, but considering Yoshi-P has been up front about crossovers for the past 10 years, I wouldn’t take it as a surprise when they appear and are slightly different from their source. This is just the type of game this is and always has been.

---

...and if those 'slight differences' somehow lead to things being straight up black and white morality, I'll be bored. I care about nuance. I've been pushing for more stuff like FFXII over the years not only because that and Gabranth was my favourite aspect of the overall franchise. Unfortunately things didn't play out as intended and Matsuno wasn't able to finish the Bozja storyline in the manner that he desired, though at least we got a compromise through the field notes so it wasn't left without any resolution whatsoever.

I also think there's mixed messaging. His excuse for no Ultimecia back during Eden's final was something along the lines of it being 'FFXIV and not FFVIII'. It seems very pick and choose as to when fan service is embraced and even then it's usually directed at whoever is the loudest.

I have a sneaking suspicion Golbez will end up being a Well-Intentioned Extremist, and what he does will in fact have some positive outcome in the making for the 13th, but in return will cause a lot of problems for the Source and the rest of the shards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

...and if those 'slight differences' somehow lead to things being straight up black and white morality, I'll be bored. I care about nuance. I've been pushing for more stuff like FFXII over the years not only because that and Gabranth was my favourite aspect of the overall franchise. Unfortunately things didn't play out as intended and Matsuno wasn't able to finish the Bozja storyline in the manner that he desired, though at least we got a compromise through the field notes so it wasn't left without any resolution whatsoever.

I also think there's mixed messaging. His excuse for no Ultimecia back during Eden's final was something along the lines of it being 'FFXIV and not FFVIII'. It seems very pick and choose as to when fan service is embraced and even then it's usually directed at whoever is the loudest.

---

As I said above, seems FFXIV only panders to those interested in the superficial. Personally, I'd prefer if they borrowed more from the narrative of the games they're referencing. I'm weary of yet more "Oh, look! Here's Kefka, isn't he great?!" with no substance. It's lazy, trite and getting real fucking old.

I never saw the throwbacks in XIV as more than bait for "I clapped when I saw it" effect personally.
Even if they reference their stories, it either feels gratuitous nostalgia pandering or an excuse to rehash entire plots so they only need to fit them in the XIV mold...

So I'd say I'm in the camp who'd rather they tried to be more original more often instead of copying the homework from past games for stories. Well, at least if they're not going to borrow anything that is WORTH borrowing like more gameplay depth and less MCU style writing.