Yoshi P talks about Warriors- from Producer Letter Live @ TGS

No, just no.
A WAR will NEVER do equal or more DPS than an "actual DPS classes". There is a difference between having an higher DPS than a random crappy DPS and being higher than the same job played by someone who's using his skills.
Yeah, I got 170 dps as a WAR on Livia one time, while a +1 DRG got 140. Does this mean a WAR has more DPS than a DRG ? No, just that a shitload of DPS are awefull, that's all.

WAR is fine for easy content like CM yeah, but for everything challenging, PLD is a better option, you cannot deny it.
Even for AK PLD > WAR. A PLD can still "speed run" a huge portion of last floor, ever tried as a WAR ?

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Originally Posted by Kaalan

No, just no.
A WAR will NEVER do equal or more DPS than an "actual DPS classes".

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Originally Posted by Kaalan

Yeah, I got 170 dps as a WAR on Livia one time, while a +1 DRG got 140.

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That...I don't....even....wut?

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Originally Posted by Lhun

I don't mean to lead anyone astray, I just think the "current state of warrior" isn't as bad as people think it is.

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The current state of WAR is that they do not provide any substantial advantage over a PLD while bringing with them numerous substantial disadvantages. Many people interpret this as "omg, WAR is useless", which is untrue, and likely what you're referring to. It's a case of hyperbole.

WAR and PLD have equivalent damage and enmity generation, both ST and AoE; WAR with perma-Wrath V requires 8.7% more healing over time and brings ~100 hp/GCD in self healing (2k every 24 GCDs from IB; 600 over 12 GCD every 36 GCDs from Bloodbath), causing WAR to be require explicitly more external healing when incoming damage exceeds 1150 damage per GCD, which occurs in effectively all 8 man content; and WAR has an explicitly inferior CD suite from a mitigation standpoint, thanks to poor effective contributions (Self heals are factored into mean mitigation for effective performance and WAR CDs that do scale are *significantly* weaker than those of PLD).

Quantifying how bad a WAR is compared to a PLD, holistically, is somewhat difficult, but, for a rough estimate, I would say that a WAR is roughly 90% as effective as a PLD, pretty much entirely due to the additional strain on healers.

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Originally Posted by Kaalan

There is a difference between having an higher DPS than a random crappy DPS and being higher than the same job played by someone who's using his skills.

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QFT. I love the parse comparison logic where the parse of an incompetent person is compared to the parse of a competent person. It's like cherry picking your data points from a study to prove your hypothesis: anyone that knows anything will laugh your conclusions into oblivion.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

That...I don't....even....wut?

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Great job on quoting everything BUT the point of my message. You should work in the media if you're not already doing it, you have a great future.

This is starting to get depressing. I've failed Titan hard mode through DF so many times that I've lost count; I'm as geared as I can reasonably be, I can tank it (or I can DPS it while a PLD tanks it), and I can dodge all the attacks. I just keep on failing because people can't dodge attacks. That's what's really depressing about this. I can't do anything else to help the runs succeed.

The other depressing thing is that because of the stigma surrounding warrior, no one really wants one. Pre-made groups already have their one tank and are just looking for DPS. Shout groups don't have any confidence in a WAR so they don't join up. I can't even get my WAR into linkshell groups because they only run with PLDs and only want DPS to fill the slots. I can't find an established FC to join that's already doing Titan, so I'm helping a FC gear up through Garuda and whatnot, but it's very depressing being stuck on a fight for so long that I can't improve the odds of success at.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

This is starting to get depressing. I've failed Titan hard mode through DF so many times that I've lost count; I'm as geared as I can reasonably be, I can tank it (or I can DPS it while a PLD tanks it), and I can dodge all the attacks. I just keep on failing because people can't dodge attacks. That's what's really depressing about this. I can't do anything else to help the runs succeed.

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That's not your fault though. A tank in full Allagan gear and +1 relic (PLD or WAR) can't carry a Titan victory if the rest of the group still fails :\

And to address your "stigma" issue, I agree with this to a point, and it is unsettling. Unfortunately I can only suggest you keep looking. I personally know plenty of players who welcome warriors to their group. Some friends of mine on turn 4 farm Titan with a War DPS.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

That's not your fault though. A tank in full Allagan gear and +1 relic (PLD or WAR) can't carry a Titan victory if the rest of the group still fails :\

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True enough, but statistically, the odds of success are much higher when organized in a group outside the duty finder where people are willing to work for a common goal and stick with it until they get the clear. The absolute worst about this, apart from this being a one tank fight (which, the way the community is running it—and I can't blame them for that—a one tank setup halves the amount of tanks actually clearing the fight) and everyone already having a PLD, is that people will just flat out ignore me because I'm a WAR. It wouldn't be nearly as depressing if there were some acknowledgement there like "sorry, we already have a tank" or "sorry, we need DPS and healers." No, it's just no response, every single time.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

True enough, but statistically, the odds of success are much higher when organized in a group outside the duty finder where people are willing to work for a common goal and stick with it until they get the clear. The absolute worst about this, apart from this being a one tank fight (which, the way the community is running it—and I can't blame them for that—a one tank setup halves the amount of tanks actually clearing the fight) and everyone already having a PLD, is that people will just flat out ignore me because I'm a WAR. It wouldn't be nearly as depressing if there were some acknowledgement there like "sorry, we already have a tank" or "sorry, we need DPS and healers." No, it's just no response, every single time.

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If you intend to be the tank in that fight then I would suggest you be the one organizing your party. That's what I had to do.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

If you intend to be the tank in that fight then I would suggest you be the one organizing your party. That's what I had to do.

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Been trying. You wouldn't believe the "what, no PLD?" responses though.

That's the reason why a lot of WAR are buying Titan carry.
If we could do it as PLD and still got the quest item... but nop.

Relic'd PLD and WAR here. We are currently in turn 4 of coil and honestly I never switch to WAR anymore. To add insult to injury a full darklight WAR with relic wont even hit the ACC hard cap without food. Yaaa skillspeed on relic!

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

Because there are some things they do better than PLD. People keep saying it's a myth WAR does more dmg than PLD, yet there are parses out there showing WARs dealing equal if not more dmg than actual DPS classes, you just have to change your gear and playstyle. They are more versatile, for encounters you only need 1 tank for they can DPS and pick up the boss if the PLD dies, much easier than any other DPS could. I'm not saying it's impossible to hold AoE threat as a PLD, far from it, but it's definitely easier for a WAR. Just like it's not impossible for a WAR to maintank, it's just easier for a PLD.

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You're the one in the nerf thread that thought WARs get 40% more hp than a PLD.

Wars may have some benefit if you dig into it (although save AoE threat generation it's pretty hidden). But I'm gonna just go ahead and say that you have literally no idea what you're talking about whatsoever so you should probably stop posting.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

Because there are some things they do better than PLD. People keep saying it's a myth WAR does more dmg than PLD, yet there are parses out there showing WARs dealing equal if not more dmg than actual DPS classes

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This is so stupid.

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Originally Posted by Kexual

Here is what Yoshi had to say about Warriors, as translated by Reinhart:



Does this mean that Yoshi is telling us buffs are on the way, or Warrior is shining with the content that's coming? I'm not sure.

You can find the translation of the rest of the letter at:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...ntW_O2vWI/edit

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Notice how he says marauder not warrior I been speculating about mrd for a bit at 50+ in raids.... Beefy high burst aoe with decent sustained single target dps that can in a pinch pick up an add if need be.
Look at what mrd can pull from vs what war can pull from pretty sure mrd can put out some decent damage with fairly high survivablity.

Well...with Marauder you could possibly turn it into something of a make shift DPS, but that means allocating everything into strength, wearing entirely different gear, scale armor probably, and not using a Warrior cryal at all so you can get

Straight Shots
Furious strikes
Venom bite
Hawk's eye

Those are the ones you'd get if you were a marauder, since you'd have accest to internal release and second wind regardless if you were Warrior or Marauder.

Even then you lose your ability to tank anything properly because you would not have the health nor defensive capabilities a properly specced Warrior possesses

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Well...with Marauder you could possibly turn it into something of a make shift DPS, but that means allocating everything into strength, wearing entirely different gear, scale armor probably, and not using a Warrior cryal at all so you can get

Straight Shots
Furious strikes
Venom bite
Hawk's eye

Those are the ones you'd get if you were a marauder, since you'd have accest to internal release and second wind regardless if you were Warrior or Marauder.

Even then you lose your ability to tank anything properly because you would not have the health nor defensive capabilities a properly specced Warrior possesses

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you also get blood for blood and ect... the ability to boost mrd burst might be enough to have it along.... unless War gets ton more defensive stuff all your losing is some agro generation and hp idk most plp are poo pooing none job at lvl 50 w/o ever even tring them out with access to 10 cross class abilities who knows what one could pull off.

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Originally Posted by Solduios

you also get blood for blood and ect... the ability to boost mrd burst might be enough to have it along.... unless War gets ton more defensive stuff all your losing is some agro generation and hp idk most plp are poo pooing none job at lvl 50 w/o ever even tring them out with access to 10 cross class abilities who knows what one could pull off.

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There's no point in going MRD. You lose Bravura. You lose 10 Vit / Str / Dex. You lose your increased healing / 25% bonus hp from Defiance.

Either way you're tied to tank armor unless you go all the way back to ilvl55/60 gear which will be of questionable viability in coil.

It would maybe be worthwhile for DPS if you had the Allagan Greataxe. But before that you may as well just drop defiance and stay as a WAR.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

There's no point in going MRD. You lose Bravura. You lose 10 Vit / Str / Dex. You lose your increased healing / 25% bonus hp from Defiance.

Either way you're tied to tank armor unless you go all the way back to ilvl55/60 gear which will be of questionable viability in coil.

It would maybe be worthwhile for DPS if you had the Allagan Greataxe. But before that you may as well just drop defiance and stay as a WAR.

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True but as we see with Darklight gear I am assuming their will be sets like that but higher iLvl Same with axes it is too early to tell yet how it will pan out but according to the devs they wanted to make it so you can not be a Job and still be viable. I am lvling mrd right now cause it interest me and I wanna test some theory crafting.

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Originally Posted by Solduios

True but as we see with Darklight gear I am assuming their will be sets like that but higher iLvl Same with axes it is too early to tell yet how it will pan out but according to the devs they wanted to make it so you can not be a Job and still be viable. I am lvling mrd right now cause it interest me and I wanna test some theory crafting.

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I believe with some experimentations mrd may put out some decent (albeit only decent) dps, but as far as tanking is concerned, i believe war is the way to go. In fact, until you hit lvl 35 (for inner beast) or even 38 (for storm's path) you won't even get to taste the full mechanics of war tanking (although it is also true that the community is still debating as to how exactly war should tank, but it definitely has go to do with playing with wraths).

that said, a few cross class dps abilities won't put us anywhere near pure dps classes. i played whm first so i didn't notice it, but as i am playing tanks all over again, the speed at which mob hp goes down when you have a competent drg or mnk is unbelievable. it is not impossible to dps as mrd, and it will probably be good enough for most content if the party knows what it is doing (i nuked as dps whm before, it was good fun), but if the situation becomes more demanding, having a dedicated dps may be important.

I believe part of the WAR problem is also due to poor end-game itemization. There is very limited amount of high end gear and it mostly favours PLD style tanking, because of the limited pool of stats provided by them (ie. PLD gets all the advantage of parry, with the additional benefit of having a shield). Also because both wear the exact same gear, it highlights the advantages of PLD skillset, which deal in absolutes, while WAR has to depend more on gear... which again statistically favours PLD.

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Originally Posted by konflikti

I believe part of the WAR problem is also due to poor end-game itemization. There is very limited amount of high end gear and it mostly favours PLD style tanking, because of the limited pool of stats provided by them (ie. PLD gets all the advantage of parry, with the additional benefit of having a shield). Also because both wear the exact same gear, it highlights the advantages of PLD skillset, which deal in absolutes, while WAR has to depend more on gear... which again statistically favours PLD.

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The fact that tank gear is for the most part unified is moot. If anything, it removes culpability from gear and places it entirely on the jobs' design. Hence why the "wait until you have crystal tower gear" excuse is flimsy at best.

Hello, im playing WAR since 1.0, the balances in the 2.0 are qiote differents as how it was in past, imho i never had a problem on anything with WAR right now, yes on titan SOMETIMES u get 4.0k (but most of the time is 3.2k)hits but.. u can just save inner beast full buffed and get your hp back, thats what i did:
internal relase> berserk> inner beast> infuriate> inner beast (yes u cant always use those CD ihmo inner beast isnt crap at all)
and geuss, what healer had to use the same amount of mp for a pld they had no problem at all to keep me up and i was only using the HDL armor. iv seen many war "wasting" inner beast when they dont have to like when they are full HP...
so yeah if you come to say that WAR take more dmg than pld. its obvious but at the same time, you can get it back with the proper action u can even add bloodbath on the inner beast it will be something like 150+ more hp

i think right now ppl just complain on WAR because is more technically to use compared to just spam CD on PLD, and probably the healer had bad experiences with bad players. however its just an opinion. im not giving up on WAR i like it how is it

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The fact that tank gear is for the most part unified is moot. If anything, it removes culpability from gear and places it entirely on the jobs' design. Hence why the "wait until you have crystal tower gear" excuse is flimsy at best.

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It is not moot point at all, if PLD is ahead to begin with and then also benefits from the same gear more. Yes, unified gear shows that PLD is superior with same gear as WAR. The biggest disparency imo is that PLD gets the same stats from shield and sword as WAR gets from axe + shield mitigation as bonus for free.

I think you understood me claiming that itemization from CT would fix warrior, but what I am saying is that WAR is the underdog and that having same gear as PLD definately does not help.

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Originally Posted by konflikti

It is not moot point at all, if PLD is ahead to begin with and then also benefits from the same gear more. Yes, unified gear shows that PLD is superior with same gear as WAR. The biggest disparency imo is that PLD gets the same stats from shield and sword as WAR gets from axe + shield mitigation as bonus for free.

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This was more than likely intentional because at the end of the day, a tank roster works when both tanks perform at the same level without decreasing the raid's chances of success. There's obviously an issue if WAR has developed a bit of a stigma due to discrepancies with PLD. As I said, the gear is fine. The source of the problem is WAR's design.

This is also why, despite what some whiners wanted, WAR is not notably superior DPS compared to PLD. If they did that you'd return to FFXIV 1.19 where PLD was garbage and WAR was the end-all-be-all of tanking. Ideally the result of balancing tanks is that the raid can have a PLD and a WAR, two PLDs, or two WARs and still yield the same results without making either set up "easier" or "difficult".

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I think you understood me claiming that itemization from CT would fix warrior, but what I am saying is that WAR is the underdog and that having same gear as PLD definately does not help.

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I'm not accusing you of it, but I'm starting to see that argument popping up. iLvl80 gear from Crystal Tower is not going to undo that mess. If tank gear is unified all it means is the gear props up WAR AND PLD, which brings WAR back to square one.

After reading all 67 pages, All I see are hates and bitterness over PLD. The way I see it, PLD is easier to use. WAR is complicated to master.

and both are good tanks.

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Originally Posted by Yiell

After reading all 67 pages, All I see are hates and bitterness over PLD. The way I see it, PLD is easier to use. WAR is complicated to master.

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If a Warrior is complicated to master, it should therefore be better in the hands of a good, knowledgeable player.
...But it isn't.

You've seen 67 pages of people going into the math behind all of our abilities and we just...don't come out on top. How deeply lodged into the crevasses of my Warrior's anus can this secret to being amazing be that ALL OF US are missing?

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Originally Posted by JormungandrVanagandr

If a Warrior is complicated to master, it should therefore be better in the hands of a good, knowledgeable player.
...But it isn't.

You've seen 67 pages of people going into the math behind all of our abilities and we just...don't come out on top. How deeply lodged into the crevasses of my Warrior's anus can this secret to being amazing be that ALL OF US are missing?

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I don't want to look like an ass but SOMEBODY mastered his class.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...age-mitigation.

And this guy

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Originally Posted by Exrage

*shrug* Warrior tanks just fine, requires persistent research and rotation/macro design catering to each fight but let's do some simple math coupled with some research and apply it to the developers for a second. 8 classes in the game, coincidentally 8 spots in end game content. 2 healers, 6 DPS in the game each catering to very specific tasks/buffs/play styles and this includes 2 tanks. Only 1 can hold aggro, static abilities and stats favor the paladin so the question is where does the warrior stand? We are the Off tank, designed to pick up adds and swap from pseudo tanking to pseudo DPS because, should the paladin die, we have the ability to instantly swap to tank mode and hold aggro long enough for the rez debuff to were off where the paladin uses- surprise- an ability that puts them automatically to top enmity +1 to continue the fight.

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Originally Posted by Yiell

I don't want to look like an ass but SOMEBODY mastered his class.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...age-mitigation.

And this guy

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that thread is not a very good guide and full of misinformation

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Originally Posted by Duelle

This was more than likely intentional because at the end of the day, a tank roster works when both tanks perform at the same level without decreasing the raid's chances of success. There's obviously an issue if WAR has developed a bit of a stigma due to discrepancies with PLD. As I said, the gear is fine. The source of the problem is WAR's design.

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Source of the problem might or might not be WAR design, but currently PLD wearing that gear gets more statistical advantage of the same level of gear (in vacuum, not even considering skills). That means gear is not fine. Despite being unified, it is not equal. PLD has parry and block, WAR only has parry. WAR gets nothing in return for not having block. Not even single point of weapon damage, despite two-handed axe being matched against one-handed sword.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

If tank gear is unified all it means is the gear props up WAR AND PLD, which brings WAR back to square one.

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I don't want unified gear. Unified gear is lazy design. I want choices to build my own character, not follow some dev-decided linear progression, which does not even seem balanced currently.

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Originally Posted by Yiell

I don't want to look like an ass but SOMEBODY mastered his class.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...age-mitigation.

And this guy

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Giantbane covered it before me. That guy thinks using Internal Release generates Wrath, so no, he hasn't "mastered" this class. And yeah, that quote would be fitting if people actually TOOK TWO TANKS into fights with them. Instead I'm stuck standing around Revenant's Toll counting bricks in the wall like the goddamned Rain Man because nobody will take me into a group.

Hell, a lot of people even seem to prefer 2 Paladins anyway. Which leaves me with the option of struggling with a fun class because of the community or switching over to the boring class and drooling my way to victory.

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Originally Posted by Yiell

I don't want to look like an ass but SOMEBODY mastered his class.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...age-mitigation.

And this guy

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That guy hasn't killed Titan HM or stepped foot into Coil, yet you think he's mastered the class? And most of his information is factually incorrect. He thinks Warrior has a higher chance to parry than a Paladin has to block and parry.

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Originally Posted by Yiell

I don't want to look like an ass but SOMEBODY mastered his class.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...age-mitigation.

And this guy

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I sincerely hope you're being sarcastic. Because it's really hard to tell.

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Originally Posted by Yiell

If warrior is under-performing as designed then why devs are not doing anything about it?

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Okay. You're serious. This is just what this board needs.. another fresh faced paladin to tell all warriors that they're doing it wrong.

If warrior is under-performing as designed then why devs are not doing anything about it?

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Originally Posted by Yiell

If warrior is under-performing as designed then why devs are not doing anything about it?

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you may have just stumbled upon the reason for all the WAR posts on the forum...

I'm a good tank, I'm awesome in threat management. come at me bros.

Seriously, Don't be hostile on all PLDs that you see posting in WAR threads. What you want to do is to be heard by the devs in the right way. and just because you have a better gear doesn't mean I'm a noob tank (but still better at tanking because I'm a PLD, sorry just deal with it.), It means I have real life matters to attend to. I can't just play all day you know?

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Originally Posted by Yiell

I'm a good tank, I'm awesome in threat management. come at me bros.

Seriously, Don't be hostile on all PLDs that you see posting in WAR threads. What you want to do is to be heard by the devs in the right way. and just because you have a better gear doesn't mean I'm a noob tank (but still better at tanking because I'm a PLD, sorry just deal with it.), It means I have real life matters to attend to. I can't just play all day you know?

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No one said you didn't know how to tank neither are people hostile at all PLDs nor did we compare gear. And going by what you're saying, you think that the two threads about WAR and your "real life matters, can't play all day" experience means everyone is doing it wrong? Nice try.

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Originally Posted by Yiell

I'm a good tank, I'm awesome in threat management. come at me bros.

Seriously, Don't be hostile on all PLDs that you see posting in WAR threads. What you want to do is to be heard by the devs in the right way. and just because you have a better gear doesn't mean I'm a noob tank (but still better at tanking because I'm a PLD, sorry just deal with it.), It means I have real life matters to attend to. I can't just play all day you know?

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What the hell are you playing the victim for now? You linked a poor example of what a "good" Warrior is supposed to be and got called out on it. Nobody gives a damn that you're a PLD, they care that you don't know what you're talking about. And now you're acting like a New Jersey tool shed about it and think the responses are going to get better?

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Originally Posted by Yiell

I don't want to look like an ass but SOMEBODY mastered his class.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...age-mitigation.

And this guy

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Lhun's a great guy, but he often makes big mistakes in his analysis and most of us disagree with him. Just because someone makes tldr posts doesn't mean he's got it nailed down.