Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

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Originally Posted by Razgard

What do you mean by clip a DoT. Like when it says "Chaos Thrust has no effect"?

Sorry, new to the forums but I always have that happen to me and no clue why.

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There's a section of the guide that explains DoT clipping in detail and methods of avoiding it.

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Originally Posted by Razgard

What do you mean by clip a DoT. Like when it says "Chaos Thrust has no effect"?

Sorry, new to the forums but I always have that happen to me and no clue why.

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Yep, if your previous DoT application had a buff.

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Originally Posted by Mercy Stroke

Love me please!

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I love you, Mercy Stroke, and welcome any buffage that might come your way. Aside from free damage you tell me when a mob is at 20% health.

Now, how do you all think DRG damage will be buffed 10% strictly by reducing recast timers? Jump? Power Surge? Blood for Blood? Maybe there'll be more to it than that. I'd welcome a lower recast on jump and B4B at 60 seconds recast would be nice, same for Power Surge.

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Originally Posted by Arland

So, anybody else laughed at yoshidas answer on the question about dragoon jumps, fuck logic, right?

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I agree with Yoshida's logic. Invincibilities and things that let you ignore mechanics are hard to balance if not every class has them.

For example, if every jump gave you invincibility you could reliably have a jump up for every AoE.

You could potentially jump to avoid lots of otherwise unavoidable raid damage as well.

That is problematic for other classes.

Now as for BLM: they are broken. They are really, really outclassing every other class, and it isn't because of their AoE (which is, ridiculous). Its because of their mechanics.

Don't compare yourself to BLM. I'm always for buffing classes instead of nerfing, but BLM has amazing tools and it is amazing that the developers have not addressed this.

My important question for the day is: With the iLvl of the Allagan Spear going up, will base damage go up? Speculation, but if it gains even 1 dmg and 1 str, will we be scrapping our bis builds or just hanging onto the deliciousness that is Gae Bolg +1?

The critical of Gae Bolg will get turned into determination, but swapping pieces around to make up the lost 37 accuracy would be a pain in the rear. We could drop critical from the allagan face and feet for wyrm gear to make up the accuracy, but to what end? Just skill speed from allagan spear as a secondary stat?

I know, we don't know yet... but I want to speculate on future BiS before it's too late. I'm sure everything will be fine, and I love that we get an auto-critical so I should worry less, but if I need to spend more on wyrm gear. . . I'm putting other spending on pause until I see what the new spear looks like.

Edited for clarity.

Is it possible to gain enough skill speed that you can fit another action in somewhere in the rotation? Crit and Determination always trump Skill Speed because the former 2 affect off-GCDs, but with the Allagan weapons being ilevel 95 and the Allagan Spear giving Skill Speed, maybe stacking Skill Speed would be viable? A small amount of Skill Speed isn't good since it just ends up with clipping DoTs in a normal rotation, but if we stack Skill Speed with the Allagan weapon + myth Wyrm armors set (which would also fix the accuracy deficit), couldn't we change the rotations entirely to something stronger? Like with EasyModeX's HT > IDC > Phl > TTT > HT rotation, a Fracture could be fit in after every Phl or something.

Sure it'd still not be ideal compared to an equal amount of Crit and Determination, and TP for single-targets may actually become a big problem, but it's a possibility I'd think.

You'd need a lot of SS to achieve that.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

My important question for the day is: With the iLvl of the Allagan Spear going up, will base damage go up? Speculation, but if it gains even 1 dmg and 1 str, will we be scrapping our bis builds or just hanging onto the deliciousness that is Gae Bolg +1?

The critical of Gae Bolg will get turned into determination, but swapping pieces around to make up the lost 37 accuracy would be a pain in the rear. We could drop critical from the allagan face and feet for wyrm gear to make up the accuracy,


Edited for clarity.

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I would guess that the allagan spear going from ilvl90 > ilvl95 would gain +1 WSD and maybe 1-3 str making it better regardless.

I would keep the allagan feet in the slot, Swapping the allagan visor for the wyrm helm, and using the maiming earring over the striking would make up for the -37 acc loss.

Not 100% if that is the most optimal but would assume so as will only be losing out on crit.

I am willing to bet they are also going to allow use to +2 our relic weapon at some point with items from the extreme mode primals.

If not I am more then happy to keep on my myth helm over the fugly mask that refuses to drop for me... Just need the lance to drop instead of MNK h2h.

is anyone else starting to be bothered by the fact that most everyone has decided that MNK is far better than DRG as far as melee DPS?

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Originally Posted by matic

is anyone else starting to be bothered by the fact that most everyone has decided that MNK is far better than DRG as far as melee DPS?

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Unfortunately the karate choppers are and will continue to be after the patch. Why they are getting buffs is a mystery.

Well sadly he is... We are running with MNK and DRG and while our DPS isn't that far off i really have to play perfect to keep up with our MNK and even then most of the times he will score better than me. A role that where completely reversed in 1.0 (good times ;_;), plus he has more utility through mantra and silence which makes him more usefull in a raid. Our disembowl is nice, but i think it really only shines when you run with two BRDs.

If DRG and MNK are on the same Level in gear and skill he will most likely score better. Which doesn't mean DRG isn't worth keeping, i for a fact don't run out on TP in a full Twintania fight while our MNK needs to keep an eye out for his TP, and even more in Turn 4 where we run with DRG/MNK/BRD/BLM and MNK needs to AOE.

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We are running with MNK and DRG and while our DPS isn't that far off i really have to play perfect to keep up with our MNK and even then most of the times he will score better than me. Our disembowl is nice, but i think it really only shines when you run with two BRDs.

If DRG and MNK are on the same Level in gear and skill he will most likely score better. Which doesn't mean DRG isn't worth keeping, i for a fact don't run out on TP in a full Twintania fight while our MNK needs to keep an eye out for his TP, and even more in Turn 4 where we run with DRG/MNK/BRD/BLM and MNK needs to AOE.

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Basically that's been my experience too. Its sad that DRG's moment to shine is AoEing trash in t4. I'm starting to feel really dumb for investing all my myths/allagan drops into my DRG instead of my MNK. Maybe i won't mind as much when they fix jumps.

Well only one can be first and there has to be a second and a thrid place in damage... And while there will be always balancing issues in an MMORPG I wouldn't go as far as to regret choosing DRG over MNK in your stead. DRG is still a contributing member of the party and he certainly is a good and fun class to play. So instead of choosing the class that is currently "the best", play the class that is the most fun for you because in 6 month's MNK could be the worst Melee there is due to poor balancing and too much nurfing ^^

Well... Maybe that wouldn't be the best choice if you have trouble finding a group to begin with! But i don't know about that, because i don't have to look for a group. Your chances as a MNK could be better for that purpose i guess. (And even more with the allmighty BRD! lol)

So... PVP

Anyone else thinking about how they are going to drop the thunder on some OP casters/brds when the time comes?

My biggest worries are that we can only get off one positional in the time of a stun... which may be better utilized dropping a dot if they are going to swiftcast sleep you when they get a chance...

Our dmg is almost halved when we can't get those positionals off, a running enemy will leave our melee circle in the time it takes for the animation to activate, our closers have Long cd's...

This is just 1 coffee math but something like
Stun Jump, Dot, Dot, Stun (Fire Jump first if chasing), back combo, Return Jump and LOS... Thats just from what would seem workable as I imagine it all playing out.

Thoughts?

This entire nerf for brd was in all honesty... prolly blanketing the fact that it was actually nerfed in preparation for pvp, hence why they are going through with it. You guys realize this, right?

That was also my take on their nerf, and why we haven't seen adjustments to BLM's dmg or mana regen mechanics.

I'm pretty sure Yoshi-p has said before PvP abilities =/= PvE abilities and that they will be changed for the different styles of play.

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Originally Posted by Arland

Well... Maybe that wouldn't be the best choice if you have trouble finding a group to begin with! But i don't know about that, because i don't have to look for a group. Your chances as a MNK could be better for that purpose i guess. (And even more with the allmighty BRD! lol)

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I don't have any problem finding a group, i have a static coil group with t1-4 on farm. I just hate that i'm not contributing as much as i could be. And that i fell for the old "loldrg" trick two MMOs in a row. Doesn't really matter because getting monk geared up will take weeks at this point, just sticking it out.


As for pvp, i have a bard for that. Melee is going to be sadface a lot of the time in wolves den.

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Originally Posted by Ronzeru

This entire nerf for brd was in all honesty... prolly blanketing the fact that it was actually nerfed in preparation for pvp, hence why they are going through with it. You guys realize this, right?

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no, bard was nerfed because a million people cried that it was OP in PvE. Then they got to coil and realized that its primarily a support class, and hence spends most of its time under dmg debuff, but it was too late.

Taking away one of its dmg buffs will in no way affect the way that it will long range kite/faceroll over melee classes.

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Originally Posted by matic

. . . and hence spends most of its time under dmg debuff, but it was too late. . .

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(Relatively) Small portions of some fights is not "most of its time"

t4 and t5 its debuffed enough for it to be far behind other dps. argue semantics all you want, bard is not a top dps in coil.

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Originally Posted by matic

bard is not a top dps in coil.

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Never argued that they were, but that isn't what you said, nor what I amended.

This is also not a thread for talking about bard nerfs, use one of the other 90 bard nerf threads for that. So let's get back onto the sexiness that is dragoon.

On point, ranged classes in PvP don't scare me, if we all keep our same abilities, I have DfD/LS and SsD to catch the annoying squishies, and I bet kill them before they're unstunned.

Hi guys, I figured the best place to ask this question would be here, so uhh first time posting but here goes. I've been reading this for a while. [disclaimer end]

My FC is currently on T4 of coil, and im basically trying to min/max my rotation to fully utilize HQ str potion effectiveness on the dreadnoughts.

Here's what I'm currently using, was wondering if anybody could think of anything better or point out if i am doing something that is not optimal.

Pheno --> HT --> Blood for Blood ---> Impulse Drive --> Internal Release --> Disembowl --> HQ Potion (STR) --> Chaos Thrust --> TT --> Power Surge--> VT --> Auto Crit CD (forgot the name) --> FT --> Jump

with this setup if i execute perfectly i get a fraction of a second on the HT buff left when i finish. Either way, thanks again.

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

Pheno --> HT --> Blood for Blood ---> Impulse Drive --> Internal Release --> Disembowl --> HQ Potion (STR) --> Chaos Thrust --> TT --> Power Surge--> VT --> Auto Crit CD (forgot the name) --> FT --> Jump

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First:
HT --> Ph (Ph is one of our highest non combo potency skills, why not let it profit from HT's 10% dmg buff?)

Second:
Drinking your HQ Potion in between a combo cancels said combo. So you drop your combo after applying disembowl debuff, unable to appy the chaos thrust DoT + you lose the extra potency from comboing. Very bad move!

I normally use HT --> Pheno like you said, but that way I wont have HT up for the power surged potioned Jump(which if it crits can do more damage than my FT).

but wow i never noticed it cancelling the combo, definitely gonna change it for that, thanks.

[EDIT]

Maybe I should try something like this:

Pheno --> HT --> Blood for Blood ---> Impulse Drive --> Internal Release --> Disembowl --> Power Surge --> Chaos Thrust --> HQ Potion --> Jump --> TT --> VT --> Auto Crit CD --> FT -->

yeah the potion thing is pretty lame. Also don't forget to throw leg sweep in between gcds. i like Mercy stroke in t4 also, if you have it.

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

I normally use HT --> Pheno like you said, but that way I wont have HT up for the power surged potioned Jump(which if it crits can do more damage than my FT).

but wow i never noticed it cancelling the combo, definitely gonna change it for that, thanks.

[EDIT]

Maybe I should try something like this:

Pheno --> HT --> Blood for Blood ---> Impulse Drive --> Internal Release --> Disembowl --> Power Surge --> Chaos Thrust --> HQ Potion --> Jump --> TT --> VT --> Auto Crit CD --> FT -->

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Ummm HT will be up all the way to at least the VT and even the FT depending on skill speed/game lag (ht falls of timer, but FT was used before it dropped off thus counting as a buffed FT)

As far as rotation, nothing wrong with the ol tried and true

HT - BFB - ID - IR - DIS - SWEEP - CT - PS - phlebotomize - JUMP - TT - SPINE DIVE - VT - life surge - FT - DRAGON DIVE

Not sure how long potions last as I've never really had to use one, but perhaps at the beginning? Any who this burst opener (credit to easymode!) Usually parses 330+ and even hit 380ish with a lucky string of crits

Bumping.

(Was having a hard time looking for this helpful guide, so might as well bump it)

my Rotation and the problems I'm running into.

So I'm running the simple rotation like so

CD 2.46

HT-{BfB}-Fr-{IR}-Ph-ID-Dis-CT-{Sweep}-TT-{PS}-VT-{LS}-FT-HT-Fr-Ph-TT-VT-{Sweep}-FT-ID-Dis-{DfD or SSD}-CT-HT-Fr-Ph-TT-{Sweep}-VT-FT-TT-VT-FT

The Problem I run into with this rotation occurs around the first refresh of CT. one of two things happen.
A:you don't use a filler such as DfD or SSD and the DoT won't refresh due to the previous DoT being buffed
B:you use the filler and occasional the HT buff is so close together with the CT DoT that by the time CT has reapplied HT has fallen off

parsing on the striking dummy with my current gear the dps feels lower then it should be averaging in the 250's - 260 range
a full DL/+1 monk can parse in the area of 280 which just makes me want to slam my head against the desk.

Pho>ID combo> HT>b4b+ internal>TT> powersurge>VT>Life surge> FT>jump>TT combo> dragondive>HT>pho>ID

This one is pretty good you get 2 TT combo with full buff effect+1k jump damage and around 560-890 dragondive.

i did some testing, and looks like life surge will make Dragonfire Dive crits on every target it hits, so for AoE damage you can use this to bump your dps

That's good to know :O.

What kind of DPS do you guys pull on T5? I've been spending a lot of time in there recently and I seem top out around 275.

I've been using Easy's/Ayvar's "FR-less" rotation for the most part (HT-ID-Dis-CT-Ph-TT-VT-FT-HT-TT-VT-FT-Ph-ID-Dis-CT-HT-TT-VT-FT-Ph-TT-VT-FT), but I'm starting to think that including FR might be a better choice.

My reason being is that when switching from Twin to the conflags, FR dot would still be ticking.

Is this the typical range for a DRG in T5? You can see my gear/stats here: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...racter/2404936

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Originally Posted by Kismet

My reason being is that when switching from Twin to the conflags, FR dot would still be ticking.

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That's not a legitimate reason to use FR. Your FR would still be ticking for tiny damage, after you take a direct damage penalty (depending on the last attack prior).

Analysis:

1. Going into a conflag, you shouldn't be optimizing DPS on twintania. You should be setting up for the conflag / I don't care how good your group's dps is and how slow the conflag is, you should do good so your group can swap back to T asap.

2. Setting up for a conflag involves a HT on Twint and ID on Twint, transitioning to the Disembowel immediately on the conflag. There's no room for FR here.

3. All that said, assuming you are one GCD behind the HT mentioned above, you are presented with a choice: "what should my last GCD on Twintania be before I prep for the conflag?".

Your options (DE-adjusted):

TT: 165p
VT: 220p
FT: 330p
ID: 198p
DE: 242p
CT: 176+200p (376)p
PH: 187+120p (307)p
PH-3: 187+60p (247)p
FR: 110+120 (230)p

Just skimming across the numbers, FR is less effective to use than FT/DE/CT/PH and DamnNearEven to VT. In VT's case, it's likely worth finishing the combo through FT and then prepping for conflag.

Note on PH-3: that is Phlebotomize when you clip 3 ticks of it (6.01-8.99 seconds left on the debuff).

So, if you were about to use 5 out of 7 of your regular rotation's attacks, they are better. If you were about to use a TT or ID before prepping for conflag, then FR is better. Depending on the time left on PH (<9s, and whether it was buffed or not so you can actually clip successfully), you may be able to throw in an out-of-cycle PH instead.


Edit: For early wipes in T5 I'm in the 300 range because I AOE spam the dragons.

Edit: I looked at your lodestone profile and you could probably improve your DPS if you chugged a fantasia potion and switched to anything else besides a Lalafell.

Just sayin'.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Edit: I looked at your lodestone profile and you could probably improve your DPS if you chugged a fantasia potion and switched to anything else besides a Lalafell.

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But then I couldn't make fun of my raid for being out dps'd by a Lalafell DRG!

Thanks for the detailed analysis Easy. I usually do refresh my HT and have a DE ready for the conflag. It seems any gain from FR would be minimum, and the conditions that have to be met probably don't merit using it at all. I'll probably continue NOT using it for simplicity sake.

If you hover around 300 while spamming AoE, I'm going to assume ~275 is okay through the conflag phase. Thanks again for the reply and all the other work you've done number crunching for us DRGs!

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Originally Posted by Maxin_Rudy

i did some testing, and looks like life surge will make Dragonfire Dive crits on every target it hits, so for AoE damage you can use this to bump your dps

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Are you sure man, I've tried doing this before and I noticed that not all enemies were crit, can anybody else verify this?

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Originally Posted by Sir_Maxwell

Ummm HT will be up all the way to at least the VT and even the FT depending on skill speed/game lag (ht falls of timer, but FT was used before it dropped off thus counting as a buffed FT)

As far as rotation, nothing wrong with the ol tried and true

HT - BFB - ID - IR - DIS - SWEEP - CT - PS - phlebotomize - JUMP - TT - SPINE DIVE - VT - life surge - FT - DRAGON DIVE

Not sure how long potions last as I've never really had to use one, but perhaps at the beginning? Any who this burst opener (credit to easymode!) Usually parses 330+ and even hit 380ish with a lucky string of crits

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Yeah I like that combo. Just gonna test it out and try to see where the best place to put the HQ potion of str would be. [My Guess at the moment is right before Jump]

my goal in this was to ensure that BFB, HQ potion of STR, HT buff, and IR was up still for my power surged jump and TT-VT-FT combo as both crit for well over 1000. Thanks =)

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

Are you sure man, I've tried doing this before and I noticed that not all enemies were crit, can anybody else verify this?

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i mainly tested in WP, in pulls with 5 mobs, and it crited on all mobs. did not done this a lot, a think it was 3~4 times, it could be luck

Should I really include Jump skills in my usual DPS rotation?