The great streamer Asmongold is joining FFXIV

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Sneep

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It's your last post, so I won't push further and respect your decision not to continue the discussion save for this.

There was plenty of emotional pull, it just wasn't from the Scions. This expansion turned what was otherwise mustache-twirling blackguards into mildly sympathetic characters. There's no way to condone genocide, of course, but it made you understand what they were trying to accomplish. They want to save their world the same way the WoL did. This isn't my point, though, this is in response to yours regarding emotional pull.

As for Y'shtola being plucked from the Lifestream a second time, I would've sworn they addressed why she didn't have any adverse effects that time through dialogue, but I'll have to go and recheck. That's actually a solid point.

The Exarch not truly dying isn't a plothole. Again, they used a well-established plot device from ARR and they've demonstrated that anybody can do it with the right resources. A dark crystal or something similar.

Shadowbringers is still quite dark even without character death--way darker compared to the rest of the expansions. Tesleen's transformation, Vauthry making Kai-Shirr flay himself to feed Sin Eaters, the inhabitants of the slums of Kholusia being fed the previous inhabitants of Eulmore who became Sin Eaters so that Vauthry had a wider range of enthrallment over them over time, the WoL slowly dying through the latter half of the expansion, the WoL and the rest of the Scions actually dying if they didn't go to the First thanks to Urianger's vision. These are just a few examples.

Lastly, in regards to the Exarch, you are quite literally his favorite superhero. He tells you as much throughout the story and it's not so farfetched that, in what he thought was to be his final moments, he wanted to spend those last few moments with you because he resigned himself to dying. You can call it an annoying fanboy moment, that's fine, but the fact that he went through hell and high water to save you by getting you to the First and then took the time to express how important you are to them is, yeah, a soft moment that added a lot to his character development. No one else went through the lengths he did. I'll level with you in that I don't actually mind character death--it does add some interesting new dynamics to a story, but it's not always necessary. Other than that, we'll agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Oh I know the original concept. Still doesn't change the finished product though.

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When did I mention it did? Rofl

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

When did I mention it did? Rofl

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Zanarkand Ronso lives life.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

When did I mention it did? Rofl

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I never said you did? I was just making a statement.

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Originally Posted by Gameovers

Who died in 15? I'm not counting the ending cause.... thats the ending. OOOH That one girl. That's who died. Can we count that? She impacts the story yes.. but as you can see.. I forgot about that.

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Uh yes we can? Her death clearly has the biggest impact on story, so yeah it is important. Why should we not count that just because you don't care?

And why is it matter either if they died in ending or earlier? I really don't get your logic at all. Btw, yes the main character really died if you exclude the novel (which is so heavily retconned and more of a what-if scenario). It is not debatable.

One thing I don't think was mentioned, the 7 Warriors Graha summons at the end of 5.0, it's never stated how "much" of them he summons and from 5.3 we see you can get away with very little, we don't know at what point you go from looking like the Scions to the light shades, so it may not have been as demanding a task for him given how had hard it was for him to get us over fully, and how they're just gone after the fight, it's more likely he just managed a very partial summoning, more akin to 5.3.

As for the actual topic, good for him, I play several MMO's though 14's my main, hope he enjoys himself.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Yes, and many could probably come to the conclusion that the FFXIV community isn't necessarily a "great community". On the surface some might think that it is, due to how ToS enforcement is handled, but this is just people getting banned and/or having a some self-control. One could say it only resembles a "great" community, because players are afraid of getting banned, and instead act passive-aggressively in-game, and show their true colors third-party.

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A great community usually does have a healthy respect for the rule of law. And part of the law's purpose is to be a restraint on people's behavior. That's a good thing as it helps make for a great community.

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Competition with one's self could also be a form of competition in PvE. Improving at the game, and overcoming the odds of whatever piece content they are doing.

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Competition with one's self is not PvP and does not excuse insulting other people.

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Originally Posted by linayar

A great community usually does have a healthy respect for the rule of law. And part of the law's purpose is to be a restraint on people's behavior. That's a good thing as it helps make for a great community.

Competition with one's self is not PvP and does not excuse insulting other people.

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In general, I don't think people being too scared to say their mind, or just preferring to keep what's said behind another's back or third party, is necessarily a hallmark of a "great community". Nor is potential abuse of the report feature, in the hopes of getting others they may not like banned, but I digress.

Did I say competition with one's self was PvP, and excused insulting other people? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Uh yes we can? Her death clearly has the biggest impact on story, so yeah it is important. Why should we not count that just because you don't care?

And why is it matter either if they died in ending or earlier? I really don't get your logic at all. Btw, yes the main character really died if you exclude the novel (which is so heavily retconned and more of a what-if scenario). It is not debatable.

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Cool off first before you attack. I never said I didn't care. I didn't REMEMBER her death. So it didn't impact everyone the same. I forgot she died. Not my fault the game failed on that part for me. Then again 15 wasn't a good game. Horribly flawed imo.

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Originally Posted by ScarboroughFairy

Lastly, in regards to the Exarch, you are quite literally his favorite superhero. He tells you as much throughout the story and it's not so farfetched that, in what he thought was to be his final moments, he wanted to spend those last few moments with you because he resigned himself to dying. You can call it an annoying fanboy moment, that's fine, but the fact that he went through hell and high water to save you by getting you to the First and then took the time to express how important you are to them is, yeah, a soft moment that added a lot to his character development. No one else went through the lengths he did. I'll level with you in that I don't actually mind character death--it does add some interesting new dynamics to a story, but it's not always necessary. Other than that, we'll agree to disagree.[/HB]

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10 characters

I don't think Kizu was referencing his 'last moments' but rather what happened to him afterwards
those last moments WERE really really well done, the cutscene before that as well, "why would you even ask me such a thing?" etc and he goes from that melancholic, 'please take me/my crystal with you on your adventures' to fangirling hard over estinien and others

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Originally Posted by Gameovers

Who died in 15? I'm not counting the ending cause.... thats the ending. OOOH That one girl. That's who died. Can we count that? She impacts the story yes.. but as you can see.. I forgot about that.

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XV was very boring and forgettable in general. lol At least it looked nice but that's about it. The gameplay was just painful.

Ironically despite its flaws 15 is probably one of my favorite games in the series. Great music and scenery.I even enjoyed the story ftmp up until a certain point. It’s a shame the development went the way it did because it easily could’ve rivaled some of the more popular games in the series. Maybe someday we’ll get what was meant to be the original game or at least something close to it.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Ironically despite its flaws 15 is probably one of my favorite games in the series. Great music and scenery.I even enjoyed the story ftmp up until a certain point. It’s a shame the development went the way it did because it easily could’ve rivaled some of the more popular games in the series. Maybe someday we’ll get what was meant to be the original game or at least something close to it.

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Here's hoping 16 will provide that calling.

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Originally Posted by Gameovers

Here's hoping 16 will provide that calling.

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Not a fan personally of the combat they showed but hopefully the story is good.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Not a fan personally of the combat they showed but hopefully the story is good.

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:O don't like the devil may cry system? :O That hurts my soul T.T Why you gotta be so mean?

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Originally Posted by Gameovers

:O don't like the devil may cry system? :O That hurts my soul T.T Why you gotta be so mean?

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Give me Ignis with the DMCv System.
That would be a great game right there

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

In general, I don't think people being too scared to say their mind, or just preferring to keep what's said behind another's back or third party, is necessarily a hallmark of a "great community". Nor is potential abuse of the report feature, in the hopes of getting others they may not like banned, but I digress.

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And I've repeatedly said that's not necessary. That's why I would like it if people would stop telling other people to just be silent in group contents. Say what you need to say, but be civil about it. That's not asking too much.

Potential abuse exists everywhere, so that's irrelevant.

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Did I say competition with one's self was PvP, and excused insulting other people? :confused:

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If it's not PvP, then it has no bearing on other people, so trash talking or insults or anything like that has even less of an excuse to exist.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Um... that doesn’t change the fact we went a literal entire expansion without it. i

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You're looking at it from a purely "the good guys didn't suffer any true consequences" mindset. What you haven't looked at is the fact that we, the player base are effectively wiping out our entire race simply because of the means by which they choose to bring about a return of the time before... all of this s**t-show essentially. To me, the loss of our fellow Convocation members is consequence enough. Whether you view it as such is entirely up to you. And whether or not you agree is inconsequential when you come to understand that everything the Scions do come with some sort of fallout attached to it regardless of whether it's of the magnitude of death, incapacitation or simply the start of a domino effect which brings about greater and greater consequences. The bigger picture can not always be seen but you have to look at the long game here. No good deed goes unpunished...ever.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Give me Ignis with the DMCv System.
That would be a great game right there

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I need this. I kind of did this in Comrades with the Ignis face/hair you can get but its not enough.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

XV was very boring and forgettable in general. lol At least it looked nice but that's about it. The gameplay was just painful.

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Nah, FFXV was fine. It wasn't a bad FF game, but an average one.

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Originally Posted by linayar

And I've repeatedly said that's not necessary. That's why I would like it if people would stop telling other people to just be silent in group contents. Say what you need to say, but be civil about it. That's not asking too much.

Potential abuse exists everywhere, so that's irrelevant.

If it's not PvP, then it has no bearing on other people, so trash talking or insults or anything like that has even less of an excuse to exist.

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Being silent in this game is a sure way to never get banned though. I thought I was being very helpful when I suggest players should refrain from chatting in-game.

When I was saying "I don't see why PvE can't be about competition", that was a separate subject to me. Aside from "trash talk". It was meant in general. In general, competition could be beneficial for PvE based content too, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Being silent in this game is a sure way to never get banned though. I thought I was being very helpful when I suggest players should refrain from chatting in-game.

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I respectfully think that stifles people joining the community and does the opposite of helping unless you're talking to people who you say are being hypocrites and are actually toxic inside. If you're going to be that afraid of being banned, then that's a personal problem that can be resolved and does not have to result in playing the game silently.

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Originally Posted by linayar

I respectfully think that stifles people joining the community and does the opposite of helping unless you're talking to people who you say are being hypocrites and are actually toxic inside. If you're going to be that afraid of being banned, then that's a personal problem that can be resolved and does not have to result in playing the game silently.

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I think there are quite a few people who come from other games and communities - like WoW - who may let something slip that could get them banned. Many in Asmongold's audience even, if what I have read here is true. If they get off easy, and receive a "warning", that's like a permanent mark on their account. More likely, they are going to receive a strike and take a forced vacation, for their first "offense". I've never personally dealt with it in-game, but I've read a lot of the horror stories. Believe it or not, I personally do chat in-game from time to time, most of the time if I'm not chatting it's because I don't want to interact with anyone, rather than a fear of the ToS.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I've never personally dealt with it in-game, but I've read a lot of the horror stories.

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Exactly, and for the most part, that's all they are: horror stories, which can get embellished. And if people are not used to a game with actual rule enforcement, then let them experience it. Look at what happens in this forum when people feel that the mods are not enforcing the rule (whether or not they're right).

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Originally Posted by linayar

I respectfully think that stifles people joining the community and does the opposite of helping unless you're talking to people who you say are being hypocrites and are actually toxic inside. If you're going to be that afraid of being banned, then that's a personal problem that can be resolved and does not have to result in playing the game silently.

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When they updated the TOS, I was terrified of talking in game. I had no reason to, because I'm well behaved, but people on the forums and on reddit kept saying that you could be banned so easily just for chatting or giving help. It was a really bad time... Until I realized that there was no reason to fear something like this if I just behave! The GMs could look at my chat log and they'd see I did nothing wrong. It's a really bad mindset to be in... fearing interacting in an mmo because you might lose your account. I really don't think there are that many people that would report you for nothing just because they didn't like you. And the GM has to review that stuff so the other players really don't have that power. Just don't be mean and offensive I guess, shouldn't be hard.

I think we learned from the "RP venues being bopped" threads that there's usually an untold story behind people getting hit by actions.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Being silent in this game is a sure way to never get banned though. I thought I was being very helpful when I suggest players should refrain from chatting in-game.

When I was saying "I don't see why PvE can't be about competition", that was a separate subject to me. Aside from "trash talk". It was meant in general. In general, competition could be beneficial for PvE based content too, in my opinion.

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Not driving is a foolproof way to never get a traffic ticket as well.

Do you see how that's not a good REASON though?

I don't think it's fair to assume everyone who is banned is necessarily hiding something, or actually is saying "offensive" things. A simple use of a curse word in banter with friends, is a potential hit for "profanity", if reported (yeah yeah, "filter isn't there to allow players to freely curse!" - read it all before). Even "compelling a playstyle", is supposedly ground for a ban, as in telling another player to use AOE instead of "asking". It'd be in players best interest to not take chances, in my opinion. Either that or keep things "PG" - not even "PG-13".

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Not driving is a foolproof way to never get a traffic ticket as well.

Do you see how that's not a good REASON though?

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Or people can learn the rules of the road, and drive the speed limit. I assume many players haven't read the ToS, or realize just how broad the ToS can be enforced. So, as I say, it's better safe than sorry. It's in a player's best interest to keep banter to a minimum (At least on public channels), and keep things PG rated (at worst) if they have to chat.

So you work around those things. Make sure you don't swear. Remember to say "please".

Warn people to not talk if they can't restrain themselves from being rude, rather than as a blanket rule.

The more you talk while following those rules of being polite, the more natural it becomes, just like it seems people can let things slip if they're used to writing in an unfiltered way and not thinking about it.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

So you work around those things. Make sure you don't swear. Remember to say "please".

Warn people to not talk if they can't restrain themselves from being rude, rather than as a blanket rule.

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"Please" isn't really a part of my vocabulary. I am already quite nice in this game, when I need to chat. Though, I don't even greet anybody when I play. :o

I have suggested for probably years by now, if people need to chat, they should keep it "PG" at worst. I am fairly consistent, I think.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The more you talk while following those rules of being polite, the more natural it becomes, just like it seems people can let things slip if they're used to writing in an unfiltered way and not thinking about it.

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Unfortunately, FFXIV filter talk has become a part of how I chat now even in other games. I chat normally though on Discord with people I'm comfortable with. Still, I don't think every new player is going to be conditioned to chat like this. Really, I'm just trying to look out for people.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

"Please" isn't really a part of my vocabulary. I am already quite nice in this game, when I need to chat, though, I don't even greet anybody when I play. :o

I have suggested for probably years by now, if people need to chat, they should keep it "PG" at worst. I am fairly consistent, I think.

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You're literally just talking now about telling people not to chat so they can't get banned.

If you're afraid of saying hello to people in the belief it might go wrong, you're taking it too far.

And "keep it PG" isn't that much of a burden to grasp.

This thread has gone so off topic lol

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Or people can learn the rules of the road, and drive the speed limit. I assume many players haven't read the ToS, or realize just how broad the ToS can be enforced. So, as I say, it's better safe than sorry. It's in a player's best interest to keep banter to a minimum (At least on public channels), and keep things PG rated (at worst) if they have to chat.

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"Banter" yes. Talking at all? No. Technically a cop can pull you over and cite you for whatever they like as long as they can fudge the description later. This happens all the time. Yet we don't recommend not ever getting in a car and driving.

The thing about your "just never talk" suggestion is it doesn't help. It just spreads fear mongering.

The commonality I find whenever we see an actual example of people being "banned for nothing" is that their reactions and interaction even in discussing those situations is nearly always confrontational, hostile, and more often than not peppered with questionable language.


Yeah people with small or coarse vocabularies or short tempers should probably curb their ingame interactions. Everyone else seems to get along fine though.

Telling people to just never talk though? Sounds a bit extreme and buying into the fabricated "SE DOESN'T ALLOW ANY NEGATIVITY" narrative.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

You're literally just talking now about telling people not to chat so they can't get banned.

If you're afraid of saying hello to people in the belief it might go wrong, you're taking it too far.

And "keep it PG" isn't that much of a burden to grasp.

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I think "keep it PG" can be quite a burden for some people, frankly. There are players and even some users here on the forums that may be quite often breaking the ToS/forum guidelines, in my opinion. I'm more surprised they don't get a ban, if anything. For example: Something worded the wrong way, or directed at someone else specifically can actually be a bannable offense, "slander", often times. Chatting something in-game is a permanent chat log associated with your account. Players won't necessarily ALWAYS be lucky, and they won't always escape a potential ban. The best approach is to either not chat, or follow the rules stringently.

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Originally Posted by Vonleo

This thread has gone so off topic lol

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I referenced WoW players and Asmongold's community in relation:

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I think there are quite a few people who come from other games and communities - like WoW - who may let something slip that could get them banned. Many in Asmongold's audience even, if what I have read here is true.

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This discussion, from my perspective, is in relation to potential new players that might come after Asmongold plays/features this game on his channel.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

"Banter" yes. Talking at all? No. Technically a cop can pull you over and cite you for whatever they like as long as they can fudge the description later. This happens all the time. Yet we don't recommend not ever getting in a car and driving.

The thing about your "just never talk" suggestion is it doesn't help. It just spreads fear mongering.

The commonality I find whenever we see an actual example of people being "banned for nothing" is that their reactions and interaction even in discussing those situations is nearly always confrontational, hostile, and more often than not peppered with questionable language.


Yeah people with small or coarse vocabularies or short tempers should probably curb their ingame interactions. Everyone else seems to get along fine though.

Telling people to just never talk though? Sounds a bit extreme and buying into the fabricated "SE DOESN'T ALLOW ANY NEGATIVITY" narrative.

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Yeah, and that's why you get a dash cam, at minimum.

I still think the suggestion for "not chatting" or "keep it PG" is very helpful.

I swear all the time. Just never directed at anyone in particular. The ToS is vague, yes, but read between the lines they don't want you being hostile to other players or being openly risque.

Honestly, I don't know if the GMs are too active or not active enough with how many conflicting stories I hear.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Yeah, and that's why you get a dash cam, at minimum.

I think it the suggestion for "not chatting" or "keep it PG" is very helpful. I don't see why I am getting so much push back, to be honest.

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The point with the cop comparison is that people fearmonger it the same but when if you're a reasonably safe driver and pay attention to your surroundings you can even skirt some rules even though those rules COULD be enforced on next to anything you do. The consequences and potential are there.. but if you minimize your risk factors, in chatting meaning things like swearing or antagonizing people directly, you'll be fine. You just have to pay SOME attention and not hose the rest of the population with your particular brand of "banter".


You're getting pushback because your suggestion is exceedingly restrictive and based on a false fear that if you talk at all you'll get actioned and it's simply not true. There are thousands of examples of this not being true. I have a friend who has a short temper even. Says things I personally would NEVER say to anyone. Says them in Alliance chat as well. not one GM interaction yet, though I keep warning him he should watch it.

"keep it PG" pretty good advice, I'll agree. "Never talk!" ... nah.

I highly suggest not only cataloging the people who say they got actioned for nothing but paying attention to their interactions after the fact. While they'll always have some edge on their responses due to them likely losing access to a game they like, they are usually pretty telling as far as an example of how they interact with people.

Generally about 3-7 replies in they just get nasty.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

The point with the cop comparison is that people fearmonger it the same but when if you're a reasonably safe driver and pay attention to your surroundings you can even skirt some rules even though those rules COULD be enforced on next to anything you do. The consequences and potential are there.. but if you minimize your risk factors, in chatting meaning things like swearing or antagonizing people directly, you'll be fine. You just have to pay SOME attention and not hose the rest of the population with your particular brand of "banter".


You're getting pushback because your suggestion is exceedingly restrictive and based on a false fear that if you talk at all you'll get actioned and it's simply not true. There are thousands of examples of this not being true. I have a friend who has a short temper even. Says things I personally would NEVER say to anyone. Says them in Alliance chat as well. not one GM interaction yet, though I keep warning him he should watch it.

"keep it PG" pretty good advice, I'll agree. "Never talk!" ... nah.

I highly suggest not only cataloging the people who say they got actioned for nothing but paying attention to their interactions after the fact. While they'll always have some edge on their responses due to them likely losing access to a game they like, they are usually pretty telling as far as an example of how they interact with people.

Generally about 3-7 replies in they just get nasty.

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The problem with "skirting the rules", in my opinion, is, all it takes is ONCE for a GM to catch it. That evidence is forever tied to your account/character's chatlogs. All it takes is one person's report. Similarily, when I replied to:

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Technically a cop can pull you over and cite you for whatever they like as long as they can fudge the description later.

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I suggested a dash cam, so if you were following the law and a cop was to do this, you have evidence to the contrary.

Unlike if a cop was not around, there is no real way to "skirt" the rules here. If a GM's attention is brought to your chatlogs, again, they will always be there to access; they would have the evidence. It's like if someone was to get caught on a red light camera.

Your friend is probably just incredibly lucky, but, depending on the severity of their "short temper", it could come back and bite them one day. Suggesting he should watch it, that's good advice.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I still think the suggestion for "not chatting" or "keep it PG" is very helpful.

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Those are two completely different levels of caution, so why are you conflating them?

Anywho...

Think Asmon will have read some or all of this forum, said "forget this!," and decided to return immediately to WoW in light of the sudden announcement of the next patch being only a few days away?

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

The problem with "skirting the rules", in my opinion, is, all it takes is ONCE for a GM to catch it. That evidence is forever tied to your account/character's chatlogs. All it takes is one person's report.

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I really have yet to see anything other than paranoia or hearsay that verifies the "GM's will go through your logs till they find something to catch you on" thing.

Like I can appreciate you're trying to give advice to new people you think is helpful and will keep them out of trouble but it paints the whole game in an oppressive light that just isn't there.