How to Dragoon per Second: A DPS Paradigm

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Originally Posted by Sekundessounet

Well last I checked everyone was bursting the right hand and the SMN stopped multi-DoTing a while ago. Maybe it comes from the Scholar trying to keep both tanks alive ?

Otherwise thanks for the advices everyone :3

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If everyone's bursting the hand and the SMN isn't multi-dotting, then there's no way to say it other than your team needs to get better. There's no excuse for failing that check this late in the patch cycle, to be quite honest.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

If everyone's bursting the hand and the SMN isn't multi-dotting, then there's no way to say it other than your team needs to get better. There's no excuse for failing that check this late in the patch cycle, to be quite honest.

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OKay, we'll try optimizing this for the next session, thanks :D (I'll ask for a stream to have a replay of the tries).

Not DRG related per se, but I've been following this thread as I lvl DRG and just wanted to chime in and say that your SCH should not be healing at all at that point. The WHM/AST should be solo healing up to the end of the add phase, it really isn't very intensive on healing.

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Originally Posted by DarkerOrange

Not DRG related per se, but I've been following this thread as I lvl DRG and just wanted to chime in and say that your SCH should not be healing at all at that point. The WHM/AST should be solo healing up to the end of the add phase, it really isn't very intensive on healing.

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Okay thanks, gonna try optimizing things as much as possible.

EDIT : Just one thing i did not understand very well : SCH/BRD/SMN should stop multi-dotting before the HP transfer, then go multi-dotting after the HP transfer ? While doing single target on the main hand ?

It all depends on the group; I've even seen SCHs get away with Bane in early clears, though ours ended up having to refrain.

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Originally Posted by Sekundessounet

Just one thing i did not understand very well : SCH/BRD/SMN should stop multi-dotting before the HP transfer, then go multi-dotting after the HP transfer ? While doing single target on the main hand ?

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The only time the damage counts is during the Hand of Pain segment. If you're ace with your timing, you can bane to the other hand as soon as it spawns during Wash Away. If you do, your dots will drop off before Hand of Pain. Like, basically...

Equal Concentration cast - when it finishes, one Hand gets more health, one loses some. In the time between Equal Concentration's cast finishing and Hand of Pain's cast starting, you need to bring the two hands within 5% of the hand's max health from each other (which means you should see a difference of 4% or less). AoE is fine, because it won't negatively impact this. The issue with it is that you relegate every AoE skill to 0 effective damage (unless it crits the wrong one, which should never be the difference between a wipe and a kill). Stuff like Geirskogul and Dragonfire Dive do not negatively impact anything - your single-target is still going strong. Stuff like Painflare or Rockbreaker DO impact this, since you trade a single-target skill (Fester or Snap Punch/Demolish) for 0 effective damage.

Make sense?

I'd say "if your group is that close to wiping" but full 210 gear the better solution would be to tell everyone to study up on some fflogs for their Job and learn to play better, because they're obviously doing things wrong if you're failing that check with the SMN NOT multi-dotting and the Dragoon performing a full opener.

OKay thanks ! But the difference is 5% ? We have a 4;x% at some point but still got OS :/

They need to be within 4.4% of each other I believe.

recently i'm feeling frustrated with Drg, i feel that i'm hitting my ceiling, but still not as good as most Drg out there.

gear-wise, my static is still progressing in A4S, so all i got is the terrible relic weapon, my stats are like: Crit 757, Det 484, SS 630.

i usually don't make a lot of mistakes on the rotation, and fully understand everything of why and how should we do on the rotation
but just like the last phase of A1S and A3S, we do need to move a lots for mechanics, and sometimes we just got to hold back some cd after things like movement to the .5, dragging the adds around dodging RNG aoe, boss jumping out of the arena, ferrofluid, protean waves, digititis, or even my jumps are always lining up with the tethers in A4S etc etc

sometimes i wonder if that's bcuz of my static comp, we have a very good MNK, therefore we don't have trick attack, but we do have an excellent MCH, also 9 times out of 10 i would be the one casting melee LB
and tbh i was never the guy that would put my own number in front of the group, if there's moment that i need to sacrifice a bit of my dps in order to make things work, i would do it without thinking
but when talking about pushing my own limit, then i don't know about that, cuz i never reli pushing my limit
also i play on ps4 on controller, and i use legacy camera, standard is reli hard for me to deal with mechanics, and i know that if i use standard camera, i would have at least a 100 more dps which wud put me in the 80-90% tier

but right now im doing 1200 ish in A1S, 1100 ish in A3S, and 1500 ish on faust (nothing for A2S cuz i am the gobdriver)

what else can i do to improve?

if you're using legacy with a controller you should use lock on, so you won't miss auto attacks. It takes some time to get used to turning it off and on for certain situations ( at least it did for me) but auto attacks are important.

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Originally Posted by KidSerge

if you're using legacy with a controller you should use lock on, so you won't miss auto attacks. It takes some time to get used to turning it off and on for certain situations ( at least it did for me) but auto attacks are important.

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yea i used to have R3 as "face target" but i just recently changed it to "lock on" and still practicing this

the thing i hate the most was that during lock on, the screen center around the lock on target, and kinda push my character to the lower bottom of the screen, and my HUD setting have all the shits crowded at the bottom, so the HUD would block a lot of sight for me such as aoe indicators or how far away my character is from the target (cuz in some fight, i tried to stay at max melee range), but bcuz they are blocking my sight, there were several times i actually back out a couple steps away from the max melee range.

does anyone know if there's a way to adjust the lock on camera angle?

That was actually one of my biggest problems with the lock, it was terrible being a lala on top of it lol. There is a way to adjust the camera height, like crtl+shift then up/down on the arrow keys (for pc). But it didn't seem to affect the height while locked on, and I'm not sure if it works on ps3/4 if you're on one of those.

Best way to mitigate that I've found is reduce the size of cross hotbar UI element and shove it down as far as you're comfortable with. Another thing I did was disable the action help text that pops up when you hold L2 or R2 (the one that tells you the ability name). It's somewhere in the settings but I forget exactly where, it's just a check box you uncheck.

There's no true way to fix it that I've found, just a few things to help it not be so bad.

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Originally Posted by PheonixCain

does anyone know if there's a way to adjust the lock on camera angle?

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There isn't, to my knowledge.

I have this video of a run of A3S I did (just p1+2). I play on controller and use lock-on. Maybe it could help you figure out ways to "fix" your hud or somesuch to make it easier. The biggest trick is to zoom ALL the way out. That was also with my old static, where I was at 2 o'clock for Protean...

That aside: using LB is a minor loss, but a loss nonetheless. It usually eats a Geirskogul, which is bad, as well as replacing 1 full combo (which is a LOT of damage). MCH and NIN are approximately even for DPS gains, with NIN beating out MCH by a bit.

What I would do is use the Compare feature of fflogs and figure out what you're doing differently from some other Dragoon you want to emulate. If you find that you're already doing things about the same as them, you can chalk the difference up to gear/party comp/lucky crits/etc.

I mean, I'm still 1550 Faust because I can't for the life of me get a lucky run. Every good Faust run has an insane amount of crits. None of them break 1600-1650 without having stupid high critrate and/or astrologian support.



And at the above from Whiskey - there IS a way to do the camera height thing on PS4. It's in Character Configuration, at the bottom of Control Settings - 3rd Person Camera Settings. I have mine down to 0, but I don't think it changes anything when locked on.


//EDIT: This is what my UI looks like, now. It's been working fine for me, assuming I handle the camera well. I'm stuck under the boss on leg 2, so I need to pull in tighter for that ;-; but I never have issues seeing everything. The big empty space in the bottom right is where my number stuff overlay goes.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

//EDIT: This is what my UI looks like, now. It's been working fine for me, assuming I handle the camera well. I'm stuck under the boss on leg 2, so I need to pull in tighter for that ;-; but I never have issues seeing everything. The big empty space in the bottom right is where my number stuff overlay goes.

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Those cooldown macros tho, a wise person once told me to arrange my keybind/hotbars so I can keep track of my CDs better.
http://puu.sh/nc0eF/e5e7db7695.jpg

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Originally Posted by Orlandeu

Those cooldown macros tho, a wise person once told me to arrange my keybind/hotbars so I can keep track of my CDs better.
http://puu.sh/nc0eF/e5e7db7695.jpg

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I only have 1 macro on those bars. The rest are actual instances of the skills that I don't actually click ever.
The macro is:

/micon "Leg Sweep"
/p Battle Litany <recast.battle litany>
/p Blood for Blood <recast.blood for blood>
/p Leg Sweep 0:13
/p Blood of the Dragon <recast.blood of the dragon>

Each of the names are auto-translate. I usually just use those buffs to hover over and see my timers to decide if I wanna click Yes or not on a ready check.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

I only have 1 macro on those bars. The rest are actual instances of the skills that I don't actually click ever.
The macro is:

/micon "Leg Sweep"
/p Battle Litany <recast.battle litany>
/p Blood for Blood <recast.blood for blood>
/p Leg Sweep 0:13
/p Blood of the Dragon <recast.blood of the dragon>

Each of the names are auto-translate. I usually just use those buffs to hover over and see my timers to decide if I wanna click Yes or not on a ready check.

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yeah thats actually what i meant, just an instance of the CD to keep track of its timer heh, but anyway, i just thought it was cool

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Originally Posted by PheonixCain

what else can i do to improve?

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You're numbers aren't that far off. You cant control your party comp and the fact that other drgs may have Nins, Mch, and Asts feeding them balance cards.

What you can control is how you play. I pour over FFlogs looking at the top drgs and seeing what they do differently and where I can improve. I looked at a few of your logs and noticed a couple things. It looks like you aren't popping B4B on cooldown and may not be maximizing your buffs. For example, my A1S was 15 secs faster and I used B4B 4 times you only used it 3 times. I used Life Surge 5 times, you used it 4. Those are big buffs you're missing out on.

Also look at your Buff uptime... your HT was only up 81% of the time, mine was up close to 90%. These small things can have a profound impact.

A great man once said "Uptime is the strongest buff in the game, period." <Cough> <Cough> Sunny ;)

Hi, I am about to start doing a lot calculations for me and my static. Everything works fine but I stuck at one point. I dont understand how you calculate a DPS-Value for a specific Gear-Set. I tried to calculate the DPS of a whole opener and failed because of thousand possibilities, but I guess I am thinking to complicaded. Do I miss some sort of DPS-Simulator-Tool or a specific formula?

Thank you for your help in advance :)

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Originally Posted by JackFross

//EDIT: This is what my UI looks like, now. It's been working fine for me, assuming I handle the camera well. I'm stuck under the boss on leg 2, so I need to pull in tighter for that ;-; but I never have issues seeing everything. The big empty space in the bottom right is where my number stuff overlay goes.

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thanks a lot, our HUD is very similar btw, guess i am gonna trim down my crossbar a bit

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Best way to mitigate that I've found is reduce the size of cross hotbar UI element and shove it down as far as you're comfortable with.

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agree, that's what i gonna try tonight

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Originally Posted by TheKingSlayer

It looks like you aren't popping B4B on cooldown and may not be maximizing your buffs.

Also look at your Buff uptime... your HT was only up 81% of the time, mine was up close to 90%.

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yeah that's what actually bothering me a lot recently, i hold back the B4B and LS sometimes before boss jump or when i was on adds, and when i realized i shud have enough time to use them, i was too late, bad judgement i think...

i will try to not hold back buffs next time and see how things go

EDIT: in A1S, my 2nd B4B usually comes before .5 shows up, and i tend to just use all the IR/BOTD/jump/spineshatter on the original, hold the B4B and LS, and elusive jump to the .5, then B4B on the .5
but yeah i will do some rework on my cd management there next time

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Originally Posted by Zymeth

Hi, I am about to start doing a lot calculations for me and my static. Everything works fine but I stuck at one point. I dont understand how you calculate a DPS-Value for a specific Gear-Set. I tried to calculate the DPS of a whole opener and failed because of thousand possibilities, but I guess I am thinking to complicaded. Do I miss some sort of DPS-Simulator-Tool or a specific formula?

Thank you for your help in advance :)

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Might help to note that since damage numbers (and critical hits) are random, the best you can accurately do is a Potency per Second estimation (which is what the OP is based on). Anything after that is not based on skill anyway, it's based on gear.

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Originally Posted by PheonixCain

EDIT: in A1S, my 2nd B4B usually comes before .5 shows up, and i tend to just use all the IR/BOTD/jump/spineshatter on the original, hold the B4B and LS, and elusive jump to the .5, then B4B on the .5

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No no no bad.

You absolutely need to hit the second B4B when it comes up. Stay glued to that boss. You'll use it right after your CT combo (before/after Phleb) if you're doing the rotation right. You want to stay on the main oppressor until your B4B falls off and then Elusive to 0.5. Alternatively (what I sometimes will do) you can pop B4B into HT>CT on main > elusive > CT on 0.5 before B4B drops. Either way sorta works, but I think staying on main oppressor and getting your full 9 uninterrupted gcds is better.

This link is from my best parse with my old static (I'm on main oppressor with my new one, I was on 0.5 with my old), taken from where my second B4B starts. You can see how I get my dots up on the main oppressor at the end of B4B (it dies just after CT) before hopping to 0.5.


As for why this is important, though, you need to look at how many B4B casts you're gonna get.

Each full rotation is ~2 minutes long, including the ~30s downtime of the jump. So, after the first jump, you'll only get 1 b4b per jump, period. The second will come back at the bitter end if you use it right at the start, not enough time to get anything out of it.

However, the opening phase (up until jump 1) is ~3 minutes long. 3 minutes is ~180 seconds. If you use B4B at the start and then on cooldown, you'll use it at (approximately) 0, 80, and 160. If you hold it those extra 10-15s, you'll use it at 0, 95, 175. Suddenly the third one either doesn't exist or is super ineffective. As such, you *need* to keep it on cooldown for the pre-jump phase so you can get 3. You'll get 1 per jump from then on anyway. This ensures 4 in 1 jump, 5 in 2 jump, and 6 in 3 jump, rather than 3, 4, and 5. That's a significant change.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

http://puu.sh/naiAJ/ae0ee3afb5.png[/HB]

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That's so pretty. A lot better than mine, tbh.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I'd like to have an unofficial Dragoon companion app :3

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So, a Dragoon chat app, along with gear calculation tools and push notifications would be sick.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

So for anyone who wants to mess around with it, you can check it out here!

It's a .xlsm - macro-enabled excel file. You need to enable macros if you want it to work as best as it can. I'll ofc be updating it for 3.2 and uploading a better version then. This is more like a beta lol.

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Your Excel-Tool is really cool and well made.
Would you reveal me the password to unlock the xlsm to actually see the math behind your DPS calculation, I would love to compare it to my calculations to get a better insight in the formulas. I guess you put a lot effort in it and I would understand if you wont tell me the password because of copyright.

Why did monk get a single target and aoe dps boost... FC mate remarked last night, "monk is selfish dps".

I'd say so.. /confused

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Originally Posted by MiniTyra

So, a Dragoon chat app, along with gear calculation tools and push notifications would be sick.

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And a rotation mini-game to train newbie dragoons >.>

Would be sweet, I don't think it's something I could handle tho. Certainly not alone lol

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Originally Posted by Zymeth

Your Excel-Tool is really cool and well made.
Would you reveal me the password to unlock the xlsm to actually see the math behind your DPS calculation, I would love to compare it to my calculations to get a better insight in the formulas. I guess you put a lot effort in it and I would understand if you wont tell me the password because of copyright.

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The math is all on the front page of this post or on my blog lol

https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/damag...her-mechanics/

Like, it's not hard. Make a spreadsheet with the GCDs and oCDs. Calculate the PPS. Put the PPS in the "Potency" value of the formula. Bam, there's your expected DPS.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

No no no bad.

You absolutely need to hit the second B4B when it comes up. Stay glued to that boss. You'll use it right after your CT combo (before/after Phleb) if you're doing the rotation right. You want to stay on the main oppressor until your B4B falls off and then Elusive to 0.5. Alternatively (what I sometimes will do) you can pop B4B into HT>CT on main > elusive > CT on 0.5 before B4B drops. Either way sorta works, but I think staying on main oppressor and getting your full 9 uninterrupted gcds is better.

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make sense to me, but then the 1.0 and .5 would end up having at least 10% of hp gap, but i guess that's easy to handle, i will definitely try that if i ever have a chance to run A1S (cuz nobody needs loots from A1S and A2S, we are skipping to A3S weekly basic for months now), but maybe not only just A1S, this cud open my mind for what's coming next too, thx :D

btw, i wiped the group several times in A3S last night by using lock on target in some very inappropriate timing lol, but trimming down my crossbar definitely helps me see things a lot more clear during lock on

so no changes to drg, while mnk has HF potency increased and dot time for demolish too. I mean my sub is a mnk, but drg at heart. se y u do dis ;c

I know it sucks when one class gets buffed and yours doesn't but IMO, DRGs are in a very good place right now, so they don't really need buffs.

I'd still be happy if they reduced dragonfire dive's cd, cause we can't do much during mobpulls. While running expert I can only do HT-RoT or DS till tp runs out, and need to time invig at a good point too.

everyone gets something, when Drg gets nothing! NOTHUNG!!

I don't care really, I play monk quite a bit myself. Just find it interesting since nobody was talking about buffing monks.

While we were progressing Manipulator (Savage), my melee buddy (MNK main) went in on NIN with mostly Law gear to see what would happen, and we ended up with similar raid DPS. This was after 3.07. So, he stayed MNK because that fight is Some HP Necessary and is more comfortable with the job, but yeah, that was a very practical demonstration of how far behind a DRG/MNK is compared to DRG/NIN.

I'm kind of surprised there's anyone jealous in this thread. Sure it's not fun to see other classes get new potencies/toys to play with but ... you guys know you're the absolute kings of this expansion, right? Isn't there even a DRG on the cover of HW?

3.2 MNK doesn't have anything on 3.X DRG besides big dick personal DPS, which it has right now anyway. In all probability, no melee will overthrow 3.X DRG's guaranteed party slot until we get to 4.0.

It's not something of being jealous, it's just something that I would find nice to see. But yes you're very right, drg has a guaranteed party slot atm/is needed for overall raid dmg which is more important and nice :D

Literally the only thing I was hoping for was a 10 TP drop for Phlebotomize. :c

Also, I've been messing with the sheet and added a bunch more minor functionality things and simplified/condensed a LOT of my named ranges. @_@

http://tinyurl.com/evejobs1-2-1 - if anyone would like to check it out. I added an extra table beneath with all the gear+stats for a given slot laid out for you.


Oh and re: 10% difference between Opp and 0.5, that's not your problem! That's the ranged dps' problem. Usually it worked fine for my group, but I was also beating the Summoner in that group on A1S, so I dunno exactly how well that'll translate to other groups. They usually had to either drop MCH LB or have the MNK LB his opp to finish.

Slightly confused about the advanced opener
is litany and the pot supposed to buff the 2nd fang/wheeling? Cos mine drops off just before
if so how much SS is needed?

If you use the opener that I tend to use with potions (those first four skills are ordered IR>BL>BotD>B4B rather than BL>B4B>BotD>IR) which is technically better, BL will last through the second 4th hit and B4B through the following HT. With the opener in the first post, BL should fall off before the 4th hit there, but B4B should catch it. Either way, Potion is gonna drop just after the Life Surge > Full Thrust.

Hmm thx for that, i always thought the buffs should be the way round u mentioned but never understood the math enough or had a parser to prove it :p

Drg rotation difficulty and place in line for dps dont add up to me. I literally switched to blm because of it. New patch just confirmed this for me.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Drg rotation difficulty and place in line for dps dont add up to me. I literally switched to blm because of it. New patch just confirmed this for me.

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lol.. 10 char