Speed Runs Suck

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Originally Posted by Nova_Dresden

Actually, what you're describing is why we don't have better players. Mass pulling and "burn baby, burn" creates the bad players, not the good ones.

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Agreed.
What's more, the average trash mob in Heavensward comes with a marked increase in both HP and damage output in comparison to its ARR counterparts: the party should first gauge how much they can handle.

Optimizing strategies and prioritizing hits, especially in a DF environment, sounds like the reasonable way to go -- quality versus quantity. No DPS loss either, since you're simply deploying your firepower in a more efficient fashion.

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Originally Posted by Nova_Dresden

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you could easily flip that around though. If players only ever do ST rotations then they'll "get bad" at AoE. Dungeons are there for you to apply your skills, not learn them.

And people didn't call nerfs on PS for hard trash, they called nerfs on the bosses. People were fine with the trash, and that's the only real example.

You have an idea of "play correctly" that is more of a personal preference. Which is fine, until you start telling other people they're wrong because of it.

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Originally Posted by Nova_Dresden

Actually, what you're describing is why we don't have better players. Mass pulling and "burn baby, burn" creates the bad players, not the good ones. It might help improve a tank on learning threat control and damage mitigation, or a healer on keeping everyone alive. For a DPS however all it does is create AoE happy bad players. And when harder dungeons come out the reason why people cry for nerfs is because they can't mass pull and burn at first. If you train people to burn down 30 things at once instead speed killing smaller groups then you have to break that mindset and get them to play correctly when needed for harder gameplay.

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No and your bad if you think that.
The encounters are so pathetically easy the only challenge can be to min max it 2 seconds faster than your last speed run by improving group dps, and minimizing overhealing / tanking threat waste.
Both of which actually matter in progression raiding too.

The getting it done sooner is just a bonus.

Well I suppose that's the case if all you have to do to beat top end raids is mash your aoe key over and over.

My viewpoint on tanking is this

1. If you are the tank, tank on how many mobs you are comfortable with.
2. If your healers/dps are pulling for you, ask them not to. if they don't listen let them die.
3. If you are only pulling one set at a time as you gear and skill gets better try to do more than one set at a time.
4. If you are losing hate on a consistent basis you may want to examine your enmity rotation.

Tanking is like an eternal game of cat and mouse, the tank holds the hate and the mice try to take it. If the mice keep taking your cheese find ways to improve until they aren't. The cheese is yours screw those mice..

Speed runs are really starting to get on my nerves recently.Getting stupid tanks.Who think because they have mostly i200 gear it's fine to pull 8 mobs with a ninja and monk.Ther's no point to making those kind of pulls with dps set up like that.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

you could easily flip that around though. If players only ever do ST rotations then they'll "get bad" at AoE. Dungeons are there for you to apply your skills, not learn them.

And people didn't call nerfs on PS for hard trash, they called nerfs on the bosses. People were fine with the trash, and that's the only real example.

You have an idea of "play correctly" that is more of a personal preference. Which is fine, until you start telling other people they're wrong because of it.

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I never said "no aoe, just single-target". There is a point where AoE rotations are favorable at a certain number of mobs, but below that single-target rotations are more favorable. That needs to be learned/taught. If every pull is 10+ mobs then all you'll ever see is AoE to the point it seems ludicrous. I'm still baffled with the number of summoners that have one rotation outside of a boss: Tri-Disaster, Bane, Miasma II, Painflare x2, Blizzard II until out of MP or Aetherflow is back up for more Painflare. Then when we're on a boss they're hit-or-miss on how bad they suck.

And Pharos Sirius was never hard. Every boss in that encounter has really one mechanic that the DPS should care about: Kill the adds. Killing adds is something that people just stop doing because they can or they don't do it because the assume the other DPS will or that the tank will hold them. I still have losses on that first boss simply because no one touches the adds and they spawn at % of health instead of being timed. Double summoners on that fight suck so bad because even if they do switch and kill adds the Pets and DoTs are still dragging his health down and spawning more dogs.

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Originally Posted by Staris

No and your bad if you think that.
The encounters are so pathetically easy the only challenge can be to min max it 2 seconds faster than your last speed run by improving group dps, and minimizing overhealing / tanking threat waste.

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Which is an excellent idea if you're in a premade group with people you know. Random is random and watching a tank pull a ton of stuff to kill when I have more HP than the DPS as a healer is just stupid.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Speed runs are really starting to get on my nerves recently.Getting stupid tanks.Who think because they have mostly i200 gear it's fine to pull 8 mobs with a ninja and monk.Ther's no point to making those kind of pulls with dps set up like that.

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Exactly. And speedruns have created another thing I loathe. I hate white mages. If you're a white mage, I'm sorry. I'm sure you're a wonderful charitable person, but deep down inside I still hate you a little bit every time I see that icon on the party list. Because apparently as a tank I'm nothing more than a regen target at pull, then something you Benediction at <20% health until I fall that low again and get a Tetragrammaton in between your Holy/Assize spam. I have never died one time with a SCH or an AST, but it's pretty much a guarantee that I'm going to die with a WHM in the party. Because of that, I pull slow with white mages.

I actually like speed runs, but generally when the party is specifically formed for that purpose. I mean, I am perfectly fine with duty finder speed runs as well, as long as every one in the party is on the same page, but I agree with some players, especially if you are still learning the dungeon/fight, there is a time where the higher geared players need to just chill and take things slowly.

Sometimes doing the dungeon the "slow way" is over all faster than trying to force a speed run with players unfamiliar with the dungeon who are dying because of your insane pulls.

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Originally Posted by Nova_Dresden

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But again, people shouldn't be waiting to learn their job until level 60. Those dungeons are where you apply knowledge, not gain it. If that's where they're learning then dungeon design or speedrunning don't really matter; they've already messed up. And teaching target threshholds doesn't take a roundabout dungeon design. "Hey [person], you're job should aoe at 3+ mobs, otherwise, st." Boom, done. It's now taught.

And yeah PS wasn't that hard, but it's the only example of what you were talking about, and doesn't match up with what you were saying.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

But again, people shouldn't be waiting to learn their job until level 60. Those dungeons are where you apply knowledge, not gain it. If that's where they're learning then dungeon design or speedrunning don't really matter; they've already messed up. And teaching target threshholds doesn't take a roundabout dungeon design. "Hey [person], you're job should aoe at 3+ mobs, otherwise, st." Boom, done. It's now taught.

And yeah PS wasn't that hard, but it's the only example of what you were talking about, and doesn't match up with what you were saying.

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No, they learn their job through 60 levels of speedrunning every dungeon they get because we've seen them a thousand times and are sick of them and are not waiting around for them. Then they hit 60 and are expected to know everything when no one took the time to actually tell them what to do in the process. Speedrunning creates bad players, not good ones. It can improve good players, but it doesn't take a bad player and make them better.

And Lost City is a better example. For a good week I had every tank under the sun pull EVERYTHING up to that first spore stalk and die seconds later expecting it to all go down like stuff in Wanderers Palace.