With Apologies to Sena Bryer

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Originally Posted by Nebelheim

I usually go by just calling people man or woman also but I was mostly referencing Sena's tweets by her calling people by "cis" when going on her rants.

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Ah that makes sense. I really don't understand why some people really need to use the term "cis" for just normal men and women. For trans I can understand since they are outside the norm, but there is no need for normal genders.

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Originally Posted by usagilove

Ah that makes sense. I really don't understand why some people really need to use the term "cis" for just normal men and women. For trans I can understand since they are outside the norm, but there is no need for normal genders.

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I don't understand having to use cis for a term either but it seems to be a thing for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Nebelheim

I don't understand having to use cis for a term either but it seems to be a thing for some reason.

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The reason if fairly obvious once you look at their usage. Across the board regardless of the subject matter, 9 out of 10 times specific labels are always used to create segregation and as a meant of derogatory insult. The 1 out of 10 times it's not the case is when the group refer to themselves. And the more specific - singular the term, the better it serves the purpose. Before I came to the US, the only term I know was "baby boomer" because it had an attached historical significance to it. After coming to the US, I always wonder why do they have all of this millennia, gen z, gen x? What's wrong with saying "old people, young people, middle age" .etc. Then as I get older, I start noticing these term mostly show up in political context, and like I said once I notice the pattern of usage, their purpose became fairly obvious.


- On the surface, the claim is to give people unique identity to help self-esteem and foster a sense of belonging.

- The reality is ... it's just a way to create tension and set up conflict with the "us vs them" mentality.

Countdown to the thread being locked on Monday starting now!!

https://media1.tenor.com/m/HG6s9dROq...haq-shimmy.gif

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Countdown to the thread being locked on Monday starting now!![/IMG]

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If it is, it's probably for the best.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Countdown to the thread being locked on Monday starting now!!

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They didn't lock this thread all last week, they probably aren't gonna touch it on Monday.

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

It was my understanding that all of these threads were just for entertainment/venting.

Are people seriously hoping any of these threads will amount to Social Change or a Cultural Revolution?

...Oh.

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You should be more like Wuk Lamo and Speen and channel your friendship power to save the world

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Originally Posted by Nebelheim

Sena is spouting toxic things about about cisgendered woman and wanting actors to be fired or step down from roles that she feels "don't" belong or fit certain roles. But it's ok for a voice actor representing a company to spout toxic things but apparently it's not ok to dislike her for being a toxic human towards others. Seems it's ok for her to be toxic and hateful and treat other horribly but the same things can't be dished back to her otherwise they get called transphobes and other names.

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At first I thought you were being a little obtuse until-

https://files.catbox.moe/hjlnv8.png

https://files.catbox.moe/ijhnbt.png

https://files.catbox.moe/zkxyd5.png

https://files.catbox.moe/v2urn2.png

That's some method acting, because that's a some catty antics. But I'm sure lashing out at her peers publicly isn't doing her any favors for finding gigs because that just sends a message to HR that she might be a headache to work with.

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Originally Posted by Manamaru

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Sena has such a delightful personality, doesn't she?

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Countdown to the thread being locked on Monday starting now!!

https://media1.tenor.com/m/HG6s9dROq...haq-shimmy.gif

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Apologies to the moderators that have to come back to work after their weekend off to this. I know you're not getting paid enough to deal with this lol.

https://media4.giphy.com/media/dzug5...=200w.gif&ct=g

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Originally Posted by FlowerMilk

Apologies to the moderators that have to come back to work after their weekend off to this. I know you're not getting paid enough to deal with this lol.[/IMG]

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The sheer lack of self-awareness you have is absolutely astounding.

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Originally Posted by All_Nonsense

You should be more like Wuk Lamo and Speen and channel your friendship power to save the world

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https://i.imgur.com/4FDLZ8g.png

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Originally Posted by Manamaru

At first I thought you were being a little obtuse until-

https://files.catbox.moe/hjlnv8.png

https://files.catbox.moe/ijhnbt.png

https://files.catbox.moe/zkxyd5.png

https://files.catbox.moe/v2urn2.png

That's some method acting, because that's a some catty antics. But I'm sure lashing out at her peers publicly isn't doing her any favors for finding gigs because that just sends a message to HR that she might be a headache to work with.

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Honestly, I'm not surprised and it's sad that I'm not surprised. People will defend that behavior tooth and nail though.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

Honestly, I'm not surprised and it's sad that I'm not surprised. People will defend that behavior tooth and nail though.

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I support Sena's position!

Wuk Lamat is a cisgender woman, and should be played by such. Given Sena's previous statements on the matter, I see no reason to believe that they will have any concerns or issues about this, and will readily step down to allow a cisgender woman to play the role of Wuk Lamat going forward in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by BigBoom550

I support Sena's position!

Wuk Lamat is a cisgender woman, and should be played by such. Given Sena's previous statements on the matter, I see no reason to believe that they will have any concerns or issues about this, and will readily step down to allow a cisgender woman to play the role of Wuk Lamat going forward in FFXIV.

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I thought she was a Hrothgar, how do you tell if a Hrothgar is cis or not? How do we know if she's never used a Fantasia?

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Originally Posted by FlowerMilk

I thought she was a Hrothgar, how do you tell if a Hrothgar is cis or not? How do we know if she's never used a Fantasia?

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What are you fishing for with this obvious bad faith argument? Genuinely curious.

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Originally Posted by FlowerMilk

I thought she was a Hrothgar, how do you tell if a Hrothgar is cis or not? How do we know if she's never used a Fantasia?

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She was explicitly targeted as a child because she was a young, female hrothgar? She was referred to as a 'rare, female child' by her biological father and targeted as such, she's consistently referred to as 'she' through the story, her biological father is also a Hrothgar, nobody ever provides any indication she was ever anything different. I think on one or two occasions she even refers to herself as female.

I genuinely have no idea what your position is here, because if your response to me making the clearly stupid argument, based on her own explicit statements, to prove how absolutely brain-dead a take it is... is to try and argue about the gender identity of a fictional cat I don't even know where to start with you. I hope you are trolling, and if not, may God have mercy on your soul.

Like, this is one of those cases we have extensive and explicit data on her history; she was given up by her father, clearly young enough she doesn't remember him at all. She's said as much. So unless your argument is a bunch of grown adults in a rural village got a hold of an extremely rare potion and shoved it down a random child's throat...

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Originally Posted by BigBoom550

She was explicitly targeted as a child because she was a young, female hrothgar? She was referred to as a 'rare, female child' by her biological father and targeted as such, she's consistently referred to as 'she' through the story, her biological father is also a Hrothgar, nobody ever provides any indication she was ever anything different. I think on one or two occasions she even refers to herself as female.

I genuinely have no idea what your position is here, because if your response to me making the clearly stupid argument, based on her own explicit statements, to prove how absolutely brain-dead a take it is... is to try and argue about the gender identity of a fictional cat I don't even know where to start with you. I hope you are trolling, and if not, may God have mercy on your soul.

Like, this is one of those cases we have extensive and explicit data on her history; she was given up by her father, clearly young enough she doesn't remember him at all. She's said as much. So unless your argument is a bunch of grown adults in a rural village got a hold of an extremely rare potion and shoved it down a random child's throat...

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Originally Posted by Vensaval

What are you fishing for with this obvious bad faith argument? Genuinely curious.

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holy moly, are you guys okay?

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Originally Posted by FlowerMilk

holy moly, are you guys okay?

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It's perfectly on brand with everything else you've been posting in this thread. If it was really a joke and we couldn't tell, then it oughta cause you to do some introspection.

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Originally Posted by FlowerMilk

holy moly, are you guys okay?

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Originally Posted by Midare

I get it, when all you got it's a hammer, everything starts looking an awful lot like nails, but that approach usually doesn't work for long.

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I see you haven't learned a thing.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

Honestly, I'm not surprised and it's sad that I'm not surprised. People will defend that behavior tooth and nail though.

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The barely veiled contempt for ciswomen is interesting to see. You would think we would get more respect from people who want to be like us.
I can't think of another VA who has ever publicly asked for a woman to step down from her job because she's a woman (very progressive btw) and not get ass blasted for it.

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Originally Posted by Midare

I see you haven't learned a thing.

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Just don't answer to this person, there is a vacuum between thoses ears.
Everything that you'll say will be dismissed or just misuderstood anyway.... Tunnel vision etc...

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Originally Posted by Manamaru

At first I thought you were being a little obtuse until-

https://files.catbox.moe/hjlnv8.png

https://files.catbox.moe/ijhnbt.png

https://files.catbox.moe/zkxyd5.png

https://files.catbox.moe/v2urn2.png

That's some method acting, because that's a some catty antics. But I'm sure lashing out at her peers publicly isn't doing her any favors for finding gigs because that just sends a message to HR that she might be a headache to work with.

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PEACE AND HAPPINEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

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Originally Posted by FlowerMilk

https://media4.giphy.com/media/ygzdQ...=200w.gif&ct=g

holy moly, are you guys okay?

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Ah yes, the "It was only a prank/joke, bro!" approach when called out for being obnoxious.
https://i.imgur.com/CCeyHzN.png

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

The barely veiled contempt for ciswomen is interesting to see. You would think we would get more respect from people who want to be like us.
I can't think of another VA who has ever publicly asked for a woman to step down from her job because she's a woman (very progressive btw) and not get ass blasted for it.

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I don't get why people struggle so much with this concept. I'm not even defending Sena. I don't like her. But she doesn't want to BE like you. She IS like you, she is like me. She is every bit as much of a woman, regardless of the circumstances of her birth. Just because she isn't a good person doesn't make it okay to deny a person's humanity like that.

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Originally Posted by SableHahma

But she doesn't want to BE like you. She IS like you, she is like me. She is every bit as much of a woman, regardless of the circumstances of her birth. Just because she isn't a good person doesn't make it okay to deny a person's humanity like that.

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Nobody says she isn't human, she's just a bad one.

And clearly she's not every bit as much a woman, because she can't even stop calling women "cis", otherwise she would just call them women. She somehow thinks her position has priority and is more important than normal women. "Because I'm a transwomen I deserve more roles" is literally what she thinks.

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Originally Posted by SableHahma

I don't get why people struggle so much with this concept. I'm not even defending Sena. I don't like her. But she doesn't want to BE like you. She IS like you, she is like me. She is every bit as much of a woman, regardless of the circumstances of her birth. Just because she isn't a good person doesn't make it okay to deny a person's humanity like that.

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It's genuinely just because they hate trans people. If it was just what they say, that they dislike her work as a VA in Dawntrail or think she's a bad person, then they would just say that (and for the record I also dislike her work and don't like her as a person, either). But they like to say wildly transphobic stuff like this and then excuse it away with "whoa how dare you I was just criticizing her job in Dawntrail and I think she's an awful person".

I suggest just reporting them for transphobia and putting them on ignore. People in this thread have already been banned for it.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

No honey, she's a transwoman and you're a ciswoman. Get it right. That's her definition of us, we're not equal in her eyes.
The person you responded to, who was responding to me, didn't deny her any 'humanity' but pointed out her behavior, which should be called out and criticized. There's no need to sympathy bait for this.

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I know you probably don't care, but for anyone wondering what the origin of cis/trans is and why it's used for gender identity, here you go:

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Where does cis come from?

Cis has traditionally been used as a prefix, the same as trans has, and comes from the latin meaning “on the same side as”, which sits opposite trans, from the latin “on the opposite side as”.

These terms have been used in the scientific disciplines for centuries, such as in chemistry, geography, and genetics.

Chemistry has used the terms trans and cis to talk about the arrangement of isomers, which are molecules or ions that have the same formula but different structures. They are used to describe the structure of a molecule, and whether an atom is on the same side as a similar atom, or a different side.

Language is full of these borrowed words, taken from different disciplines or subjects to describe new experiences and understandings of the world. The use of the word cis to talk about gender is just one more way we can make sense of and describe the world around us.

It's also important to use space between cis, trans, and the word they’re attached to, eg. Cis woman and trans woman. You wouldn’t say someone is a smartwoman or a tallwoman.

Why do we need a word for this?

The word cis exists to fill a gap that would otherwise exist in language, and that has previously been filled with words like ‘normal’ or ‘regular’, which position trans people as ‘abnormal’ or ‘irregular’ as a result. While cis people are more common, normal can have a connotation of denigrating trans people. Having a specific word means that our language is not only specific, but value neutral, and doesn’t paint cis or trans people as better or worse as a result.

By being able to differentiate between trans and cis people, we can talk about the experiences we have that differ, and the many more experiences we have that are similar.

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Originally Posted by SableHahma

I don't get why people struggle so much with this concept. I'm not even defending Sena. I don't like her. But she doesn't want to BE like you. She IS like you, she is like me. She is every bit as much of a woman, regardless of the circumstances of her birth. Just because she isn't a good person doesn't make it okay to deny a person's humanity like that.

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No honey, she's a transwoman and you're a ciswoman. Get it right. That's her definition of us, we're not equal in her eyes.
The person you responded to, who was responding to me, didn't deny her any 'humanity' but pointed out her behavior, which should be called out and criticized. There's no need to sympathy bait for this.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

No honey, she's a transwoman and you're a ciswoman. Get it right. That's her definition of us, we're not equal in her eyes.
The person you responded to, who was responding to me, didn't deny her any 'humanity' but pointed out her behavior, which should be called out and criticized. There's no need to sympathy bait for this.

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I too am a transwoman. I have absolutely no issue with anyone complaining about her work as Wuk Lamat, or her poor behavior. I think her calling out that woman for not being trans and saying she should be fired over it is absolutely detestable. I have no interest in defending her. I have no interest in Sena Bryer at all actually. The only point I'm trying to make is that regardless of her behavior or the things she said it doesn't make it okay for people to call her a he, which several people in this thread have done, or to say things like trans women are trying to be like women. We are just women. I have no sympathy for her, but just because she said some bad things doesn't mean we should stoop to her level.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

No honey, she's a transwoman and you're a ciswoman. Get it right. That's her definition of us, we're not equal in her eyes.
The person you responded to, who was responding to me, didn't deny her any 'humanity' but pointed out her behavior, which should be called out and criticized. There's no need to sympathy bait for this.

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They're the same when it suits their argument and different when it doesn't. Schrodinger's gender.

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Originally Posted by SableHahma

I too am a transwoman. I have absolutely no issue with anyone complaining about her work as Wuk Lamat, or her poor behavior. I think her calling out that woman for not being trans and saying she should be fired over it is absolutely detestable. I have no interest in defending her. I have no interest in Sena Bryer at all actually. The only point I'm trying to make is that regardless of her behavior or the things she said it doesn't make it okay for people to call her a he, which several people in this thread have done, or to say things like trans women are trying to be like women. We are just women. I have no sympathy for her, but just because she said some bad things doesn't mean we should stoop to her level.

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It's fine if you want to believe that lie I won't stop you but you can't stop those of us who are on the side of the truth to believe that. I'm not saying you personally are but there are some here who are and as for the calling him him and he I can only speak for myself but I'm not doing it out of a place of hate I'm just telling the truth that's all if I said she or her then I would be lying and I'm not doing that.

this thread is a symptom of just how far the west has fallen

everyone's infinitely more interested in talking about trans this gender that than any actual issue lmfao

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Originally Posted by Kusanagi7

It's fine if you want to believe that lie I won't stop you but you can't stop those of us who are on the side of the truth to believe that. I'm not saying you personally are but there are some here who are and as for the calling him him and he I can only speak for myself but I'm not doing it out of a place of hate I'm just telling the truth that's all if I said she or her then I would be lying and I'm not doing that.

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https://media1.tenor.com/m/yfk7-vbRO...yeah-right.gif

Yeah, this is pretty much exactly what I described. As you can see there's no point in interacting with someone who is saying some transphobic BS like this and pretending like it's totally fine lol. Just report and ignore them and hopefully the mods will see it, like I said they've already been banning people for misgendering and stuff.

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Originally Posted by FlowerMilk

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Despite how much you want it to be, disagreement isn't hate.

I have been following this thread with a lot of interest and there are some things that I need to get of my chest.

I don't care about people being trans. If you are trans and want to be either gender, male or female, why do you need to label yourself as trans first ? You want to be accepted as the gender you chose, then refer to yourself as male or female, and leave it at that. We don't need to know, you were a male or female before. It's of no importance and since when are regular woman cis ? I've been a woman for almost 65 years and I don't need to be labeled by a movement.

All those labels, that people put on themselves trying to make them stand out, but all you achieve is another box with yet another label. I don't fit in a box, let alone one with a label, so please, stop putting me in one, because you yourself stepped willingly in one.

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Originally Posted by SableHahma

I too am a transwoman. I have absolutely no issue with anyone complaining about her work as Wuk Lamat, or her poor behavior. I think her calling out that woman for not being trans and saying she should be fired over it is absolutely detestable. I have no interest in defending her. I have no interest in Sena Bryer at all actually. The only point I'm trying to make is that regardless of her behavior or the things she said it doesn't make it okay for people to call her a he, which several people in this thread have done, or to say things like trans women are trying to be like women. We are just women. I have no sympathy for her, but just because she said some bad things doesn't mean we should stoop to her level.

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Then I apologize for my heated response. However, the person you quoted who responded to me didn't call her 'he' as far as I know, neither did I. I think you make a reasonable request, however I do doubt you'd find the desired result. I personally don't agree simply because people use it as ammunition to point the metaphorical gun to everyone's head and use the big scary T-word. I have nothing against trans people at all, I've met a few chill ones and I've met a few unhinged ones that sent me to therapy from all the gaslighting. You'll find awful human beings and that fact knows no race, gender or sexuality.

I think people are frustrated/angry that alot of criticism gets deflected, and plenty of bad actors hide behind being LGBTQ to dodge criticism, I've had it happen to me despite being bi I got called a homophobe for hating a gay character (because he was useless) and it got turned into 'nah you hate him because he got it on with a djinn. I think plenty of people came here just to defend Sena, shut down any discussion, go ahead and call everyone weird or transphobe.

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Originally Posted by FlowerMilk

I know you probably don't care, but for anyone wondering what the origin of cis/trans is and why it's used for gender identity, here you go:

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Thank you for that, that's informative, I'm always open and happy to learn something new. When I read Sena's posts I don't get the feeling of neutrality however, I get a sense of envy and entitlement, and I'm not putting words in her mouth, she broadcasted these feelings herself. She's not even sugarcoating her words, she's spiteful towards 'cis' people because they get jobs and she doesn't and it's not taken out of context either. If there's discrimination, I can understand but it could also be that she's not what they want/need for the job.

I'm sure you'll find a way to take this and twist it into some kind of 'look there's transphobic hate', but I hope I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Antharaes

All those labels, that people put on themselves trying to make them stand out, but all you achieve is another box with yet another label. I don't fit in a box, let alone one with a label, so please, stop putting me in one, because you yourself stepped willingly in one.

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So much this.

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Originally Posted by FlowerMilk

Apologies to the moderators that have to come back to work after their weekend off to this.

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I don't think their work is finished yet. There will be a few more forum-holidays coming in the mail.
I got one a few years back, the moderators send a rather large Moogle with a large baseball bat to knock the living snuff out of you.

I won't say 'please look forward to it' but I would ask you to consider if it's wise to step back a little and take a breath to minimise your own incoming risk. Advice from a real real old gay guy anyway. Now is the time to turn the other cheek and stop responding milky. Log out, clear your browser cookies, ask your girlfriend to tug your tail if you feel compelled to post. You aren't doing yourself favours. You are being a super-bad ally too.

i just dont get why we have to define the way we feel as male or female. i feel how i feel, thats neither male nor female.

https://i.imgur.com/zml8Z9T.jpeg

i used to be mystified by prefix cis, but as my defense chemistry was never my strongest subject though otherwise i liked it a lot.

i avoid using cis in my writing and speaking.

the quote from above, i think, was from whoever invented usage of cis when talking about gender.
i find their rationale very awkward. redefining words is there too which i am always careful about, muddles conversation too much to my tastes. nothing against the author themselves, all that seems to come from more well than not meaning stand-point.

trans in transgender and transsexual (not listing the latter one to be duck; i know some people prefer it while other think it's slur, but i care the latter group here for fairness) comes most likely from the process of transition itself.
nothing to do with chemistry. so using chemistry terms is unnecessary.

i find "just woman/man" crowd's rationale more robust, too. that's the starting point for transgender/transsexual person after all, when it comes to tangible dimension of their own person; unless they are intersexed and even then gross majority has adjusted to one or the other social role. transitioning (social or medical) makes them transperson. in ye olden days there was objective to reach certain degree of passing, by which society granted transperson chance to change their passports and names and such, to match their new tangible reality in the yes of their fellow people, because it was sensible that way for both parties.

my birth year starts with 1 so i guess that's proof enough of how ancient i am. but im not too concerned about that.

as for miss bryer, i don't hate her, not because she is trans nor because she voiced wuk lamat. i think she pushed herself to job where her skills were lacking, so the outcome was subpar. i think she is making herself to look like an idiot by behaving as she does on social media.

as is the nature of the videogames, people critique them, professionals and laymen alike. unfortunately glaring things stand out, and miss bryer's lackluster performance is nothing short of glaring.

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Originally Posted by Vensaval

Despite how much you want it to be, disagreement isn't hate.

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Originally Posted by Voltaire, or Hall, maybe

I don't agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Originally Posted by Antharaes

I don't care about people being trans.

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most people don't care about trans people being trans. it's their private matter, so it's not even polite to be overly interested in other peoples' private businesses. But most people remember their bullies, and the mean things said by bullies.
it's pretty bad advice to leave kids deal with bullies with "ignore and and walk away", that leads to broken and traumatised kid at worst. but for adults, i would argue it's pretty workable advice.

I was wondering why the dogs were barking and it's just all in this thread.