The great streamer Asmongold is joining FFXIV

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Like i said before though, i’m not even so much asking for death as i’m asking for consequence. There were almost no consequences for the main cast of ShB, despite it being the most gritty and darkest expansion against the strongest foes imaginable. Even the whole carteneu section of 5.55, despite going against lunar primals, no one in the main cast got hurt or had any consequences. I disagree with characters deaths making them less real. If anything it makes it more realistic. No one is ever safe when it comes to think like wars or apocalypses. People don’t have plot armor or plot devices in real life. They’re just as vulnerable to things as everyone else. There isn’t really a plot device either if the writers have to resort to plot armor and plot holes to keep characters alive, like i keep staying, Graha and Yshtola. That’s more of a detriment to the story than a character death (which can actually enhance the story) would ever be.

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It seems to me like you only view consequence to be a negative thing. Like I said, Alphinaud's story arc is about consequence. Just because he didn't die or get injured, it doesn't mean there was no consequence. And being a continuous story, it can be more appropriate to represent those consequences with the lesser/temporary characters. So you have physical consequence with Arenvalt (don't know spelling), consequence of separation with Lyna and Ryne separating from the Exarch and Thancred respectively. And yes, you do have death with Alisae's friend.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Hmm, I can't speak for others, but I am quite polite in real life. The difference is.. these are games. This isn't real life. People shouldn't be taking what's said in games too personally. Not like many do here. Trash talk is just trash talk, like in sports. It's a part of competition, I feel.

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I disagree. It may be a game, but you are talking to and about real people unless you are constantly in RP mode. The game is just a medium where the chat box happens to be. It's why social interactions are not regulated by the game rating, because those interactions are not actually part of the game, though they are connected.

And yes, trash talk is trash talk, but it has its context. You don't just trash talk everywhere, and PvE should not be about competition.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

We’ve gone years with people constantly praising this game as the greatest community ever and there’s a large majority of people who constantly get spoon fed by SE or the community in that this game can do no wrong and this community is perfect, and then gaslight whenever someone calls it out.

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Except I don't think that's the case at all. So, to me, it's more like people are setting up "strawmans" most of the time. "Can do no wrong" and "perfect" are not words I usually see with respect to this community except when used by people who are criticizing the community.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Hmm, I can't speak for others, but I am quite polite in real life. The difference is.. these are games. This isn't real life. People shouldn't be taking what's said in games too personally. Not like many do here. Trash talk is just trash talk, like in sports. It's a part of competition, I feel.

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I've never taken into the train of thought that just because I'm online that it's free rein to be a jerk. Though I imagine what we consider that threshold to be very different.
Trash talking in a sport or competition is a thing yeah but how that does apply to being "proud to be toxic" in general? And once again we see complaints which boil down to problems with individuals. Why do THESE individuals get chosen to define the community rather than the neutral majority?

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Hmm, I can't speak for others, but I am quite polite in real life. The difference is.. these are games. This isn't real life. People shouldn't be taking what's said in games too personally. Not like many do here. Trash talk is just trash talk, like in sports. It's a part of competition, I feel.

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Is the difference that it's a game? Or is the difference there are absolutely no real life consequences?
Not a judgement call on you personally but I find people are very willing to "trash talk" and try to normalize it when there's no accountability whatsoever but once presented with consequences for their actions they're suddenly unwilling to spout the same vitriol even though the excuse should be the same.

Trash talk is not "a part of sports" anymore than being a bad sport is. It happens, that's all. People can have a competitive environment without being personally insulting. People can jab and banter without calling peoples actual lives into question. Victim blaming by saying "it's just a game, why are you taking it so personally" after telling people to off themselves (yes an extreme example but not unheard of) is not excusing them from what they just said.

I don't expect everyone to PG their conversation for competitive games, but it gets taken wayyy too far, far too often and then people try to hide behind it being just a game.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

People can go ahead and say “well those people don’t count for the community as a whole,” and while that is partially true, it doesn’t change the fact that it is a reoccurring problem with this community and it seems like this community specifically. People who are upset at the people that constantly call the toxicity out, please think about it from their perspective. We’ve gone years with people constantly praising this game as the greatest community ever and there’s a large majority of people who constantly get spoon fed by SE or the community in that this game can do no wrong and this community is perfect, and then gaslight whenever someone calls it out.

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We've also gone years with people saying this community is full of hypocritical bigots... so who is gaslighting who?



Both groups are present, loud representatives of both will try to say the other is the liar. The truth being it's just a game community. Every time I see one side, i will see the other loudly try to proclaim they're wrong and that the opposite is true as you are doing now.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

. Especially when they completely write over and ignore plot points the writers THEMSELVES WROTE, just to keep someone alive. It’s when it starts contradicting itself that i lose interest in the plot. Arr had consequences, HW had consequences, SB had consequences.

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Again there is consequence in shadowbringers involving a character, I just can't say it cause it's spoilers, but if you at LEAST played through 5.55 you know what I'd be talking about. I think you are just refusing to accept the fact that things are different cause you WANTED a bigger consequence and that's not a good thing, telling me that there SHOULD be something worse happening is kind of a spit in the face to the plot that's already fine as is. They explained pretty darn well in every bit of the story very well on how each character manages to get through things without consequences cause these characters are extremely good at surviving. They will use every tool and knowledge at their disposal to survive to in the end help your character progress through the story.

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Originally Posted by Pandie_Goodies

Again there is consequence in shadowbringers involving a character, I just can't say it cause it's spoilers, but if you at LEAST played through 5.55 you know what I'd be talking about. I think you are just refusing to accept the fact that things are different cause you WANTED a bigger consequence and that's not a good thing, telling me that there SHOULD be something worse happening is kind of a spit in the face to the plot that's already fine as is. They explained pretty darn well in every bit of the story very well on how each character manages to get through things without consequences cause these characters are extremely good at surviving. They will use every tool and knowledge at their disposal to survive to in the end help your character progress through the story.

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I mean, let's be honest here. "Aether" is this game's deus ex machina. It seems like you can do anything the plot calls for by manipulating this "aether" in various ways.

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Originally Posted by Pandie_Goodies

Again there is consequence in shadowbringers involving a character, I just can't say it cause it's spoilers, but if you at LEAST played through 5.55 you know what I'd be talking about. I think you are just refusing to accept the fact that things are different cause you WANTED a bigger consequence and that's not a good thing, telling me that there SHOULD be something worse happening is kind of a spit in the face to the plot that's already fine as is. They explained pretty darn well in every bit of the story very well on how each character manages to get through things without consequences cause these characters are extremely good at surviving. They will use every tool and knowledge at their disposal to survive to in the end help your character progress through the story.

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“They will use every tool and knowledge at their disposal to survive.” Except at the end of ShB there were literally two major plot holes and plot armor created to keep both us and everyone else alive that contradicted lore points they set up throughout the entire expansion. Also, the foes we faced in ShB are literally foes we’ve never faced anything like before. We had major consequences and deaths against foes much lesser than them but somehow in the expansion where the threats are bigger and things are less in our favor we somehow come out unscathed? Sorry but that just doesn’t make sense. Again, it’s a spit in your face because you’re taking it as some personal attack on yourself and your *opinion*. You think the plot is fine as is. I partially disagree. There’s nothing wrong with that i’m just merely giving my opinion that a lot of people also agree with.

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Originally Posted by Pandie_Goodies

Again there is consequence in shadowbringers involving a character, I just can't say it cause it's spoilers, but if you at LEAST played through 5.55 you know what I'd be talking about. I think you are just refusing to accept the fact that things are different cause you WANTED a bigger consequence and that's not a good thing, telling me that there SHOULD be something worse happening is kind of a spit in the face to the plot that's already fine as is. They explained pretty darn well in every bit of the story very well on how each character manages to get through things without consequences cause these characters are extremely good at surviving. They will use every tool and knowledge at their disposal to survive to in the end help your character progress through the story.

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There are most definitely a lot of consequences that have not been realized yet..

I think a lot of people think Y'shtola is "handwaving" away her deaths. But she is most definitely building up to "pay the piper" soon.

I think the story has had a problem for a while now where there is actually very little at stake for those of us who don't buy into melodrama as a narrative device. A lot of us know that nothing is actually going to happen to the likes of Aymeric, Y'shtola and Alphinaud whenever they're on screen so after a certain point it becomes tiresome whenever the threat of a fake death emerges.

We're approaching the final arc of the game's first major story arc and if nobody of note is going to die during a recreation of an apocalypse then I don't consider that to be a ringing endorsement of the game's storytelling. It'd be nice to have some genuinely shocking moments - because this is a Final Fantasy game and the single player titles haven't exactly avoided such things within their own narratives.

I guess I just think that it's one of those situations where some people are going to be able to separate themselves from whatever bias they have for a character and others can or will not do so. There's a lot of characters I like in this game, though I'd be fine with them dying if it were handled well.

I also don't really count what happened in 5.55 to be much in the way of a consequence. The character in question, as much as I like him, is very minor and he's been absent from the main story for a while now already. Bringing him back just to have him bound to a wheelchair felt like a waste. He could have stepped up and replaced one of the more stagnant characters instead. Or, perhaps, he could have actually have been killed off.

It's not a case of asking for death for the sake of death. I just think it's poor form to setup a major threat and then have very little of note happen.

Shadowbringers was meant to be about exploring a completely different world and yet the majority of our traveling companions consist of characters we have spent time with already. I'd hate to see story arcs after Endwalker devolve into just going to, say, the inner provinces of Hingashi only to have the characters from the region itself sidelined in favour of following Alphinaud and Y'shtola around yet again.

I want to see new characters with different motivations, stronger personalities and more engaging stakes - just like what existed back in ARR and HW.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

“They will use every tool and knowledge at their disposal to survive.” Except at the end of ShB there were literally two major plot holes and plot armor created to keep both us and everyone else alive that contradicted lore points they set up throughout the entire expansion. Also, the foes we faced in ShB are literally foes we’ve never faced anything like before.

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First bit, let me tell you straight up that yes you have faced enemies similar to the lightwardens, It's called Primals and their ability to temper? Lightwardens are in a way more corrupted primals that have a focus on an element that just mindlessly kill everything.

Secondly I'm very curious of your two plot holes. Cause So far I didn't see them and even if you considered them plot holes I'm going to disagree with you outright. Your "Opinion" on wanting more dark things to happen is goofy and it will in my "Opinion" Fail the plot and make the story too predictable.

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Originally Posted by FrogDog

I mean, let's be honest here. "Aether" is this game's deus ex machina. It seems like you can do anything the plot calls for by manipulating this "aether" in various ways.

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This guy right here knows exactly what my point. Aether is the main focal point to why alot of people get away with things, and I think that doesn't make the story bad. It just explains what the world is like more and more.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

There are most definitely a lot of consequences that have not been realized yet..

I think a lot of people think Y'shtola is "handwaving" away her deaths. But she is most definitely building up to "pay the piper" soon.

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Yeah, I agree with this. I'm sure later on Something involving what she keeps doing is going to come at her in a very negative way and the WoL and the others gotta take care of it somehow.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I want to see new characters with different motivations, stronger personalities and more engaging stakes - just like what existed back in ARR and HW.

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I honestly would really like to see every class quest npc have some kind of involvement to the endwalker storyline. Where they themselves have VA's and all that cool stuff. As someone who has played every single class quest I really like every npc character, I wanna see more about each character and what they are doing to help prevent the end of days.

It's an MMO. By it's very nature it's going to need to appeal to a broad range of tastes and not just a select few. Which goes for the story as well. I don't think we need to resort to gatekeeping to prevent anything bad ever happening to any of the major characters for increasingly contrived reasons.

A good story has stakes, especially one that intends to explore mature themes.

I'm also a little confused by the implication that the story would be 'predictable' if something bad happened when the story has, for a while now, had the player character save the day again and again for years with everything wrapping up in a neat little bow in the vast majority of cases.

Surely it'd be unpredictable for either a minor or major antagonist to succeed at killing someone of note off at this point rather than throwaway or secondary characters?

Thankfully the writer of Endwalker stated during Fan Fest that players should be prepared to say goodbye to some of the characters - so with any luck, that means we might see a few perish this time around.

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Originally Posted by Pandie_Goodies

This guy right here knows exactly what my point. Aether is the main focal point to why alot of people get away with things, and I think that doesn't make the story bad. It just explains what the world is like more and more.

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But that's not the characters being clever or good at survival, that's just the writers making up new rules and capabilities on the fly - and it really comes across that way to me during the MSQ sometimes. I wouldn't say that one thing alone makes the story bad but it takes away from it in my view and it's a huge reason why I just don't take this game's story very seriously.

In regards to the original topic:

I've been seeing a lot of his stuff pop up - and after some curious checking, he HAS made some solid points here and there. He'd need to try the game to really understand it, and good on him if he gets past the original slog to enjoy the game for what it is - I just hope that the high-publicity of the move doesn't especially color his enjoyment or lack thereof.

I am worried about the typical community that follows him becoming a potential problem for some time, but it's still not all THAT big of a deal because they can be ignored. Hopefully they'll find enough enjoyment in XIV to learn to be more tolerant, which is an overall net positive.

So... Neutral?

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Originally Posted by linayar

What is the context of this acknowledgement? If they haven't experienced it for themselves, it's understandable.

I'm not sure what you mean here? If people are being hypocrites or liars, that is their problem, but those people exist everywhere. If that disqualifies FFXIV from being able to have a "great" community, I think that's a negative outlook to view life and gives undue credit to bad people and allow them to ruin it for the rest.

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It just calls into question the claim this game actually has a "great community". There's a reason why it's a meme.

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Originally Posted by linayar

I disagree. It may be a game, but you are talking to and about real people unless you are constantly in RP mode. The game is just a medium where the chat box happens to be. It's why social interactions are not regulated by the game rating, because those interactions are not actually part of the game, though they are connected.

And yes, trash talk is trash talk, but it has its context. You don't just trash talk everywhere, and PvE should not be about competition.

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Unfortunately, even benign interactions seem to be heavily regulated by the enforcement of the ToS, and players who report others for anything and everything, in the hopes of getting another player banned, with absolutely no regard for context. Knowing full well, if what's reported is acted on, it will likely result in a strike.

I don't see why PvE can't be about competition. That's why there are things like leaderboards and "World first" races. I think a certain amount of healthy competition can go far into making the game a more fun experience. For that matter, we already had a taste of that sort of competition when it came to the Ishgard restoration, as I recall.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Is the difference that it's a game? Or is the difference there are absolutely no real life consequences?
Not a judgement call on you personally but I find people are very willing to "trash talk" and try to normalize it when there's no accountability whatsoever but once presented with consequences for their actions they're suddenly unwilling to spout the same vitriol even though the excuse should be the same.

Trash talk is not "a part of sports" anymore than being a bad sport is. It happens, that's all. People can have a competitive environment without being personally insulting. People can jab and banter without calling peoples actual lives into question. Victim blaming by saying "it's just a game, why are you taking it so personally" after telling people to off themselves (yes an extreme example but not unheard of) is not excusing them from what they just said.

I don't expect everyone to PG their conversation for competitive games, but it gets taken wayyy too far, far too often and then people try to hide behind it being just a game.

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If someone is going to physically assault another person for trash talk in a video game, frankly they need to get over it. That's way too far, not to mention illegal. Just because one person called another "bad" at some video game, that doesn't give them the right to introduce "real life consequences" or harm someone else over it.

Trash talk is absolutely a part of sports. For example, you can see it heavily in MMA prior to fights. I also think there's a difference between being a "bad sport" and "trash talking". I'm not referring to actual personal insults either, when I refer to "trash talk". Many in this game take any sort of criticism of the story, or characters as a personal slight. Even simply asking another to play at an adequate level is a lot of the time considered a personal attack here!

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think the story has had a problem for a while now where there is actually very little at stake for those of us who don't buy into melodrama as a narrative device. A lot of us know that nothing is actually going to happen to the likes of Aymeric, Y'shtola and Alphinaud whenever they're on screen so after a certain point it becomes tiresome whenever the threat of a fake death emerges.

We're approaching the final arc of the game's first major story arc and if nobody of note is going to die during a recreation of an apocalypse then I don't consider that to be a ringing endorsement of the game's storytelling. It'd be nice to have some genuinely shocking moments - because this is a Final Fantasy game and the single player titles haven't exactly avoided such things within their own narratives.

I guess I just think that it's one of those situations where some people are going to be able to separate themselves from whatever bias they have for a character and others can or will not do so. There's a lot of characters I like in this game, though I'd be fine with them dying if it were handled well.

I also don't really count what happened in 5.55 to be much in the way of a consequence. The character in question, as much as I like him, is very minor and he's been absent from the main story for a while now already. Bringing him back just to have him bound to a wheelchair felt like a waste. He could have stepped up and replaced one of the more stagnant characters instead. Or, perhaps, he could have actually have been killed off.

It's not a case of asking for death for the sake of death. I just think it's poor form to setup a major threat and then have very little of note happen.

Shadowbringers was meant to be about exploring a completely different world and yet the majority of our traveling companions consist of characters we have spent time with already. I'd hate to see story arcs after Endwalker devolve into just going to, say, the inner provinces of Hingashi only to have the characters from the region itself sidelined in favour of following Alphinaud and Y'shtola around yet again.

I want to see new characters with different motivations, stronger personalities and more engaging stakes - just like what existed back in ARR and HW.

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And I'mma say this. If you're not liking how they are writing the main cast now, then why on earth do you want them to replace them with new faces. To do what? Do the same thing you're sick of the main cast doing? That's what I mean. Changing the players would do nothing if the writing isn't going to change. All you'll be doing is giving the party Fantas to look and sound different. They would still have the plot armor you hate and they still won't be getting killed off. The problem isn't death OR the cast. It's the writing.

I don't think death is the only answer. Hell if I had it my way at Endwalker after 6.0 all of the party would retired and go to do their own personal things and the WOL would go on their own adventures and meet new people that way. Rather or not anyone die wouldn't matter as I'll be introducing new people and thats that. I wouldn't go back to see the old characters unless I had a use for them then. And would only use death if it works for a story and not just cause.. otherwise you're just being wasteful. Honestly, with a sudden blind kitty.. I wouldn't be teasing death on her so much cause it gives off this idea that she has plot armor. she DOES... but they are hiding it badly. I will say that.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Yes, if we're not going to see any major deaths during the re-creation of an apocalypse, when are we going to see it?

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Scions & Co emerge victorious from the end of all things- 12 minutes into 6.X G'raha breaks his back from a ladder accident after not properly tying it down and following basic safety. OSHA investigates the Scions, brutal reckoning.

Rich Campbell a very good friend of Asmons is playing the mmo right now and it seems to be going well. He is being followed around by a sperg army trying to show off their mounts and already has about 10 million gil at lvl 7 so there is that. Only one person has been rude in a city so far which is a bad reflection on the community and childish.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

It just calls into question the claim this game actually has a "great community". There's a reason why it's a meme.

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No, it doesn't. A great community should be an overall judgment, taking into account that there are exceptions to the rule. Wanting to keep the community "pristine" or "pure" or whatever leads to the fear of the likes of Asmongold coming in. So people can't complain about that kind of reaction and then want to say at the same time that people being toxic in the community calls into question how great the community is. If people want to be welcoming of others, then accept that this community has people of differing attitudes and behaviors and opinions, some of it good, some of it not so good. That doesn't make it not great.

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Unfortunately, even benign interactions seem to be heavily regulated by the enforcement of the ToS, and players who report others for anything and everything, in the hopes of getting another player banned, with absolutely no regard for context. Knowing full well, if what's reported is acted on, it will likely result in a strike.

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That's only a problem if you think the rule isn't being enforced well, but that's a different issue.

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I don't see why PvE can't be about competition. That's why there are things like leaderboards and "World first" races. I think a certain amount of healthy competition can go far into making the game a more fun experience. For that matter, we already had a taste of that sort of competition when it came to the Ishgard restoration, as I recall.

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Leaderboards and races are PvP elements, and the problem is that mixes two different expectations. If everybody agrees on what they sign up on, then that's fine. But when they don't, and in the context where the game doesn't force competition, that's where expectations should be aligned to the nature of the content.

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Originally Posted by Gameovers

The problem isn't death OR the cast. It's the writing.

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Not necessarily. I think the problem, more often than not, is a matter of difference between expectations of the player and where the story is heading.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Rich Campbell a very good friend of Asmons is playing the mmo right now and it seems to be going well. He is being followed around by a sperg army trying to show off their mounts and already has about 10 million gil at lvl 7 so there is that. Only one person has been rude in a city so far which is a bad reflection on the community and childish.

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See, if anything, this community can be too great sometimes, giving things to streamers, lol. (I'm not jealous, nope, not at all...) Though on a more serious note, that can also cheapen their experience, but whatever. If they accept the gifts, then that's fine.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

If someone is going to physically assault another person for trash talk in a video game, frankly they need to get over it. That's way too far, not to mention illegal. Just because one person called another "bad" at some video game, that doesn't give them the right to introduce "real life consequences" or harm someone else over it.

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While I agree physical assault isn't WARRANTED, it's one of those things you have to risk if you're going to start badmouthing someone to their face and is likely a factor in keeping in-person trash talk at least about the game. However I'm also speaking of watching the facial expression and result of verbally destroying someone as well. LOTS of people will not do this if they actually have to watch someone crumble. It's easy to take down someone if you can reduce them to text and a game character, much harder to deal with an actual human being getting hurt by your actions (mentally or physically) and reconciling with yourself what you just did.

All in all the argument that "it's just trash talk" goes out the window when it's admitted that if you tried saying the same things to someone's face, you wouldn't be willing to deal with the consequences.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Trash talk is absolutely a part of sports. For example, you can see it heavily in MMA prior to fights.

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You mean the ones where the two guys then proceed to beat the ever-living stuffing out of each other? ... Yeah I'm thinking maybe using the same standard for a video game isn't very honest. Trash talking when not associated with then violently physically harming another person is usually just about the current game being played and while accepted isn't encouraged or a main attraction. Otherwise you'd have mics on every player on the field to keep up.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I also think there's a difference between being a "bad sport" and "trash talking". I'm not referring to actual personal insults either, when I refer to "trash talk". Many in this game take any sort of criticism of the story, or characters as a personal slight. Even simply asking another to play at an adequate level is a lot of the time considered a personal attack here!

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Then you're strawmanning the heck out of what kind of "trash talk" people have a problem with. The issue is when it DOES actually become personal attacks or denigration. "we're going to win" or "you guys suck" are harmless trash talk. Sure. Telling someone "hey could you do basic AOE rotations"? .. Fine.

"God could you guys kill stuff any slower?"

not fine.

The community here (in the forums) is especially touchy, I can concede that. But in game? Most of the time people just ignore you if you're a jerk. The game community just is a game community. It's not this hive of two-faced secret bigots or a wonderland utopia. Generally I personally find I encounter more nice than not people and my personal past experiences with some other MMO's have skewed the other way slightly. I'll agree that advertising FFXIV as some sort of carebear "we wuv evvwy buddy!" land is wrong. But it's pretty bad to present it as "everyone who think's it's a nice place and has had a good experience is just fooling themselves" as well.

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Originally Posted by linayar

No, it doesn't. A great community should be an overall judgment, taking into account that there are exceptions to the rule. Wanting to keep the community "pristine" or "pure" or whatever leads to the fear of the likes of Asmongold coming in. So people can't complain about that kind of reaction and then want to say at the same time that people being toxic in the community calls into question how great the community is. If people want to be welcoming of others, then accept that this community has people of differing attitudes and behaviors and opinions, some of it good, some of it not so good. That doesn't make it not great.

That's only a problem if you think the rule isn't being enforced well, but that's a different issue.

Leaderboards and races are PvP elements, and the problem is that mixes two different expectations. If everybody agrees on what they sign up on, then that's fine. But when they don't, and in the context where the game doesn't force competition, that's where expectations should be aligned to the nature of the content.

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Yes, and many could probably come to the conclusion that the FFXIV community isn't necessarily a "great community". On the surface some might think that it is, due to how ToS enforcement is handled, but this is just people getting banned and/or having a some self-control. One could say it only resembles a "great" community, because players are afraid of getting banned, and instead act passive-aggressively in-game, and show their true colors third-party.

Competition with one's self could also be a form of competition in PvE. Improving at the game, and overcoming the odds of whatever piece content they are doing.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

While I agree physical assault isn't WARRANTED, it's one of those things you have to risk if you're going to start badmouthing someone to their face and is likely a factor in keeping in-person trash talk at least about the game. However I'm also speaking of watching the facial expression and result of verbally destroying someone as well. LOTS of people will not do this if they actually have to watch someone crumble. It's easy to take down someone if you can reduce them to text and a game character, much harder to deal with an actual human being getting hurt by your actions (mentally or physically) and reconciling with yourself what you just did.

All in all the argument that "it's just trash talk" goes out the window when it's admitted that if you tried saying the same things to someone's face, you wouldn't be willing to deal with the consequences.




You mean the ones where the two guys then proceed to beat the ever-living stuffing out of each other? ... Yeah I'm thinking maybe using the same standard for a video game isn't very honest. Trash talking when not associated with then violently physically harming another person is usually just about the current game being played and while accepted isn't encouraged or a main attraction. Otherwise you'd have mics on every player on the field to keep up.


Then you're strawmanning the heck out of what kind of "trash talk" people have a problem with. The issue is when it DOES actually become personal attacks or denigration. "we're going to win" or "you guys suck" are harmless trash talk. Sure. Telling someone "hey could you do basic AOE rotations"? .. Fine.

"God could you guys kill stuff any slower?"

not fine.

The community here (in the forums) is especially touchy, I can concede that. But in game? Most of the time people just ignore you if you're a jerk. The game community just is a game community. It's not this hive of two-faced secret bigots or a wonderland utopia. Generally I personally find I encounter more nice than not people and my personal past experiences with some other MMO's have skewed the other way slightly. I'll agree that advertising FFXIV as some sort of carebear "we wuv evvwy buddy!" land is wrong. But it's pretty bad to present it as "everyone who think's it's a nice place and has had a good experience is just fooling themselves" as well.

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Frankly, if someone is "crumbling" over being called bad at a video game, they need to grow thicker skin. Like, I'm just saying. Nobody should have to worry about being physically assaulted either. If the other person cannot control themselves, they should probably go into anger management, or face potential jail time. If anyone would be facing "repercussions" in this scenario, it's them.

Trash talk isn't restricted to one sport, and for that matter, both parties in MMA agreed to whatever they are getting into. On top of there being medical personnel on standby, and regulations in place. Usually both parties understand what is said is just trash talk, and actually respect each other, and the sport. It's completely different from somebody with no modicum of self-control pummeling another person for trash talk.

How exactly is "God could you guys kill stuff any slower?" worse than "You guys suck"? It's the same thing in my eyes. Also, how is "we're going to win" trash talk? I suppose if the person saying "we're going to win" is being sarcastic, but even then.. [EDIT] [Oh, do you mean in regards to the other team? I was thinking in FFXIV context. Never mind here then. I'd BARELY consider that trash talk though.] And "hey could you do basic AOE rotations?" isn't even trash talk, that's just asking a player to use their kit.. :confused:

My prior response probably covers this.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Frankly, if someone is "crumbling" over being called bad at a video game, they need to grow thicker skin. Like, I'm just saying. Nobody should have to worry about being physically assaulted either. If the other person cannot control themselves, they should probably go into anger management, or face potential jail time. If anyone would be facing "repercussions" in this scenario, it's them.

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Again you're choosing something that I've already said isn't the problem. People using language they wouldn't use in person is the problem. If you wouldn't say it to someone's face, don't say it to someone you don't know. If you goad someone and then cry when they react, you're the problem. If you goad someone in a vicious matter because you know for a fact they cannot retaliate and you're "safe", you are implicitly admitting that what you're doing is not acceptable behavior. When you can see that what you're doing, in a reasonable situation, could result in a reasonable person losing their cool, MAYYYYYYBE you can see how you're the problem? THAT'S my problem with most people who say "it's just trash talk". They're usually using that excuse after they've been threatened with consequences they didn't think they'd have to face like say being reported for doing it too often and to the wrong people.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Trash talk isn't restricted to one sport, and for that matter, both parties in MMA agreed to whatever they are getting into. On top of there being medical personnel on standby, and regulations in place. Usually both parties understand what is said is just trash talk, and actually respect each other, and the sport. It's completely different from somebody with no modicum of self-control pummeling another person for trash talk.

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Then the "trash talk" in MMA is a spectacle and shouldn't be considered part of the "sport". It's all presentation. And again, I am not saying getting physical as retaliation is OK. I'm saying if you're taking your trashtalk to the level at which , in real life, you'd worry about someone losing their cool, you're not trash talking anymore, you're just being a jerk.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

How exactly is "God could you guys kill stuff any slower?" worse than "You guys suck"? It's the same thing in my eyes. Also, how is "we're going to win" trash talk? I suppose if the person saying "we're going to win" is being sarcastic, but even then.. And "hey could you do basic AOE rotations?" isn't even trash talk, that's just asking a player to use their kit.. :confused:

My prior response probably covers this.

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Sorry, that one should have been clarified more. "You guys suck" when speaking to say an opposing team. There is an expectation of adversity there. "We're going to win" in the same context, when saying it to the other team.

"Hey could you do basic AOE rotations?" ISN'T trash talk, it's just being really passive aggressive. But still it's within reasonable conversation.

But once you get to "god could you guys kill stuff any slower" you're just being insulting for no reason and it's not productive. It can't be excused as trash talk because there's no competition to have. There's no reason to insult party members. None. Even if they're the worst players you ever encountered you don't need to go there and you shouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

There are most definitely a lot of consequences that have not been realized yet..

I think a lot of people think Y'shtola is "handwaving" away her deaths. But she is most definitely building up to "pay the piper" soon.

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I really like Y'shtola but

sadly I don't think the plot point of her shortening her life by using her own aether to "see" is ever gonna be brought up again because I feel that they'd have done that by now, instead, she got a power upgrade in ShB
Plus, with her being somewhat of the Dissidia mascot character now, they're not gonna kill her

G'raha, no,

the Exarch surviving like that completely cheapens the emotional impact they've built up, too, imo
An addition to that, turning the wise and knowledgeable Exarch into a fangirl like that just feels wrong, should've either kept the Exarch personality or just NOT fuse the soul of the First one's with the Source's soul and let Source G'raha be himself - and invite him to the Scions regardless!

I'm enjoying how this thread topic transformed into lore plot-holes and characters cheating death when they probably should be dead.

Speaking of Lore and public figures on the internet, i wonder whatever happened to "Lore"? He was pretty active in the MMOrpg gaming spotlight via Gamebreaker TV until eventually Blizzard hired him- and then he disappeared around the time when Blizzard stopped doing those livestreams.

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Originally Posted by Pandie_Goodies

First bit, let me tell you straight up that yes you have faced enemies similar to the lightwardens, It\\'s called Primals and their ability to temper? Lightwardens are in a way more corrupted primals that have a focus on an element that just mindlessly kill everything.

Secondly I\\'m very curious of your two plot holes. Cause So far I didn\\'t see them and even if you considered them plot holes I\\'m going to disagree with you outright. Your "Opinion" on wanting more dark things to happen is goofy and it will in my "Opinion" Fail the plot and make the story too predictable.

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Story Spoilers...

I wasn’t talking about Lightwardens first of all, i was talking about the Unsundered Ascians. Secondly, the two plot holes are: They explain throughout the story of ShB that the farther Graha is from the tower, the weaker he becomes. They mention it numerous times, but not only do they mention it, but they also literally show us it in Kholusia where he almost passes out from helping us take out a few sineaters and protect a dwarf and has to go take a rest. However, all of a sudden near the end of the game, he’s able to summon 7 WoL from across the shards, despite 1.Only able to accomplish this feat once, which was when he was under the full power of the crystal tower and it literally took him 4-5 tries to even barely get it right, and 2. He was the farthest from the tower he’s ever been, much much farther than Kholusia where he had passed out, yet he can somehow do this while the farthest away from the tower and could multiply by 7. The second one is the fact that the only reason Emet kept Graha alive is because he wanted his knowledge on the Crystal Tower. Yet....we know he can literally just kill him and go into his body and take the knowledge that way. As for your comment about dark things making the story too predictable....what? How is it any more predictable than nothing ever happening to the protagonists and none of them dying and always being okay.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Story Spoilers...

I wasn’t talking about Lightwardens first of all, i was talking about the Unsundered Ascians. Secondly, the two plot holes are: They explain throughout the story of ShB that the farther Graha is from the tower, the weaker he becomes. They mention it numerous times, but not only do they mention it, but they also literally show us it in Kholusia where he almost passes out from helping us take out a few sineaters and protect a dwarf and has to go take a rest. However, all of a sudden near the end of the game, he’s able to summon 7 WoL from across the shards, despite 1.Only able to accomplish this feat once, which was when he was under the full power of the crystal tower and it literally took him 4-5 tries to even barely get it right, and 2. He was the farthest from the tower he’s ever been, much much farther than Kholusia where he had passed out, yet he can somehow do this while the farthest away from the tower and could multiply by 7. The second one is the fact that the only reason Emet kept Graha alive is because he wanted his knowledge on the Crystal Tower. Yet....we know he can literally just kill him and go into his body and take the knowledge that way. As for your comment about dark things making the story too predictable....what? How is it any more predictable than nothing ever happening to the protagonists and none of them dying and always being okay.

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Story spoilers below.

I think it was apparent that G'raha's power to summon people from other worlds was a Hail Mary on his part. Not to mention, I wouldn't necessarily call this a plothole as even Emet voiced his incredulity.
"...I'm surprised you can still stand."
He still had some fight left in him and with the quantity of people he was trying to summon, that can easily be explained away with the fact that this was the moment where he wasn't trying to summon someone specific.
"Heroes from beyond the rift, hear my call" <-- He was casting a wide net and just needed some volunteers to answer back. That and this also an interesting way for the devs to canonize the Duty Finder at the climax of the story because it was usually an implication that almost everything the WoL did, they did solo.

As for him getting weaker the further away he was from the Crystal Tower, it's important to note that G'raha pretty much just told half-truths up to that point. He kept a lot of secrets and his excuse to rest might've been an outright lie just to spend more time with the WoL since he was reconciling the idea of never seeing them again and was ready to die for their sake.

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Originally Posted by ScarboroughFairy

Story spoilers below.

I think it was apparent that G'raha's power to summon people from other worlds was a Hail Mary on his part. Not to mention, I wouldn't necessarily call this a plothole as even Emet voiced his incredulity.
"...I'm surprised you can still stand."
He still had some fight left in him and with the quantity of people he was trying to summon, that can easily be explained away with the fact that this was the moment where he wasn't trying to summon someone specific.
"Heroes from beyond the rift, hear my call" <-- He was casting a wide net and just needed some volunteers to answer back. That and this also an interesting way for the devs to canonize the Duty Finder at the climax of the story because it was usually an implication that almost everything the WoL did, they did solo.

As for him getting weaker the further away he was from the Crystal Tower, it's important to note that G'raha pretty much just told half-truths up to that point. He kept a lot of secrets and his excuse to rest might've been an outright lie just to spend more time with the WoL since he was reconciling the idea of never seeing them again and was ready to die for their sake.

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It’s a lot of maybe’s and couldve’s though. It’s something that essentially contradicts the entire plot that they set up throughout the entire expansion. I mean, it isn’t even just the rest thing.

It’s the reason he didn’t travel with us to the places with lightwardens besides holminster because it was closer. All the other places he has to stay behind. It’s the fact that they address it numerous times and go so far as to show us the results of it, that just makes it completely unbelievable and contradicts the story. Let’s not forget he was also shot lmao. Point still stands though, even summoning the scions tired him out and those were merely side effects of the main thing he was trying to do, but you mean to tell me he was able to accomplish a feat he had never done before whilst being seriously injured and who knows how far away from the tower he was(literally the opposite direction and under hundreds of miles underwater lmao). If it was something that resulted in him using his life energies to do it then that’d make more sense, but then it’d result in him dying and apparently we can’t have that. My Hades point still stands as well as a major plot hole.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

I'm enjoying how this thread topic transformed into lore plot-holes and characters cheating death when they probably should be dead.

Speaking of Lore and public figures on the internet, i wonder whatever happened to "Lore"? He was pretty active in the MMOrpg gaming spotlight via Gamebreaker TV until eventually Blizzard hired him- and then he disappeared around the time when Blizzard stopped doing those livestreams.

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He's still there and serves as the content creator liaison now instead of interacting with the general community.

I had never liked him that much myself. When he replaced Ciderhelm and Aliena (sp?) at Tankspot, he had come across as a shill for the devs trying to get the Tankspot community behind unpopular game changes even when he had previously stated contrary opinions. Turned out he was trying to suck up to the devs so he could get a job with Blizzard (it worked).

I could appreciate the way he frequently communicated as a CM with players once he had the job but I could never view him as anything other than a dev mouthpiece. It doesn't surprise me that's he's disappeared from view since the devs have stopped caring about the community.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It’s a lot of maybe’s and couldve’s though. It’s something that essentially contradicts the entire plot that they set up throughout the entire expansion. I mean, it isn’t even just the rest thing.

It’s the reason he didn’t travel with us to the places with lightwardens besides holminster because it was closer. All the other places he has to stay behind. It’s the fact that they address it numerous times and go so far as to show us the results of it, that just makes it completely unbelievable and contradicts the story. Let’s not forget he was also shot lmao. Point still stands though, even summoning the scions tired him out and those were merely side effects of the main thing he was trying to do, but you mean to tell me he was able to accomplish a feat he had never done before whilst being seriously injured and who knows how far away from the tower he was(literally the opposite direction and under hundreds of miles underwater lmao). If it was something that resulted in him using his life energies to do it then that’d make more sense, but then it’d result in him dying and apparently we can’t have that. My Hades point still stands as well as a major plot hole.

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Seriously injured doesn't mean useless. If you can still hold your weapon and stand, you can still fight and, not deviate too far from the point, that's basic combat triage. That and "you mean to tell me he accomplished a feat he had never done before" is ignoring the fact that he's had practice with porting the other Scions to the First before the WoL. With that in mind and with him casting such a wide net to pull other warriors from across the rift into the fight, it's not that much of a stretch. If Alisaie can pull an LB3 out of her ass for something as simple as buying the WoL time, this isn't even remotely impossible and especially given how desperate the situation was. Again, this was a Hail Mary and, who knows, maybe you'll get your wish of direct, explicit confirmation in the next expansion.

As for Emet killing G'raha, the point in that scene was to use him as a bargaining chip.
"Don't worry, your friend is still alive but whether he remains so depends on you."
I will give you the fact that Emet could've killed G'raha to divulge all his secrets, but there's nothing that says he wasn't going to kill him after he reached his ultimatum with the WoL and the Scions.

Genuine question--is character death necessary for a decent story? It's completely fine if you believe so.
Hot take: "No one's died yet" isn't as much of a critique as people think it is.

It's also not a question of if, but when. When you're not expecting someone to die, based on precedent, and then they just straight die anyway, it's waaaaay more impactful.

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Originally Posted by ScarboroughFairy

Snip

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It just sounds like a whole lot of headcanon to argue with the actual facts we’re given in game. Which is something this community likes to do a lot. As for your question, it depends on the kind of story.

Shadowbringers is a story where the stakes are the highest they’ve ever been in the entire game. Not even the crystal braves situation or Zenos comes close to it. We face two of our toughest foes in the entire game yet we’re somehow able to do so without anything happening to us or the main cast. It completely defeats the purpose of portraying and writing a story as high stakes, but not following through with anything. They constantly teased Yshtola’s death and nothing came of it. They constantly teased Graha’s death and nothing came of it. They set up specific lore points and then ignored them to keep a character alive. You can speculate on things to try to make it make sense in your mind, but it clashes with the actual information we’re given in game. Emet didn’t need a bargaining chip at that point. If he had figured out how to time travel from Graha, he’d have been out. That’s my entire point. That entire section of the game shouldn’t have even happened because in reality, he would’ve killed Graha and then yeeted out. They build up these lore threads and then don’t follow through with them in favor of keeping a character alive. That’s when it becomes a problem for me because then it starts being like, well then what’s the point of even speculating or theorizing the story. If they’re not even going to follow the rules they write themselves all because it’s in favor of keeping a character the community likes, alive. In the case of ShB, no deaths or consequences for us or the main cast negatively impacts the story. Many will disagree sure, because they’re the type that can’t get over Haurchefant after 6 years passing after his death lol. I get liking a character, i do, but that’s why adding a consequence to them or killing them can impact the story in a good way in a variety of ways. It’s unrealistic that any of the scions came out unscathed in what is the grittiest and highest stakes expansion yet. Someone else tried to say it was due to their knowledge and tools but no lol. It was due to immense amounts of plot armor. I personally dislike the way they’ve gone of there only being consequences and deaths for antagonists. It makes the story very one-sided and imo dull. Especially when the protagonists don’t even succeed through their own volition or power. They only do it through the power of plot armor and *friendship*.

Man this thread has taken some turns. Whining about a streamer playing the game to arguing about character death and ascian simpery. It's been a wild ride.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It just sounds like a whole lot of headcanon to argue with the actual facts we’re given in game. Which is something this community likes to do a lot. As for your question, it depends on the kind of story.

Shadowbringers is a story where the stakes are the highest they’ve ever been in the entire game. Not even the crystal braves situation or Zenos comes close to it. We face two of our toughest foes in the entire game yet we’re somehow able to do so without anything happening to us or the main cast. It completely defeats the purpose of portraying and writing a story as high stakes, but not following through with anything. They constantly teased Yshtola’s death and nothing came of it. They constantly teased Graha’s death and nothing came of it. They set up specific lore points and then ignored them to keep a character alive. You can speculate on things to try to make it make sense in your mind, but it clashes with the actual information we’re given in game. Emet didn’t need a bargaining chip at that point. If he had figured out how to time travel from Graha, he’d have been out. That’s my entire point. That entire section of the game shouldn’t have even happened because in reality, he would’ve killed Graha and then yeeted out. They build up these lore threads and then don’t follow through with them in favor of keeping a character alive. That’s when it becomes a problem for me because then it starts being like, well then what’s the point of even speculating or theorizing the story. If they’re not even going to follow the rules they write themselves all because it’s in favor of keeping a character the community likes, alive. In the case of ShB, no deaths or consequences for us or the main cast negatively impacts the story. Many will disagree sure, because they’re the type that can’t get over Haurchefant after 6 years passing after his death lol. I get liking a character, i do, but that’s why adding a consequence to them or killing them can impact the story in a good way in a variety of ways. It’s unrealistic that any of the scions came out unscathed in what is the grittiest and highest stakes expansion yet. Someone else tried to say it was due to their knowledge and tools but no lol. It was due to immense amounts of plot armor. I personally dislike the way they’ve gone of there only being consequences and deaths for antagonists. It makes the story very one-sided and imo dull. Especially when the protagonists don’t even succeed through their own volition or power. They only do it through the power of plot armor and *friendship*.

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Sadly the fact is that the characters are marketable. So don't expect huge changes like death for them until they are done being selling points. Yshtola being the biggest problem. She is the mascot in japan so yeah. Not saying I agree with it.. but this is just the truth. Marketing.

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Originally Posted by Gameovers

Sadly the fact is that the characters are marketable. So don't expect huge changes like death for them until they are done being selling points. Yshtola being the biggest problem. She is the mascot in japan so yeah. Not saying I agree with it.. but this is just the truth. Marketing.

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Oh i agree. That’s why it’s funny to me though to constantly see people spout the nonsense of like, “oh it’s a final fantasy game first and an mmo after so the story takes priority.” Like...no. Marketing takes priority. Whatever makes them the most money will be what they decide. To tie it back into this thread though, it’s why i don’t really understand the part of the community that hates on people for disliking the story or skipping it. When they use it as their main marketing tool and don’t even follow their own rules when it comes to it lol. It’s all about money in the end.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Oh i agree. That’s why it’s funny to me though to constantly see people spout the nonsense of like, “oh it’s a final fantasy game first and an mmo after so the story takes priority.” Like...no. Marketing takes priority. Whatever makes them the most money will be what they decide. To tie it back into this thread though, it’s why i don’t really understand the part of the community that hates on people for disliking the story or skipping it. When they use it as their main marketing tool and don’t even follow their own rules when it comes to it lol. It’s all about money in the end.

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I mean to be fair in respect it wants to treat itself like one. But I pose this.. whats the last Final Fantasy game that killed off a main character? I don't recall any after 10 and that was 20 something years ago. Saz - spelling but I forget- in 13 should've died for his plot but no.. he's alive. Noone in 15 dies from the main cast til the end and thats debatable. And you can't pay me enough to believe they are going to kill off Aries in remake. AS far as skipping the story, that's going to be an issue no matter what people think. People who don't want to spend 500 plus hours will not spend 500 plus hours nor should they have too. I mean not since SE put the skips in there anyway. So yeah they have an option. But this is all money first. I respect YP team as they earned it but yeah. SE is about the money. Remake wasn't going to be made unless it proved to provide a return on the investment. One of the reasons it's being told in parts. :c

On topic forreal tho. I don't think he's coming because his chat keeps begging him to come and everytime he sees XIV news now he groans and is clearly sick of it. You can see it in his face. I feel bad for the man. Like lets leave him alone and let him play his WoW :c

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Sneep

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Care to elaborate?

Is it your contention that because we faced two of our toughest enemies in the game, people are obligated to die or is it because that'd be something that you personally would find more interesting? Nothing happened to the Scions before the Hades fight because he was playing with his food. It wasn't just implied, Emet stated it himself:
"If I were to bring my full power to bear, you would be scattered like leaves in the wind."
He was purposely holding back just to prove a point. As for that section of the game not happening, the reason it happened in the first place was because Emet-Selch was still operating on the premise of making the Scions understand what it was that the Ascians were trying to do. Sure, it was more so an invitation for the WoL to head to Amaurot and quietly go insane, but that was his final token of good faith. He was confident in his victory after that and would've won had it not been for Minfilia having enough foresight to allow the WoL to rejoin with Ardbert.

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They constantly teased Yshtola’s death and nothing came of it. They constantly teased Graha’s death and nothing came of it.

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Nothing came of Y'shtola's death because of Emet-Selch. As you know, him pulling her from the Lifestream in the same manner the Elementals did was a pretty convenient way for him to gain the Scions' trust and set up the massive lorebomb regarding Amaurot and the required threads for Endwalker to even be a possibility. Also, if that section of the game regarding The Tempest didn't happen, what then? The WoL would've died of Light-cancer, turned into the most powerful Sin Eater in existence and coup de grâce'd the First. The end.

That and G'raha did, effectively, die. It just wasn't at the climax of 5.0, which seems to be your main contention regarding that point. If you think about it, there's only a few circumstances in this game where death is an indefinite consequence, otherwise, characters face death all the time with no way to circumvent it. This was established back in ARR during the discussion of how Ascians were able to reincarnate after "killing" them. G'raha managed to survive his ordeal with Elidibus because of a plot device established back in the first grind, replicating a dark crystal.

I feel like the longer we have this discussion, the more I feel like you're missing the forest for the trees with these particular takes.

As for plot armor, I'll actually give that to you. The Scions have a lot of plot armor, but none of it is unearned and plot armor isn't necessarily bad, either. You might disagree, but this isn't the first time in media where the main cast survives up until the point of the finale to further cement that feeling of shared growth. Sometimes plot armor is necessary to supplement the wider, overarching narrative.

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Originally Posted by Gameovers

I mean to be fair in respect it wants to treat itself like one. But I pose this.. whats the last Final Fantasy game that killed off a main character? I don't recall any after 10 and that was 20 something years ago. Saz - spelling but I forget- in 13 should've died for his plot but no.. he's alive. Noone in 15 dies from the main cast til the end and thats debatable. And you can't pay me enough to believe they are going to kill off Aries in remake. AS far as skipping the story, that's going to be an issue no matter what people think. People who don't want to spend 500 plus hours will not spend 500 plus hours nor should they have too. I mean not since SE put the skips in there anyway. So yeah they have an option. But this is all money first. I respect YP team as they earned it but yeah. SE is about the money. Remake wasn't going to be made unless it proved to provide a return on the investment. One of the reasons it's being told in parts. :c

On topic forreal tho. I don't think he's coming because his chat keeps begging him to come and everytime he sees XIV news now he groans and is clearly sick of it. You can see it in his face. I feel bad for the man. Like lets leave him alone and let him play his WoW :c

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In regards to your who has died after 10.... never played 11 myself but i’m sure some people died, 12 had two main cast members kick the bucket, 13-2 did, 15 did. It’s a common thing in past final fantasy games because it’s what enhances the story and gets people’s emotions going. I felt nothing in 5.3 for a certain character because i knew they were going to be perfectly fine. It just sucks because i think it’s pretty clear a lot of it is pandering to the community because of which characters they attach too so we get things like the cringy uwu fanboy moments from a certain character...but yeah. In regards to the topic, all i can say is if he does come here i hope people quit being rude and let the man play it in peace. Respect his opinion whatever it is and move on. It isn’t the end of the world.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

In regards to your who has died after 10.... never played 11 myself but i’m sure some people died, 12 had two main cast members kick the bucket, 13-2 did, 15 did. It’s a common thing in past final fantasy games because it’s what enhances the story and gets people’s emotions going. I felt nothing in 5.3 for a certain character because i knew they were going to be perfectly fine. It just sucks because i think it’s pretty clear a lot of it is pandering to the community because of which characters they attach too so we get things like the cringy uwu fanboy moments from a certain character...but yeah. In regards to the topic, all i can say is if he does come here i hope people quit being rude and let the man play it in peace. Respect his opinion whatever it is and move on. It isn’t the end of the world.

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Who died in 15? I'm not counting the ending cause.... thats the ending. OOOH That one girl. That's who died. Can we count that? She impacts the story yes.. but as you can see.. I forgot about that.

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Originally Posted by Gameovers

Who died in 15? I'm not counting the ending cause.... thats the ending. OOOH That one girl. That's who died. Can we count that? She impacts the story yes.. but as you can see.. I forgot about that.

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Honestly her death had little impact to me because I knew it was coming. It was so heavily foreshadowed.

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Originally Posted by ScarboroughFairy

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Last post regarding this

My point on us facing the toughest enemies so far is that, there should be stakes. If we fight the toughest enemies we ever have from the start of the game and the stakes are supposed to be high but nothing happens to us our the cast...there’s no emotional pull. It’s dull. None of it feels earned or like it was a difficult victory. It seems like a lot of weak writing as to why none of the scions were harmed. My point about Emet was the fact that, it was a major plot hole for him to not kill Graha then and there. Yes, they tried to cover it up by having him go to the tempest and show us the past, but literally all of that is meaningless when Graha is literally what held the key to him making sure that past was never a thing. They could’ve had him pull Yshtola out but made it where her health had deteriorated more than before back in HW since yknow...that’s supposed to be an actual plot point they completely dropped lmao. Exarch didn’t die. People can go ahead and say oh, he died at the end of 5.3. It literally means nothing because he was just shoved into Graha. He still continues to live on in him and gives us the annoying fanboy moments that take away from the story. If he had actually died there and didn’t plot device himself out? Yeah, i’d have probably felt some emotions. That’s what i mean though. We know everything is going to be okay for the scions so the emotional impact just isn’t there. Again, this community can’t seem to handle it at all, still crying over Haurchefant 6 years later. Haurchefant, Ysayle, Papalymo, look at the effect they had on both the cast AND the story itself, with constant dialogue options being a reference to them. Those deaths and events were literally what made the story and it’s why ShB runs so dull and dry for me. Despite it being advertised as the darkest and grimmest expansion there’s nothing there to really support that. It’s pretty bad when the expansion that’s advertised like that is the expansion with the least amount of both consequences and death. If we’re facing powerful foes beyond our power yes, i expect people to suffer injuries of some kind or die. Why is that so illogical? They’ve done it in every single other ff. Hell, 13-2 had the main antag literally kill the main protag at the end because he was so powerful. They’ve done it all the time in past ff’s and it’s what’s made things impactful, but because of marketing i guess they decide they can’t do that lmao. Idk how i’m “missing the forest for the trees”. It just seems to me like you’re making up a lot of excuses and headcanon to try and make it seem like there aren’t apparent plot holes and messy writing with the story when there obviously is. It’s pretty bad when one of your supporting claims as to why Graha faked his rest was because “uwu he wanted to talk to you.” What is this a slice of life anime?.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Honestly her death had little impact to me because I knew it was coming. It was so heavily foreshadowed.

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Are you familiar with the original concept of FFXV?
There is a Trailer for the game that is....VERY different from the Finish Product we got, that showed what the game was suppose to be. Her death, would have had ALOT more meaning and impact in that version of the game.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Are you familiar with the original concept of FFXV?
There is a Trailer for the game that is....VERY different from the Finish Product we got, that showed what the game was suppose to be. Her death, would have had ALOT more meaning and impact in that version of the game.

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Oh I know the original concept. Still doesn't change the finished product though.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Oh I know the original concept. Still doesn't change the finished product though.

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In the original FFXV basically everyone dies.