So, can we just ban damage meters already.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Lmao, imagine thinking enmity = DPS.

By that logic whoever is MT must be pulling huge numbers because they're number one.

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Don't know why you laughing because he's absolutely correct. Or do you not know how Tank stance work?

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Lmao, imagine thinking enmity = DPS.

By that logic whoever is MT must be pulling huge numbers because they're number one.

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You need to shift your view a little bit on enmity of 5.0 rather than before it's time and you'd see Juicymama makes a point. Well, it's a point that stands most of the times.

In a clean fight, where no one's carrying leftover stacks and whatnot, the dps enmity is an accurate thing if you exclude the obvious tank enmity. A dps in a dgn that ends up at the 4th position who hasn't died means something's not quite right and it's usually obvious. Even if there was an initial strong burst, over time, the only job that's supposed to be at 4th is the healer.

Enmity is incredibly accurate this expansion to measure which DPS is doing more damage. All aggro dump and enmity reduction skills have been removed, so the only thing they have left that can affect their aggro is their own *damage output*.

This only applies to damage dealers though. Obviously healers and tanks can generate threat by other means.

It feels like they made the fights even more overtuned in terms of DPS required to clear while also doubling down on the ToS and fear mongering. People would rather leave and disband entire groups over mentioning that someone may not be pulling their weight. If someone were to get kicked or replaced, it'll be silently and they'll receive no feedback or reason as to why.

Is this really the type of raiding community we want to foster?

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Originally Posted by Coatl

It feels like they made the fights even more overtuned in terms of DPS required to clear while also doubling down on the ToS and fear mongering. People would rather leave and disband entire groups over mentioning that someone may not be pulling their weight. If someone were to get kicked or replaced, it'll be silently and they'll receive no feedback or reason as to why.

Is this really the type of raiding community we want to foster?

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Wither you've been extremely unlucky or i've been extremely lucky.

That is not my experience in general.

How about, as a tentative first step, they added an official ingame parser, but only for SSS, Extreme, Savage and Ultimate content?

This is content they absolutely know we parse anyway and where you're expected to optimize your rotation and gear to beat dps checks.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

Enmity is incredibly accurate this expansion to measure which DPS is doing more damage. All aggro dump and enmity reduction skills have been removed, so the only thing they have left that can affect their aggro is their own *damage output*.

This only applies to damage dealers though. Obviously healers and tanks can generate threat by other means.

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This is correct, just going to point out that some utility can generate aggro or buff the aggro of other players etc.. so it'll never be as accurate as an actual DPS meter, though i agree it's miles better than it was pre 5.0

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Originally Posted by Juicymama

in a boss fight if no one dies, and the enmity ranking shows tank 1 dps 2 healer 3 dps 4, I will tell the dps 4 who isn't pulling his/her weight to go read a guide. especially in a sync dung, given both dps are synced.

don't even need a parser to tell who is underperforming dps wise.

The length of the enmity bar is also a good comparison between the 2 dps.

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Enmity doesn't equal DPS, also what about casters using Lucid Dreaming?

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

Enmity doesn't equal DPS, also what about casters using Lucid Dreaming?

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Lucid doesn't aggro cut anymore, to my knowledge.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Lucid doesn't aggro cut anymore, to my knowledge.

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It doesn't. DPS don't have skills to reduce aggro anymore, so enmity can point out which DPS is doing less than the other DPS.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

This. /end thread.

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Your sig gave me cancer.

It's amazing. Ive never run in to this. In 6 years. Not once. But ok.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

It doesn't. DPS don't have skills to reduce aggro anymore, so enmity can point out which DPS is doing less than the other DPS.

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Kind of... enmity doesn't take into account buffs from others, and it's a strict ranking rather than an actual gauge of anything other than how much enmity has been generated against this target. One tank death or one add phase and it becomes a totally useless measure of dps.

No, if you want to measure dps, measure it.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Kind of... enmity doesn't take into account buffs from others, and it's a strict ranking rather than an actual gauge of anything other than how much enmity has been generated against this target. One tank death or one add phase and it becomes a totally useless measure of dps.

No, if you want to measure dps, measure it.

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Also, it only provides relative measurement at best. Like, oh nice I'm second in aggro as a DPS, I must be doing great ! Whereas in reality, both DPS do an absolutely terrible job and barely reach 50% of what DPS output they could do, it's just that one is a Sam and buffed by the other, a Dancer.

As you said, and you are completely right, if one wants to know his DPS, there is no other way than to measure it, properly and accurately, with the proper tools.

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

Also, it only provides relative measurement at best. Like, oh nice I'm second in aggro as a DPS, I must be doing great ! Whereas in reality, both DPS do an absolutely terrible job and barely reach 50% of what DPS output they could do, it's just that one is a Sam and buffed by the other, a Dancer.

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That's just being technical. If a DPS only doing 50% of required damage and are 2nd on enmity, then that means the whole group (including the tanks and healers) are being terrible, and you would be like 50% behind of the fight which will be very noticeable. This kind of hyperbolic argument while techinically is correct, is meaningless in term of practical situation.

Is it a perfect tool? No. But a good metric for estimation in 90% of case it still is.

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

Mentioning it
Mentioning that someone's damange is lower then someone
Pasting numbers


It's enough to get a GM's attention it.
Running a meter is tolerated as long as it's used for yourself only and not against someone ingame.

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First, if possible, lock the log file so external programs can't read it.

Second, Provide in-game performance feedback so players will know how they're doing:

1. In group content, after you leave group, you get a report that gives your rank (4th, 5th, etc) relative to all the others. No number, just your damage or healing position.

2. When solo, give total damage for any encounter after you leave combat. If anyone else is nearby, with same level and a close item level, display their performance as well for comparision.

How can one improve if they don't know they need to?

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Originally Posted by SamSmoot

How can one improve if they don't know they need to?

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The people who want to improve use the corresponding tools and knowledge sources already. The rest does not want to improve, but they also want to be carried through content that requires everyone in the party to deliver, while the don't want anyone to have the ability to see that they don't deliver ^^

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Lucid doesn't aggro cut anymore, to my knowledge.

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All this time I've been using LD whilst tanks sprint in expert rouls to wall-to-wall pulls whilst I spread dots /cry

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

All this time I've been using LD whilst tanks sprint in expert rouls to wall-to-wall pulls whilst I spread dots /cry

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That's probably fine. Unless you're some kind of damage over time beast it's unlikely the 3 ticks of dot damage will be enough to overaggro even a single tank aoe. Tanks produce just an absurd amount of aggro now even with just a single attack. I've nearly pulled aggro during a pull with a dance finisher, but those do a ton of damage especially to the first target... even then the number of times one of those has done a direct crit and actually pulled aggro during a pull I could count on one hand.

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Originally Posted by SamSmoot

How can one improve if they don't know they need to?

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Simplest way? Tighter DPS checks and Enrages. Punish players in Normal content for having poor dps. While I wont say that this is always the case, Ive seen plenty of logs where players are in 450 gear doing 3-4k dps as a monk, RDM, BLM, etc. Mind you, with some of these classes, literally spamming one skill can net you higher damage. There is very little in the way of excuses for doing such suboptimal damage when you have this gear, and frankly the devs need to push normal content harder and force players to get better and understand their classes. It would honestly help a lot in many aspects of the game. Itd be tough on certain players, and possibly cause a few to quit, but many of the complaints we hear would end up resolved by allowing for more difficult and unique design in the game

I'm pretty sure you can just report them for toxicity and be fine.

Damage meters are actually used for good things though, so banning them completely probably isn't the best. Like raiding groups who train together to be able to know who is doing well in their group. Unwarranted "advice" is technically toxicity, though.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Simplest way? Tighter DPS checks and Enrages. Punish players in Normal content for having poor dps. While I wont say that this is always the case, Ive seen plenty of logs where players are in 450 gear doing 3-4k dps as a monk, RDM, BLM, etc. Mind you, with some of these classes, literally spamming one skill can net you higher damage. There is very little in the way of excuses for doing such suboptimal damage when you have this gear, and frankly the devs need to push normal content harder and force players to get better and understand their classes. It would honestly help a lot in many aspects of the game. Itd be tough on certain players, and possibly cause a few to quit, but many of the complaints we hear would end up resolved by allowing for more difficult and unique design in the game

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I do not disagree, and would like to see normal content stress proper competence in role and actually doing mechanics instead of teaching players mechanics can be ignored if the healer can deal with it (while I don't disagree with alternative solutions to mechanics, pass the buck to the healer should not be the baseline).

However, the question then becomes this: how do we make it clear to poor players that it's their fault? How do we teach a bad tank that it wasn't the healer's fault they died, vice versa? How do we get a poor DPS to realize that they're the reason the party isn't getting past the enrage, instead of them projecting fault onto the rest of the party? Harder content stops poor players from coasting through, and I have hope that many people would realize a need to improve, but I also have fears there will be those who will never look at a wipe and say to themselves "I contributed to or caused that."

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Simplest way? Tighter DPS checks and Enrages. Punish players in Normal content for having poor dps. While I wont say that this is always the case, Ive seen plenty of logs where players are in 450 gear doing 3-4k dps as a monk, RDM, BLM, etc. Mind you, with some of these classes, literally spamming one skill can net you higher damage. There is very little in the way of excuses for doing such suboptimal damage when you have this gear, and frankly the devs need to push normal content harder and force players to get better and understand their classes. It would honestly help a lot in many aspects of the game. Itd be tough on certain players, and possibly cause a few to quit, but many of the complaints we hear would end up resolved by allowing for more difficult and unique design in the game

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If that’s going to cause people to quit like you said what’s the financial incentive for SE to do it? A lot of people might be complaining sure but it’s just that complaining they aren’t canceling their subs over it.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Simplest way? Tighter DPS checks and Enrages. Punish players in Normal content for having poor dps.

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I doubt this will happen because SE is in business of making money and punishing players at every turn will get them to quit... which is very bad for business. Just look at what happened to Wildstar, they tried that... didn't end well for them. Like it or not, this is supposed to be a very accessible theme park MMO, SE's own words.

Even if meters were allowed, I don't think that will change very many people's DPS output. Yes, you can show them what they are doing wrong but more often than not, they will stick with what there used to. I accept that I am absolutely horrible at some jobs but thankfully, the Trust system exists so I can level my DRG and NIN and MNK and ETC to 80 without making others suffer.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

While I wont say that this is always the case, Ive seen plenty of logs where players are in 450 gear doing 3-4k dps as a monk, RDM, BLM, etc.

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Problem is: They usually don't know that they're the problem. Best ase is they say nothing, worst case is they start blaming the party. Making the content harder would just lead to them blaming the party more, bc we know that in an MMO it's always everyone else's fault and everyone but they themself is toxic ^^

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I doubt this will happen because SE is in business of making money and punishing players at every turn will get them to quit... which is very bad for business. Just look at what happened to Wildstar, they tried that... didn't end well for them. Like it or not, this is supposed to be a very accessible theme park MMO, SE's own words.

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You need a middle ground though. Wildstar definitely made the mistake of marketing too much to hardcore players. On the otherhand, WoW (among other issues) has made the mistake of making their game more and more accessible and have been on a steep decline in subscribers ever since WoD. Their classes simply stopped being fun to play, their casual content had less mechanics that mattered, loot rained from the sky and players got bored within a few weeks.

The middle ground ideally is accessible to all players, but has a high skill ceiling and lots of depth, with content on a smooth, consistent increase in difficulty the more you level and higher you go. Easy to learn, hard to master. This way there are always goals for players of every ability. There's always a next step just dangling almost in reach.
FF14 is actually quite good on some of this, but in other ways strays from the path. The gap in difficulty between some content is massive. Sometimes the depth and skill ceiling is removed. Not everything has to be beaten by everyone.

So gonna make this point: If SE tightens fights, making htem harder, yes you will get some players who will quit but that is fine. More players will join up long term, and stay invested long term. The counterintuitive point is that harder games (within reason) have healthier player bases with greater individual investment. They garner more respect broadly in the gaming community, keep engagement longer (because it challanges players and offers nothing for free) and can foster better communities. When you start dumbing down the content and making it casual, you get less player investment. People dont care if they dont try cause they know theyll succeed anyways. Doing 3-4k dps in 450 gear is perfectly fine cause content doesnt require anything from then other then pushing a button or two every few seconds. Entitlement from players being coddled to much and not caring that their lack of engagement requires everyone else to work harder. Elitism crops of much more because the gulf between the skilled and unskilled becomes noticeable. And because of that "You dont pay my sub" mentality that crops up from extreme casual part of the player base, resentment grows as the better players dont like engaging with these lazier players, and these lazier players hate the better players for personal reasons or cause they get hit with resentment. It becomes a mess overall.

yes, Youll see people quit. But it will more likely be players who dont have investment in the game in any regards, and the casual base (read average players) would be more likely in favor of the harder content if it meant a challenge that meant something. If you dont think thats the case, how often do we see threads pop up here or on reddit requesting more mid tier content (stuff thats not savage, but harder than normal content). And with increased difficulty, you can increase savage and EX, satisfy the hardcore base more, and draw in players who want a fun but challenging experience.

As a thought that popped into my head to drive this home: Sometimes it is better for a business to change its audience a bit to attract more players, even if that means a small subset of players leave. Weve seen this already: Harder MMOs dumbed downwards to broaden their player base so more people can participate. That was necessary. But the pendulum has swung to far now. MMOs are investing to heavily in the 'casual' scene - forsaking harder content out of fears the best bet is to appeal to the lowest common denominator. This ends up leaving the game filled with unskilled players who arent invested, and dissatisfying players who are looking for a challenge. It is very much the case that game devs have begun forgetting that part of the appeal of a game is the challenge involved. Youll catch more players now and hold their attention longer (as well as get them to invest more than a monthly sub) with a more challenging experience than if they keep simplifying and trying to appease players who have no investment in the game in of itself.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

You need a middle ground though. Wildstar definitely made the mistake of marketing too much to hardcore players. On the otherhand, WoW (among other issues) has made the mistake of making their game more and more accessible and have been on a steep decline in subscribers ever since WoD. Their classes simply stopped being fun to play, their casual content had less mechanics that mattered, loot rained from the sky and players got bored within a few weeks.

The middle ground ideally is accessible to all players, but has a high skill ceiling and lots of depth, with content on a smooth, consistent increase in difficulty the more you level and higher you go. Easy to learn, hard to master. This way there are always goals for players of every ability. There's always a next step just dangling almost in reach.
FF14 is actually quite good on some of this, but in other ways strays from the path. The gap in difficulty between some content is massive. Sometimes the depth and skill ceiling is removed. Not everything has to be beaten by everyone.

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I going to disagree with you. The main problem with the current triple AAA industry is trying to make games for everyone instead of certain demographic and adapt the budgets to realistic numbers. The bigger FFXIV the worst is going to get.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

I going to disagree with you. The main problem with the current triple AAA industry is trying to make games for everyone instead of certain demographic and adapt the budgets to realistic numbers. The bigger FFXIV the worst is going to get.

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Theres a point when you go to broad it appeals to no one and no one doesnt get invested. I think thats the core issue - investment is probably down per player in the market, and game companies are relying on whales to heavily. In a nutshell, It's 'fast food' gaming. A game title might make more profit with a smaller but more heavily dedicated player base with a Trim but efficient budget, but theyre to caught up in this idea a game has to appeal to every single person ever.

I honestly think we are currently at a good balance of difficulty curve.

Extreme Innocence and Tatiana are prime examples for the sheer amount of enrages people hit. While Eden normal is for people to experience the story. Savage is has a decent difficulty curve. and once an Ultimate comes around that is suppose to be the toughest of the toughest.

The issue for most of the complains that this game is too easy and accessable is because SE philosophy is asking people to not kill themselves over the game like some of the truly hardcore would. Time and time again in interviews they state that "we are very honored you play your game, but please take a break its ok well still be here when you come back." you can tangibly see it in their game design.

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Originally Posted by Arthrun

I honestly think we are currently at a good balance of difficulty curve.

Extreme Innocence and Tatiana are prime examples for the sheer amount of enrages people hit. While Eden normal is for people to experience the story. Savage is has a decent difficulty curve. and once an Ultimate comes around that is suppose to be the toughest of the toughest.

The issue for most of the complains that this game is too easy and accessable is because SE philosophy is asking people to not kill themselves over the game like some of the truly hardcore would. Time and time again in interviews they state that "we are very honored you play your game, but please take a break its ok well still be here when you come back." you can tangibly see it in their game design.

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I disagree. You can have an absurd amount of deaths in EX Primals now. People have cleared with upwards of fifteen because they're scaled so incredibly low for a supposedly "harder" fight. When people ask for content to be harder, they aren't wanting it to be super difficult. They're wanting it to not be braindead. Eden Normal is practically impossible to fail unless the entire group has never done it before. Now I don't think it should be crazy hard. Just something above "I have a pulse."

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I disagree. You can have an absurd amount of deaths in EX Primals now. People have cleared with upwards of fifteen because they're scaled so incredibly low for a supposedly "harder" fight. When people ask for content to be harder, they aren't wanting it to be super difficult. They're wanting it to not be braindead. Eden Normal is practically impossible to fail unless the entire group has never done it before. Now I don't think it should be crazy hard. Just something above "I have a pulse."

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Gotta disagree. I think we're at a great balance atm. If you want tougher, that's coming.

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Originally Posted by BigBossCL

Gotta disagree. I think we're at a great balance atm. If you want tougher, that's coming.

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When content is so easy half the party could AFK and you'd clear no problem. I don't see how that's "great balance." Citing Ultimate misses the point. Like I said, I don't want everything to Ultimate level. I just think it's poorly designed that everything below Savage is essentially one big participation ribbon. As someone who has cleared Ultimate, I still like dabbling in other content that doesn't require nearly that level of commitment. Unfortunately, the game doesn't offer much in that regard because everything is so easy.

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Originally Posted by Arthrun

I honestly think we are currently at a good balance of difficulty curve.

Extreme Innocence and Tatiana are prime examples for the sheer amount of enrages people hit. While Eden normal is for people to experience the story. Savage is has a decent difficulty curve. and once an Ultimate comes around that is suppose to be the toughest of the toughest.

The issue for most of the complains that this game is too easy and accessable is because SE philosophy is asking people to not kill themselves over the game like some of the truly hardcore would. Time and time again in interviews they state that "we are very honored you play your game, but please take a break its ok well still be here when you come back." you can tangibly see it in their game design.

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These fights arent hard, thats the point. They can be punishing when you do make mistakes, but they are not hard encounters. A few problems people have is they think that you have to be hardcore and spend every waking minute practicing things to beat these fights. But both EX modes just require you to really understand how the mechanic operates. You see a stack marker, you stack. You see a slow wind up cast towards the tank, probably a tank buster. See someone with a red marker, probably an aoe on their location, they need to move out from group. Most mechanics have you simply stand in a specific place. If you have an ok understanding of your job, and of the mechanics, its purely an issue of executing. And it really isnt that hard. Maybe a little practice and a few wipes.

What is honestly expected of you in these fights isnt anything that youd "Kill Yourself" over doing. If were talking savage, thats a bit more coodination and effort, and its understandable if people dont want to do that. But current EX mode is where I feel the casual player should be at skill wise. That should be roughly how difficult the final boss of a lvl 80 post MSQ dungeon should be. A fight that if you understand how the mechanics work and your class, youll have no issue downing the boss. And that is how EX mode is. Its only something youll kill yourself over if you have no idea how to play your class or have no idea how boss mechanics work. How many tanks Ive seen who dont CD tank busters and get mad at healers cause they didnt keep them alive. Or before ShB, how many tanks just spammed their aggro combo the entire fight, never once using a more powerful DPS combo. How many healers Ive seen stand at the very edge of an arena and spam AoE heals and watch the party wipe not realizing your AoE heal has a range. Or argue that all they need to do is heal, and if no one needs healing they just stand there doing nothing. How many DPS who stand in Avoidable AoEs while they sit there and spam one or two skills thinking that they dont have to move, and then die to DPS checks or debuffs. Its all ok cause healer just res you! Not an issue! And if they dont have swift cast, demand they res you with a hardcast. There are a lot of players who really do phone it in. Not all, and there are plenty more who want to learn and get better - they just need the right environment. But this idea that having basic understanding of the class you play or how a fight operates is "Killing yourself" is just an excuse IMO for players to not care. And when better players see this, and have to carry someone phoning it in, it burns their chaps usually.

I would rather have in my party players who want to learn and improve and seek out challenges to do just that, then players who say EX mode is 'to hard' and they shouldnt have to kill themselves on a fight to get loot or mounts or etc.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

These fights arent hard, thats the point. They can be punishing when you do make mistakes, but they are not hard encounters. A few problems people have is they think that you have to be hardcore and spend every waking minute practicing things to beat these fights. But both EX modes just require you to really understand how the mechanic operates. You see a stack marker, you stack. You see a slow wind up cast towards the tank, probably a tank buster. See someone with a red marker, probably an aoe on their location, they need to move out from group. Most mechanics have you simply stand in a specific place. If you have an ok understanding of your job, and of the mechanics, its purely an issue of executing. And it really isnt that hard. Maybe a little practice and a few wipes.

What is honestly expected of you in these fights isnt anything that youd "Kill Yourself" over doing. If were talking savage, thats a bit more coodination and effort, and its understandable if people dont want to do that. But current EX mode is where I feel the casual player should be at skill wise. That should be roughly how difficult the final boss of a lvl 80 post MSQ dungeon should be. A fight that if you understand how the mechanics work and your class, youll have no issue downing the boss. And that is how EX mode is. Its only something youll kill yourself over if you have no idea how to play your class or have no idea how boss mechanics work. How many tanks Ive seen who dont CD tank busters and get mad at healers cause they didnt keep them alive. Or before ShB, how many tanks just spammed their aggro combo the entire fight, never once using a more powerful DPS combo. How many healers Ive seen stand at the very edge of an arena and spam AoE heals and watch the party wipe not realizing your AoE heal has a range. Or argue that all they need to do is heal, and if no one needs healing they just stand there doing nothing. How many DPS who stand in Avoidable AoEs while they sit there and spam one or two skills thinking that they dont have to move, and then die to DPS checks or debuffs. Its all ok cause healer just res you! Not an issue! And if they dont have swift cast, demand they res you with a hardcast. There are a lot of players who really do phone it in. Not all, and there are plenty more who want to learn and get better - they just need the right environment. But this idea that having basic understanding of the class you play or how a fight operates is "Killing yourself" is just an excuse IMO for players to not care. And when better players see this, and have to carry someone phoning it in, it burns their chaps usually.

I would rather have in my party players who want to learn and improve and seek out challenges to do just that, then players who say EX mode is 'to hard' and they shouldnt have to kill themselves on a fight to get loot or mounts or etc.

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I do not disagree with you. and do too believe casuals should be at extreme trial levels.

However: skilled players like me and yourself Will consider fights that we can learn and get down regularly simple and easy fights. I am coming from a mythic raider in Warcraft. FFXIV seems so easy to me but for whatever reason I enjoy it so much more than the mechanic heavy fights like in Crucible of storms or Azshara's eternal palace.

You also have to understand that some come to FFXIV because they are too shy or consider Extreme trials or Mythic raiding too stressful for them to even want to do them. Darksouls is a beloved game. But I absolutely will consider that game trash because I think that games that rely solely on their difficulty to be decent is not a decent game at all.

back on topic. I currently enjoy the difficulty within FFXIV because I do not feel stressed while playing on extreme or savage. And people have to understand that YES there are those out there that are very skilled but do consider Extreme stressful to them. If I want the stress of difficulty I would go play WoW's Mythic +22. or smack my head on mythic Azshara.

I play FFXIV because I feel like I can relax and enjoy myself I do extreme and savage because I do not consider them all that bad. But there are others who find those boss fights very stressful. lets take Persona 5 as an example. I play that game on normal difficulty. Not enough to be mind dumb like its easy mode is. but not annoying like hard is. I can also garentee why fire emblem awakening is so popular was because it had super casual mode. Which made it accessible to inexperienced players....which then the veterans would yell at them because they are not playing at classic hard mode.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

I would rather have in my party players who want to learn and improve and seek out challenges to do just that, then players who say EX mode is 'to hard' and they shouldnt have to kill themselves on a fight to get loot or mounts or etc.

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But it is too hard. It's why I don't do Savage or EX, I can't memorize all of that stuff that is happening. Individual mechanics is fine but once they start over lapping and causing havoc is when I get into trouble, I can't deal with multi-tasking like that, it's too much. I've done a few EX's and they are not fun. Current difficulty is fine. It's why everything is easy, because not everyone has that skill level that you claim everyone playing the game should have. Can you imagine EX level msq bosses? Most casuals (which includes me) would never be able to progress through the story because they are stuck on that one boss (remembers Shinryu nightmare when it first came out).

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Originally Posted by AphraelAmarantha

But it is too hard. It's why I don't do Savage or EX, I can't memorize all of that stuff that is happening. Individual mechanics is fine but once they start over lapping and causing havoc is when I get into trouble, I can't deal with multi-tasking like that, it's too much.

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I also identify as a casual, and just saying from experience, you're probably being too hard on yourself and just need more practice.
Back when leviathan ex came out, I thought I'd never be able to do it, due to all the mechanics, and my not so good ping. But it turned out I could, I just needed a little more practice.
It ended up being my favourite EX for many years, and I used it for light farming for relics, and it was the very first ex mount in my collection.

Something being really hard is not a bad thing. The greater the challenge, the greater the relief and joy when you beat it. Sure it can be frustrating, but frustration is part of the experience, and you can learn to enjoy the frustration also.


Also... #AddMorePvPToFFXIV :D (but honestly, what I have found, is that PvP trains your awareness and reaction times, and can make you play better in PvE content.)

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Originally Posted by AphraelAmarantha

But it is too hard. It's why I don't do Savage or EX, I can't memorize all of that stuff that is happening. Individual mechanics is fine but once they start over lapping and causing havoc is when I get into trouble, I can't deal with multi-tasking like that, it's too much. I've done a few EX's and they are not fun. Current difficulty is fine. It's why everything is easy, because not everyone has that skill level that you claim everyone playing the game should have. Can you imagine EX level msq bosses? Most casuals (which includes me) would never be able to progress through the story because they are stuck on that one boss (remembers Shinryu nightmare when it first came out).

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You get a like because you are a example of what my posts were talking about. And I honestly would rather have more players to hang out with than to have super hard story content just to appease some arbitrary % of the player base.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

Sure it can be frustrating, but frustration is part of the experience, and you can learn to enjoy the frustration also.


Also... #AddMorePvPToFFXIV :D

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lol, I hate being frustrated. If a game frustrates me, I just zone out and stop playing. While I don't mind mild difficulty, I shouldn't be getting frustrated and angry at a video game, it's just a game. I play games to have fun, being frustrated is not fun. When I get to that point and it is just too difficult, I just quit because I am no longer having fun.

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Originally Posted by AphraelAmarantha

lol, I hate being frustrated. If a game frustrates me, I just zone out and stop playing. While I don't mind mild difficulty, I shouldn't be getting frustrated and angry at a video game, it's just a game. I play games to have fun, being frustrated is not fun. When I get to that point and it is just too difficult, I just quit because I am no longer having fun.

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I guess we differ there XD Frustration has its own kind of fun for me, and I think that's why the dark souls series have so many people play it.
I've played vidya games for 20 years now, and if I quit just because the game got frustrating, there wouldn't be many games I have completed. XD

If there's no challenge at all, it just bores me. I tend to quit for the day after doing a lvl 50/60/70 roulette, as I just end up getting bored and sleepy.
So those in the thread who ask for more challenge are probably at the skill level where everything bores them, and they need something with more teeth.