Death Penalty

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Originally Posted by geniusprime

It is a penalty if it is NOT my intentions to die. Folks using death in this manner is clearly showing that traveling is flawed.

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Impressive. You manage to spin the situation *and* dodge the actual argument all in one statement.

Nonetheless, that's all you're doing, and that dog won't hunt.

It's not just a FFXIV thing, it's a MMO's in general thing.

Death is used for convenient travel in myriad other MMOs... all of them being of the "casual friendly" nature that SE is attempting with XIV. It's used as such because death has zero sting, zero meaningful consequence.

There's no reason to serious try to avoid dying because dying is absolutely meaningless.

And again, no matter how many times some folks might repeat the mantra that "dying is enough punishment itself to try to avoid it", it doesn't pan out in practice. All you need to do is spend some time in a casual-friendly MMO with a lax death penalty and witness how people actually play it. Go up to people in FFXIV zombie-zerging their way to victory in a guildleve, or people "graveyard hopping" their way across the map in other similarly "casual" MMOs and ask them how much of an incentive the "failure of dying itself" is for them to try avoiding it. It's an oft repeated meme that is not supported by reality.

If the death penalty is so inconsequential that players find it to be a convenient mode of transportation - even when flight paths, teleports, warp scrolls and other various modes of travel are available, convenient and plentiful - there's a problem with the penalty for dying.. not with the travel system.

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Originally Posted by geniusprime

Let me make this clearer. I believe there are better methods than death penalty that would encourage gamers to want to be more successful at engaging enemies and that if there are DP, it should be done in a way that does not prevent or delay the gamer from playing.

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You're not prevented or delayed from playing. You have a "whopping" 3 minute weakened state, in which time you'll likely be spending getting back to where ever you were in the first place. You can even fight stuff while weakened, if you pick your fights carefully and don't make foolish or reckless decisions. But, again, I suspect that's the real issue at play here; that whole nagging "having to play carefully" thing.

Seriously, you're making this huge deal about a 3 minute period of time that is already counting down by the time you come out of black-screen back at the crystal and are ready to run back out.

You're trying to make a mountain into a mole-hill, trying to paint something as a "problem" that, clearly, not a whole lot of people seem to share your views on.

Seriously... Just come out and say it already. Stop dancing and spinning yourself around the point you're really trying to make: You want death to be pointless so you can play however you want, die as much as you want and never be so much as even *slightly* inconvenienced for doing so.

Just come out and say it already.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Impressive. You manage to spin the situation *and* dodge the actual argument all in one statement.

Nonetheless, that's all you're doing, and that dog won't hunt.

It's not just a FFXIV thing, it's a MMO's in general thing.

Death is used for convenient travel in myriad other MMOs... all of them being of the "casual friendly" nature that SE is attempting with XIV. It's used as such because death has zero sting, zero meaningful consequence.

If the death penalty is so inconsequential that players find it to be a convenient mode of transportation - even when flight paths, teleports, warp scrolls and other various modes of travel are available, convenient and plentiful - there's a problem with the penalty for dying.. not with the travel system.

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uhh i death warped in FFXI, i just had a class i didnt care about. And why should death matter when it doesnt matter. Dying in town by drinking a poison potion really should be the same as fighting some epic god?

death penalties dont even make sense, it ends up usually being a time sink by the end of the game, because any content worth being entertaining end game, should have a chance of killing you. So if your designing a game knowing that you will kill people (hello dynamis suicide pulls and NM with Death spells) then why are you going to turn around and tell them they have to go level up for 10% more of their tnl because they suck so bad that they played exactly as they were supposed to.

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Originally Posted by Chezen

I was thinking like you for a while, but I realized there is an element of danger that is missing when there isn't a good death penelty, and I have to say I miss it. It's not about punishment, it's about pushing the thrill of the game. I personally think the death penalty should be a little stiffer.

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I agree, a stiffer death penalty would make the game much more exciting! I miss having a real death penalty [FFXI], the current system makes dying a minor inconvenience at most.

I don't necessarily think XP loss is necessary (although it would be better than nothing), but something along the lines of anima reduction for a 'return' would be a big enough penalty to make me focus a bit more, and stop watching television shows during important fights. This penalty could be avoided by being 'raised'.

Death used to carry some weight, please bring back the Not-dying reward. ;)

+1 for the post.

Seriously? When I came from EQ I thought the death penalty in FFXI was light. Not having to run back to a corpse to collect my gear took away most of the fear associated with death. By comparison, FFXIV's death penalty is already a joke.

Also, in a single player game, a simple game over can mean hours of lost time in between save points. So using that as a analogy for removing any penalty at all in an MMO isn't comparing apples to apples. It doesn't take hours to get anywhere in FFXIV, even without anima.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

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I find it amazing how folks would get so offended by a proposition that is different to their point of view. Its almost like I am cursing their mom. I stated my view and restated many times and then I am being told by you that my intentions are different. Are you even reading what is being stated?

I have read a few posts which I was in agreement with and these folks gave alternatives are still using death penalty but, in your mind I want to make death pointless or as another as another poster claim remove strategy from the game.

Its even more funny that you took the time to respond to the point which I clearly indicated the use of non death penalty AND death penalty and yet you still claim that I want to make death pointless.

If you disagree with me, thats fine but there is no need for all of "this" nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Jaide

Seriously? When I came from EQ I thought the death penalty in FFXI was light. Not having to run back to a corpse to collect my gear took away most of the fear associated with death. By comparison, FFXIV's death penalty is already a joke.

Also, in a single player game, a simple game over can mean hours of lost time in between save points. So using that as a analogy for removing any penalty at all in an MMO isn't comparing apples to apples. It doesn't take hours to get anywhere in FFXIV, even without anima.

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only if for some reason you chose not to save, which is often like anywhere in the overworld, and 2-3 places in a dungeon, usually conviently placed close to anything that might kill you.

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Originally Posted by Jaide

Seriously? When I came from EQ I thought the death penalty in FFXI was light. Not having to run back to a corpse to collect my gear took away most of the fear associated with death. By comparison, FFXIV's death penalty is already a joke.

Also, in a single player game, a simple game over can mean hours of lost time in between save points. So using that as a analogy for removing any penalty at all in an MMO isn't comparing apples to apples. It doesn't take hours to get anywhere in FFXIV, even without anima.

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Come on. What single player game requires HOURS of replaying when you die? (except Steel Battalion). Save points are not scarce in most single player games. The point that was being made is that death penalty is NOT the only method of achieving a sense of danger and or the need for strategy. To think that it is the ONLY way is very short sighted.

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Originally Posted by geniusprime

Probably I don't play those archaic games but I am not aware of any modern game that still gives the DP you mentioned except for FFXI. So referring to old ancient MMO or stating games in which its worse does not make the current DP in this games and other games justifiable.

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Try Lord of the Rings online, return to local death point (just like ffxiv) but with 10minute sickness. ffxiv only has 3mins!

So there are other games that provide death penalty. Lord of the Rings online is just one. Try googling or actually playing some other mmo's before you make statements you dont know much about ! Otherwise you will just sound like an idiot XD

wow I hope you're trolling, what death penalty? waiting 3 whole minutes? give me a break. as people have stated there are a lot of mmos that had REAL death penalties such as losing xp. These games arent archaic, don't be stupid. FFXIV's death penalty is one of the easiest on the market, you dont even have to run to your corpse to pick up your stuff like every other modern WoW clone out there. there's always gonna be some noob crying about something I suppose. Even if the vast majority agrees that it's a non-issue. You should be penalized for dying, MAYBE YOU'LL PLAY SMARTER THEN AND NOT FIGHT SOMETHING A LOT HIGHER LVL THAN YOU DERP. This is to prevent you zerging your way through a leve/quest, in which you would be able to kill something you normally wouldnt be able to by getting it to half health, dying, then immediately running back to the mob to finish it off. Find something RELEVANT to cry about.