#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

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Originally Posted by RyuezaneWithersoul

This entire fourm is kind of pointless. just play other classes if you hate what you saw in the mediatour. and now dawntrail is out just play different classes if ya'll not happy with how healers are atm.
Personally this strike makes me just wanna level a healer job and just do try to do everything i have unlocked.

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PLEASE I BEG YOU do it and fasten my pictomancer and viper queue

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Originally Posted by Revash

Just to play the Devil's advocate.
Feedback is not a legal court order. They can act upon it, they can take partial parts from it, they can discard it completely. I used to "scream alot" back in WoW..but eventually I understood that. I can go to their HQ and stomp my feet all I want and they still can do what they want with their product and nobody can "force" them do it otherwise.
Can only affect them "indirectly" with wallets if their financial analysts start yelling that they are going in the red and etc.

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if we disliked the game, then that would be the logical option.

however, many do not hate the game or SE, we just want to get feedback out there that healer is in a serious way and they have been killing it for a while. quitting means we cannot post feedback... so, you telling us to quit to silence the feedback?

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Originally Posted by Revash

Just to play the Devil's advocate.
Feedback is not a legal court order. They can act upon it, they can take partial parts from it, they can discard it completely. I used to "scream alot" back in WoW..but eventually I understood that. I can go to their HQ and stomp my feet all I want and they still can do what they want with their product and nobody can "force" them do it otherwise.
Can only affect them "indirectly" with wallets if their financial analysts start yelling that they are going in the red and etc.

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I can't fault you for not reading 600 pages, but this was already discussed ad nauseam. This is a copy/paste of my response to people who have seriously and continiously tried to get people supporting the strike to unsubscribe. And since I don't have anything else to add it works well enough again.

- The intent of the strike, or the people supporting the strike, is not to unsubscribe.
- Unsubscribing from FF brings into question the feedback itself, it's quite likely devs are less eager to listen to feedback from unsubscribed players.
- There isn't a way to let the devs know why a specific account unsubscribed, that could be for any number of reasons and will likely get drowned out by the huge changes in subscriber numbers that come with any new expansion.
- Your attempts at convincing people to unsubscribe are unwanted, and it's frankly non of your business what services other people subscribe to.
- Continued attempt to convince people to unsubscribe cross the line from unwanted to creepy.
- It's a disingenuous advice. The unsubscribe argument is a transparent attempt to dismiss the complaints, by claiming they aren't serious since healers are unwilling to unsubscribe. That has never been a valid argument to counter any form of player feedback.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

if we disliked the game, then that would be the logical option.

however, many do not hate the game or SE, we just want to get feedback out there that healer is in a serious way and they have been killing it for a while. quitting means we cannot post feedback... so, you telling us to quit to silence the feedback?

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What I am saying is. You can discuss ideas, post feedback and so forth as much as you like(and like you need mine, some rando internet guy's permission anyway :D ) but I am very skeptical that this strike will achieve anything. SE like any profit based company, base their decisions on profit, market analysis and so forth and not on "emotional forum tantrums". No offense meant. If they see a potential profit gain, they will act and their PR guys will present it as "we listened to feedback and we are the good guys!" but if there is no profit to be gained or they at least see it like that..then....

Edit: While I barely if ever use the FFXIV and if its indeed true that some healers have been posting the same feedback for 6 years without any response from SE. "An absence of an answer is still an answer". And I doubt they are refusing to budge only because they are stubborn oxes. :D

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Originally Posted by Revash

What I am saying is. You can discuss ideas, post feedback and so forth as much as you like(and like you need mine, some rando internet guy's permission anyway :D ) but I am very skeptical that this strike will achieve anything. SE like any profit based company, base their decisions on profit, market analysis and so forth and not on "emotional forum tantrums". No offense meant. If they see a potential profit gain, they will act and their PR guys will present it as "we listened to feedback and we are the good guys!" but if there is no profit to be gained or they at least see it like that..then....

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I mean, I support the strike but I'm still skeptical it'll do anything. Why? Because I've been around long enough to know that SE cares more about supporting the braindead players who will whine about the hard jobs being too complex and how it's unfair they have difficulty leveling the job and want it lobotomized.

SE doesn't care about the dedicated mains to a certain job, all they care about is making every single job accessible to the mediocre masses instead of... I don't know, keeping certain jobs beginner friendly while leaving harder jobs untouched to provide other players some challenge.

Hell, I'd say that SE won the war against healer mains because while yes, they pushed out almost all of the veteran healer mains, they managed to find some Medica/Cure spamming lobotomites to take their place who don't mind the mediocrity that is the healer role.

Hell, by this point healers may as well have a spell that displays subway surfer gameplay on a small screen in the corner because that's the level of player the healing role is attracting nowadays

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

I mean, I support the strike but I'm still skeptical it'll do anything. Why? Because I've been around long enough to know that SE cares more about supporting the braindead players who will whine about the hard jobs being too complex and how it's unfair they have difficulty leveling the job and want it lobotomized.

SE doesn't care about the dedicated mains to a certain job, all they care about is making every single job accessible to the mediocre masses instead of... I don't know, keeping certain jobs beginner friendly while leaving harder jobs untouched to provide other players some challenge.

Hell, I'd say that SE won the war against healer mains because while yes, they pushed out almost all of the veteran healer mains, they managed to find some Medica/Cure spamming lobotomites to take their place who don't mind the mediocrity that is the healer role.

Hell, by this point healers may as well have a spell that displays subway surfer gameplay on a small screen in the corner because that's the level of player the healing role is attracting nowadays

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Well. I agree and thats the thing. SE analysts don't differentiate between "good players or bad". We are just numbers for them. If they see that they lost 1 veteran player but gained 5 super casual slobs(like me. I play FFXIV purely on a casual pleb level :rofl:, had enough of sweatlording in WoW, FFXIV is my vacation) then 5-1=+4, its a "win" in their eyes.

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Originally Posted by Revash

Well. I agree and thats the thing. SE analysts don't differentiate between "good players or bad". We are just numbers for them. If they see that they lost 1 veteran player but gained 5 super casual slobs(like me. I play FFXIV purely on a casual pleb level :rofl:, had enough of sweatlording in WoW, FFXIV is my vacation) then 5-1=+4, its a "win" in their eyes.

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I will note and point out that the Critic comes from all layers of Players from Casual, midcore, hardcore and ultimate players. ^^*
But what i personaly like to point out is the japanese side of the community which btw does also debates our Strike here and has a thread for it (which ironicly gets more community manager attention as this mega thread here xD) does see our points and supports them partialy but the Japanese Side also is firm in there believe that Healers gonna heal not DPS. But in this multiple houndred side long thread one can read a few good ideas :)

I still believe it's less catering to "bad players" specifically and more removing visible gaps in gameplay between all skill levels in order to mask anything players could use to be critical of each other.

But that's not really possible. People will be critical of each other and say nasty things to each other no matter how much you hide their gameplay from one another. You don't need a DPS meter for someone to tell you that you're playing badly. They don't even need to be right. People will find ways to blame their teammates no matter what game they play.

So I do think they're catering to a certain group of players, it's just that those players aren't one specific skill level, but rather people who can't mind their own business.

Other job is easier than mine! Other job gets this toy, why doesn't my job get this toy.

I think it's that and people who want to play jobs for the style or fantasy of playing the job but don't actually like how the job plays. Which I think is a valid complaint if it's coming from the majority of people who main that job. Well, an overwhelming majority. If it's like 51% I think it's a bad move to act on a number like that.

But we can't really know that kind of thing easily.

So yeah, I do think they listen to feedback and look at gameplay metrics, but I think the goal that maintains the bottom line in their eyes is creating gameplay that minimizes friction between players by making them as self responsible for success as possible.

If they have to talk to each other, or one role has to do something that isn't the tank or healer, someone will get yelled at! And that person might cancel their sub.

It's just more of the game failing to facilitate interactions between players. Kind of like the culture around commendations being "just give it to the healer or whoever is left if the healer left too quickly" most of the time. Failed system even if some people use it with actual intention sometimes and commend someone for what they thought was good gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Revash

What I am saying is. You can discuss ideas, post feedback and so forth as much as you like(and like you need mine, some rando internet guy's permission anyway :D ) but I am very skeptical that this strike will achieve anything. SE like any profit based company, base their decisions on profit, market analysis and so forth and not on "emotional forum tantrums". No offense meant. If they see a potential profit gain, they will act and their PR guys will present it as "we listened to feedback and we are the good guys!" but if there is no profit to be gained or they at least see it like that..then....

Edit: While I barely if ever use the FFXIV and if its indeed true that some healers have been posting the same feedback for 6 years without any response from SE. "An absence of an answer is still an answer". And I doubt they are refusing to budge only because they are stubborn oxes. :D

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I would appreciate it if you were a bit more explicit with your intentions. You imply a "you guys should stop providing feedback on the forums, because stuff on the forums will not be listened to anyway" without actually saying the words.

And if that is indeed you mean. Why are you trying to convince other people of that, people that have clearly decided it is worth another try, and have an actual goal (improving the healer role situation in FF). You could have applied that same believe to your own posts, which would be a lot more reasonable since it's your own believes. And after 600 pages it should be obvious that people who support the strike will not listen to someone trying to convince them it's all pointless, so following the logic that it's pointless to post about stuff that wont change...... And contrary to people supporting the healer strike, you don't even seem to have a worthwhile goal.

ps. I didn't mean this in hostile way. THe post might come accros a bit hostile. But it was already tricky enough to try get accros what I mean without making it sounds nice.

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Originally Posted by gllt

I still believe it's less catering to "bad players" specifically and more removing visible gaps in gameplay between all skill levels in order to mask anything players could use to be critical of each other.

But that's not really possible. People will be critical of each other and say nasty things to each other no matter how much you hide their gameplay from one another. You don't need a DPS meter for someone to tell you that you're playing badly. They don't even need to be right. People will find ways to blame their teammates no matter what game they play.

So I do think they're catering to a certain group of players, it's just that those players aren't one specific skill level, but rather people who can't mind their own business.

Other job is easier than mine! Other job gets this toy, why doesn't my job get this toy.

I think it's that and people who want to play jobs for the style or fantasy of playing the job but don't actually like how the job plays. Which I think is a valid complaint if it's coming from the majority of people who main that job. Well, an overwhelming majority. If it's like 51% I think it's a bad move to act on a number like that.

But we can't really know that kind of thing easily.

So yeah, I do think they listen to feedback and look at gameplay metrics, but I think the goal that maintains the bottom line in their eyes is creating gameplay that minimizes friction between players by making them as self responsible for success as possible.

If they have to talk to each other, or one role has to do something that isn't the tank or healer, someone will get yelled at! And that person might cancel their sub.

It's just more of the game failing to facilitate interactions between players. Kind of like the culture around commendations being "just give it to the healer or whoever is left if the healer left too quickly" most of the time. Failed system even if some people use it with actual intention sometimes and commend someone for what they thought was good gameplay.

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I believe its one of the root causes of toxicity in WoW end-game environment. Your success being dependent on others. And if another player "fails to live up to your expectations" then like I mentioned before, gamers are emotional beings and will start their blame witch hunt. SE might be desperately fighting against it. And how successful they are? Well we got a 610+ page post to discuss it I guess.

What does confuses me is that People that tell us that its "Useless" seem to forget that Yoshida already spoke about that they overdid the simplification and that it cant be reversed immediadly what has happend over expansions.
WHich was a common complain in the Forums. Especialy right now when they start working on the next expansion ,which apparently has Class Identity and Gameplay as focus, its good to put a spotlight on the needs of this Role.
Dont get me wrong the entire design needs it but we are in Healer Striker so i will focus on that.

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Toxic People will be toxic no matter the class design.
Look at those parse brainers <.<

WoW has a attitude and community problem, they need strict diciplinary measurement and clear coutner measurement against the swamp of toxic behaviour.
I once brought FF14 friendliness into the game and people in random content were shocked about that and surprised that someone showed them genuin friendliness. Poor souls :(

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Originally Posted by aiqa

I would appreciate it if you were a bit more explicit with your intentions. You imply a "you guys should stop providing feedback on the forums, because stuff on the forums will not be listened to anyway" without actually saying the words.

And if that is indeed you mean. Why are you trying to convince other people of that, people that have clearly decided it is worth another try, and have an actual goal (improving the healer role situation in FF). You could have applied that same believe to your own posts, which would be a lot more reasonable since it's your own believes. And after 600 pages it should be obvious that people who support the strike will not listen to someone trying to convince them it's all pointless, so following the logic that it's pointless to post about stuff that wont change...... And contrary to people supporting the healer strike, you don't even seem to have a worthwhile goal.

ps. I didn't mean this in hostile way. THe post might come accros a bit hostile. But it was already tricky enough to try get accros what I mean without making it sounds nice.

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Like I said before. I am a random internet Joe. Nobody will quit anything because I said so. I know that. But a lot of posters are being very emotional and want to spite SE for their perceived neglect. I am only pointing out that if somebody really wants to spite SE then voting with your wallet is the only way. A company sees you as $ and nothing more. As long as they get your $, then dont care if you actually play the game or write complaint posts on the forums 24/7.

It's a thing going on in fighting games as well, where legacy skill is intentionally crushed in order to level the playing field. But then it doesn't really work. Veteran players pick up on the changes quickly and stomp the new players into the ground. So they change the game up drastically every few patches in order to make it so everyone has to keep relearning everything. And people who get bored of the game come back for the patch cycle to see the changes, which increases player counts and gets people to buy DLC even if they're going to leave again shortly thereafter.

I think we're in a similar boat with FFXIV. It's not directly competitive, unless you play pvp which is balanced separately on purpose, but coop games still involve a lot of friction between legacy players and new players in a similar way. I think FFXIV is dependent on the players who just show up to see job and system changes and then leave.

Basically what I'm saying is, I think we're being continually baited into hope for changes or new jobs that will satisfy some of us, just to get us to come back to the game for a bit, even if those changes never really come. And it's best if they don't come so that I keep getting baited into coming back out of the hope that they will eventually come.

You can only wiggle the carrot on the stick in front of me so many times. Catch up to the latest expansion, we put in a slightly fun ability! You can't use it in the last several expansions of content but don't think about that too much. Look, Expedient go brrr hehehe. New effects! Wow!

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Originally Posted by Revash

What I am saying is. You can discuss ideas, post feedback and so forth as much as you like(and like you need mine, some rando internet guy's permission anyway :D ) but I am very skeptical that this strike will achieve anything. SE like any profit based company, base their decisions on profit, market analysis and so forth and not on "emotional forum tantrums". No offense meant. If they see a potential profit gain, they will act and their PR guys will present it as "we listened to feedback and we are the good guys!" but if there is no profit to be gained or they at least see it like that..then....

Edit: While I barely if ever use the FFXIV and if its indeed true that some healers have been posting the same feedback for 6 years without any response from SE. "An absence of an answer is still an answer". And I doubt they are refusing to budge only because they are stubborn oxes. :D

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I am not sure that it will change anything either to be honest. Yoshi has said that essentially, they went to far in simplifying the game.. oops! this "strike" for better or worse has made it outside the SE bubble of the forums, so now it also becomes a PR thing. what happens is anyone's guess and I am not going to speculate. but if their profits tank because they are abandonned by people who might want to use their brains occasionally when playing jobs... they cannot say they did not see it coming.

as in all things, time will tell. all I know is at this point, I need to see something actually change for the better before I spend money on 8.0. vague promises of a change have carried me this far, but the tank is dry.

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Originally Posted by itsnep

my fear now is that what little bit of regen i got this expac will be taken away lol.

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I doubt it. Also, the general agreement seems to be that DRK's sustain isn't a problem. A skilled DRK can mitigate a lot of damage, especially in decent gear, but won't be immortal and sure as hell won't keep the party alive as well as a dedicated healer can (WAR can do this in dungeons very easily). GNB, imo, is on the edge of still being somewhat acceptable. I understand the class fantasy of Paladin being the protector and support of the party. They may have overdone it a little bit, however. WAR is just insane. It's the best at everything tank and it's also stolen Paladin's party healer identity.

Thanks for the even faster QUeues, strikers, love it!

Watching this interview with healer strikers right now as I work - was anyone from here a part of this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_NsNMEAdPo

WAR's self-heals are fine as they are, since they're kind of part of it's identity as a Berserker that rather than having high defense they just regenerate faster than enemies can do damage.
But maybe for party heals, maybe remove the partywide Heal and HoT from Shake It Off and lower the potency of Nancent Flash...

Or MAYBE... Reduce their CDs and increase potencies and just swap the class to a Healer role.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

snip, Or MAYBE... Reduce their CDs and increase potencies and just swap the class to a Healer role.

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Follow the DPS model of Meele, Ranged, Magical for all Roles. xD

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

WAR's self-heals are fine as they are, since they're kind of part of it's identity as a Berserker that rather than having high defense they just regenerate faster than enemies can do damage.
But maybe for party heals, maybe remove the partywide Heal and HoT from Shake It Off and lower the potency of Nancent Flash...

Or MAYBE... Reduce their CDs and increase potencies and just swap the class to a Healer role.

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The Berserker identity has nothing to do with healing party members though. How do you explain that with WAR lore? It is incongruent. It has been clear for a long time that the developers don't really make much considerations for job lore. Just look at the dragoon changes. Dragoons jump. They might dash but dashing isn't how a dragoon generally gets around.

edit: also, WAR is strong in lore but that shouldn't mean it should be allowed to rip away the fun of other players. It steps on the toes of the healer role and it is not uncommon for WARs to solo bosses from 70% if not higher. This is a team game. WAR should be held to standards of team play.

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Originally Posted by Local_Custard

The Berserker identity has nothing to do with healing party members though.

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If it were a shield, with a duration and the potential to 'expire', it'd be a lot less destructive to the trinity, I think. An aesthetic more akin to 'you ignore the pain', rather than 'you shrug your shoulders a bit and all your wounds magically suture themselves shut. And your targetted ally's too, for some reason'

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Originally Posted by Revash

I believe its one of the root causes of toxicity in WoW end-game environment. Your success being dependent on others. And if another player "fails to live up to your expectations" then like I mentioned before, gamers are emotional beings and will start their blame witch hunt. SE might be desperately fighting against it. And how successful they are? Well we got a 610+ page post to discuss it I guess.

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I believe you're right, but at the same time it feels a little like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Teamplay creates friction between players ? Well then, let's remove teamplay almost entirely. Ok sure, but...

And again, why keep the player base divided into 3 roles if teamplay is so much of a problem ? What's the point in having so few differences between them ? Doesn't it create queues for almost nothing at the end ? Wouldn't it be simpler to put all players in an unique role ?

In fact, that's already pretty much what they did in the new type of dungeon of Endwalker. And to me, the damage the holy trinity suffered in this game is so big and goes for so long now, that the only way to make the game somehow coherent now is to simply get rid of the trinity !
It's really sad to me, but it's the better thing to do I guess...
They can't turn back now. Too many people have joined since Shadowbringer now, and too many people like the game the way it is now.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding the ‘traditional’ Berserker identity but I always assumed it was more ‘takes the damage but continues the rampage completely unfazed’. How in the world they got from that to ‘is literally so unfazed by the damage that their party members’ wounds force themselves shut’.
Like, did the Warrior get so angry it scared our wounds away or something? lol

Interestingly it’s also yet another example of how their absolute disregard for established lore, class identity and general game logic causes not only the classes themselves to suffer but every class around them too. It’s not like healers are just bad in a vacuum, it’s the total cumulation of all of these awful decisions made with no regard to the actual game itself. Like, they just used what they thought looked good on paper and said ‘screw if it fits, they’ll like what we tell ‘em to!’ (*cough*Seraphism*cough* )

Really Real Actual Dev Quote: ‘WAR has some angry ungabunga already, so let’s just give them a bunch of power heals strong enough solo practically anything instead, who cares about the axe or the class identity? Healers? Tf are those and why should we care?’

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Originally Posted by Grann-Goro

I believe you're right, but at the same time it feels a little like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Teamplay creates friction between players ? Well then, let's remove teamplay almost entirely. Ok sure, but...

And again, why keep the player base divided into 3 roles if teamplay is so much of a problem ? What's the point in having so few differences between them ? Doesn't it create queues for almost nothing at the end ? Wouldn't it be simpler to put all players in an unique role ?

In fact, that's already pretty much what they did in the new type of dungeon of Endwalker. And to me, the damage the holy trinity suffered in this game is so big and goes for so long now, that the only way to make the game somehow coherent now is to simply get rid of it !
It's really sad to me, but it's the better thing to do I guess...
They can't turn back now. Too many people have joined since Shadowbringer now, and too many people like the game the way it is now.

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I am not proposing FFXIV to become solo player game but if you combine many random peps together with different goals and skillsets together(like random duty roulete). Friction is inevitable. Its a natural reaction. SE can only to manage it as best as possible but you can't change human nature.
As for the roles. I personally believe its part of the game's core. Like any game, it has its foundation, its core where everything is built around it and some stuff simply can't be changed so easily without pretty much transforming the whole game together.

You can pain the walls, build a new roof, perhaps a new floor or new rooms but if you start changing the house's foundation, you risk collapsing it all together.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I mained Astrologian for the two years I've been around but I also shelved it for Dawntrail. I tested it out and I hate the changes as much as I thought I would. I liked the semi-random gameplay and the high APM. I just fully switched to Dancer because it's the closest thing with the general feel to me. I know there are other people who feel similarly. What I find strange is that both here and on Reddit, people were praising the rework, yet I don't see them playing Astro. It was already quite rare in Endwalker but now it's even worse. Which I find ironic because apparently the reason for simplifying healers is to appeal to more people. Doesn't seem to be working.

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I absolutely completely agree. The AST changes on the cards are completely unrewarding. The fun with the identity of the job was choice on the fly. Making the most out of a chaotic kit. The agency of the job has been washed away. I played and mained AST since the job release and have complained about the same changes. They have consistently homogenized and streamlined the job so much that there is no more flow chart to the job. 4 out of the 6 cards will go to the tank by default on CD because they are heal/mitigation perks, with a predetermined damage card with every sleeve draw. If I wanted to stack skills to produce a big shield/heal, I would have played another job. The base kit was also strong enough with heals and mitigation. Not only are 4 of the 6 cards practically do the same thing, they are going to the strong role in the game. Where is the reward in that?

If stacking the cards could produce new boosted perks, like in previous versions, it would add more agency in the choices of who will receive the cards. That is fun to do. Making the most out of a less than optimal situation is rewarding. If I wanted to memorize the maximal rotation of a job, I would main others. There are plenty of them. I know that high end players suffered the most out of RnG. But what percentage of playtime do even high end players play high end content? On the other hand, what is the majority of playtime being spent everyday?

The self expression of play in AST used to be the reason why I latched onto the job. Now, it's just feels like a different uniform of a department for the same company. I guess it is now time to conform and fall in line.

I will sadly wait for the live letter to see the response if there will be any. I hope the raiders are happy. They got what they always wanted.

I want decision making but all I get is the illusion of self expression on a neverending circular timer. But it's not even a good illusion.

Welcome to what it was like to main bard.

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Originally Posted by gllt

I want decision making but all I get is the illusion of self expression on a neverending circular timer. But it's not even a good illusion.

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This is an amazing take on a lot of FF14's problems.

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Originally Posted by Inarikun

On the other hand, what is the majority of playtime being spent everyday?.

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Glarebroiling.

The change to AST really made the Malefic spam more apparent. Before ,you noticed it inbetween the card flinging, where you had those 30 seconds of Redraw to Malefic away. But when you had a card you fell into this sorta rythm where you fling cards inbetween GCDs. It made openers frantic but always following the rythm of malefic. It made the spell and the repetition almost dissapear for a few seconds.

Now the button is really apparent. You basically hold the 2 dps cards for 2 minute bursts and the other four cards are halphazardly flung around when you need a weaker version of Celestial Intersection/ Aspected Benefic / Exaltation.

Redraw was neat to use. The last smidgeon of card control and engagement you had with seals is gone. Astrodyne while it was kinda crappy in execution, at least was something you could build up to.

Now it's just more malefic sludge with the occasional cluster of flavourless card cookie chip in between and a big flashy (but otherwise kinda pointless attack) at the end.

Oracle is really pretty though. I wish we could use it more often and build up to it.

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Originally Posted by Isala

The only communication we ever get out of the devs is that they're designing Jobs to appeal to players who normally don't play them, (WHY?!)

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This one here definitely confuses me the most.

Like, even putting aside my chronic lack of desire to tank/heal in PVE player group content no matter how "non-anxious" they make the roles, I will also say I was not the biggest fan of MNK & BLM prior to Dawntrail because I just couldn't keep track of how all their mechanics work and found them complicated to play with no real satisfaction even when I accidentally did it correctly once or twice. To hear people say it, both of them were "dumbed down" to make them more appealing to people like me and having played them both... yeah, still not liking them, and I actually feel *more* overwhelmed because now I have even *more* Job gauge things to keep track of. (And I'm not the only non-MNK & BLM main that went right back to not wanting to main them.)

So you have some prior fans of the jobs that don't like the changes, you have some of the ever elusive "new" fans of the jobs not caring about the changes, so then... WHY CHANGE ANYTHING?

Also, all this talk about "MSQ must be viably doable for low skill players so we can't make the game too hard". First thing; Duty Support/Squadrons/Trusts exist to clear most (if not all) dungeons in the simplest way possible. In fact, I would *love* an expansion on the Squadron system (if only to have squadmates of the other races they added later), but for some reason Square wants them locked into Heavensward content forever, and they don't seem inclined to add story/solo versions of Trails/Raids despite how much story gets locked behind them (Crystal Tower being the most grievous example of "you must be this good to see the rest of the game").

Secondly, PVP shows they *can* make alternate versions of skills with *completely* different affects and hot bar setups for a different mode. I would much rather they just gave the MSQ-only dungeon/trial/raid crowd their own batch of skills in that exact solo content, while everyone else hitting up Duty Finder/Party Finder got *their* own batch of skills more in line with the engagement they want. It doesn't have to be a "one or the other" approach when it comes to adapting to different levels of challenge. Hell, you could even give the Savage/Ultimate crowd *their* own versions of tweaked skills if they want them. The concept isn't impossible, PVP proves it, tis' just a matter of:

1. How much Square-Enix is willing to make differing skills and traits between modes?
2. Would the playerbase even *want* a dynamic set of skills to accommodate different levels of personally desired content?

Job changing, a key mechanic of the game (if not a large part of the franchise) is already a thing we do, let's just take it to the next logical step if accessibility and challenge are equal cravings and the code under the hood is already there, taunting us with the possibilities. I mean, shucks, I wouldn't mind a version of MNK & BLM I enjoyed playing, but I wouldn't want it at the expense of MNK & BLM mains who *already* liked those jobs as they were. Insert that one meme about Miguel and Tulio saying both is good.

Why, they wouldn't even need to put much work into so many different kits per mode with all of the additional skills it would ask for. Anyone got a body count on the number of skills that have been removed *this expansion alone*? No sense letting all those old animations go to waste~

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

This one here definitely confuses me the most.

Like, even putting aside my chronic lack of desire to tank/heal in PVE player group content no matter how "non-anxious" they make the roles, I will also say I was not the biggest fan of MNK & BLM prior to Dawntrail because I just couldn't keep track of how all their mechanics work and found them complicated to play with no real satisfaction even when I accidentally did it correctly once or twice. To hear people say it, both of them were "dumbed down" to make them more appealing to people like me and having played them both... yeah, still not liking them, and I actually feel *more* overwhelmed because now I have even *more* Job gauge things to keep track of. (And I'm not the only non-MNK & BLM main that went right back to not wanting to main them.)

So you have some prior fans of the jobs that don't like the changes, you have some of the ever elusive "new" fans of the jobs not caring about the changes, so then... WHY CHANGE ANYTHING?

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"We want to make it super simple to pick up so that some of the players that enjoy the actual fun classes will think "well it's not that bad for a quick queue" and dip into the dungeon finder, thus preventing the 20 minute queues we had before."

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Originally Posted by Auteur

The pugslinger guy name calling is missing my points entirely and being too emotional.

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No, I understand your point just fine. I simply disagree with it. (And I also can't help but notice that you went straight to tone-policing instead of bothering to engage with my counterarguments.)

Your point: You think that healers cannot be trusted with any responsibility that would cause a party wipe if the healer dies, because they are a "single point of failure," and this means new/bad healers will get yelled at or something. You think healers will be too stressed to play the role unless other roles can do their job for them. You think that only giving every job a rez will allow healers to face any challenge or difficulty in encounters. You somehow don't think that tanks, who also cause a party wipe if they die during a pull, are also a single point of failure.

You ignore repeated counterarguments pointing out that Trusts are a thing, and healers who are deathly afraid of being vote-kicked from DF parties can always just run MSQ dungeons with Trusts. The solution to the "issue" you think you've found is already in the game, you just choose not to see it.

As for emotion? Well, you try having your preferred role gutted of all complexity and skill expression over the course of half a decade, seeing the devs not only ignore your feedback but also double down on those changes, and dealing with a never-ending horde of non-healers spouting the same tired, canned, easily-disproven lines over and over and over, and see what it does for your disposition.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It feels like a disease: this inability to differentiate optimization with expectation that plagues FFXIV. There has never been an epidemic of casual players being walled by any example of core content (content associated with story) ever in FFXIV's lifespan except for Coils of Bahamut.

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I mostly agree, though I think pre-nerf Steps of Faith is a valid counterexample. Whether it was actually overtuned or not, it's been long enough that I don't really remember. But I do remember that a lot of people complained about not being able to progress the MSQ because of the encounter difficulty.

But yeah, expecting basic competence is not the same as demanding that every player min-max their job. It's genuinely astonishing the degree to which the detractors here conflate the two, in a rather massive fallacy of the excluded middle.

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Originally Posted by rawker

Need I also have to mention that we're called elitists and scrubs at the same time by people on your side of the argument. At the very least, coordinate with ome another so you can finalize if we're elitists or noobs.

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We are Schoedinger's Healstrikers: simultaneously elitists and scrubs. We exist in a quantum superposition of skill and unskill, with the wave function collapsing into whichever state is most convenient for the detractor's argument.

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Originally Posted by Punslinger

I mostly agree, though I think pre-nerf Steps of Faith is a valid counterexample. Whether it was actually overtuned or not, it's been long enough that I don't really remember. But I do remember that a lot of people complained about not being able to progress the MSQ because of the encounter difficulty.

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If I remember correctly, the fight wasn't overtuned so much as it was tuned too perfectly.

I remember that failing to land even one dragonkiller would cause the entire fight to fail, and everyone just had to wait forever for the dragon to walk all over to the gate to restart the fight.

I wouldn't say it was a bad fight though, it was just a gimmick fight that was tuned so that you can't make a mistake when using the gimmicks, so I guess in a sense, it was overtuned, because you can't really expect 8 people to coordinate perfectly in a random party.

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Originally Posted by Punslinger

Your point: You think that healers cannot be trusted with any responsibility that would cause a party wipe if the healer dies, because they are a "single point of failure," and this means new/bad healers will get yelled at or something. You think healers will be too stressed to play the role unless other roles can do their job for them. You think that only giving every job a rez will allow healers to face any challenge or difficulty in encounters. You somehow don't think that tanks, who also cause a party wipe if they die during a pull, are also a single point of failure.
You ignore repeated counterarguments pointing out that Trusts are a thing, and healers who are deathly afraid of being vote-kicked from DF parties can always just run MSQ dungeons with Trusts. The solution to the "issue" you think you've found is already in the game, you just choose not to see it.

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The comment by one of the prostrikers that was deleted in the middle of page 598 was "I don’t think healers need this redundancy. I think it’s fine they might get kicked if their bad gameplay prevents progress." This precisely what SE is trying to guard against. Also most MSQ encounters are designed so the party can recover if the tank dies but the healer is alive through a combination of fastcast rez and using a lot of mitigation CDs. SE is trying to put redundancy to a healer with increased agency to tank and DPS, which is what the pro-strikers are decrying.

Your remaining linchpin rebuttal point of "just do trusts" is ironic because pro-strikers in this thread also decry that Yoshi-P and forum users allegedly respond to pro-strikers' complaints with "just do ultimate." You are responding to my point with the "just do X" logic. In any event, SE is not going to assume every single player is either going to "get good" or just sit in trusts. I believe another person in this thread pointed out that SE seems to also be motivated by trying to police and remove negative player interaction as much as possible. Whether rightly or wrongly, this is the overarching policy decision they made. And the attitude like one of your pro-strikers with a moderated comment of "I don’t think healers need this redundancy. I think it’s fine they might get kicked if their bad gameplay prevents progress" is why SE cares about redundancy and not making healers a single point of failure where there is a possibility of interaction with other players (ex: Duty Finder).

My suggestion of giving an raise item to everyone usable in instances like a pheonix down is a potential alternative that would reduce the likelihood of negative player interaction. SE then may feel comfortable adding more complexity and increasing "stakes" for healers because there is more redundancy built in that inherently will also mitigate negative player reaction. More redundancy means less likelihood of one player/one role risking the entire DF group's progression and then being blamed.

Could you imagine....

They could cure cancer. Stop homelessness. Feed the hungry.

Put your energies towards something productive instead of complaining about video games.

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Originally Posted by Auteur

Your remaining linchpin rebuttal point of "just do trusts" is ironic because pro-strikers in this thread also decry that Yoshi-P and forum users allegedly respond to pro-strikers' complaints with "just do ultimate." You are responding to my point with the "just do X" logic. In any event, SE is not going to assume every single player is either going to "get good" or just sit in trusts. I believe another person in this thread pointed out that SE seems to also be motivated by trying to police and remove negative player interaction as much as possible. Whether rightly or wrongly, this is the overarching policy decision they made. And the attitude like one of your pro-strikers with a moderated comment of "I don’t think healers need this redundancy. I think it’s fine they might get kicked if their bad gameplay prevents progress" is why SE cares about redundancy and not making healers a single point of failure where there is a possibility of interaction with other players (ex: Duty Finder).

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Do you not realise that tanks are also a point of failure in the party? But in their double standard, the solution employed by the dev team there was to buff tanks to godhood when their solution for healers was to gut them like a fish.

Why do tanks get more tools to cover their own failure while healers lose their tools and other people get the tools to cover for the healers failure? That's a very clear double standard and people are allowed to call it out.

I had a tank that got up to seven vuln stacks in a dungeon earlier but I was still able to keep them alive with minimal effort, even through the busters.

I feel like the bosses could be a touch rougher on them if that's allowed to be the case.

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Originally Posted by Malia_Chan

Could you imagine....

They could cure cancer. Stop homelessness. Feed the hungry.

Put your energies towards something productive instead of complaining about video games.

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How productive does that make blanket complaints about other's complaints (no matter how reasonable), then?

Discourse with, to your mind, little value is one thing. Going out of one's way to shut that discourse down, though, is inherently all the less valueable, no? (Outside of schadenfreude / joys of trolling, of course.)

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Originally Posted by Malia_Chan

Could you imagine....

They could cure cancer. Stop homelessness. Feed the hungry.

Put your energies towards something productive instead of complaining about video games.

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How about you be the paragon of your examples and stop with virtue signaling.