All Greed on Alliance loot

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Originally Posted by Kahnom

I have a feeling they might bring back the “old rule” back by next week.
Finger crossed but not gonna count on it.

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Only if jp asks, we haven't had mod responses in ages. Even then, has se ever backup up on an idea that went down poorly? I cant think of any... just a short excuse typically.

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Originally Posted by Tonberrian

This is a ridiculous solution to a "problem" that didn't exist, made worse by creating a plethora of new, actual problems at the same time.

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I think they were trying to solve a real problem. They just did in the most stupid way. The official reason is this is suppose to reduce the number of times you have to run it. I don't know why people keep ignoring this and making up their own reason they did it.

Also someone did this translation from an interview with Yoshi-P: ""If it's all greed then it's easier for people to compromise and think "maybe this gear is ok" (ie, roll on whatever drops instead of holding out for a specific piece). We think that giving all 8 players that option should make the amount of time it takes to get gear remain the same or reduce it.""

If that's translation is accurate, their solution to the problem to having to run it multiple times was to make trying to get the thing you want so awful that you give up and get you to be willing to take anything. With 4 boss with 2 pieces of loot on each, y'all would each get something on the first run if only you all would roll greed on everything.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

The 'logic' behind it was to make sure that the run is as smooth as possible, they will do it as their most geared class.

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Speaking as a healer, the vast majority of wipes happen because people don't know tactics, not because they don't know their class. You don't get two stack markers on top of each other on the second boss in Rabanastre because the person who usually plays rdm is playing brd. The argument behind that logic is poor at best.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

To me the whole thing is stupid and just another toxic solution to a something that wasn't a problem in the first place.

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I wonder if it was even a problem in the japanese servers. Alliance raids have been in XIV for several years and only now this change comes? Surely if there was an epidemic of players feeling bad for playing a less geared class which reduced incentive to play other classes we'd have seen the change far sooner. Nothing dramatic has changed about alliance raid loot since ARR as far as I know. So why was there suddenly a problem with a need/greed/pass system?

My guess is there wasn't. SE probably saw a moderately common trend on the japanese servers and without thinking about whether or not this is the case for all the data centres, they changed the loot system for everyone.

And to those who are saying stuff like "only raiders -need- gear, and they won't want gear from a 24 man so the greed system is fine" either you have the illusion that every raiding team has o8s on farm or know very little about raiding and gear. Casual or newer raid teams certainly can benefit from alliance raid loot if they haven't gotten far in the tier yet. Personally I replaced a 370 piece with 360 alliance loot because the secondary stats outweighed the mind and hp gain. Higher ilvl doesn't automatically mean better gear. Stat weights are more complex than that.

After these implementations, I have no reason to run raids anymore. I usually had a good chance of getting one piece of gear per run at least. It kinda sucked sometimes. But it was progress. Now I have a 12.5% chance to acquire gear? This is ridiculous and not giving me my fair chance. If I queue up as a tank or samurai, I shouldn't have to compete against casters or ranged players for gear. It isnt fair at all their "alts" take presidence over my main. PERIOD.

i hope they revert it, this is ridiculous

My brother told me he was running 24 man on his ninja which just recently hit 70 and he lost 2 pieces of loot to people who don't have ninjas and he needed it to gear up.

Good job SE, nice change. /s

Remember all the posts about how people wouldn't roll for gear they didn't need because of the weekly lockout, so there wouldn't be a problem? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

I just watched a SAM on his first run through Rabanastre, in ILV 300 arhat pants BEG for the pants when they dropped.

The first time the NIN took them.

They dropped again and the BRD took them.

This is such a great system right?!

Not to mention I've gotten Rabanastre three times since 4.3. Gotten not a single drop out of it. :/

For all the talks of "you should use tomes to gear your main" I feel like a lot of people, SE included, forget that not everyone caps on Mendacity weekly and aren't swimming in Creation either. For people like that, getting the 330 pieces from Rabanastre would actually gear them up a fair bit and save them the Creation or even Mendacity to be used on other pieces of gear at the same time. And that's not even counting the new raid where it's likely worse because it's an upgrade for everyone's alts.

For a game that keeps telling us it's ok to take breaks, they legit broke one of the ways to gear up after such a hiatus.

Pointless putting a greed only system into the 24 man raids. Can't think of any possible reason for this.

SE has lost the plot on this decision.

I think that a fair compromise would be changing the the system a bit to give "Need" for the gear of your class, but only until you get it for the first time. Once you do, you can never "Need" on it again, whether or not you have it at the time.

The gear and drop system in place is ridiculous due to the options there are not related to actually using it. Desynthesis and turning in for grand company seals is a massive pain due to how there is an unlimited need for that (for those that care about those). Then there is selling for gil (if someone is running the content, they may as well try to get that extra gil) for everyone else. With "Need" button permanently etched on, it's effectively impossible in most parties to get the gear for your off-class. The greed button could as well be dropped completely and the gear could drop randomly to one of the people for which it would be a "Need", not much would change then.

But if there is a "Need" button only until you first obtain it, then you will be able to get it by playing the class certainly. You sell it, turn in for seals or anything else?! Well, you can still get more, but only with greed, as that's basically what the second copy is. If you no longer have it when you did before, then you clearly don't need it anymore. This would solve the issue pretty much completely while still allow people to be "polite" by playing with their best class and still roll on the gear with a chance of getting it.

Wouldn't mind some kind of token system being implemented into the 24 man raids where if you have 3-5 tokens (1 per trip) you can swap it directly for a piece of equipment.

Can just make it that you can only exchange for one piece of equipment per week.

This is the worst things I saw since I started the game at ARR.
I'm just thinking... why ?
24 man should be an "easy" way to have a "good" stuff for people who wants to stuff alt or main job for incoming patch or whatever reason.
Right now it's such a pain to have your weekly loot especially if you are here only for one class...

I have yet to run into the problem of people getting loot I wanted...

Because over 10 or so runs of the Lighthouse I have only seen caster and healer loot, which I don't want.

So much for the all greed addressing people having to do multiple runs, because rolls were never the problem...

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Originally Posted by kikix12

I think that a fair compromise

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Why does there need to be a 'compromise'? This is how devs keep getting away with putting out garbages. They put out something that is legit garbage and we do mental gymnastics trying to find ways to let them save face instead of forcing them to be adults and admit it's not a good change.

I won't stop playing the game just because a dev made a mistake and admitted it. I WILL stop playing the game (and paying for it) if they keep cramming bad changes into the game. Right now they are in the number 2 slot. That's not going to last long if the goal is to continue this toxic environment.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

I won't stop playing the game just because a dev made a mistake and admitted it. I WILL stop playing the game (and paying for it) if they keep cramming bad changes into the game. Right now they are in the number 2 slot. That's not going to last long if the goal is to continue this toxic environment.

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You're fully right.
I already stopped two other MMO because of this reason and FF14 is the only good MMO I've played with an interaction between the team and community.
It's a real pleasure to see a team who admit "we were wrong sorry guys, we make it reverse" instead of "it's a good decision for you 'cause it's a good decision for us".
Everybody can do mistake, now let's see the future.

I think it's just an indicator on how the game will evolve and how the community will be treated.

Ugh thanks to the greed only crap it went from “oh boy I hope rng gives me a slim chance for my gear to drop” and I have infamous luck with my friends where my gear on my job NEVER drops but now when the gear I want drops I have to basicly sacrifice a goat to the rng gods praying for a 99

:/ this has made gearing my other classes from slightly annoying to just a pure pain

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

For all the talks of "you should use tomes to gear your main" I feel like a lot of people, SE included, forget that not everyone caps on Mendacity weekly and aren't swimming in Creation either. For people like that, getting the 330 pieces from Rabanastre would actually gear them up a fair bit and save them the Creation or even Mendacity to be used on other pieces of gear at the same time. And that's not even counting the new raid where it's likely worse because it's an upgrade for everyone's alts.

For a game that keeps telling us it's ok to take breaks, they legit broke one of the ways to gear up after such a hiatus.

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No one cares about the "alts" the people with the main jobs are screwed if they need that gear.

Is there any mod taking a look at this topic?

I know it sucks to make a lot of topics about the same subject, but it was said previously that if the ""feature"" wasn't well received, they would consider removing it. So we need to know our feedback is being taking in consideration.

I'm not going to run the 24 man content again. The whole greed system has messed it up.

Also the pathetic math boss has put me off altogether. I play games for fun, not to do math problems.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

I think that a fair compromise would be changing the the system a bit to give "Need" for the gear of your class, but only until you get it for the first time. Once you do, you can never "Need" on it again, whether or not you have it at the time.

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But you already can't turn lighthouse gear in for seals or desynth, so that isn't an issue. Why would someone be needing it multiple times?

The problem with this solution is that it requires a bunch of server resources to track if you've already gotten it or not, to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. If you want to apply it to Rab and older raids, okay, sure, that stuff is mostly glamour/turnins now anyway. But people use the current one to catch up on gear for jobs they're actually using. This change has made that harder, and your solution is an over complicated way to avoid that.

The easy fix is to put it back to how it was before. That's worked pretty well for two decades in MMOs.

you know just once I'd like my predictions on how x change is going to suck because it will make this happen to be wrong

I"m now curious how the JP playerbase is taking this change...
I remember there being mention of many of them being confused and against this change.

Would be interesting to see an update on that.

I'll run once a week for the coin and ABSOLUTELY roll greed on everything indiscriminately (aside from the waist) until I get it all.

Y'all either play the loot game SE implemented or its going to play you.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

The easy fix is to put it back to how it was before. That's worked pretty well for two decades in MMOs.

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An alternative, if they absolutely insist on this supposed "fair" approach is including a separate token which can be traded in for the gear of your choosing. You can only obtain said token after say 5-10 runs. That keeps the queue alive, allowing you a chance to roll on something should RNG be kind but doesn't punish should your luck be bad that week.

Of course, that would have been the sensible change from the start...

Making my first post on these forums just to chime in.

I absolutely hate this change. It punishes players that actually need gear and are willing to actually play that job. You're playing a job, and gear drops for it that you actually need? You should get priority, not the person over there that's not even willing to play the job. End of story.

And going back to old raids (where there is no weekly lockout) for glamour or gear for lower level jobs? Good luck, you need to beat 7 other people all rolling on the item to vendor it.

I won't be going back into 24-man raids while this new loot rule exists.

I don't really have a preference in this either way, as I dont really use the 24 man gear, but my partner isn't very happy about it. So get rid of it and bring back the old system!

It occurs to me that this system is going to confuse new players. There is quite a lot of group content to work through before you can unlock the first alliance raid, and up to that point all loot in dungeons and trials is need/greed/pass.

New players are going to think their game is bugged because they can't roll need on gear for the class they're playing.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

It occurs to me that this system is going to confuse new players. There is quite a lot of group content to work through before you can unlock the first alliance raid, and up to that point all loot in dungeons and trials is need/greed/pass.

New players are going to think their game is bugged because they can't roll need on gear for the class they're playing.

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This change effects ALL Alliance Raids. Even the older ones.

So people only coming now will think it's always been greed only.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

This change effects ALL Alliance Raids. Even the older ones.

So people only coming now will think it's always been greed only.

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But all content they do before that is need/greed. These now just work differently than everything else because reasons.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Why does there need to be a 'compromise'?

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Instead of getting irked at the word "compromise", I suggest actually reading the post to the end and thinking about what's being suggested.

I'm not talking about a compromise between players and developers where both sides lose. I'm talking about a compromise between the players that want everything they can get their hands on and the players that want to get the items they actually need.

The players that genuinely need something, will be able to get it without having to compete against everyone and their mother. The players that do not need it but want will be able to get stuff they wouldn't have a chance of ever getting due to someone else having need privilege despite not needing it. Though it works at that time in both sides.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

But you already can't turn lighthouse gear in for seals or desynth, so that isn't an issue. Why would someone be needing it multiple times?

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You can't...yet. There are people that don't care about the gear there at all cause they have better gear anyway. They run it for whatever other reason (like the minion). But since they're there, they may just greed on everything else anyway.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

The problem with this solution is that it requires a bunch of server resources to track if you've already gotten it or not, to solve a problem that doesn't really exist.

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The resources you are talking about are actually miniscule. It's a simple flag. A few bits of information (bits as in binary unit) for piece of gear. Whenever you type a full phrase in chat you are using more resources than doing that for an entire raids drop list.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

The easy fix is to put it back to how it was before. That's worked pretty well for two decades in MMOs.

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That's not a fix. That's returning to a state that was broken for different reason. And there are many things that worked "pretty well" for all sorts of thing. Bikes worked pretty well for few centuries. Were our ancestors supposed to stay with bikes? Pretty sure you're glad they didn't, and invented cars, trains and the like.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

But all content they do before that is need/greed. These now just work differently than everything else because reasons.

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Yea this is my point. Everything up to the first unlockable alliance raid is need/greed/pass, and that is quite a lot of content. New players will go to the alliance raid expecting the same loot system they have been exposed to, and...then they'll find there's no need button despite the fact that the gear states only certain classes can equip it.

There isn't even an obvious in-game reason for it. The loot aren't special tokens, special gear or anything different. Nothing indicates why alliance loot is treated differently. Having no need button for no apparent reason could very much look like a bug to someone who isn't aware of the change.

I am ok with this change, at least I can go to 24 man raid using the job i like and loot for my other classes?

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Originally Posted by kikix12

The resources you are talking about are actually miniscule. It's a simple flag. A few bits of information (bits as in binary unit) for piece of gear. Whenever you type a full phrase in chat you are using more resources than doing that for an entire raids drop list.

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No it's not. Storing it as a flag requires creating a value to flip the flag bit in, and you'll need a flag bit for every piece of loot this applies to (a frequently growing list). That also provides you with no audit trail for when the item was acquired in the first place, making it hard for GMs to respond to support tickets about it without a secondary audit log being created somewhere.

You then need that value loaded for every player in every instance. You'll need to persist it back out every time someone wins an item. You'll need to communicate it to every client so that the client knows if they can hit need or not (when client/server communication load is already an issue). You'll need to know which bit corresponds to which item, so the item database will need a value to use to correlate those.

Meanwhile, a chat message is sent from one client, relayed to some others, persisted to logs for enforcement purposes, and promptly forgotten about. The server doesn't have to refer to it again, doesn't have to keep it in memory, and doesn't have to keep it in sync with the client.

Also, someone has to spend the time developing and testing that, as opposed to something players actually want.

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That's not a fix. That's returning to a state that was broken for different reason. And there are many things that worked "pretty well" for all sorts of thing. Bikes worked pretty well for few centuries. Were our ancestors supposed to stay with bikes? Pretty sure you're glad they didn't, and invented cars, trains and the like.

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No, it wasn't broken. It worked fine at what it was intended to do: support the etiquette that came about in MMOs over the years where someone on the job in question gets priority over someone who wants to gear an alt. That worked fine. There weren't tons of threads complaining about how bad it was (in fact ,there was none). It's still the default system in every other roulette in the game.

If it's good enough for nearly the entire game, it doesn't sound very broken to me. Not to mention that your proposed fix is to put it back to how it was, except in a more complicated way. Your proposal lets people need again, exactly how it was before, except they can't do it twice, which was hardly a problem in the first place.

Meanwhile, this change has done something that almost never happens: get the community in multiple languages to agree on something in overwhelming numbers. SE decided to find a problem that didn't exist, fix it by reinventing the wheel, and apparently thought that wheels would work better if they were triangular and there was seven of them.

Ok how about this. There are as many tokens on offer each run as there would be pieces of gear. We all greed on them and win 1 or not you then trade that token for whichever piece of gear you want. Still means some people may have to run multiple time as was the case with the need system but at least you can get any piece of kit you need/want. Then when the new raid comes out they lift the restriction on how many tokens you can greed on just like they do with gear.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

That's not a fix. That's returning to a state that was broken for different reason. And there are many things that worked "pretty well" for all sorts of thing. Bikes worked pretty well for few centuries. Were our ancestors supposed to stay with bikes? Pretty sure you're glad they didn't, and invented cars, trains and the like.

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I'll be blunt and say this is a piss work analogy. Cars are an objective improvement while bikes shifted to a more recreational activity. The current Greed only change does nothing but hinder progression, directly punishing players who only want a specific few pieces. While flawed, the old system was objectively better because it allowed some degree of control from the player. Now we are at the mercy of RNG entirely.

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Originally Posted by FudoMyoo

I am ok with this change, at least I can go to 24 man raid using the job i like and loot for my other classes?

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You'll find it okay until you keep losing gear you want to people who don't even have a class who can equip it unlocked.

The greed change makes me sad :(

I'm gonna pitch in here and say that the change should certainly be reverted, as it already took over a week to get the Yafaemi set for ninja while playing one and being able to need, it'll only get worse if other people are able to roll for that same item while not playing that class.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

No it's not. Storing it as a flag requires creating a value to flip the flag bit in(...)

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Of course the feature will need to be programmed. Since everything is stored on server (inventory and class data), client will have a function that checks the flag for given character and a function for turning the flag on. That's very little resource. That's why flags are used everywhere possible. They are the least resource intensive means.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

(...)and you'll need a flag bit for every piece of loot this applies to (a frequently growing list).

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Um...Sure, you could make it like that. But why?! Instead of making it part of every item, just make it check the flag as part of the drop. Item drops, check the flag. Whatever item that is. Will also help people like me that don't remember whether we already have that minion or orchestrion roll.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

That also provides you with no audit trail for when the item was acquired in the first place, making it hard for GMs to respond to support tickets about it without a secondary audit log being created somewhere.

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Not really sure what you mean here. A time-stamp for when the flag was turned on?! If yes, then why would you really need it?! What support ticket could you send that requires it?!
"I never got that item before but I cannot need on it!"
That's about the only one I can imagine. But that actually doesn't require any information on when the flag was created. It requires information on whether a player aquired that item, and that is readily available already. They have logs that save what player obtains, when, from what source. That's how they check whether the item was obtained legally, whether a claim that there was agreement for player X to get drop Y in a party with player Z saying he's fine with that but then rolling for it anyway and so on. That relevant information is already there.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

You then need that value loaded for every player in every instance.

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And?! Eight bits is still just eight bits. And you know...again...it's all server-side (well...between the main server and the instance server). The only information between the server and the player is "You can/can't choose Need." and "I choose Need/Greed/Pass.".

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Originally Posted by Tridus

You'll need to persist it back out every time someone wins an item.

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Not really. If a player won by "Need" just flip the flag. That's, again, very little information. Yes, it's additional information, but small one and done between servers.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

You'll need to communicate it to every client so that the client knows if they can hit need or not (when client/server communication load is already an issue).

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Again, that's just a 1 or 0. You can need or you can't need. The client does the rest.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Also, someone has to spend the time developing and testing that, as opposed to something players actually want.

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Like everything. And you can say only for yourself. You cannot say how few or many players would prefer the system as I suggested it. And compared to some of the other stuff that players ask for (like making gender-locked glamour unisex) a flag is a very basic function don't purely with a limited amount of text. The workload is nowhere near the same.


You also seem to be forgetting something very important in what you said. Checking whether you can Need an item based on class is actually...checking flags. Yeah. It needs to check whether you can need it as well. And it needs to do that for every class that can equip the item. Obviously, towards all players. And then, once players roll, it needs to deal with the Need/Greed priority. A necessity that does not exist if everyone rolls greed for whatever reason.
Sure, there is no turning the flag on upon winning, since the flag is changed based on players changing of class (which cannot happen in instance). But that's just about the only real difference in how the two checks work.


I won't respond to the rest of your post because it shows your conservative nature. You seem to assume that things cannot be made better and every change is for the worse, unless you asked for it, so there really is no point in discussing it, seeing as I believe in that everything can be made better.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I'll be blunt and say this is a piss work analogy. Cars are an objective improvement while bikes shifted to a more recreational activity. The current Greed only change does nothing but hinder progression, directly punishing players who only want a specific few pieces. While flawed, the old system was objectively better because it allowed some degree of control from the player. Now we are at the mercy of RNG entirely.

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That analogy was not about greed only and the old system. That analogy was between old system and a system where need is accessible for a given item only until you get it for the first time. I'd appreciate it if you did read the actual beginning of a discussion instead of responding out of context.

And cars have tons of negatives. They are more convenient and faster. And that's about all. There are also drawbacks. They cost more to use, they are more dangerous when used improperly, they cause pollution, they are loud. they need a lot more space, they increase distances between point A to point B because they need sizeable enough roads to divide the locations etc. So no, the analogy is not a bad one. You just don't realize how many negatives cars have.