How to Dragoon Per Second: A DPS Paradigm

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Originally Posted by AzureKoi

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Without the 4th hits, our old rotation is what you'd want to do as that had the highest potency/buff uptime before we got the new abilities. Probably best to not think of it as a "rotation" at this point however but a priority system as you won't be maintaining the old rotation for long (as you'll want to use BotD after the next Vorpal Thrust/Disembowel after it goes off CD). So once it falls out, you should basically do this:

1) Finish whatever combo you started (assuming you are in middle of one)
2) <8 sec on HT? Repply (at less than 7-8s it will fall out before you finish another combo)
3) <8 sec on Disembowel/Chaos Thrust? CT Combo (Disembowel and CT ticks are more important than...)
4) <8 sec on Phleb? Reapply
5) Everything gonna up? TTT.

Hopefully you'll be back to doing BotD after you do a round of repplying. If not, after each 1-2-3 combo, check the priority list and react accordingly. At least that's what I'd do.

I have played MNK as main up until now, but got bored with the new abilities after playing on it at 60, so now I've just leveled my DRG to 60, and I've tried out the rotation that has been thrown around as the "official" rotation (kinda).

My question is now (already), what would be the best realistic rotation to use in raids? That rotation works well on a dummy and all, but I literally use the 4th combo skill just as BoTD is about to fall off... We're talking about milliseconds here. That won't work most of the time. It will only work in fights where you know 100% there won't be anything you have to dodge that will stop you from spamming skills, and there usually is some random target thing or something in fights.

You're also using BoTD during the rotation for it not to fall off, but I feel this would be a bad choice in many cases, since if you lose it because of some mechanic, you then have to wait for it to come off CD again.

Greased Lightning was the whole challenge with MNK, to keep it up while dodging mechanics etc. But you still have plenty of time to reapply it if you continuously hit the target... That DRG rotation pretty much is like how MNKs opener was in 2.X, where you had almost no space left to reapply GL after using Perfect Balance, only this is all the time.

SE must have intended for us to use a different rotation, where you use less Geirskogul, cause this just won't do it. SE have said before that they didn't intend for some rotations that people found out, and then changed things based on the new rotation... So maybe they change the time on BoTD or reduce the amount Geirskogul consumes, but one thing is for sure, this rotation won't work realistically.

There's nothing wrong with the rotation. If you're worried about BoTD falling off, just use GK less. You can play it safe while learning fights, and once you are confident with the fight and know the mechanics and their timings, you can use GK more often in a way that doesn't make BoTD not drop off. I personally use 90% of the rotation like normal in Ravana Ex, and only save the occasional GK based on downtime (e.g. running from orbs) or so I can shift them a few seconds away so I can use more in a red phase instead.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

My question is now (already), what would be the best realistic rotation to use in raids? That rotation works well on a dummy and all, but I literally use the 4th combo skill just as BoTD is about to fall off... We're talking about milliseconds here. That won't work most of the time. It will only work in fights where you know 100% there won't be anything you have to dodge that will stop you from spamming skills, and there usually is some random target thing or something in fights.

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There is no "Realistic" rotation for raids. There never has been for any Job (well, I guess Bard and BLM....) You can never go 1-2-3-4 in any Raid Encounter. There's always some mechanic you need to handle where you need to use your knowledge of skills and capitalise on it for maximum up time. There's parts where it's best to go H - ID - DI - TTT, there's parts where just doing TTT is best.

The same is said about the 3.0, but on a much grand scale. There is no best rotation. For Bismarck + Ravana EX, you do something differently all the time to handle the mechanics. Oh you got Prelude to Liberation? H - DI - ID - TTT. You've got Pillars of Heaven? H - P (Knock-back) - IDC4. This phase lasts 20s? I'll save BotD for the next phase.

I've got BotD timer ticking good, BotD is coming up soon, but there's a phase transition in the next 15 seconds? Hold BotD cooldown for the next phase.

About to enter Phase Transition? Blow GK

I'm now dealing with adds which die in 4 GCDs? TTT4 spam!

Oh, there's a mechanic where I'm going to be knocked-back and unable to use GK as my BotD will fall of? Hold GK until you've hit your next 4th Combo where it's safe again.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

You're also using BoTD during the rotation for it not to fall off, but I feel this would be a bad choice in many cases, since if you lose it because of some mechanic, you then have to wait for it to come off CD again.

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This is rarely the case if you're not throwing GK's like a wild man and anticipate the raid Mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

This way if you miss, you aren't penalized

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I think you're missing the point somehow...

The point is to increase BOTD duration, I am aware, but if you miss your positional on the 4th hit, it's a DPS loss. I'm not saying negate the positional requirement for the full 290 potency, I'm just saying make it less important. The difference between a front/flank Chaos Thrust and a rear is +/- 50 potency, the difference between flank HT and front/rear HT is +/- 70 potency. The difference between a correct positional FC/WT? +/- 190 potency. That's a pretty steep penalty.

Yes, and that's precisely the point. High reward, high risk. It's fine the way it is, you're not supposed to be at 100% at all times.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

The point is to increase BOTD duration, I am aware, but if you miss your positional on the 4th hit, it's a DPS loss. I'm not saying negate the positional requirement for the full 290 potency, I'm just saying make it less important. The difference between a front/flank Chaos Thrust and a rear is +/- 50 potency, the difference between flank HT and front/rear HT is +/- 70 potency. The difference between a correct positional FC/WT? +/- 190 potency. That's a pretty steep penalty.

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I feel like the penalty is compensated by the 30% boost to Jump and SSDive as well as the ability to cast 2-3 GK per minute. Overall its an increase in DPS, it just makes the difference between a good increase and a great increase depending on if you are hitting your positionals for FC/WT. It really isn't a big deal to me and makes fights feel more engaging if anything.

Just remember the times when we had to flank or no HT buff, or we had to hit the rear or no CT combo lol. Those were far worse penalties ;P

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Originally Posted by QCrimson

Yes, and that's precisely the point. High reward, high risk. It's fine the way it is, you're not supposed to be at 100% at all times.

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Nope. High risk, high reward is dancing with Earthshakers next to Bahamut to maintain as much up time as you can.

Wheeling Thrust proc on Ravana when the only damageable spot is on one of the flanks is RNG punishment.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

Nope. High risk, high reward is dancing with Earthshakers next to Bahamut to maintain as much up time as you can.

Wheeling Thrust proc on Ravana when the only damageable spot is on one of the flanks is RNG punishment.

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Positionals have been in FFXIV since release. It's part of being melee, it's part of the game. If anything dragoons were more heavily punished for their positionals when HT and ID did not progress your combo if you did not get the positional.

Go play DPS warrior if you don't want to deal with positionals.

Let's say we do have forced phases where it's not possible to hit positionals, at what point is it worth to dump BoTD on GK and skip 4th combo (miss 1,2,3 4th combos depending on BoTD cooldown?), at what point is it worth to skip 4th combo but not dump it on GK and resume 4th combo on the next combo (assuming you have enough BoTD time).

We were punished severely. Which is exactly why they went and fixed that mess.

Positionals are fine. I've been playing DRG since release. I can cope with something I don't enjoy because I like every single other aspect of the job. But 190 potency loss due to RNG is complete and utter bullshit. RNG punishment is my only complaint.

EDIT: I shouldn't even say RNG punishment. Excessive RNG punishment is more correct. That stuff is why we got our positional fix in the first place.

How are Dragoons parsing in Ravana Ex? Full fight, not just the increased damage one.

At least targets like Bismarck's chitin/corona always give you the positional, quite happy with that. Ravana's Seeing is annoying, but not nearly as annoying as doing Leviathan pre-2.45. Man, that was tedious.

On a different note, I still dream of a shorter cooldown on Elusive Jump. It's always been one of my favourite skills, but running expert roulettes with i150 tanks makes it downright impossible to do my job properly without involuntarily tanking stuff.

Q: Battle Litany and Internal Release are additive, yes? Hence why we use BL first before IR? Or does it not matter and we just use BL b/c the long cooldown and the added buff to our party members?

I have a CHR of 526 atm, and I want to know if I'm dropping a +79 to CHR and then +61, or +79 and +53.

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Originally Posted by Apeiron

Q: Battle Litany and Internal Release are additive, yes? Hence why we use BL first before IR? Or does it not matter and we just use BL b/c the long cooldown and the added buff to our party members?

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From what I remember IR is just a flat 20 percentage points increase in actual crit rate, not a 20% increase of your crit stat. BL should be the same and just go on top of one another for a total of 35%, so as you say applying BL first to make everyone love you is the way to go. Some testing to confirm this would be good though I suppose if it hasn't already been done.

M'mkay. I'd test it myself, but I'm not too keen on how to do this.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

Wheeling Thrust proc on Ravana when the only damageable spot is on one of the flanks is RNG punishment.

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And you don't think that's what they were shooting for when they designed the seeing mechanic ? Yeah, sometimes you'll have trouble landing that 4th hit, so what ? It's not something you can't recover from dps-wise. Every class has to deal with something similar on Ravana.

EDIT: the positional fix happened because of fights like T11. The 4th hit positional requirements are far from being as punishing as HT/ID were back then.

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Originally Posted by Vornin

How are Dragoons parsing in Ravana Ex? Full fight, not just the increased damage one.

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Why would anyone just parse Liberation/Swift Liberation/Prelude To liberation? lol

Anyway, a good i180 parse with i190 spear is 800+.

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Originally Posted by Apeiron

Q: Battle Litany and Internal Release are additive, yes? Hence why we use BL first before IR? Or does it not matter and we just use BL b/c the long cooldown and the added buff to our party members?

I have a CHR of 526 atm, and I want to know if I'm dropping a +79 to CHR and then +61, or +79 and +53.

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Additive.

Pop IR and check your Stats panel. If it were to affect your actual Critical Hit Rating, that value would go up.

Hello, I need to know if after finishing FT/CT you get a buff that tells you which wheeling or fang/claw to use (and if so, its name and duration) or whether it just lights up one of them like a normal combo, w/o applying a buff.

You get two buffs. Either "Enhanced Wheeling Thrust" or "Sharper Fang & Claw". This buff lasts 10s and you instantly lose it upon using another Weapon Skill.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

You get two buffs. Either "Enhanced Wheeling Thrust" or "Sharper Claw & Fang". This buff lasts 10s and you instantly lose it upon using another Weapon Skill.

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Great, just what I needed. So next release you'll be able to test for p1.aura.enhanced_wheeling_thrust and p1.aura.sharper_fang_and_claw

I can't help but wonder how exactly SE's combat development team tested out these rotation creations of theirs. Even taking into account the theoretical potential damage of this ability set, the practical application falls far short, none of the proposed set ups i have read so far would really work in endgame which have, historically, always been very mechanic heavy, and i find it unlikely to change. The issue i take isn't so much the numbers being put out, but the actually feasibility of using them.
Any ability set where you are punished because of things out of your control is flawed design, should a player make a mistake in the rotation that's one thing, but dropping potency to a third because of say, ground persistent AoE like in turn 10 or titan EX for example, where its not only dangerous but downright suicidal, is bad design.

Randomized positionals, where we have no idea in advance where we even need to be at the end of a combo is asinine. If positionals MUST be used, and i fail to see why in the first place as no ranged, caster, or tank job has to deal with them, at least make it predictable, such as say, wheeling thrust is proc'd after chaos, and fang and claw is proc'd after full thrust.
I have to say though the biggest flaw is in how Geirskogul is designed, for something SE claimed would be our big finisher, we got a 200 potency leg sweep? It's absurdly weak for all of the build up and maintenance it requires to even use. And if you are using the rotation as many i have read advised, blood will always be on cooldown so heaven help you in any fight where the boss becomes untargetable for more than a few seconds, which most bosses i can think of do at some point or another.

I have seen a few make comments on the solution to that is to just not use geir, and that alone adds further proof of how absolutely broken this entire ability set is. Blood exists to unlock our new attacks, fang and wheeling exist for a 4th step in our combo, but mainly to extend blood's duration, and all so we can pop geir. So the proposed solution is to not use the very attack that all this build up is meant for? Especially considering how weak that attack is? Rather than be a 'decreases duration' ability that can be used every 30 seconds, increase the potency and have it consume blood, that way it can really only be used once per minute and actually BE the big hitter we were promised.

Updated Damage Models + Preliminary Stat-Weights on OP.

Just waiting for Critical Hit Damage scaling factor and they'll be around 85-90% accurate.

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Originally Posted by Arienal

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It's about being situationally aware. There are some bosses where high uptime is possible and you can throw out 3 Geirs a minute. There are a lot of fights where you can't. It's up to the player to learn the patterns and know when it is safe to blow it. The difference between the post-50 content and pre-50 content is that there are quite a few more mechanics-heavy fights compared to 1-50, all in the name of preparing people for EX Primals/Raid content (which I greatly appreciate).

Also, being a line AOE actually means that it can overperform quite a bit in anything that involves adds as it becomes 200*# of mobs worth of potency which is a big gain.

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Originally Posted by spelley

It's about being situationally aware. There are some bosses where high uptime is possible and you can throw out 3 Geirs a minute. There are a lot of fights where you can't. It's up to the player to learn the patterns and know when it is safe to blow it.

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This. Due to the sheer amount of time spent in each of the coil turns, I know exactly where I'll be in my rotation when each mechanic pops and I've worked good ways of maintaining DPS uptime during add phases in places like T9, T10 and T13. Practice makes perfect, not just for doing a rotation but for knowing how best to plan ten seconds ahead in each fight. Part of what makes raiding fun I reckon.

I can't get in-game at the moment, could anyone tell me what DPS difference we are talking about when holding off on using Geirskogul?

Everyone goes on about DRGs high DPS, but while I do understand what others have said about learning the fights and using Geirskogul carefully, that high DPS doesn't mean anything if you can't get up to that level in any fight.

There's a ton of fights in FCoB for example, where you could theoretically go on using Geirskogul 3 times a minute, but only if you're extremely lucky and don't get targeted by any mechanics at all... And I'm guessing it's normally a DPS gain to just trying to hold on to BoTD rather than risk losing it on mechanics.

NIN doesn't have things like this to worry about, and while MNK falls behind some on DPS, they have an advantage when there's dodging mechanics like that now.

So, to build on my question earlier(I hope I'm not offending anyone, cause I'm very thankful for insight and rotations people have submitted), in a raid like fight which isn't perfect for this tight DRG rotation, where do DRG sit in terms of DPS compared to other jobs?

I can't speak too much about NIN cause I haven't played them at that level, but while MNK have lower potential DPS, they can just pump out full DPS like they always have, and now they don't get as punished with mechanics as before. It's kinda how BLM has higher DPS than SMN, but in most scenarios SMN will be ahead.

I could be completely wrong, and that 200 potency attack might not do too much, I'm sorry then. Didn't really test it out myself.

Over the course of 2 minutes (one full BotD cycle/ rotation reset), 1 GK is 0.3 PPS. There's 6 GK's in that time frame.

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Originally Posted by spelley

Also, being a line AOE actually means that it can overperform quite a bit in anything that involves adds as it becomes 200*# of mobs worth of potency which is a big gain.

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And thats where we hit the issue. i cannot imagine any sane player using geirskogul with all its build up and maintenance as a lane AoE, when doomspike does the same thing, with only 40 less potency per hit, and hits immediately at a much faster rate. 1 geirskogul= 200 times X number of mobs, every 20-30 seconds. doomspike = 160 times same number of mobs, 5-8 times in the same time frame,it doesnt even compare. the Lane AoE factor is a handicap that holds geirskogul down in order to give it a place in a situation where there is no worth in using it.

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Originally Posted by Arienal

but dropping potency to a third because of say, ground persistent AoE like in turn 10 or titan EX for example, where its not only dangerous but downright suicidal, is bad design.

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I can't think of a single moment in Titan ex in which you can't land your positionals. Same goes for turn 10, except maybe when the boss is about to charge. Not saying those moments don't exist in other fights (T11, Ravana ex, ?) but the good thing about our rotation is that it's flexible. If you feel like using the 4th hit is too much of a hassle in certain situations then skip it. Your DPS won't be as good, but it should be good enough.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

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From what few reports/parses I've seen it seems like DRG is still putting up the highest numbers. My guess would be that DRG has the highest potential DPS if all 3 Geirksoguls can be fired off, but they are "balanced" for around 1-2 per minute.. All the DPS jobs have something that can "screw them" out of max DPS:

- NIN has the least combo downtime but they also have to deal with latency issues that greatly effect Mudras/their entire rotation.
- MNKs obviously have to deal with maintaining GL which is also effected by mechanics/jumps
- BLM are heavily dependent on positioning and minimizing movement
- SMN have to deal with jump phases as well because if they mistime a Tri-Disaster/long duration DoT just as a mob jumps, they lose a lot of damage and have to time their Trance usage.
- MCH and BRD have their own set of problems at the moment outside of their class, but movement now effects them similar to BLM in certain instances

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Originally Posted by Arienal

And thats where we hit the issue. SNIP.

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AOE isn't the "point" of Geirskogul, it's just bonus free damage if you line the mobs/adds up properly. It's not used for the 6+ enemy speedpulls, but while single targeting down <= 3-4 mobs, throwing Geirskogul out while doing your normal rotation you get a bunch of free DPS on the others. Also, you can't really maintain HT -> RoT, DT Spam very long before TP runs dry. Usually in a big pull I'm forced to use the AoE rotation, burn Invig, do it some more and then ~200 TP left or so I go back to single target rotation w/BotD Geirskogul's helping put out as much as possible.

Basically, you should be looking at Geirskogul as a 200 potency oGCD with a cooldown of about 20s in high-uptime fights and a 30s cooldown on "erratic" fights that does bonus damage to groups.

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Originally Posted by Arienal

And thats where we hit the issue. i cannot imagine any sane player using geirskogul with all its build up and maintenance as a lane AoE, when doomspike does the same thing, with only 40 less potency per hit, and hits immediately at a much faster rate. 1 geirskogul= 200 times X number of mobs, every 20-30 seconds. doomspike = 160 times same number of mobs, 5-8 times in the same time frame,it doesnt even compare. the Lane AoE factor is a handicap that holds geirskogul down in order to give it a place in a situation where there is no worth in using it.

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It won't be used in a "pure" AoE situation, as in 4+ fairly weak mobs that'll easily die from DS spams before I run out of TP. Hitting the whole pack with GK is a bonus while doing the single-target rotation, just like DFD is in those situations.

EDIT: spelley was faster. ;)

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Originally Posted by spelley

Basically, you should be looking at Geirskogul as a 200 potency oGCD with a cooldown of about 20s in high-uptime fights and a 30s cooldown on "erratic" fights that does bonus damage to groups.

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And so our 'big hitter' is nothing more than a 200 potency leg sweep every 20-30 seconds with absurd build up and punishing of mistakes. Again, this is not worth the effort to even be using for the small amount of gain you do get for it. I throw leg sweep into my rotation because its instant, oGCD, and most bosses are immune to stun anyway. Geir's build up and maintenance for just a stronger version of that leg sweep isn't justifiable.

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Originally Posted by Arienal

And so our 'big hitter' is nothing more than a 200 potency leg sweep every 20-30 seconds with absurd build up and punishing of mistakes. Again, this is not worth the effort to even be using for the small amount of gain you do get for it. I throw leg sweep into my rotation because its instant, oGCD, and most bosses are immune to stun anyway. Geir's build up and maintenance for just a stronger version of that leg sweep isn't justifiable.

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Then don't use it and be a worse DRG than people who do.

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Originally Posted by Arienal

And so our 'big hitter' is nothing more than a 200 potency leg sweep every 20-30 seconds with absurd build up and punishing of mistakes. Again, this is not worth the effort to even be using for the small amount of gain you do get for it. I throw leg sweep into my rotation because its instant, oGCD, and most bosses are immune to stun anyway. Geir's build up and maintenance for just a stronger version of that leg sweep isn't justifiable.

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Are you trolling or something? The whole point of the Expansion was to give classes added depth and put some complexity on there. If you think GK is so bad, then just don't use it and doom yourself to be a third-rate Dragoon. I did a Ravana Extreme yesterday, and GK was 39.71 of my DPS (5%), and that was using it pretty much entirely in a single target fashion, not hitting multiple targets with one. Considering the AoE opportunities there were in FCoB (T10 adds, T12 Bennus, T13 add phase), that percentage is likely going to increase come future raids. Come on man.

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Originally Posted by Arienal

Geir's build up and maintenance for just a stronger version of that leg sweep isn't justifiable.

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Actually, our Big Hitter these days is probably Power Surged Jump (which is actually pretty awesome that our spike damage is our iconic ability). It's a matter of opinion on whether the effort:value ratio is "worth it." Personally, it helps me be a better DPS and I know I wouldn't give up the damage on Leg Sweep for anything, so why would I give up "free" 200 DPS (with potential for much higher) just because it requires me to learn my class better? Anyway, it isn't actually particularly difficult to maintain 2 Geirskogul/min from what I've seen in most content. 3 is the "ideal" but not required.

PS: 4.3k Heavy Thrusted, Blood for Blooded, Blood of the Dragoned, Power Surged, Critical Jump is beautiful to behold.

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Originally Posted by Mibhas

Are you trolling or something?

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No, i assure you I am quite serious. And i don't use geir, yet you know what? despite the fact im still using my pre-HW rotations, aside from BoTD paired with BfB. and yet i still out perform other dragoon's i group with who ARE using geir every chance they get, this happens much too often for it to just be "oh they were a bad drg" so please, enlighten me how i can be a "third rate drg" as you put it, and still outperform people who ARE using this?
All this new ability set does is make us run around more. thats it, thats not added depth.

I just think of Geirskogul as an "unloader". Imaging you have a bucket on a scale and there's a pipe that's constantly filling it up with sand. The weight cannot go beyond 10KG and never below 5kg, otherwise the scale breaks. The sand cannot go over the rim of the bucket. Well, what do you do?

You grab a cup and empty out the bucket every time it starts filling up too much.

At least, that's how I think of it in very child-like, simplistic terms. Bad analogy, I know, but there's absolutely no point in holding Geirskogul.

People are thinking about too many "what ifs" and too much about "punishment". It's not punishing at all, just, don't use a GK or delay it for the next combo, lol. If you don't use GK at all, by the time you hit your 3rd 4th combo, your BotD now has 30s on its timer.

So thinking about it like this, if you're using the "Basic" rotation, you can fit your first Geirskogul after your first 4th combo (IDC4) and you can fit your last GK at 60s or 62s into your rotation just before your BotD refresh, which is either after IDC4, or a Phlebotomize.

This, gives you an amazing gap 30 seconds, or 3 4th combos to use your "second" Gierskogul. http://puu.sh/iLTCA/9fb03d1903.png You don't even need to use your next GK after your BotD instantly either. You can delay it until the next IDC4 combo which pops up.

I don't see what the complaining is about. It's not a punishing mechanic, you just need to learn the timings and the relationships between your GCDs and BotD timing.

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Originally Posted by Arienal

No, i assure you I am quite serious. And i don't use geir, yet you know what? despite the fact im still using my pre-HW rotations, aside from BoTD paired with BfB. and yet i still out perform other dragoon's i group with who ARE using geir every chance they get, this happens much too often for it to just be "oh they were a bad drg" so please, enlighten me how i can be a "third rate drg" as you put it, and still outperform people who ARE using this?
All this new ability set does is make us run around more. thats it, thats not added depth.

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That means they are bad dragoons, as the new BotD rotation is 27.33 Potency Per Second higher if executed correctly. It doesn't matter if you miss out on a GK, or if you hit a 100 Potency positional every while, it's a 27.33 Potency increase, straight out.

New 3.0 Rotation:
http://puu.sh/iLTSL/cd85e26931.png

Old 2.5 Rotation:
http://puu.sh/iLTQF/16ea9ea574.png

PPS is highlighted AB33 - AD33, highlighted in purple "Max PPS".

Stop comparing rotations with newer players who don't understand their new rotations and/or lack skills. Because the math doesn't checkout with your subjective statements at all.