Does instant transportation effect game immersion?

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

that anime is epic

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Yup, was great.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

Actually you have a point, I'd forgotten about mage and city portals, been a while since I played it. I still can't think of a single time in the whole 5 years I played it where I had a memorable experience in exploration, usually I just found myself running back to my corpse after bouncing off a cliff or something.

Also 90% of Warcraft enviroments was copy & paste too, ashenvale itself had at least 5 'caves' in it that were all completely identical, and caves in Teldrassil that were also identical to them too, and even ones added in Cataclysm. Same with the buildings.

Hard to find any MMO though that doesn't feature some form of copy&paste somewhere.

As it is though I wasn't lieing, I find this game more enjoyable, because it doesn't dictate what I have to do. I don't have to kill things, I can spend the time gathering, crafting or just exploring and admiring the surroundings. In Warcraft to see any real content I'd HAVE to kill stuff because I'd HAVE to gain levels so I can move into new zones to gather materials to craft. If I didn't every monster within a 15 mile radius would be chasing me.

As for barely thinking of any stories... plenty that people have posted in this forum, heck my linkshell has a thread on their forum devoted to letting everyone else in the LS know what adventures they'd recently been up to.

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You are using information solely based on your singular point of view because you didn't have memorable moments. Sure WoW had copy paste houses and caves but each area was so much different than the next. So many times had I found a secret trail or path to get to somewhere that people don't know about or get to places that was blocked off that used to be there and you find a way with a group of friends or try to get to other areas that were uncharted via map. This was before flying mounts but even after there was always a cool place off the map where you would find some ruins or something crazy like that you know Blizzard put there for the people who liked to truly explore their world. FFXIV had one or two places like that where I said hey I found this really neat place and the response I always got back was "Oh that place I was there like the first day the game came out". I guess games that have invisible walls more than not and lack fluidity of full mobility really lack immersion for me. I really enjoy FFXIV but it definitely is missing several key elements that will really make me feel a part of Eorzea.

Hmmm, I don't know how I feel about this.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I was unaware there was anything really left to say in this thread...

I think about 30 pages ago everything that could be said pretty much was, I think we are arguing in cricles still. It's a matter of personal preference wether the insta warps ruin your gameplay experience or not. Just because people have the option doesn't mean it doesn't effect them, the option really does take out all the "Point" of walking.

Sure you can still walk...but why? It's not rewarding anymore like it used to be. Walking to somewhere used to have a point "To get there in one peice" but now that that's invalidated with the airships it really isn't rewarding or even really has a point to be being done. There isn't anything to really see if your just going from city-city, nor is it dangerous, nor is it engaging at all currently.

I can see why people want the warp, I'm still not really bought on the fact that nobody has "The time" to get to places...but I understand the mentality of many who just want to bang out everything as fast as possible. I think it's unhealthy for the game for people to be able to do this...but I understand why they want to be able to do it. People treat MMO's like work more and more nowdays, it's all about maximizing your time/productivity instead of getting wrapped up in a world where you get to forget about how hard you worked, or how crappy your day was.

It's a different mentality between I and the people who want the stuff right away, and I'm sure those people who want instant airships all have their own lines they will draw in the sand eventually and say "That's enough"

I've put my point across that I think a more dynamic world should be worked on before introducing ways to bypass the empty world we currently play in, it's just encouraging the developers to keep pushing work on the overworld back farther and farther when they know they can keep people happy by allowing them to bypass the world.

I don't want the game to become a giant series of instanced content...

But really I hope the people argueing circles around eachother can really just accept that there are two sides to this arguement and no matter what you say the other side isn't listening, nor is either side "Right" it's a matter of preferences...yes that includes involving a "Choice" the option to never have that "Choice" is my preference, because it effect my gameplay experience in a way I don't want it too.

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I agree. We are going in circles, only because this is a really hard subject to argue about.

A bit of clairvoyance struck me in the median of this ruckus; the mechanics of this MMO are being adjusted to a more time sensitive audience. Concisely, it's accommodating for individuals with the lack of. To be disgruntled with SE about this "casual conscious" decision (a monetary one for a business is understandable) is ridiculous.

So, taking a step back from this thread, I pondered about immersion. Is immersion the actual involvement in an activity or is it a gauge of just how deeply involved with it we are? So, ultimately at the nadir, isn't every last one of us immersed?

So then, immersion isn't subjective; Only the level of it and feelings are. Love or lump your version of immersion, you still are regardless. To play anything, involvement is necessary on the most basic level. Deep or shallow of this involvement is insignificant.

These mechanics being adjusted for people with less play time are bringing down the enjoyment of us adventurers who have a higher level of immersion than most, and reducing our overall fun and experience. Travel means traversing distances, recognizing and feeling distance substantiates massiveness. Remove travel, you therefore remove the essense of massiveness. Now it's MORPG. Last I recall, this is supposed to be an online world. Perception of massiveness is a major principle of a world.

I read your argument of my post Quanta, I'm pressed for time, so I'll immerse myself later on to append my rebuttal to this thread.

OMG I'm such a nerd.

My response to Jobeto-Rin can be viewed after the spoiler despite it not being directed to me:

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Originally Posted by Jobeto-Rin

I agree. We are going in circles, only because this is a really hard subject to argue about.

A bit of clairvoyance struck me in the median of this ruckus; the mechanics of this MMO are being adjusted to a more time sensitive audience. Concisely, it's accommodating for individuals with the lack of. To be disgruntled with SE about this "casual conscious" decision (a monetary one for a business is understandable) is ridiculous.

So, taking a step back from this thread, I pondered about immersion. Is immersion the actual involvement in an activity or is it a gauge of just how deeply involved with it we are?I think everyone in this thread is referring to the common element of how we can be immersed in a medium, particularly how Square Enix does so. So, ultimately at the nadir, isn't every last one of us immersed?Yes to some extent. Just by choosing to log in there is a level of immersion that is required of the user, but that's the base of it. I've shown the different levels of how a person can be immersed but a lot of that has to do with the how much they are involved. I've shown how a person can become deeply immersed in Pong. You'll find that people's immersion is different across generations and mediums. Some people are immersed by chess, other are immersed by books. Some are absolutely incapable of becoming immersed in these activities because it doesn't appeal to their interests. Even Dungeons and Dragons style pen and paper Role Playing games can't be enjoyed by some because they don't want to utilize the imagination necessary to participate. They may be interested in the same themes and genre that D&D present, but they lack the hook. So they move to a medium that provides that hook. I don't see how this makes immersion anything but subjective.

So then, immersion isn't subjectiveHow have you showed this? To make this true with the information provided the only way I can rationlize immersion being objective is that people are choosing to log in. The very act in and of itself is immersion. After that, the levels to which we are immersed becomes increasingly more subjective as your immersion level grows.; Only the level of it and feelings areThe level of it and feelings are. I don't think only though. As some people don't move beyond the "hook".. Love or lump your version of immersion,Not to be off topic but I found this sentence beautifully poetic. I don't understand the phrase "love or lump" but I'll assume that it's akin to "love or loathe" you still are regardless.Yes. To play anything, involvement is necessary on the most basic level.Yes Deep or shallow of this involvement is insignificant.Yes, because the level of immersion is dependent the individual.

These mechanics being adjusted for people with less play time are bringing down the enjoyment of us adventurersI don't understand why because there is a lore explanation for teleportation. who have a higher level of immersion than most, and reducing our overall fun and experience.But you aren't them. You can be only you. Only you can experience your experiences. Travel means traversing distances, recognizing and feeling distance substantiates massiveness.But it's wholly unnecessary to completely base your immersion on it. As shown by another poster in this thread. We don't watch a character sleep for 8 hours. The character rests in the bed. The camera fades out. Then in mere moments, the camera fades in to a sunlit filled room. This, in general doesn't break immersion for movie goers. The argument against this is even more poorly supported with the context of the situation we find ourselves in. It's as if the viewer were given the option of whether or not they wanted to watch the person sleep, then complained about that their level of immersion was disturbed because another person decided not to watch the sleep sequence Remove travel, you therefore remove the essense of massiveness.Yes, but no one is calling for the developers to remove travel. Now it's MORPG. Last I recall, this is supposed to be an online world. Perception of massiveness is a major principle of a world.And it is still retained and preserved by not forcing you to teleport and giving you a lore that supports teleportation if you wanted. SE went to lore explanation than they were required and I respect them for that. I'm glad there is a reasoning to explain teleportation.

I read your argument of my post Quanta, I'm pressed for time, so I'll immerse myself later on to append my rebuttal to this thread.

OMG I'm such a nerd.

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We're all nerds. I love it. I'm in good company. While I was a bit confused with your post at first I looked up a couple terms and phrases and it made a little more sense but your points seem contradictory.

I feel this is where the responses will start to get very complicated as I'm unable to just "respond off the cuff" as I've been able to before. I'm looking forward to it.

I couldn't do all that quote stuff so I just bold my original quote and red is Rhomagus response.

"So, ultimately at the nadir, isn't every last one of us immersed?" Yes to some extent


To some extent?
You are either immersed/involved or not. Your playing the game or your not. Period
There is no gray. You are still being immersed into it. We all are being immersed, the only difference is our level of it. That is the point being made.

"Just by choosing to log in there is a level of immersion that is required of the user, but that's the base of it."

There you said it for me. That's all I needed to read. Any level of immersion is now subjective.

"Only the level of it and feelings are" The level of it and feelings are. I don't think only though. As some people don't move beyond the "hook"..

Just because the "hook" wasn't enjoyable enough, does not mean they're not immersed. It means they're not enjoying the immersion that the game "hook" provides. That is what's subjective. We are being immersed into FFXIV, regardless. the level of it depends on the person. Therefore reducing things to accommodate for the people who are less immersed is taking away from the people who are. Options on airship rides is an example, because traveling is important to immersion. Explained below.

"Love or lump your version of immersion," Not to be off topic but I found this sentence beautifully poetic. I don't understand the phrase "love or lump" but I'll assume that it's akin to "love or loathe"

Yes, it's equivalent to that, lol thank you. I'm into poetry and have intermittent urges to rhyme. They overtake me at times.

"who have a higher level of immersion than most, and reducing our overall fun and experience."
But you aren't them. You can be only you. Only you can experience your experiences.

The same can be said about you and your experiences. If I can't speak for others, how can you?

"Travel means traversing distances, recognizing and feeling distance substantiates massiveness."
But it's wholly unnecessary to completely base your immersion on it.

Yes it is necessary! In order to feel distance you have to travel it. Movement is needed to justify going somewhere. No shortcuts. You take away a vital component to making an imaginary world large. If you see a long long long hallway and a door at the end, your probably going to think, "damn thats a long ass hallway." So you walk and you walk and you walk and you walk until arrival. That walking substantiates it, not only in your mind but also body wise, that you went somewhere because it took time to get there. Now if you see a button on the wall that says skip, press it and then your at the door. More than likely your going to be like "Well damn, that wasn't too far". The necessity, the need, the requirement to move long distances justifies massiveness. Without it there it remains only a mirage. That's messed up a virtual world mirage? Jesus.

As shown by another poster in this thread. We don't watch a character sleep for 8 hours.

There are different ways to immerse someone in a game, that is a different type of immersion tact. It's not affected by airship rides. The immersion type I'm referring to is relevant to the feeling of the size this world. The main thing being effected.

I argued teleportion should be at aetherytes only. I failed to show why. Now this? No freaking way. Leave us our airships. You guys have anima to use wisely! Please. These things are ruining the experience for those who do become immersed in it at a high level.

and I'm not the only one who feels this way.

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Originally Posted by Jobeto-Rin

There are different ways to immerse someone in a game

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I agree.

I prefer to be immersed in game play.

You prefer to be immersed in travel play.

Square has offered both preferences to us.

Instant travel for me so I can begin playing the game quickly - so the game is less boring for me.

Slow travel for you so you can travel for long periods - so the world feels large for you.

I won't ask Square to take away your preferred immersion if you stop asking Square to take away my preferred immersion.

Deal?

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Originally Posted by Crica

I agree.

I prefer to be immersed in game play.

You prefer to be immersed in travel play.

Square has offered both preferences to us.

Instant travel for me so I can begin playing the game quickly - so the game is less boring for me.

Slow travel for you so you can travel for long periods - so the world feels large for you.

I won't ask Square to take away your preferred immersion if you stop asking Square to take away my preferred immersion.

Deal?

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so you'd be ok if i decided i wanted to be immersed by instantly getting all jobs to rank 50 and avoiding boring grinding?

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

so you'd be ok if i decided i wanted to be immersed by instantly getting all jobs to rank 50 and avoiding boring grinding?

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Is it going to stop me from leveling my own jobs if I want to? No.

So why would I care?

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Originally Posted by Crica

Is it going to stop me from leveling my own jobs if I want to? No.

So why would I care?

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Because it decreases the value of a level 50. It demerits the accomplishment. It diminishes the sense of achievement.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

Because it decreases the value of a level 50. It demerits the accomplishment. It diminishes the sense of achievement.

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For who? Me? No.

I play games to have fun.

If I am having fun leveling a job, why would it matter to me if you are not leveling a job?

Anyway, immersion is such a vague term, and most of the time a thread like this all comes down to an argument of definitions. "My immersion is better than your immersion".

The thread title should be: "does instant transport effect the game's scope, sense of adventure, etc?"

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Originally Posted by Crica

For who? Me? No.

I play games to have fun.

If I am having fun leveling a job, why would it matter to me if you are not leveling a job?

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Because I'm taking performance-enhancing drugs to best you in a sport you are playing. Anyway, I'm bored of talking about you now.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

"does instant transport effect the game's scope, sense of adventure, etc?"

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If you use it, I am sure it could.

If you don't use it, no.

You would be adventuring and seeing the scope of the game if you do not use it.

So my advice would be to not use it if you want "adventure and scope".

Why does that have to include making sure I can't use it, however?

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

Because I'm taking performance-enhancing drugs to best you in a sport you are playing. Anyway, I'm bored of talking about you now.

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Sport?

I am not competing with you when I level my jobs.

I level jobs because it is fun for me.

You have nothing to do with the reason I level my jobs.

There is no sport if there is no competitor.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

Anyway, immersion is such a vague term, and most of the time a thread like this all comes down to an argument of definitions. "My immersion is better than your immersion".

The thread title should be: "does instant transport effect the game's scope, sense of adventure, etc?"

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lol yeah i didn't realize immersion would spark so much debate x_x

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Originally Posted by Crica

Sport?

I am not competing with you when I level my jobs.

I level jobs because it is fun for me.

You have nothing to do with the reason I level my jobs.

There is no sport if there is no competitor.

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do you honestly think an MMO where everyone can just cheat and get anything would ever be a success?

Neuroscience has shown humans gain large amounts of satisfaction from being better than those around them (ingame terms: having e-peen gear). This is a large part of why capitalism works. So knowing that, do you really think people want a game where everyone is automatically and forever essentially equal?

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

lol yeah i didn't realize immersion would spark so much debate x_x

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Anytime you want to take away an option from another person who wants to have access to the option, it will spark debate.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

an MMO where everyone can just cheat

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Cheat?

It would have to be against the rules of the game to be considered "cheating".

If the game rules stipulate players have the option to choose to level jobs themselves or to choose to have jobs instantly leveled by the game, there is no cheating when a player chooses either of those options.

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Originally Posted by Crica

Cheat?

It would have to be against the rules of the game to be considered "cheating".

If the game rules stipulate players have the option to choose to level jobs themselves or to choose to have jobs instantly leveled by the game, there is no cheating when a player chooses either of those options.

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ok so let me put it another way, if FFXIV allowed everyone to choose their level and warp anywhere and stuff like that, do you think it would have players?

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

do you really think people want a game where everyone is automatically and forever essentially equal?

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Ask them if you want to know.

I don't play games to compete, I play them because I find the game play fun.

So personally, I do not care about if others are equal to me in the game or not.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

if FFXIV allowed everyone to choose their level and warp anywhere and stuff like that, do you think it would have players?

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Take a poll if you want to know if everyone who reads this forum would or not.

Would I play that game? Yes. I enjoy fast travel and being max level in a game.

I would find it more enjoyable to level my character myself, however, so having the option to level my character myself would entice me to play the game even more.

For the sake of relevance, take a lookie at this:

Konata's Ideas For Chocobos

If instant teleporting ruins 'immersion' for you then this could be exactly what you could hope for, customisable chocobos to ride around on ^.^ (and lots of other fun 'immersive' stuff too :p)

Ah anyway, it is Affect.

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Originally Posted by Crica

You prefer to be immersed in travel play.

I won't ask Square to take away your preferred immersion if you stop asking Square to take away my preferred immersion.

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I prefer to be immersed in this game, period.

Your "preferred immersion" options prevent that.

Why should I have to lower/sacrifice my level of immersion for your time's sake?

That is like watching a basketball game with only 2 quarters because people have no time to stay and view all 4.

I'm supposed to cut my enjoyment to 2 quarters because you don't have time?

Give me a break.

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Originally Posted by Jobeto-Rin

I prefer to be immersed in this game, period.

Your "preferred immersion" options prevent that.

Why should I have to lower/sacrifice my level of immersion for your time's sake?

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I do not stop you from traveling slowly and becoming immersed in your slow travel when I travel fast.

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Originally Posted by Crica

I do not stop you from traveling slowly and becoming immersed in your slow travel when I travel fast.

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The issue arises when they want groups. The fear is that the majority of people will always take the fast travel option when it presents itself, and will scoff at or party kick someone who would rather take the long way. In other words, once they're on borrowed time, they lose their choice to peer pressure; on their own time, they're perfectly fine.

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Originally Posted by Crica

I do not stop you from traveling slowly and becoming immersed in your slow travel when I travel fast.

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If you want to travel fast why not leave the airship alone? Stick to anima?

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Originally Posted by Jobeto-Rin

If you want to travel fast why not leave the airship alone? Stick to anima?

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Because the Airship is free?

If you could get a quest that leveled you up +10 if you did it once would you?

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Originally Posted by Quanta

The issue arises when they want groups.

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I would not group with them if they were to travel slowly? Correct.

Nor would they group with me if I were to play in a way they did not enjoy either.

That's life however - you only group with those of like-minds.

We are completely different in our ideas of "fun" so they are not loosing a potential game mate since I would never be playing with them from the beginning - if FFXIV did not include fast travel, I would never play the game, therefore it would be illogical to conclude that if fast travel were to be done away with, they would gain me as a game mate.

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Originally Posted by Jobeto-Rin

If you could get a quest that leveled you up +10 if you did it once would you?

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Already answered that a few posts back.

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Originally Posted by Crica

Already answered that a few posts back.

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You are still leveling your character yourself. Your just skipping 10 levels. Would you be okay with that?

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Originally Posted by Jobeto-Rin

I prefer to be immersed in this game, period.

Your "preferred immersion" options prevent that.

Why should I have to lower/sacrifice my level of immersion for your time's sake?

That is like watching a basketball game with only 2 quarters because people have no time to stay and view all 4.

I'm supposed to cut my enjoyment to 2 quarters because you don't have time?

Give me a break.

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Sonic The Hedgehog travels fast.

Tails travels slow.

I don't see Tails always complaining to Sonic that he's ruining the immersion. :p

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Originally Posted by Jobeto-Rin

You are still leveling your character yourself. Your just skipping 10 levels. Would you be okay with that?

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If I found it to be fun, I would choose that option.

If I did not find it to be fun, I would not choose that option.

If that was the ONLY option, I would try it to see if I found it fun and then decide if I wanted to continue to play the game.

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Originally Posted by Crica

If I found it to be fun, I would choose that option.

If I did not find it to be fun, I would not choose that option.

If that was the ONLY option, I would try it to see if I found it fun and then decide if I wanted to continue to play the game.

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I take it you were very good at dodge ball.

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Originally Posted by Jobeto-Rin

I take it you were very good at dodge ball.

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I don't like competition, therefore I don't play sports and as a result I do not know if I am good at them or not.

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Originally Posted by Crica

I don't like competition, therefore I don't play sports and as a result I do not know if I am good at them or not.

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It was a witty response because you dodged my question

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Originally Posted by Jobeto-Rin

It was a witty response because you dodged my question

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I thoroughly answered all variations of how I would approach the option you presented.

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Originally Posted by Jobeto-Rin

It was a witty response because you dodged my question

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You must be pretty good at dodgeball too

You've been dodging the topic for the last 5 or 6 posts XD