FF14 is not made for hardcore players.

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Originally Posted by MagicAura

No actually, there are no game rules set by the developers that state people who don't meet the bare minimum should be open to criticism. That's nonsense. If someone is making your DF group (please notice the big DF here) a mess, you have three options as given by the game's mechanics:

1. Leave the group.
2. Initiate a kick.
3. Persevere and finish the dungeon.

You can offer the option of help in a nice way too but only when the time is right together with the circumstances. Notice the "option" to help. I am not talking about unsolicited advice here.

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To be fair, there is equally no game rules where you aren't allowed to offer constructive criticism. Regardless, your entire argument hinges on it being toxic—which it isn't. You taking offense to something does not make it inherently toxic. In fact, you could easily spin it the opposite way. A healer refusing to DPS because it isn't their playstyle is deliberately making a dungeon take longer due to their selfishness; a tank not using cooldowns because "healers should heal and not worry about DPS" is, again, selfish. And as this is a cooperative game, your performance does matter as it impacts other players. They have just as much a right to voice their opinions as you.

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Originally Posted by TribalReturns

You definitely sound like part of the problem here. You really shouldn't want to dictate what people should or shouldn't be doing. Performance is little to no issue in normals dungeons/trials and even experts(at a certaint point)in every expansion. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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And then people wonder why dungeons are considered boring, dull and unimaginative—something even the developers have acknowledged. Perhaps, it's because they're so pathetically easy because how dare we expect anything beyond a pulse from someone at max level. People, typically, aren't going into dungeons, trials or even Savage PF expecting top tier performance. They're expecting reasonably competency. That's a pretty low bar.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

To be fair, there is equally no game rules where you aren't allowed to offer constructive criticism. Regardless, your entire argument hinges on it being toxic—which it isn't. You taking offense to something does not make it inherently toxic. In fact, you could easily spin it the opposite way. A healer refusing to DPS because it isn't their playstyle is deliberately making a dungeon take longer due to their selfishness; a tank not using cooldowns because "healers should heal and not worry about DPS" is, again, selfish. And as this is a cooperative game, your performance does matter as it impacts other players. They have just as much a right to voice their opinions as you.

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Of course they have the right to voice their opinions. And I never claimed that offering advice is in itself toxic. Rather, the way it's offered can be. And again--putting aside the case of rudeness--advice being rejected is part of the human condition. Some people will accept it, some people will reject it. My argument is that attempting to change the way people operate, when one doesn't really know who is on the other side of the cable, is a risk. Some will accept gracefully, some will reject gracefully, some will reject rudely. Personally I have no tolerance for any kind of abuse, be it mocking because my play is found wanting, or a bad response for offering to help.

And you know depending on the case, people will behave differently. I'll give you an example from my own experience. I'm levelling healers and trying to learn the combined healer/dps gameplay. I'm still so very noob and clueless. A couple of days ago, I was in Brayfox's Longstop and at some point the tank went much lower than I was comfortable because I forgot myself DPSing. I started healing desperately and as fast as I could but the tank's health wasn't coming up. The more that happened, the more I panicked. I was on SCH so Selene helped but my brain just stopped working. The tank survived but I was left wondering what was happening. And then I thought: had I targeted the tank for healing? As I thought of that the tank said to me: pay attention to who your target is.

My response was to apologise and tell him I had panicked. I'm a big girl and owning my mistakes is natural to me. We moved on and the rest of the dungeon went without issues albeit with me a little more shaken than normal.

Now I can see how at that point, someone, due to shame or other reasons may lash out and reject the obvious help. The tank wasn't rude, they were practical. It's not that I didn't know that I need to target the right person to heal. It's the panic that had spoken. But it's a coin toss when you offer any kind of advice as to how people will respond. Someone else in my place may had taken that as a personal attack and may had responded differently.

Hope that makes sense. In essence, I see the point of the people who want competent gameplay but when you use the DF, it's a random chance. Fretting about that is a waste of energy and pointless. No amount of tutorials or carrots will ever change the human mindset and condition.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

And as this is a cooperative game, your performance does matter as it impacts other players. They have just as much a right to voice their opinions as you.

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There is a difference between 'opinion', 'critique' and 'offering advice'. The problem is that some appear to assume opinion = advice.

I assume you are talking specifically about the forums themselves, where opinions are well within bounds.

Give 'opinions' of play style to another player in-game and yes, you've crossed a boundary line.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

There is a difference between 'opinion', 'critique' and 'offering advice'. The problem is that some appear to assume opinion = advice.

I assume you are talking specifically about the forums themselves, where opinions are well within bounds.

Give 'opinions' of play style to another player in-game and yes, you've crossed a boundary line.

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Yeah pretty much this.

Speaking as one of those filthy casuals your raid leader warned you about...

In Heavensward I was worse at the game than I am now. There was a right and wrong way to criticize my performance even then.

WRONG: Once I ran Vault and did badly. I got the pet and the other black mage said "Of COURSE the (censored) Black mage got the pet" (censored being a curse word for bad, probably not the worst word you can think of though I just don't want a forum vacation)

WRONG: Doing badly in a Alexander pug. Someone brought a guild mate into the group to join in on laughing at me. Yes, this happened. I stopped playing the game for a couple years.

RIGHT: Doing badly in a dungeon. The tank said "BLM, you should use your fire spells in this order." This may have been blunt but he gave good advice that I followed and he did not insult me in the process.

What I'm getting at is...recognize that everyone you are grouped with a person. You can criticize and offer advice without being insulting.

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Originally Posted by MagicAura

I never said it is and will never perceive it as such. You and everyone else are free to expect anything you want and fancy. The elitism starts when people decide what people should play or not and whether people "should" accept advice or not. In the same way you are free to expect anything you want, so are others free to accept your advice or not. I\\'ve said it many times, there are as many personalities as people who play the game and expecting everyone to adhere to some random floor you have decided is "appropriate", that is elitism. People play for different reasons and with different attitudes. Accept that and your frustration when someone rejects your advice will go down significantly.

My own play revolves around getting better while playing the game and my belief is that I can do that without external help unless I have specific questions about a job, in which case I will go and ask my guildmates. Learning process is different for everyone and takes a different time to move from basics to semi-advanced stuff. I will make mistakes, I will mess, I\\'ll apologise, I\\'ll accept advice if someone offers it politely and at the appropriate time. But that\\'s me. I don\\'t expect the same from everyone I meet at the DF because if I do that it\\'s an exercise in futility and the only option I\\'d have, would be to come here and complain about random people I don\\'t know anything about. So I take things stoically, I choose to persevere, on one occasion I left the group, but really the other people aren\\'t an issue unless I choose to make one out of them.

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Nobody really cares about the dungeon performance to be frank. It’s Alliance and NM Raids where ppl frankly want others to not waste their time since it’s primarily q’d through the df.

It’s really not asking for much to be at least able to do the core of your rotation, dodge mechanics consistently, pull bosses in correct spot, shield raid-wides, and use your self sustains....that’s literally the bare minimum. How many ppl generally perform at that level??? I’d say maybe, JUST maybe 50%. That means half of the players don’t really care about the other half’s effort or time.

Now offering advice 99% of the time in these scenarios(unless someone is new) is generally meme’d on and other passive aggressive shenanigans afterwards. How respectful is that?!?!?

People are all their for the same goal. I don’t see why they aren’t at all motivated to put in the same work. Inb4 but they can have issues and outside problems holding them back. Well then I say to you; Why aren’t they in a place to q for optional content that requires ppl work together and put in the same amount of effort since they’re offered the same rewards at the end?

Advice isn’t forbidden and neither is casual/elitist players. Choosing your content based on your abilities over your wants should come before even attempting said content. Otherwise it’s all for selfish reasons.

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Originally Posted by Caitsithhh

Nobody really cares about the dungeon performance to be frank. It’s Alliance and NM Raids where ppl frankly want others to not waste their time since it’s primarily q’d through the df.

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In reality, I've read enough posts in these forums over the last 6 years to know there are plenty of people who post who appear to care about MSQ dungeon and trial performance without your qualifiers.

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Originally Posted by Caitsithhh

Nobody really cares about the dungeon performance to be frank. It’s Alliance and NM Raids where ppl frankly want others to not waste their time since it’s primarily q’d through the df.

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People who care about performance care about it in everything that can be queued for, everything that isn't extreme/savage/ultimate can be cleared blind, easily accessed thru DF and have similar levels of difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Caitsithhh

Advice isn’t forbidden and neither is casual/elitist players. Choosing your content based on your abilities over your wants should come before even attempting said content. Otherwise it’s all for selfish reasons.

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There is barely any high-end content available and Ultimate raiding is really difficult to get into. If there was no drought of content or no incentive for skilled players to do roulettes, you wouldn't hear complaints about toxicity regarding performances and expectations all that much. Unfortunately, the game forces people who clearly don't want to play together to mingle.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

People who care about performance care about it in everything that can be queued for, everything that isn't extreme/savage/ultimate can be cleared blind, easily accessed thru DF and have similar levels of difficulty.



There is barely any high-end content available and Ultimate raiding is really difficult to get into. If there was no drought of content or no incentive for skilled players to do roulettes, you wouldn't hear complaints about toxicity regarding performances and expectations all that much. Unfortunately, the game forces people who clearly don't want to play together to mingle.

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If you read, you’d notice I didn’t mention high end or “newer” extremes since it’s assumed you’re up to the challenge and only q’d through pf. It’s fair game to be graded on your abilities in any of those, no questions.

And generally most df content can be cleared by rolling your face across the keyboard. That doesn’t make it right though. Too many people get up in arms elitist this and elitist that when a person has a request like; “OT grab the boss” after it’s killed a dps when the MT dies... List can go on with many other boneheaded mistakes that can be remedied with only a little awareness.

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Originally Posted by Caitsithhh

List can go on with many other boneheaded mistakes that can be remedied with only a little awareness.

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Rip awareness it got removed from the game :C

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

There is a difference between 'opinion', 'critique' and 'offering advice'. The problem is that some appear to assume opinion = advice.

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Sure, but the opposite is also true where many players appear to assume advice = opinion.

For example, they receive constructive criticism that can be backed up with math, logic and reliable sources but don't even listen in the first place because "that's just their opinion and I prefer mine", and continue on their way playing Ice Mage, single pulling mobs or spamming Cure I all dungeon.