New summoner is unacceptable

I'm confident in the fact that in the next few months more and more people will grow tired of this job and finally realize how shallow it is

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

1. Bahamut/phoenix cd is based on on spell speed and not a strict 60cd. This allows both to drift out of 60sec and 120 buff windows that a party will provide

2. This even applies to our own buff, Searing Light. We will have to delay bahamut or delay the CD or we are waiting on both.


3. This points out the fault of carby. It hinders us severally. After every summon it returns to us so we need to position it every time we want to use searing light. Which can potentially delay our cd because carby is slow. As well depending on what summon you are using can be hetic to place carby

4. Phoenix is a dps loss for flavor and utility you cannot use when you need to

5. Ifrit design is weak for no reason and should technically be the strongest since we have to get it into melee range and two long casts. We are going to have to reserve swiftcast for this.

7. Ruin 4 is very awkward and easily forgettable. It serves no point in our rotation outside of a pointless extra mobility option.

8. We have a ton of instant cast but nothing to fill the gap with. You get two festers that are immediately burned off in bahamut/phoenix

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I think you just summerized everything I feel like is wrong with the class, simplicity isn't a bad thing and summoner definitely needed some changes. But these changes feel just rather weird in some points and I really wish they'd mix Aetherflow up just a little bit just to make it feel important again beyond "mash the button when it comes off CD". Ruin IV not feeling important is just a side effect of you basically never having to cast ruin III, maybe make aetherflow CD reduce by using the gemshine casts of ifrit/titan/garuda or something?

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Welcome to the club where your job plays itself.
Let me press Flamethrower, summon the automaton queen and make you a coffee.

On a more serious note, SQEX failed to deliver 3, maybe 4 reworks if we add Monk.
Yes, the job is appealing to more, but it came at the cost of its core playerbase.

Maybe now, players will finally notice that Job Design is unequal among all jobs? That some jobs are just not acceptable?

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Well IMO the moral of the story is that asking for a rework is not a good ask. I see it everywhere: rework from the ground up, burn it all and rebuild, etc. Well, see the SMN rework. It went from a big hairy and grubby beard to absolutely, jarringly, clean shaven. I can't believe how little space the abilities take. As was said by those in charge, they indeed with "popular" demand reworked and laid the ground for an SMN that will take a new direction... and grow with time. A "rework" as was asked for. Don't fix the issues at the time.

It's a completely different Summoner, and visibly barebones. It's what they'll build upon come future expansions. I'm speaking purely aside from my personal opinion of whether I like the Job or not.

It's like... Reworks aren't always going to go in the best, most peachy direction. Okay, you don't like how the Job works. Don't play it. Or fine, what changes would you like? An overhaul while an easy thing to demand will split fans apart way more.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Well IMO the moral of the story is that asking for a rework is not a good ask. I see it everywhere: rework from the ground up, burn it all and rebuild, etc. Well, see the SMN rework. It went from a big hairy and grubby beard to absolutely, jarringly, clean shaven. I can't believe how little space the abilities take. As was said by those in charge, they indeed with "popular" demand reworked and laid the ground for an SMN that will take a new direction... and grow with time. A "rework" as was asked for. Don't fix the issues at the time.

It's a completely different Summoner, and visibly barebones. It's what they'll build upon come future expansions. I'm speaking purely aside from my personal opinion of whether I like the Job or not.

It's like... Reworks aren't always going to go in the best, most peachy direction. Okay, you don't like how the Job works. Don't play it. Or fine, what changes would you like? An overhaul while an easy thing to demand will split fans apart way more.

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People always say "It's groundwork they'll build on!" about every rework, and they either don't, or they do so in a direction that's objectively for the worse.

Maybe its just me, but i feel like maybe level 30 is the place where a job should feel like a "base to be built on" and not level 90....

I like the new SMN design a lot better than the old one but it does feel like it wants some more frequent OGCDs to press. Right now it kinda feels like clubbing the enemy to death with a variety of elementally-flavored rocks.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/...ky.png%3Alarge

Well, the phys ranged tax is real LOL. Also notice how the skill floor-ceiling gap is the smallest on SMN.

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Do you have a source for that or more information on it?

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Originally Posted by kejakalope

Do you have a source for that or more information on it?

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https://twitter.com/h1dla/status/147...pMwAKHJmw&s=19

Also this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/comments/rg1rv1/job_performance_in_extremes_over_the_last_week/

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Originally Posted by kejakalope

I like the new SMN design a lot better than the old one but it does feel like it wants some more frequent OGCDs to press. Right now it kinda feels like clubbing the enemy to death with a variety of elementally-flavored rocks.

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Level 86 with Titan out fixes that. You get an oGCD you can use after every Ruin.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/...ky.png%3Alarge

Well, the phys ranged tax is real LOL. Also notice how the skill floor-ceiling gap is the smallest on SMN.

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But I was told SMN had room for crazy optimization...

So we got a boring, unrewarding AND weak job. Nice.

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Originally Posted by rewd

But I was told SMN had room for crazy optimization...

So we got a boring, unrewarding AND weak job. Nice.

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There will likely be some potency adjustments after the new raid releases, as there always is. If SMN is in a bit of a bad place now damage wise, hopefully it won't stay there.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

There will likely be some potency adjustments after the new raid releases, as there always is. If SMN is in a bit of a bad place now damage wise, hopefully it won't stay there.

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Yes, I'm expecting buffs (even OP buffs, because that's SMN tradition). Too bad the rest is staying the same. I'd rather play a weak but fun job.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Yes, I'm expecting buffs (even OP buffs, because that's SMN tradition). Too bad the rest is staying the same. I'd rather play a weak but fun job.

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To each their own. Personally, I am enjoying the revamped SMN.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Yes, I'm expecting buffs (even OP buffs, because that's SMN tradition). Too bad the rest is staying the same. I'd rather play a weak but fun job.

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I find this way better than old SMN, a hell of a lot faster paced for one.

I know SE doesn't do ability adjustments between expansions but I really hope they make an exception for this job pre-90. The entire class doesn't get its rhythm until 86 and I'm having very little fun playing it pre-90 despite mostly enjoying it at 90.

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Originally Posted by rewd

But I was told SMN had room for crazy optimization...

So we got a boring, unrewarding AND weak job. Nice.

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The vast majority of people who think that SMN had room for crazy optimization likely weren't even passable players to begin with.

The current optimization paradigm for summoner mostly comes from SpS tiering, and that is not what most of the people who argued that SMN will be complex mentioned. Choosing which primal to summon in order to move and hardcast successfully is barely an optimization - that is something you should pick up after literally two or three pulls.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

To each their own. Personally, I am enjoying the revamped SMN.

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Same. I really like the new summoner. It feels more like the old FF game summons where they pop out, do a big attack, and then vanish. It also gives SE the opportunity to give us Leviathan, Shiva, and Ramuh summons in the future (hopefully), since they aren't going to be permanent pets.

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Originally Posted by rewd

But I was told SMN had room for crazy optimization...

So we got a boring, unrewarding AND weak job. Nice.

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I'm not sure if this was intended, but summoner seems to be being treated as a ranged DPS. I'm so on the fence about this job, but this graphic saddens me. We really are the new red mage in this expansion. Red mage I remember being very simple and straightforward, and two expansions later the job is in a really good place. They've built upon the simple base they created. It just saddens me that it's 6.0 we're just getting this base. 7.0 is at least 2 years away.

I know very little about reaper, but this means that they obviously need nerfs right? Reaper has one of the smallest skill gap-floors out of all the jobs and is at the very top of the scale? I'm not sure where they are on the utility-scale, but just looking at their tool tips, they have a raid damage buff.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

I know SE doesn't do ability adjustments between expansions but I really hope they make an exception for this job pre-90. The entire class doesn't get its rhythm until 86 and I'm having very little fun playing it pre-90 despite mostly enjoying it at 90.

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Have you played though an expansion. Because SE does do ability adjustments between expansions.

At this point SE should just straight out make SMN a limited job because they clearly have no idea what to do with it otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I'm not sure if this was intended, but summoner seems to be being treated as a ranged DPS. I'm so on the fence about this job, but this graphic saddens me. We really are the new red mage in this expansion. Red mage I remember being very simple and straightforward, and two expansions later the job is in a really good place. They've built upon the simple base they created. It just saddens me that it's 6.0 we're just getting this base. 7.0 is at least 2 years away.

I know very little about reaper, but this means that they obviously need nerfs right? Reaper has one of the smallest skill gap-floors out of all the jobs and is at the very top of the scale? I'm not sure where they are on the utility-scale, but just looking at their tool tips, they have a raid damage buff.

Thoughts?

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Even if it's intended, they need to fix it because SMN is still a magical ranged DPS, so it has to compete with BLM and RDM. As it stands, SMN is a dead job because there is no reason to bring it for speedruns (BLM is better) or prog (RDM is better).

As for Reaper, it's overturned. High personal damage, a raid DPS buff and a party regen which, unlike SMN's, you can time. And it's also on a 30s cooldown assuming you get the shield to break (it's only 10% HP, so it pretty much breaks every time).

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Originally Posted by Skiros

The vast majority of people who think that SMN had room for crazy optimization likely weren't even passable players to begin with.

The current optimization paradigm for summoner mostly comes from SpS tiering, and that is not what most of the people who argued that SMN will be complex mentioned. Choosing which primal to summon in order to move and hardcast successfully is barely an optimization - that is something you should pick up after literally two or three pulls.

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What job really has optimization any more? That died last expansion

I actually enjoy the new Summoner. I hated it before and was just levelled because of Scholar. Now, I am having a blast with it!

I don't hate the new summoner. Maybe even like it. However, it doesn't excite me. I think it might be time to find a new main. I just have no idea what since I've been with the summoner for so long.

I had the same issue. I just couldn’t get comfortable with the new summoner, but I wasn’t sure what else to do. I jumped onto scholar mainly because it was the same level. I figured I’d just force myself to play healer until I could think of something better. Weird thing is, it turns out I’m loving scholar now. Something just clicked during a trust, and now I can’t imagine wanting to be anything but a healer! Guess I’m going to have to give sage a try, too.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

At this point SE should just straight out make SMN a limited job because they clearly have no idea what to do with it otherwise.

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I am fine with this. maybe in the next mmo, they can make a good smn

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Originally Posted by lezard21

At this point SE should just straight out make SMN a limited job because they clearly have no idea what to do with it otherwise.

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Just make it like FF 11 SMN.... FF 11 SMN was so much fun

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Originally Posted by lezard21

At this point SE should just straight out make SMN a limited job because they clearly have no idea what to do with it otherwise.

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This is exactly how you upset more people than necessary.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

At this point SE should just straight out make SMN a limited job because they clearly have no idea what to do with it otherwise.

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Imagine being this deep into Endwalker and still saying things like this. It is time to *move on.*

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Originally Posted by Navycrow

Just make it like FF 11 SMN.... FF 11 SMN was so much fun

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There is some ridiculous romanticization of FFXI Summoner going on in this thread. The job was a total disaster for well over a decade.

For at least a few years after it was released, avatar perpetuation cost was so steep and Blood Pact abilities so weak that no one ever even summoned anything. They had everyone playing SMN use a WHM support job and use their big MP pool to heal people. And they didn't have Haste or Refresh, so they were the last possible choice for that role anyway. Oh and you had to be max level in something else first (which could easily take some people a whole year in that game) because obtaining all the summons required endgame fights. Not that you'd be summoning them anyway.

Eventually they gave them some decent buffs and separated Blood Pact into two abilities with separate timers, so you could conceivably give people some buffs and throw out a single damage spell. People like me still waited many hours to get invited to parties like this, because the damage was worse than pretty much anyone else's and the buffs weren't even close to an actual buffer like Bard. You also needed an even more endgame fight to be able to do this than the original summons - Fenrir. Avatars also couldn't magic burst or skillchain for a long time (I forget the exact timing of these additions now) which were important to early parties, and then when this functionality was added it was still hard to time.

After many years, when the third expansion had been out for some time, SMN finally got invited to some specific endgame events for a couple of abilities that were powerful against very high level enemies. Although this did make them more desirable overall than the many jobs in XI that just got ignored by players, the gameplay here wasn't anything all that special. In fact, it was very similar to old-school summoning, because every minute (slightly less because of gear) you'd summon one thing, have it use one ability, release it, and then rest for the remainder of the cooldown.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Imagine being this deep into Endwalker and still saying things like this. It is time to *move on.*

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That guy is just a troll. He just says the most inflammatory thing he can think of in every thread. Safe to ignore him.

I LOVE IT.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

Oh and you had to be max level in something else first (which could easily take some people a whole year in that game) because obtaining all the summons required endgame fights.

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Not entirely true. If I recall correctly, it wasn't very long after NA release that the mini trials, or whatever they are called, were introduced for the base summons (everything before Fenrir and Diabolos). It's how I acquired some of the avatars.

You are definitely correct though in terms of SMN lacking an identity until endgame that wasn't supportive healing, at least until Fenrir. SMN burn parties, next to manaburn parties, were in stupidly high demand for some endgame content by that time. Outside of those though, even though they were fairly strong thanks to Fenrir, they definitely were pretty questionable in usage for being SMN. Of course, the fact SMN burns were a thing and could do endgame stuff really easily is exactly why people wanted to have them. It really had nothing to do with regular party usage.

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Originally Posted by RocciaSolida

I'm confident in the fact that in the next few months more and more people will grow tired of this job and finally realize how shallow it is

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Hasn’t worked with MCH so doubt it’s, and still waiting for a DNC naysayer which are rarer than a PS5

And yup, just as I feared, all this continuous 1 spam is causing hand strain...

Needs more damage. Zero point in tanking one over a bard ATM.

Less damage less utility.

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Originally Posted by EverQuest

Needs more damage. Zero point in tanking one over a bard ATM.

Less damage less utility.

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If you look at damage to boss, BRD and SMN are largely equal ATM. SMN seems to suffer more from bad killtimes in my experience though.

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Originally Posted by Roda

And yup, just as I feared, all this continuous 1 spam is causing hand strain...

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It's causing me more sanity strain than hand strain. It's so boring that I weave Energy Drain/Siphon and Fester/Painflare during Garuda's 1.5 gcds because that's the only semblance to fun it has, well, before level 86.

I think its a blast and I love the way it looks even when Titans big butt is blocking my screen. Really enjoying it. I think they should just spin off an Alchemist class that focuses on the old style of dot game play via tossing poison potions for those that want Affliction Warlock and leave SMN the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Psytic

I think its a blast and I love the way it looks even when Titans big butt is blocking my screen. Really enjoying it. I think they should just spin off an Alchemist class that focuses on the old style of dot game play via tossing poison potions for those that want Affliction Warlock and leave SMN the way it is.

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Not sure if you lack reading comprehension or just didn't read, but the problem is a lot of people just hate the class design, myself included.

And you probably didn't play smn pre-6.0 and/or affliction warlock if you think they are comparable. The only thing they had in common was having dots and a pet.