Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Be my guest. I will gladly pick up your slack in expert dungeons, I don't really mind. But you have no place in my *something* ex farm party. In that case you won't hear me, but you'll definitely feel the boot.

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Nice selective quoting of what I said..thanks for highlighting what the issue actually is.

This thread is garbage. If your bad I don't care because I could care less and wouldn't say a thing. If you think I'm bad and call me out I couldn't care less. Grow some thicker skin. And for the losers talking smack get a life.

I don't understand why are some people content with being bad and being a burden for the others :/

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Originally Posted by xaventh

This thread is garbage.

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Hey, look! Something we can probably all agree on.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I mean, as far as healers go...if it's between multitasking and failing to keep people alive and just straight healing I'd have to go with the latter instead of the former. Good healers can juggle, but I do think some people are simply better off healing only. I've seen more than a few healers who have tried to dps and couldn't keep their party members alive. Thankfully not a majority, or at least not in my experience. But still, I agree that healers should be able to do both. Tanks can do the same when it comes to threat generation and dps.

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The part for me with healers that don't dps are the ones that wont even if there is no damage going out but there's a dps check happening. That was and has been defended as being ok by some in some of the old healer dps threads. Like during the dps phase against Diablos in Dun Scathe or other instances like it.

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Originally Posted by plamya

I don't understand why are some people content with being bad and being a burden for the others :/

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It's not just that some are content with being bad, I've run across more than a few ingame that demand to be bad, and are deeply offended when you don't carry them.

I told a dragoon in my FC wearing a level 1 ring to update the ring with something cheap (they were 63.) They came back to me the next day crying about getting kicked because someone looked at their gear, and then got mortally offended when I told them they earned the kick. This is where I get the "autoattacking dragoon" I enjoy lampooning, because they were literally that. Their original character was a black mage, but they rerolled dragoon because the "stormblood mobs are too hard." Not the dungeons, the freaking open world mobs.

They got offended enough when I took the kicker's side I ended up booting them from the FC too just so I didn't have to hear their bellyaching about "elitists." "Elitists" that expect more than a level 1 ring on a 63. Absolutely no regrets; I carried their ass through ARR and Heavensward, and the only effort they put into any of it was to remain willfully ignorant of every system in the game.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

In the first year I started FFXIV, there was plenty of toxicity. Does anybody remember Titan HM for relic, before they fixed the latency?

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I do. I got kicked from parties because of the delightful latency the PS3 and the American servers give me. I had to watch/read guides to learn Titan's rotation and then count to 4 after every attack he did. This was the only way I ever managed to clear Titan HM and get my Relic +1.

I don't like being carried and I also do not like carrying other people.

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Originally Posted by xaventh

This thread is garbage. If your bad I don't care because I could care less and wouldn't say a thing. If you think I'm bad and call me out I couldn't care less. Grow some thicker skin. And for the losers talking smack get a life.

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Well, the moment that you had to insult everyone at the end is the moment you lost any credibility towards being part of the discussion in the first place.

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Originally Posted by plamya

I don't understand why are some people content with being bad and being a burden for the others :/

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Since most bad players do not view themselves as being bad players.

A few bad players view themselves as being great and better then the rest. As examples the worst dps and tank I have meet falls into this category, the dps was during 2.x and while he was insanely bad and had worse ideas then a stone (yes an actual stone would have better ideas) he was in dungeons always complaining about the pugs being bad... one conversation went like this.
Him: You better watch your enmity management now, I am this close to stealing it.
Me looking at reality: What are you going on about? Your not even close on any of them.
Him: Well ya, I see a red circle around one monster!
And here I facepalm.
The tank was also in 2.x though he from time to time play even now and this example is from the first 24man.
Him, in tank stance as of-tank spamming the enmity combo: Haha, I am so good at this, just see me stealing enmity from that loser main-tank.
Me playing drg here: Get out of tank-stance and stop making me miss my positional attacks!
Him: Don't blame me! Blame the MT!
So ya, the first one do not play anymore and the other one I avoid. For these players there are no help, just blacklist and move on.

Most bad players view themselves as good enough, thinking it is the group they get that makes the difference and not them. Hey, they got through the content so why not think this with the lack of any tools to measure their true performance. Some of these players can be helped, but only if they care to become better once they see at what level they perform.

Then the few bad players that know they are bad. These are the ones most likely to improve, and as they do they will no longer be bad players.

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Originally Posted by Soraki-Muppe

Since most bad players do not view themselves as being bad players.

A few bad players view themselves as being great and better then the rest. As examples the worst dps and tank I have meet falls into this category, the dps was during 2.x and while he was insanely bad and had worse ideas then a stone (yes an actual stone would have better ideas) he was in dungeons always complaining about the pugs being bad... one conversation went like this.

(conversation edited out for length)

Most bad players view themselves as good enough, thinking it is the group they get that makes the difference and not them. Hey, they got through the content so why not think this with the lack of any tools to measure their true performance. Some of these players can be helped, but only if they care to become better once they see at what level they perform.

Then the few bad players that know they are bad. These are the ones most likely to improve, and as they do they will no longer be bad players.

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The game does a terrible job of providing feedback to players, so this is ultimately Square's folly.

I'm not referring exclusively to an accurate measurement of dps, but also:
• the solo instances (meant as a gateway) in the game providing echo
• double experience bonus for new characters for all (not limited) classes, crafting or combat, for months
• double experience for first clears
• no gate (non-echo) on Savage/Extreme/Expert
• commendations given out at random for challenge log
• overnerfing of outdated content, yet not adjusting progression rewards
• damage requirements and damage dealt in dungeons so low a full team of healers or a full team of tanks can clear just about anything
• storymode trials being nothing more than a bump in the road until they suddenly aren't (specifically referring to healers' perspective)
• every NPC on green earth worshiping the player
• level skips
• no-effort "content" that gives free levels without teaching anything relevant to current level (potd/hoh/roulettes).

Any of these, individually, aren't enough to torpedo the entire reason why levels exist, but as long as these exist in combination there's little reason to have levels at all. As it currently stands, levels do not act as a gate for progression for new players -- let alone alts -- they are only a measurement of time. And not much time.

The original (wholistic) design of 2.0 was much better at gating players, and by extension putting a hold on their progress until they figured out the essentials of what they need to know for a given level. It went a bit overboard with Titan, but they overcorrected. These designs have eroded to the point where a tank insists he's doing great because he has 250 commendations at 70, yet only uses the halone combo and Requiescat without holy spirit. On the tank he leveled through HOH spam, story skipped, and topped off with MSQ roulette.

Basically, Square's failing is they've gotten to the point where they'll only tell players yes to anything, and are more than happy to give advancement in exchange for nothing. Players naturally act spoiled and think they're doing fine because Square has forgotten to say no, saving it for a brick wall after 70. Square does nothing to keep them away from that brick wall if they are unprepared. Players, wittingly or unwittingly, tolerate this without kicking a player that can't be distinguished from a badly-made bot because it's "mean". Nevermind it's twice as mean to carry someone to a clear that's just going to put them deeper underwater.

And then, after encountering that brick wall, those players complain about elitists (read as: "person I don't like") and how a solo fight quest in 4.4 requires the use of four buttons and moving around in some AOE, and how The Burn is too hard.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

The game does a terrible job of providing feedback to players, so this is ultimately Square's folly.

I'm not referring exclusively to an accurate measurement of dps, but also:
• the solo instances (meant as a gateway) in the game providing echo
• double experience bonus for new characters for all (not limited) classes, crafting or combat, for months
• double experience for first clears
• no gate (non-echo) on Savage/Extreme/Expert
• commendations given out at random for challenge log
• overnerfing of outdated content, yet not adjusting progression rewards
• damage requirements and damage dealt in dungeons so low a full team of healers or a full team of tanks can clear just about anything
• storymode trials being nothing more than a bump in the road until they suddenly aren't
• every NPC on green earth worshiping the player
• level skips
• no-effort "content" that gives free levels without teaching anything relevant to current level (potd/hoh/roulettes).

Any of these, individually, aren't enough to torpedo the entire reason why levels exist, but as long as these exist in combination there's little reason to have levels at all. As it currently stands, levels do not act as a gate for progression for new players -- let alone alts -- they are only a measurement of time. And not much time.

The original (wholistic) design of 2.0 was much better at gating players, and by extension putting a hold on their progress until they figured out the essentials of what they need to know for a given level. It went a bit overboard with Titan, but they overcorrected. These designs have eroded to the point where a tank insists he's doing great because he has 250 commendations at 70, yet only uses the halone combo and Requiescat without holy spirit. On the tank he leveled through HOH spam, story skipped, and topped off with MSQ roulette.

Basically, Square's failing is they've gotten to the point where they'll only tell players yes to anything, and are more than happy to give advancement in exchange for nothing. Players naturally act spoiled and think they're doing fine because Square has forgotten to say no, saving it for a brick wall after 70. Square does nothing to keep them away from that brick wall if they are unprepared. Players, wittingly or unwittingly, tolerate this without kicking a player that can't be distinguished from a badly-made bot because it's "mean". Nevermind it's twice as mean to carry someone to a clear that's just going to put them deeper underwater.

And then, after encountering that brick wall, those players complain about elitists (read as: "person I don't like") and how a solo fight quest in 4.4 requires the use of four buttons and moving around in some AOE, and how The Burn is too hard.

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Well, trying to balance between a reasonable challenge for as much people as possible is going to be a double-edged sword.

Catering too much to the lower-skilled will result in faceroll duties. It could increase confidence of the lesser skilled and really casual, but will also drive away those who want the thrill of the fight.

Catering too much to the hardcore may also drive away potential players for this game.

At the end of the day, casuals tend to pay the bills, whether they are good or bad in attitude, gameplay, or tastes. I'll take what I've got and make use of what I have.

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

Well, trying to balance between a reasonable challenge for as much people as possible is going to be a double-edged sword.

Catering too much to the lower-skilled will result in faceroll duties. It could increase confidence of the lesser skilled and really casual, but will also drive away those who want the thrill of the fight.

Catering too much to the hardcore may also drive away potential players for this game.

At the end of the day, casuals tend to pay the bills, whether they are good or bad in attitude, gameplay, or tastes. I'll take what I've got and make use of what I have.

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I think you missed the point of the post. This isn't about catering. This is about making players aware that they are playing the game wrong. There were a lot of tools in ARR to teach players, guildhests, "intelligent" dungeon design, and a slow enough pacing to teach you your job, and players were able to use that time to learn how to play their job. With deep dungeon and level skip though, players can simply bypass all of that and get to 70 easily without needing to know anything.

I get that square is going for accessibility of endgame, but they forget that this is a multiplayer game and that flooding endgame with uneducated players makes endgame less accessible for those that know what they are doing, and further promotes toxic attitudes.

When I get called an elitist for leaving an enrage party for chaos savage after 5 runs, despite not going lower than 70%, I feel like SE can do more.

Yet, before deep dungeon was a thing you had people fate grinding their levels and still not knowing how to do their job at 50 or 60 in any content that wasn't a fate.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

The game does a terrible job of providing feedback to players, so this is ultimately Square's folly.

I'm not referring exclusively to an accurate measurement of dps, but also:
• the solo instances (meant as a gateway) in the game providing echo
• double experience bonus for new characters for all (not limited) classes, crafting or combat, for months
• double experience for first clears
• no gate (non-echo) on Savage/Extreme/Expert
• commendations given out at random for challenge log
• overnerfing of outdated content, yet not adjusting progression rewards
• damage requirements and damage dealt in dungeons so low a full team of healers or a full team of tanks can clear just about anything
• storymode trials being nothing more than a bump in the road until they suddenly aren't (specifically referring to healers' perspective)
• every NPC on green earth worshiping the player
• level skips
• no-effort "content" that gives free levels without teaching anything relevant to current level (potd/hoh/roulettes).

Any of these, individually, aren't enough to torpedo the entire reason why levels exist, but as long as these exist in combination there's little reason to have levels at all. As it currently stands, levels do not act as a gate for progression for new players -- let alone alts -- they are only a measurement of time. And not much time.

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I have just seen a PF for The Vault, description said first time and unsynched ^^

I think Deep Dungeon is a great place for getting to learn your skills at any sort of level. You can even practice with your full 60/70 kit long before you would normally get it. You can literally get a head start over people who level up any other way.

The thing is, baddies will be baddies no matter how they go about their leveling process. You can't fault DD or FATEs or any one particular leveling path for this.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Basically, Square's failing is they've gotten to the point where they'll only tell players yes to anything, and are more than happy to give advancement in exchange for nothing. Players naturally act spoiled and think they're doing fine because Square has forgotten to say no, saving it for a brick wall after 70. Square does nothing to keep them away from that brick wall if they are unprepared.

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I do agree with this. I've seen players jumping into Savage and getting frustrated and baffled why groups are kicking them for low dps, bad gear and baffled why they die so easily. I mean, they cleared Normal so easily. The gap between everything 1-70 Normal and EX/Savage is immense and nothing prepares you for it, quite the opposite you spend 70 levels being tricked into thinking you're amazing at the game.

As for kicking, depends what you mean. I don't agree with auto-kicking a nice player who forgot or misunderstood a mechanic but at least tried it, or slipped on one mechanic or is missing a part in their rotation but is willing to listen to advice. In that case you can give that advice, they can put it into practice and learn something.
If it's players like that guy in the other thread "I was told to use Shield lob but Flash works fine for me so I ignored my group" then by all means give the boot, it's a good lesson in having a better attitude towards your team.

Last night I talked to my friend who left the game because of the toxicity in Dungeons and this is pretty much what she had to say.

"I watched all the videos on how to tank, I used all the current rotations, and made sure I watched videos on the fights before hand, then end result was people still telling me to kill myself or threatening to find me and my family and hurt them. I finally deciphered that "Bad" = you don't play the way I want, or I just really want to harass someone.

And honestly if you have to watch movies and learn sql formulas it isn't a game...it's a interactive spreadsheet with three frat bros who want to show their power over you. That's okay I can play FFXV and not have to pay to be threatened and degraded."

And since I have heard something similar to this more times than I can count...I'll just say nice job FFXIV has lost it's awesome community status to become League of Legends, and this is why we can't have nice things.

I know there is going to be several of us who plan to bring it up at Fanfest this year.....but if SE want's to emulate Blizzard to the point it wants it's terrible community nothing will be done.....where is GM Dave when you need him.

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Originally Posted by Jett-Rinn

Last night I talked to my friend who left the game because of the toxicity in Dungeons and this is pretty much what she had to say.

"I watched all the videos on how to tank, I used all the current rotations, and made sure I watched videos on the fights before hand, then end result was people still telling me to kill myself or threatening to find me and my family and hurt them. I finally deciphered that "Bad" = you don't play the way I want, or I just really want to harass someone.

And honestly if you have to watch movies and learn sql formulas it isn't a game...it's a interactive spreadsheet with three frat bros who want to show their power over you. That's okay I can play FFXV and not have to pay to be threatened and degraded."

And since I have heard something similar to this more times than I can count...I'll just say nice job FFXIV has lost it's awesome community status to become League of Legends, and this is why we can't have nice things.

I know there is going to be several of us who plan to bring it up at Fanfest this year.....but if SE want's to emulate Blizzard to the point it wants it's community nothing will be done.....where is GM Dave when you need him.

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Don't worry about bringing your overexagerated claims to the fanfest. You're going to be drowned out by the "We want Viera now" groups.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Don't worry about bringing your overexagerated claims to the fanfest. You're going to be drowned out by the "We want Viera now" groups.

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It's "Over exaggerated" two words.... and there not, SE has the screens of the chat....but it's typical, the toxics first reaction is to always say it doesn't happen.

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Originally Posted by Jett-Rinn

It's "Over exaggerated" two words.... and there not, SE has the screens of the chat....but it's typical, the toxics first reaction is to always say it doesn't happen.

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>Tries to correct someone else
>Made several grammatical mistakes himself

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Originally Posted by Jett-Rinn

It's "Over exaggerated" two words.... and there not, SE has the screens of the chat....but it's typical, the toxics first reaction is to always say it doesn't happen.

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Gotta be extra careful about your own spelling/grammar when you are calling someone else out.

Anyway, regardless of my thoughts on this overall thread, I really hate the term "toxic". It's up there with "white knights" on my hate list. If you don't agree with someone's opinion or stance, that's fine, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're toxic (or a white knight).

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Originally Posted by Jett-Rinn

It's "Over exaggerated" two words.... and there not, SE has the screens of the chat....but it's typical, the toxics first reaction is to always say it doesn't happen.

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*they're not - if you want to nitpick on someones spelling, make sure you get yours right...

And jerkish behaviour happens, no one is denying that. However, when I hear stories about someone being constantly attacked/kicked etc. I start to wonder if we're hearing the full stories.
I'm not saying your friend is lying and I'm unsure wether she was talking about one or several incidents - if it was only one and she quit the game over it... phew... I'm again not saying that that sort of behaviour is right, but growing a thicker skin can go a long way in life.
If several groups called her "bad", she might have had more trouble putting that video-watching into action than she'd like to admit. Again, that doesnt warrant any kind of insult, but it sounds very unlikely to me that several people would rally up against a tank whos actually playing fine. Just watching a video doesnt cut it, at least not for some people - personally, I need to understand a fight or a job to perform well within it. So I make sure I understand what I'm doing before jumping into content.

I main a tank btw and in my 5 years of playing I had two groups telling me I sucked - one was correct, the other one wasnt. I have to admit I find it strange to hear stories about people constantly being harassed with no reason... I rarely see that happening.
The community is by far not as bad as you're trying to make it look - not defending people insulting your friend, but I stand by my point that if someone calls you (hypothetical you) bad, you should ask yourself whos the problem right now - you or the other guy. And you being the problem should be an answer you should really consider and think about before dismissing this as someone being toxic.

If we want to get super nitpicky, "overexaggerate" isn't even a thing, because it's superfluous. "Exaggerate" already means to overtly emphasize something; the "over" part is unneeded.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

*they're not - if you want to nitpick on someones spelling, make sure you get yours right...

And jerkish behaviour happens, no one is denying that. However, when I hear stories about someone being constantly attacked/kicked etc. I start to wonder if we're hearing the full stories.
I'm not saying your friend is lying and I'm unsure wether she was talking about one or several incidents - if it was only one and she quit the game over it... phew... I'm again not saying that that sort of behaviour is right, but growing a thicker skin can go a long way in life.
If several groups called her "bad", she might have had more trouble putting that video-watching into action than she'd like to admit. Again, that doesnt warrant any kind of insult, but it sounds very unlikely to me that several people would rally up against a tank whos actually playing fine. Just watching a video doesnt cut it, at least not for some people - personally, I need to understand a fight or a job to perform well within it. So I make sure I understand what I'm doing before jumping into content.

I main a tank btw and in my 5 years of playing I had two groups telling me I sucked - one was correct, the other one wasnt. I have to admit I find it strange to hear stories about people constantly being harassed with no reason... I rarely see that happening.
The community is by far not as bad as you're trying to make it look - not defending people insulting your friend, but I stand by my point that if someone calls you (hypothetical you) bad, you should ask yourself whos the problem right now - you or the other guy. And you being the problem should be an answer you should really consider and think about before dismissing this as someone being toxic.

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This is pretty much what I tried to say earlier, but somehow it was me saying to "always blame the victim" to this guy when it couldn't be further from the truth. There are coincidences, and then there are patterns. Patterns tend to paint a very different picture.

You shouldn't encourage people to be fine as they are in the game. If they are playing bad, then you use constructive criticism to help them, not harassment. If you harass them, then two problems are created in this scenario. It is simple as that. You can help someone without being an ass. If they act like an ass in return for you giving constructive criticism, then it is on them and not you.

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Originally Posted by Jett-Rinn

"I watched all the videos on how to tank, I used all the current rotations, and made sure I watched videos on the fights before hand, then end result was people still telling me to kill myself or threatening to find me and my family and hurt them. I finally deciphered that "Bad" = you don't play the way I want, or I just really want to harass someone.

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I honestly don't understand this. I have been playing mmos since 2002, ran a ls in xi for nearly 10 years and one in this game for 3, I also play eso, dabbled in WoW and GW2 among others and I have never come across this sort of harassment outside maybe a couple of times, usually by unsupervised 12 yr olds or ppl with a known rep on the server that ppl just avoid anyway. Same with my other half, and my friends who also play mmos.

So either we have all been extremely lucky in our time gaming, or these ppl have been extremely unlucky or someone is being over dramatic. Really who can say.

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Originally Posted by Jett-Rinn

And honestly if you have to watch movies and learn sql formulas it isn't a game...it's a interactive spreadsheet with three frat bros who want to show their power over you. That's okay I can play FFXV and not have to pay to be threatened and degraded.

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I have however come across this type of attitude and I must say if you are not willing to learn how the game works and you are wrecking the experience for everyone else, everyone else isn't the problem. You cannot expect to do group activities if you actively don't want to use the tools the game provides you and are holding everyone else back just because you are being stubborn or lazy. If you don't like the mechanics of a job or game, then...don't play. Just because you are a ff fan doesn't mean you have the right to play it however you want and everyone else has to just deal with your poor attitude. Or expecting the dev team to change their vision of the game because a few ppl find it "too hard" is ridiculous, esp in a game this already faceroll easy if you take a moment to learn it.

I have had to kick ppl from raid groups for not knowing rotations or basics of dodging after spending days face down in the dirt because of one person. Then it is always me who is the big bad elitist or bro who "wants to show his power" yada yada yada w/e. No, I am someone who wants to progress through content and since you are actively not taking the initiative to learn your role and you are causing 7 other ppl to waste time, then we are not the big bad guys here. We are just guys and gals who took the time to learn our jobs and want to play the game.

And not everyone does endgame or get shiny weapons to be epeen or lord it over others. The vast majority of us do it because we like it. I honestly stopped doing endgame in ffxiv because of the poor attitude, not of the raiders, but of all the ppl who want to raid but not learn their job, rotations or role and expect everyone else to just let them do what they want because they don't pay their sub or they have a real life, job, kids, w/e the excuse it. I raid in other games because the attitude is better. Sucks, I would love to down primals and run Omega, but it's just easier not to.

So, remind me, who ruins the game for others again?

"It is my 12.99 a month, I will play how I want."

It is our 90.93 a month and we say you are playing terribly and we don't want you in the group if you are not trying to play optimally to the best of your abilities.

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Originally Posted by Jett-Rinn

It's "Over exaggerated" two words.... and there not, SE has the screens of the chat....but it's typical, the toxics first reaction is to always say it doesn't happen.

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You can't claim that others are being toxic when the entire context of everything you write is rife with vitriol and unnecessary spite towards others just because you think we should hold everyone's hands like we're back in grade school again.

You pay your sub money, you can do poorly on your own time. I pay my sub money, I can expect competency and improvement from the people that group with me. If I want partners that lay dead on the floor every few minutes, I'll play a Tales game or something, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Jett-Rinn

It's "Over exaggerated" two words.... and there not, SE has the screens of the chat....but it's typical, the toxics first reaction is to always say it doesn't happen.

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Trying to correct people and then call them toxic. Seems somewhat weird.

Its also pretty funny to compare the FF community with the LoL community...if you get flamed in both games in the same way you should think about what you are doing wrong and not complain that others are beeing toxic because there are tons of players who don't have your problems in final fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Jett-Rinn

Last night I talked to my friend who left the game because of the toxicity in Dungeons and this is pretty much what she had to say.

"I watched all the videos on how to tank, I used all the current rotations, and made sure I watched videos on the fights before hand, then end result was people still telling me to kill myself or threatening to find me and my family and hurt them. I finally deciphered that "Bad" = you don't play the way I want, or I just really want to harass someone.

And honestly if you have to watch movies and learn sql formulas it isn't a game...it's a interactive spreadsheet with three frat bros who want to show their power over you. That's okay I can play FFXV and not have to pay to be threatened and degraded."

And since I have heard something similar to this more times than I can count...I'll just say nice job FFXIV has lost it's awesome community status to become League of Legends, and this is why we can't have nice things.

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I think this is a bit ridiculous.

Firstly, the idea that a game shouldn't involve watching tutorials and such is absurd. It's akin to saying that poker is ruined because players need to know that a full house beats a flush, but is itself beaten by a straight flush. Tutorial videos for fights are, in effect, the instruction manuals for group play in an MMO.

Secondly, while I certainly don't know the whole story surrounding your friend, I must confess, I don't feel like I'm getting an accurate picture. FFXIV is my first MMO, and actually my first real computer game. I'd literally never controlled a game with a mouse and keyboard before FFXIV. I still get overwhelmed by basic combos at times, depending upon how many mechanics are going off. I haven't done much in the way of theory-crafting, and rely mostly on a brief dungeon guide video for any content I do. I say this, because I am the exact example of someone who is likely to experience criticism in dungeons. I know I've sucked before, I'm sure I'm not totally up to snuff today, and I'd bet money I'll take a step backward for awhile when 5.0 introduces new abilities (presumably).

Despite all this, I have never, ever been the target of criticism like this before. I've never been kicked from a party. I don't even know if I've been called bad. All the missed mechanics, all the sub-par DPS, all the screw-ups: never once experienced what I'd describe as strong criticism, let alone received threats. In fact, I can't even recall this sort of behaviour being directed at other players I've been in parties with, either. I've just never seen it. I mentioned this thread to my boyfriend, who has played XI and XIV for close to 15 years combined, and he can't recall seeing this at any point, either.

So for me, it's hard to believe some parts of your post. It just doesn't match the community I've seen. I don't run EX or Savage content (or even 8-person Raids), and I wouldn't be surprised if there's more toxicity there, but it very much appears to me that you're being hyperbolic, and likely also leaving out some key parts of the story.

All I know is if I were experiencing ridiculous amounts of harassment (not disagreements in playstyle, harassment), I'd be screenshoting it all and reporting left and right. I might not even have party chat turned on. I play this game because I like it and immature people who can't communicate issues in a run without profanity, threats and drama aren't going to ruin my good time.

Such people are ill-behaved or have temperment issues they aren't addressing. It's not your job to deal with that. Silence them one way or another and go on with your day.

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Originally Posted by Jett-Rinn

It's "Over exaggerated" two words.... and there not, SE has the screens of the chat....but it's typical, the toxics first reaction is to always say it doesn't happen.

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I’ve played this game for almost 3 years now, done all types of content from casual to Ultimate, and I wasn’t always the best player either. But I’ve never seen someone threaten to hurt someone or their family simply for bad play. So either the claim is overexaggerated, or there is far more to the story to prompt someone to actually threaten bodily harm. If there was an actual threat like this, a report to the GMs would get the individual banned, because the GMs do take cases of harassment like this seriously, regardless of what people like to say.

But since we’d rather play the Spelling Police: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict...overexaggerate
And it’s “they’re”; not “there”. Before you try to correct someone else on spelling/grammar, may want to check your own first. Just saying.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Anyway, regardless of my thoughts on this overall thread, I really hate the term "toxic". It's up there with "white knights" on my hate list. If you don't agree with someone's opinion or stance, that's fine, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're toxic (or a white knight).

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“Toxic” has reached the point where it doesn’t even sound like a word anymore.

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Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev

I don't run EX or Savage content (or even 8-person Raids), and I wouldn't be surprised if there's more toxicity there, but it very much appears to me that you're being hyperbolic, and likely also leaving out some key parts of the story.

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I’ll give some insight on Extremes/Savage content. The “toxicity” that occurs in there usually only occurs because someone is making consistent mistakes that is wiping the group and refuses to stop making them (e.g., learning how to do a mechanic correctly, as opposed to failing it multiple times); is doing significantly low damage (and this is usually not called out because of how taboo parsers are—people are usually either silently removed or the party is disbanded); or someone else starts blaming other players for things they are doing wrong (e.g., tank gets one-shot by the buster and blames the healer for “not healing them”, but didn’t even bother to pop a cooldown for it). And even then, never have I seen someone tell someone else to kill themselves or threaten to hurt them or their family. And I’ve pugged a lot of EX trials and just about every Savage floor this expansion save for Alphascape floors (I haven’t pugged them yet).

So the “toxicity” that occurs in most EX and Savage parties are from players failing to meet the standards the content requires: doing extremely low damage, dying to simple mistakes, not utilizing their entire kit, etc.. And, even then, there are plenty that scrape by with nothing said to them. Because the minute someone tells them that they’re doing something wrong, suddenly the party is full of “t o x i c e l i t i s t s” that have “ruined the game”.

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Originally Posted by Jett-Rinn

Last night I talked to my friend who left the game because of the toxicity in Dungeons and this is pretty much what she had to say.

"I watched all the videos on how to tank, I used all the current rotations, and made sure I watched videos on the fights before hand, then end result was people still telling me to kill myself or threatening to find me and my family and hurt them. I finally deciphered that "Bad" = you don't play the way I want, or I just really want to harass someone.

And honestly if you have to watch movies and learn sql formulas it isn't a game...it's a interactive spreadsheet with three frat bros who want to show their power over you. That's okay I can play FFXV and not have to pay to be threatened and degraded."

And since I have heard something similar to this more times than I can count...I'll just say nice job FFXIV has lost it's awesome community status to become League of Legends, and this is why we can't have nice things.

I know there is going to be several of us who plan to bring it up at Fanfest this year.....but if SE want's to emulate Blizzard to the point it wants it's terrible community nothing will be done.....where is GM Dave when you need him.

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http://i68.tinypic.com/i50l78.jpg

1 hotbar. One hotbar is all that is necessary to go 2.0-4.0 on a paladin. It's not optimal, but it's the basics and enough to handle any dungeon without getting chainkicked. It is one of the simplest jobs to play at a base level.

I genuinely don't know what to tell someone that can't handle this. There are bigger issues than the class if these skills are used so poorly people keep kicking or complaining.

It's "wrong" to not use Royal Authority, but that in itself isn't enough to get you kicked. The fact that you're a tank means you're given more leeway than any other class; people tend to avoid kicking them due to the replacement times.

You don't even need to watch videos. If you communicate with your party, you have boss strategies on tap. And people, as a rule, go out of their way to mollycoddle tanks that say they're doing their first run.

Hell, you even have the necessary tools and survivability here to do mass pulls all the way through -- healer permitting. So you'd make good time.


Consider the above, and "honestly if you have to watch movies and learn sql formulas it isn't a game" is absolute nonsense.

yet another level 70 done everything calling players lazy without an inkling what the post is about. Changing the argument and then using a dungeon or any dungeon just shows repetitive fallacy. Btw asking why to an answer you already know is extremely lazy. Learning curve is different for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Remus

What's with this forum trying to find ways to say people playing bad is fine?

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it's because they themselves are bad. and are trying to lay out pre-emptive cover for their badness.

Honestly, people need to stop taking this stuff so much to heart. If you know that you're capable or have the potential to be, it doesnt matter what some random says.

If you have a bad day or you cause a few wipes, thats ok! We all do it. Ignore and ask level headed players if they can provide constructive feedback to what youre doing.

People act high as can be here on the forums, though I suspect most of being petty towards strangers in the game. In fact, thats mostly what you see happen. People completely breaking down in chat after a couple of wipes. Dont be that guy.

Oh. This is back. That's great, I guess.

\_(``/)_/-

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Oh. This is back. That's great, I guess.

\_(``/)_/-

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https://media.giphy.com/media/WIg8P0VNpgH8Q/giphy.gif

Oh boy more posts about bads telling us why they aren't bads. Somebody get the camera!

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Originally Posted by Jimmymagic

yet another level 70 done everything calling players lazy without an inkling what the post is about. Changing the argument and then using a dungeon or any dungeon just shows repetitive fallacy. Btw asking why to an answer you already know is extremely lazy. Learning curve is different for everyone.

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Why did you bump this thread?