NINJA and ROGUE confirmed

Why is that you think that you're the only one reading the responses to your opinion? Why do you assume that it's only in response to the most recent post you've made? But you should lay off the hostilities, or you'll be reported.

Thief = Rogue = Thief = Rogue

They are the exact same thing. So no we will not get a thief. Yoshi simply went with the name rogue to designate they are socially accepted thieves (though since they come from a city of pirates this was probably unnecessary)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

Why is that you think that you're the only one reading the responses to your opinion? Why do you assume that it's only in response to the most recent post you've made? But you should lay off the hostilities, or you'll be reported.

---

If you want to address something I said in the past why don't you quote it and reply to it? I asked you what about what I said is stupid when I was just asking a honest question that is not being hostile.

If you had a comment in mind that you think is dumb or needs to be challenged why would you not reference it instead of going the route you are taking right now? Which isn't challenging my opinion but just out-right calling me names.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zarzak

Thief = Rogue = Thief = Rogue

They are the exact same thing. So no we will not get a thief. Yoshi simply went with the name rogue to designate they are socially accepted thieves (though since they come from a city of pirates this was probably unnecessary)

---

That interview can be interpreted any way to support any argument because it was:
1. vague.
2. had to be translated LIVE and things can be lost in translation.
3. Didn't make any logical sense because there are Pirates, prostitutes, and killers roaming around with permits to do things that make stealing look like child's play and would be socially acceptable in Limsa just by paying attention to the CS for the main storyline.
(this is my person take on the interview, if you think differently, good job)

I'll wait for more information to be release. :)

You asked a question. I gave an answer. You don't like it because of the word the image used, but I'll explain it.

You blocked Reyhart for reasons unknown to me.
He may think your opinion is stupid and is conflicted on whether to engage in a meaningless internet argument or let your opinion go unchallenged
I inserted an image macro to guess what Reynart's probable thought process

Does that make it clearer for you?

I don't personally believe Thief can bring anything that Ninja won't, the current evidence given by the people in thread as less than satisfactory. Also, why would Naoki say, "There will be no Thief >job<." It's not even 1 year since ARR launched so how can he say that if ARR lasts 8 years they won't bring out Thief eventually? Wouldn't that be lying? It'd be good for him to choose what he says carefully as to not tread over his own promises.

Side note: Japanese don't even seem to care there is no Thief job, a different world over on their forums.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LoLo

That interview can be interpreted any way to support any argument because it was:
1. vague.
2. had to be translated LIVE and things can be lost in translation.
3. Didn't make any logical sense because there are Pirates, prostitutes, and killers roaming around with permits to do things that make stealing look like child's play and would be socially acceptable in Limsa just by paying attention to the CS for the main storyline.
(this is my person take on the interview, if you think differently, good job)

I'll wait for more information to be release. :)

---

Your right but not completely (I agree partially.. See my last post but there's no way an entire paragraph was completely mistranslated Yoshi for some reason believes they need to be reputable members of society so he threw in some story to support that)

Not to mention rogues and thieves are the same damn thing anyway. dagger wielding, sneaky, picking pockets, uses poisons, etc, etc, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

You asked a question. I gave an answer. You don't like it because of the word the image used, but I'll explain it.

You blocked Reyhart for reasons unknown to me.
He may fight your opinion stupid and is conflicted on whether to engage in a meaningless internet argument or let your opinion go unchallenged
I inserted an image macro to guess what Reynart's probable thought process

Does that make it clearer for you?

---

I asked you to show me what you believe is stupid. You have never provided this information but instead have become abusive and harassing towards me. This is the last time I will respond to you because you are not trying to add to the conversation, instead you want to personally attack people.

On topic:
I hope they address if there will be a Thief job or not. Ninja seems to not play anything like a Thief job so there is currently no Thief job confirmed to be added or confirmed to never be added to the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LoLo

I hope they address if there will be a Thief job or not. Ninja seems to not play anything like a Thief job so there is currently no Thief job confirmed to be added or confirmed to never be added to the game.

---

They already address this in the live letter at E3, there will be no Thief job. Reason is it just doesnt fit into the world. Yoshi said it and if he was misquoted on the live letter he would have corrected the translator.

I also wanted a Thief Job cause once Rogue hits 30 they become useless cause job's are the most important thing in this game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

You blocked Reyhart for reasons unknown to me.
He may think your opinion is stupid and is conflicted on whether to engage in a meaningless internet argument or let your opinion go unchallenged
I inserted an image macro to guess what Reynart's probable thought process

---

He blocked me because we started a long debate in the lore forum (Link) where I was partially proven right now (The part where "Thief" will evolve into Ninja is blurred while we don't have confimation that Rogue = Thief), and the debate continues here.
And actually, I don't think his opinion is stupid. I only pointed wrong facts he used to prove him right (Like Ninja and Thief never using the same weapons, etc...)

As for this topic, it's just a case of different understanding about what was said on Rogue regarding Thief. I just think that it's pointless to explain how "Rogue are like Thieves but not named Thieves because of Lore" if they're already planned to be two different things.

There is no reason for them to confirm or deny if they are adding Thief job at all. They are adding a stealth class and that's what is needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

He blocked me because we started a long debate in the lore forum (Link) where I was partially proven right now (The part where "Thief" will evolve into Ninja is blurred while we don't have confimation that Rogue = Thief, and the debate continues here. And actually, I don't think his opinion is stupid. I only pointed wrong facts he used to prove him right (Like Ninja and Thief never uses the same weapon, etc...)

As for this topic, it's just a case of different understanding about what was said on Rogue regarding Thief. I just think that it's pointless to explain how "Rogue are like Thieves but not named Thieves because of Lore" if they're already planned to be two different things.

---

I figured this would be the case as well based on how worthless Thief was outside of the ability to Steal in single player games and some wild implementation in FFXI.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ncer-Class-Job

This is a good read on how Thief (or Rogue now) would have been implemented if Kitru had his way. It made logical sense and people on the same wavelength as Lolo were against Thief as a class, etc etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Legendlives

They already address this in the live letter at E3, there will be no Thief job. Reason is it just doesnt fit into the world. Yoshi said it and if he was misquoted on the live letter he would have corrected the translator.

I also wanted a Thief Job cause once Rogue hits 30 they become useless cause job's are the most important thing in this game.

---

Just a few posts up I already explained what I took from the E3 interview. If you think differently about that, I don't mind a single bit. However I personally do not see any confirmation as to if there will or won't be a Thief Job in the game.

If you want a Thief Job in this game, I say, don't cancel it out just yet until its hard confirmation as to it not being added. Look at how they changed their tune on same sex marriage. I believe more information confirming the issue will come out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

As for this topic, it's just a case of different understanding about what was said on Rogue regarding Thief. I just think that it's pointless to explain how "Rogue are like Thieves but not named Thieves because of Lore" if they're already planned to be two different things.

---

Its not pointless cause thats the case, Rogues are thief cause of lore. Can that change, sure, will it, to be honest i just dont think so. I think people are going to need to get use to the fact that this is what SE wants to do.

For the record, i want a Thief job, been dieing to play a duel wielding class for this game since release and it sucks that i'll be ninja's, but i'll live with it for now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LoLo

Just a few posts up I already explained what I took from the E3 interview. If you think differently about that, I don't mind a single bit. However I personally do not see any confirmation as to if there will or won't be a Thief Job in the game.

---

So what your saying is you just dont buy what the developer of the game is saying. That you know better then him? That he lied to us?

He said it, no matter what your opinion of it is, he SAID it. He words, they are fact now, not just an opinion, FACT.

As it stands right now, after he said it at E3, Rogues are thief's cause of Lore.

Does that suck, IMHO yes.

If possible someone who is willing to engage in actual conversation explain what the dex trait datamine information mean when it comes to additional classes possibly being branched off from Rogue?

Legend no I am saying:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LoLo

That interview can be interpreted any way to support any argument because it was:
1. vague.
2. had to be translated LIVE and things can be lost in translation.
3. Didn't make any logical sense because there are Pirates, prostitutes, and killers roaming around with permits to do things that make stealing look like child's play and would be socially acceptable in Limsa just by paying attention to the CS for the main storyline.
(this is my person take on the interview, if you think differently, good job)

I'll wait for more information to be release. :)

---

A good example of what makes me think that is the fact that there used to be a user on this forums that did live translations. After he did the live translations he would revised the translation because some information was missed while translating live. Its totally possible that things were missed or that a better word describing what Yoshi P said could have been used to better understand what he means.

Also from that same interview if we want to go word from word. It said that Rogues EVOLVED from Thieves. Not Rogues are Thieves.

Quote:

---

If possible someone who is willing to engage in actual conversation explain what the dex trait datamine information mean when it comes to additional classes possibly being branched off from Rogue?

---

I don't think it'll come off Rogue because it's low level traits (8/12/16?) as jobs don't start until 30. We just assumed that it'll pertain to Rogue because of all the other datamined skills that are run speed/jump landing/poisons. It could very easily be the traits for Musketeer but it's a little less likely given that we haven't found any other traits that would go to MSK.

If anything it could be like how ACN is now. All traits are INT+ but SCH is a healer with doesn't get anything from INT.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LoLo

It said that Rogues EVOLVED from Thieves. Not Rogues are Thieves.

---

Seeing as we're arguing semantics now, you do realize that the bolded part suggests rogues are better than thieves as that's how evolution works. Why would a Job be worse than the class it's based on? Just saying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilraen

Seeing as we're arguing semantics now, you do realize that the bolded part suggests rogues are better than thieves as that's how evolution works. Why would a Job be worse than the class it's based on? Just saying.

---

What I got from it was that the abilities rogues have derive from days when they were thieves/bandits. While they stopped committing crimes, they still use their skills in the benefit of the guild/nation they represent, as such the Rogue. Its always possible that Thief can be a job in the future where they go back to the days of fighting dirty or some secret techniques that were forgotten over the years when they transitioned to Rogue. Don't know, the lore team seems pretty clever at fitting anything in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilraen

Seeing as we're arguing semantics now, you do realize that the bolded part suggests rogues are better than thieves as that's how evolution works. Why would a Job be worse than the class it's based on? Just saying.

---

Actually no, Archers used to be Bards but now that type of combat is pretty much gone until you find a old Bard who decides to teach you the way of the Bard. PUGs used to know the way of the Monks. You can say the same about all of the current jobs. No where is it said that a Thief is worse than a Rogue lol. But I think at this point telling you this is pointless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LoLo

Actually no, Archers used to be Bards but now that type of combat is pretty much gone until you find a old Bard who decides to teach you the way of the Bard. PUGs used to know the way of the Monks. You can say the same about all of the current jobs. No where is it said that a Thief is worse than a Rogue lol. But I think at this point telling you this is pointless.

---

Pugilists didn't know the way of the monks. If anything can be established about pugilists, it's that they are prize fist-fighters. Monks are an order of warriors out of Ala Mihgo. There's no implication of "lost art" there. I haven't gotten far enough in BRD to say the same thing, but by and large, the "lost art" premise is hardly used on many of the jobs.

Furthermore, I don't know what you're getting at that "Thief is/isn't better than Rogue". All Yoshida said was that various thieves came together and for whatever reason decided to abandon the name and form a Rogue's Guild. Again, all that establishes is that very point. There's nothing that says Thief won't happen as a job, and there's nothing that says it will. You're making mountains out of molehills that you haven't even seen yet. Honestly, I would wait until a month or so before 2.4 is out and we have more information to really congratulate/condemn Rogue and Ninja.

Monk is a lost Art because the Monk that teaches you is one of the few remaining Monks.

Ala Mhigo's Monk temple was burned down by Theodoric, killing trainees, devotees, elders, and even homeless. Very few survived.

The same for BRD in being a lost art not normally practiced.

I said Thief is not worse than Rogue because the person I quoted said that Thief is a downgrade to Rogue. Please read the whole conversation before replying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LoLo

Monk is a lost Art because the Monk that teaches you is one of the few remaining Monks...

---

But they aren't a "lost art" of the Pugilists as you posted earlier. The Pugilists guild in Ul'dah have next to nothing in common with the Monks of Ala Mihgo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LoLo

I said Thief is not worse than Rogue because the person I quoted said that Thief is a downgrade to Rogue. Please read the whole conversation before replying.

---

That person's quote was a direct response to your arguing of relatively unimportant semantic differences(incidentally, you misinterpreted his point, by the way). I guess respect points for consistency, but really, that bullish tone of yours still isn't going to be doing you any favors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malakhim

But they aren't a "lost art" of the Pugilists as you posted earlier. The Pugilists guild in Ul'dah have next to nothing in common with the Monks of Ala Mihgo.



That person's quote was a direct response to your arguing of relatively unimportant semantic differences(incidentally, you misinterpreted his point, by the way). I guess respect points for consistency, but really, that bullish tone of yours still isn't going to be doing you any favors.

---

I said "Monk is a lost art". I'm pretty sure they do have much in common because how else did you get the start of the Monk quests. Why would Professor Erik commission a Pug to be his body guard when before his last body guard was Monk if Pug and much didn't have much in common. It's clear that he wants to use the pugs in Uldah to help him on his research because they are linked with Monk in some shape or form.

I replied to the quote if you can't understand that someone brings up a thought, and I reply to it doesn't mean that I believe Thief is worse or better than Rogue. But the way that classes and jobs work, jobs are better than classes.

Using the word evolved instead of saying that Thief and Rogue are one and the same is worth considering. Maybe you do not believe that to be. But as of this moment it is still unclear as to if there are no plans for a Thief Job in this game. Why are you becoming angry at me for bringing up actual information instead of assumptions that people have been throwing around in here?

Because you're not actually bringing up proof is why and using faulty arguments to make a point that nobody is inherently disagreeing with you on. In addition to being the person bringing made up information into the thread.

Lore-wise, Professor Eric commissioned a Pugilist because the Platinum Mirage(I.E. the establishment that acts as the patron/headquarters of the Pugilists Guild) deals in giving groups or individuals hired muscle for a fee. If the Gladiator's Guild was in the business of selling muscle/body guards, the professor could have easily gone there instead. Professor Eric doesn't give three iotas of a crap about the Monk's chakras opening or the Pugilists of Ul'Dah and what have you, and doesn't even conclude that his two assistants(you and the monk) could be useful in leading him to potential sites until a quest or two into the story.

If you want to get down to the nitty gritty, yes, it serves as the lead to take you from Pugilist to Monk in the strict, technical sense as created by the devs, but from a lore perspective, neither are really related.

At this point I'm not even sure what your argument even is. Are you unhappy that Yoshida made a statement that there is no Thieves Guild in the game for the reasons he established? I don't really know what else to say other than "get used to it". That's just how it is. Could THF happen? Assuming the skill set for Rogue doesn't already encompass those we think of as THF abilities/traits, then maybe, maybe not. We don't have enough information either way. But you seem hell bent on saying "I want MY thing!" to that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LoLo

Why would Professor Erik commission a Pug to be his body guard when before his last body guard was Monk if Pug and much didn't have much in common. It's clear that he wants to use the pugs in Uldah to help him on his research because they are linked with Monk in some shape or form.

---

The professor don't beliefe in Monk power.
He visit often the casino and the Pugilist guild is part of the casino. The guild sent you to the professor as his bodyguard because he want to do researchs in a dangerous area and his dead would cost the casino some gil.

Yet who sends you to be Professor Eric's body guard? Gagaruna. Who is Gargaruna? The guide master of the Pugilist guide.

This is what Gargaruna saids to you when discussing the situation with Professor Eric.

Quote:

---

#6 Gagaruna
The point is the man must needs be guarded. To that end, I sent a monk of Ala Mhigo to see to his safety, but it turns out the bloody oaf has no work ethic about him─just like an Ala Mhigan.

---

If Monk isn't related... how did the guide master send a monk of Ala Mhigo? Gararuna most likey has a connection with Ala Mhigan and might even be one of the people who made it out of Ala Mhigo and traveled to Uldah. In the 1.0 quest many people who survived the attack in Ala Mhigo made Uldah home. One of those very people was Minfilia and her Dad.

During the quest the professor reads the aether readings and uses the Monk to find other areas with a high level of aether.


No, I am not unhappy that there is no Thief Guide. Why? Because I want to play a Thief Job, not a Thief class. Surprisingly, I am not the only one who feels this way.

Just to be clear, I am not even mad. I am discussing the information that we currently have about Rogue class and Ninja by saying that it is still a chance that Thief can branch off of Rogue. People seem to hate that idea and I wonder why. It doesn't cheapen the Ninja Job in any way shape or form.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

The professor don't beliefe in Monk power.

---

I didn't say he practices Monk, he uses the Monk to find high aether areas because he knows that a Monk is sensitive to large amount of it. His research involves using aetherial readings.

Quote:

---

#13 Erik
Know that my primary endeavor is to reconstruct the military histories of old through the aetherial analysis of ancient battlegrounds.

---

He knows the Monk in the quest actively seeks areas like that out.

Discussing possible jobs that branch off of the Rogue class is actually very much on topic and is not griefing. A Thief job seems to fit pretty well if it branched off from Rogue.

If you do not want to discuss possible jobs then you don't need to address posts that are related to it. No need to call names and become angry.

You said that no one cares if I'm mad, however did you forget that you asked if I am unhappy? All I did was answer your question.

When I said there is no confirmation that Thief = Rogue, I was told that in the E3 interview Yoshi P said that. I then said that the actual quote is that "Rogue evolved from Thieves" not "Rogue is Thief." They did not provide actual facts so I replied with the facts.

I wonder how Ninjustu will be. Wonder if it'll have a variety of status effects like target defense down 5%, self-strength up by 5% or something. Maybe it'll be like a melee Bard of sorts? 2.4 really can't come soon enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LoLo

I didn't say he practices Monk, he uses the Monk to find high aether areas because he knows that a Monk is sensitive to large amount of it. His research involves using aetherial readings.

---

No
He had the theory that batlegrounds influence the aether. He studied history battlegrounds from books, send you and the other guy to the places to put a device there, let the device do it's work and then bring it back. This is all want he wanted you to do.
The professor don't used the monk to find the places, the monk used the professor to find the places.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

I wonder how Ninjustu will be. Wonder if it'll have a variety of status effects like target defense down 5%, self-strength up by 5% or something. Maybe it'll be like a melee Bard of sorts? 2.4 really can't come soon enough.

---

outside of combat it's most likely going to have scout duties, in dungeons maybe they can scout ahead to disarm traps or trigger mobs and run away..etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

No
He had the theory that batlegrounds influence the aether. He studied history battlegrounds from books, send you and the other guy to the places to put a device there, let the device do it's work and then bring it back. This is all want he wanted you to do.
The professor don't used the monk to find the places, the monk used the professor to find the places.

---

I will reply this last time about anything related to Monk...... because I don't want to get off topic. I was only using Monk as a example of a lost art that is in the game to explain how Thief could turn as a job option for Rogue. Not debate the Monk job quests.

In reply to your post:
Its clear that the professor was targeting battle fields because he knew there was a large amount of aether there to research. Monks can sense and use aether and I would be hard press to believe the professor is ignorant of that. Yes, he talked down about the monk and said he doesn't believe in the teachings but thats like me saying I dont believe in meditation, but I am aware that yoga exists and uses meditation.

Quoted from the game:

Quote:

---

#10 Widargelt
I feigned understanding. He asked much of me. Of the monkhood and the Fist. He asked of the seventh chakra.
#11 Widargelt
My answers excited him. He said they would advance his studies. I too learned from him. I am nearer the seventh chakra now.

---

They used each other to get what they wanted. Also the Professor is a Ala Mhigan and is aware of the monkhood.

btw battle grounds do not influence the aether. Battlegrounds just have a large amount of aether because a lot of people died there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dano

outside of combat it's most likely going to have scout duties, in dungeons maybe they can scout ahead to disarm traps or trigger mobs and run away..etc.

---

I think that might be slightly imbalanced because that would make them mandatory for some dungeons? Unless they traps are not that severe (do like 1500 damage if taken alone, 250 if taken with all 4)? Probably thinking too high, going disappoint myself with these wild dreams :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

I think that might be slightly imbalanced because that would make them mandatory for some dungeons? Unless they traps are not that severe (do like 1500 damage if taken alone, 250 if taken with all 4)? Probably thinking too high, going disappoint myself with these wild dreams :(

---

i believe reading yoshi said they wanted to have a scout role in the party, whether that's referring to combat or non-combat i'm not certain. But i would seriously love it if it's non combat, this game need variety in dungeon raids.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LoLo

Actually no, Archers used to be Bards but now that type of combat is pretty much gone until you find a old Bard who decides to teach you the way of the Bard.

---

That's. . .not how the game describes it at all. A subset of Archers, experiencing the horrors of war, turned to song to ease their turmoil and strengthen their allies. After the war, some of them became wandering minstrels, eventually stripping their songs of all their truth and power. The Moogles, fearing the loss of the true power of song among mankind, labored to save the Souls of the Bards to be entrusted to those they deemed worthy.

But, then, I don't know why I'm telling you this, since you have me blocked for some reason. . .

The best way to win an argument !
Block everybody that says otherwise :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dano

i believe reading yoshi said they wanted to have a scout role in the party, whether that's referring to combat or non-combat i'm not certain. But i would seriously love it if it's non combat, this game need variety in dungeon raids.

---

I think scouting when it comes to PVP because as of right now I don't see the purpose of scouting in Duty Finder Dungeons. But I could be wrong.

I wonder if ninja will need to have ninja tools to cast spells like they did in 11.

Thief can be a job. But there's no reason to put it alongside Ninja right now. Naoki wanted a scout type in-game, he put it. Now it's on to other projects, the gun class, new tank and new healer. Then after we've brought out those types, he can go about backtracking to other iconic jobs.

I have a mild feeling we'll see either Sage / Devout / Green Mage (that'd be cool) as a new healer. Samurai / Dark Knight (least likely) / Viking as the new tank. Gun class. Then probably Red Mage, then possibly look at maybe bringing in Thief. Or he could just leave Rogue as FFXIV's thief and that'll be the end of it.

At this point, I kind of see Thief being a Tank.

Certainly doesn't work if your idea of Thief is the dark, brooding serious type, who never get seen, let alone caught, but the center of attention, always up to mischief style thieves fit the bill. They always get caught, but still get away with it. Just build several Steal moves around Tanking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDaemon

Because Naruto invented hand symbols...oh wait!

---

Did I say it did?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

Did I say it did?

---

Did you have to say it explicitly for your "Narutard" jab to have better meaning?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

At this point, I kind of see Thief being a Tank.

Certainly doesn't work if your idea of Thief is the dark, brooding serious type, who never get seen, let alone caught, but the center of attention, always up to mischief style thieves fit the bill. They always get caught, but still get away with it. Just build several Steal moves around Tanking.

---

That's Ninja! The following description sounds like DN Angel type thief.