I just wanted to point out a double standard...

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

how in the world did they get to Turn 8 without being able to maintain that?

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Because RNG and group strategy can have big impact on how often/not often you lose GL3. Turn 8 is pretty much a dummy fight that you should never lose GL3 unless you're dead but turn 6 briar method combined with RNG or turn 7 if you repeatedly get Shriek, again RNG.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

I get that you won't always be able to switch fists during a fight. But it is possible to do so without a DPS loss in many cases.

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And that's exactly what I was telling you. There are several cases where you can switch stances without a DPS loss. A Snap Punch under Fist of Earth is a DPS loss. Whether it's big or small is another unrelated argument.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

And as I've stated repeatedly, from my perspective I think it's possible to do so without parsers, and from that standpoint alone I don't think they are necessary.

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And I will just agree that we disagree that it's possible to track what other people are doing when the fights requires a lot of concentration on yourself and the boss. For fights that it doesn't require that much concentration? Well you already overgear them.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

The way FFXIV is designed means that almost no encounter will ever need the maximum possible DPS to beat.

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Second Coil is not a moot point as you have no idea how tight the DPS check can be if you haven't seen it. Imagine a boss with adds estimated roughly double the HP of Twintania, no echo and you have to down it in the same 13 minutes but wait you haven't killed Twin.

The irony of it all is, people still use parsers. They can't be tracked. The only way to be punished is if you use them and speak out in game with numbers and harass someone with it.

If a player has far lower DPS than they should, they are doing something wrong. If they are doing something (probably many things) wrong, these things can be noticed by observing said player.

There are, however, multiple DPS players aside from the fact that any fight worth a damn requires a high level of concentration on oneself and the enemy/encounter mechanics. Furthermore paying attention to each and every DPS player's actions is unreasonable, and if not impossible, will at least reduce your performance.

That said, if somebody in the party is secretly using a parser, and isn't abrasive about it in party - doesn't even share any of his insight related to the parser, they will immediately see any patterns of specific DPS players underperforming. Knowing who to look out for, they can then observe that single player, and undoubtedly notice their mistakes and then proceed to point this out to them. If they're particularly nice, they will do it constructively. No mention of parsers or numbers. No offense. Mission accomplished(?). However, it was a parser in the first place that allowed for this insight.

Have you or someone you know been called out on underperforming without the mention of numbers? There's a good chance the person did indeed have a parser, but was careful in how they used that information.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Have you or someone you know been called out on underperforming without the mention of numbers? There's a good chance the person did indeed have a parser, but was careful in how they used that information.

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Exactly. And the people who said that the community would harass the one with low DPS with a parser already would be harassing people. Instead of saying: "Your dps is x, you should be doing y", it's going to be: "Your DPS is too low!!". The latter which I have yet to see.

People who have no knowledge about parser except for the fact that it can track your DPS have got to get over their baseless fear.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Of course there are other moments, but those, as you pointed out, tend to be when errors happen and people are trying to repair a bad situation by pushing hard.

Coil 2 however requires this as a course of action where any mistake turns into a wipe with no possibility of fixing the error, and even in cases of no errors your damage may easily be too low to beat the enrage.

I'm sure you can appreciate how different the situations are.

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You're just repeating what I said:

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

The bar is set higher to begin with, definitely. But extenuating circumstances can push that bar up in non-coil content as well.

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The end result is the same: pushing DPS to the limit. My point was that just because I haven't done Second Coil doesn't mean I haven't ever had to push DPS or wipe.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

T8 would like to have words with you. T8 absolutely requires maximum possible DPS to beat the enrage. If you're not winning because of 100 combined group DPS it can be EXTREMELY difficult to pinpoint who could be pushing 20-30 more or even if one person was 70 lower than normal and it was mostly on them to improve.

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And again:

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

The way FFXIV is designed means that almost no encounter

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But yeah, I know what an exception is thank you. A massive change like the implementation of parsers shouldn't be weighted by one fight though. Especially when it will affect all DoW/DoM content. I can see especially vicious behavior occurring in low-level dungeons where people are:
1) learning
2) don't care about optimal rotations because it's superfluous.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Please stop assuming all content is the same. Not all content has echo, and players haven't out geared all that content either. There is absolutely legitimately difficult content where this level of min maxing is 100% required. You're insistence that such content doesn't exist will not magically make the second coil go away.

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Don't even know where you get that I think all content has echo. Are fights tightly tuned? Sure. Are they so tuned that a parser is NEEDED? No. Is it worth introducing parsers for the sole purpose of Coil when it will affect far more than just Coil? No. Do people seem to be clearing Coil fine without an official parser? Yes.

I'm not saying everyone is overgeared, but the way the game is structured means that people will usually be over the ilvl requirements for the fight. I'm not saying there isn't difficult content (though I typically find the difficulty of this game to be overexaggerated but that is a different discussion), but I don't think that content requires min/maxing and neither does Yoshi-P:

"Nova Crystallis: What did you think when the Second Coil of Bahamut was cleared in three weeks?

Yoshida: Amazing. We watch and track the progress the whole time, and we saw that out of the whole world three different groups were up there at the top with everyone else floundering on the first levels. Blue Garter got it first, but the others were right after – it was very close. When designing the Binding Coil, we expected that at the third Turn [Turn 8], players would need at least the Soldiery gear to progress. We designed it with a certain DPS requirement in mind, but when those three groups came in and were over that DPS requirement already, that blew us away as we didn’t expect them to get that far. If you look back and think, they were better than the requirement when they got got there..."

If you're not decked out in full soldiery/high allagan then you're not even meeting the minimum requirement and thus yeah, min/maxing will be required. But that's because you're actively pushing the limits. You're going 110%. That is not required. That is not a good reason to introduce a parser.

You say I'm ignoring content? I think you have tunnel vision. Coil is not all people do. Min/maxing is your preference. It is not a requirement. A parser would have consequences that should be considered from all aspects, not just what the raiding crowd desires because it will affect more than just Coil.

It's not hard to tell when somebody in your party is parsing, but is all hush hush about it either. You just need to know what to look for.

Very often at the end of soldiery runs or any kind of 4 man dungeon I'll receive much more commendations than I would expect as a dps (it typically goes to the tank that performs well or the healer) or I'll have someone compliment me in some implicit way, without any quantitative data. Like an affirmative nod that is grounded in evidence, but cannot be spoken publicly.

People always talk about players who parse being abusive or mean. That's because those are the only times they know a person is parsing. The players who parse regularly, and say nothing that explicitly reveals this will go completely unnoticed. Players who provide valuable constructive advice/criticism without mentioning specific numbers, or who are able to quickly find the source of the party's problem will often be celebrated for doing so seemingly without parsing, even though they likely were.

People see what they want to see. Players who are anti-parsers are typically players who know, in the back of their mind at least, that they do not perform as well as they are required by the content they wish to participate in and are afraid of being called out.

EDIT:

I should further add that in the case of lower level dungeons - where players are leveling up and learning - the process is sorely lacking in valuable DPS walls. The dungeons are far too easy. The class quests utterly useless. Teaching a player who is leveling up a DPS class/job how to properly play that class/job should be the focus of the class/job quests. Without hitting a certain mark, they should be unable to progress. The mark doesn't have to be set very high - something that can easily be reached with the right rotation but is rather difficult without.

it's all because these little children get upset when it's pointed out they aren't helping the group. they are actually hurting it. yoshi is more worried about the feelings of that one child than he is of the feelings of the other 7 people in the raid that are failing due to that poor dps.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

You say I'm ignoring content? I think you have tunnel vision. Coil is not all people do. Min/maxing is your preference. It is not a requirement. A parser would have consequences that should be considered from all aspects, not just what the raiding crowd desires because it will affect more than just Coil.

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What evidence do you possess that gives your argument credibility ? On what basis can you officially say that introducing a parser will have such dire consequences ?

Just so you know, before you answer, generalization and anecdotal evidence are not valid arguments for obvious reasons.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

People see what they want to see. Players who are anti-parsers are typically players who know, in the back of their mind at least, that they do not perform as well as they are required by the content they wish to participate in and are afraid of being called out.

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Exactly. The image projected by those who have such a firm stance is one of self-defense due to being guilty of underperforming and trying to hide behind the veil of people's inability to know.

In your zeal to dissect each individual sentence (like that proves anything anyone lol) you failed to ascertain the primary point of my argument. I'll sum it up in my response to this paragraph.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Don't even know where you get that I think all content has echo. Are fights tightly tuned? Sure. Are they so tuned that a parser is NEEDED? No. Is it worth introducing parsers for the sole purpose of Coil when it will affect far more than just Coil? No. Do people seem to be clearing Coil fine without an official parser? Yes

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I can put it into so many words, but the simple fact is this paragraph right here shows that you do not understand what we are trying to say. You're just wrong. There are indeed fights tuned that hard. Yes, it's worth introducing something players can use to determine their performance because that does have more uses than just the second coil. No, most people do not clear the later turns of coil without parsers. I'm not aware of even a single group that does. I'm sure some exist, but it is most definitely not the majority.

You don't know what you're talking about, but you're doing a great job of trying to act like it. Anyone who does understand what we are saying would see through you due to that paragraph alone.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

You say I'm ignoring content? I think you have tunnel vision. Coil is not all people do. Min/maxing is your preference. It is not a requirement. A parser would have consequences that should be considered from all aspects, not just what the raiding crowd desires because it will affect more than just Coil.

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No sir. You have tunnel vision. You think we are ignoring other content with only the new coil in mind. The new coil is nothing more than the best example of how this type of content could be used. It is in no way the only place it would be useful. New players learning their class for the first time could find it very valuable even in iLv 50 gear. You aren't for a single second putting someone else's shoes on to see how they fit. You, are guilty of the crime of not considering this from all aspects. You only consider it from yours, and you blame use for that crime simply because the second coil is a great example and the only reason we keep using it as an example is because you continue to push your arguments into more extreme rhetoric when you say thinks like "The way FFXIV is designed means that almost no encounter will ever need the maximum possible DPS to beat." So naturally we have to supply you with an example to show why you're wrong and that inevitably brings us to the coil as a prime example. You fail to consider other places this would be useful when you push the rhetoric into such an extreme angle. You see only the abuse that it could cause despite the fact that keeping players in the dark about how well they perform clearly isn't working either. The game gives ZERO feedback to DPS about how well they perform. None what-so-ever. Do you really thing that's an adequate system? Many of us don't and think the game needs to take a step further. Is the answer to that a in fight DPS meter? In my opinion no, but to do absolutely NOTHING at all to try and fix an obvious problem the game has is also a poor answer. While you may be paralyzed by fear that some people could abuse it I would rather take a glass half full approach and find a way to design it so that it can benefit as many people as possible and minimize abuse. For that we are not terrible people. We are innovators who believe there MUST be a better way.

How many people do you think told Thomas Edison to stop making the light bulb because candles were good enough?

I'm just going to clarify the trend of this thread and how I feel about it but first:

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

In your zeal to dissect each individual sentence

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??????????????????
Where did this happen?
Moving on...

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

everything else

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The game does give feedback to DPS. Did you kill the adds before they wiped the party? Did you kill the boss before enrage? This thread started because someone thought there was a double standard in performance visibility, but there's nothing invisible about mobs/bosses not dying fast enough.

Then it became a matter of, "well how can we tell who is doing the low DPS?" To which I responded: just observe how they play. There are eight people in your party. That's potentially eight pair of eyes to catch sub-par playing. In 4-man content it's even easier to observe other players and give feedback without the assistance of a parser.

Then it became "but you can't observe if someone is min/maxing based on observation alone" To which I said: That may be true, but min/maxing isn't required in any part of this game not even T8. Which Yoshi-P has said himself. The people who cleared it were going above and beyond what he believed was possible and what the fight was tuned for and thus is an unrealistic standard to hold to everyone else to and a poor defense for putting parsers in the game when they are currently unneeded.

Now it's become: "You haven't even gotten to the Second Coil so you don't know what you're talking about." And I'm just gonna go: :rolleyes:

...and leave this conversation.*

*Parsers won't be implemented now or in the near-future and that's pretty much all I need to be satisfied.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

??????????????????
Where did this happen?
Moving on...

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Really? http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2204282

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

To which I said: That may be true, but min/maxing isn't required in any part of this game not even T8. Which Yoshi-P has said himself. The people who cleared it were going above and beyond what he believed was possible and what the fight was tuned for and thus is an unrealistic standard to hold to everyone else to and a poor defense for putting parsers in the game when they are currently unneeded.

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I don't care if Yoshi said butteflies fly out of his behind. T8/9 are absolutely that tough. You are flat out wrong since there IS content in the game that is that hard. If his intentions were as you said then he is most definitely NOT making that kind of game when it comes to end game content. Besides he has also said on numerous occasions that there is tough content in the game designed for those types of players. He was even saying this before 2.0 launched in reference to the first coil. So you need to find some way to come to terms with the fact that this is a casual game that most definitely has some non-casual end game components.

Also, the quote you so nicely paraphrased was not given and credence to the idea that parser were unnecessary at all. The actual quote was this.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/162520

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Exceeding our expectations by leaps and bounds, we were astounded to find the final turn of the Second Coil of Bahamut has been cleared by an intrepid group of players hailing from the Order of the Blue Garter! Congratulations─your skill and commitment is an inspiration to adventurers everywhere. We look forward to seeing more players rise to the challenge of the Second Coil and triumph against the greatest dangers in the realm.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

The people who cleared it were going above and beyond what he believed was possible

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No, He commended them and their commitment and said they were an inspiration to others. They did not say it was above and beyond what they believed was possible. At all.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

and what the fight was tuned for and thus is an unrealistic standard to hold to everyone else to and a poor defense for putting parsers in the game when they are currently unneeded.

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This part was entirely made up by you.

He did NOT say for even a second that there was or was not any unrealistic standard and it was in no way related to parsers at all. You're doing some serious mental gymnastics to stretch his quote to mean things it literally did not even talk about.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

*Parsers won't be implemented now or in the near-future and that's pretty much all I need to be satisfied.

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I even said earlier that I don't think a parser was the right solution to this. It's ok though. Put it in small text like it won't be noticed or something and keep acting like I didn't already agree on that point.

It comes down to this. You think nothing at all should be done in any way shape or form to assist players in improving their skills. You think the only solution is to "watch them" while you're in the middle of a raid. I'm glad you think your so elite that you can do your own rotations and focus on other people at the same time, but not everyone is and therefore that's a terrible solution or the lack of any solution at all. Something needs to be done. In the current environment the difficult battles promote hostility between players. I simply wish the game to feature some manner in which those players could practice before coming into raid scenarios. This would improve player skill and confidence and help to reduce the vitriolic encounters this exact thread was created to discuss. If you can't see the value in that then please by all means continue living your life with so much skill you can watch and deal with everyone else during a fight. The rest of us who have difficulty multitasking would like something better to train on. You need to try and understand these people better because right now you're the elitist saying "god it's easy just watch their rotations during battle" like it's an easy thing to do. It's not.