Instanced Raids Unveiled!

They can't have a level cap on the rank 25 dungeon because it gives xp. People will soon lvl past the cap say 30 and then can't access that dungeon again, till they have another class in that level range.

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Originally Posted by 17Puffins

They can't have a level cap on the rank 25 dungeon because it gives xp. People will soon lvl past the cap say 30 and then can't access that dungeon again, till they have another class in that level range.

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Excellent point puff! Go vote!

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

This is in regards to solely the rank 50 dungeon (mostly because I'm still confused about having a rank 25/30 dungeon with no level cap).

I understand the idea of having a minimum entry requirement regarding the number of players attending. But isn't making that number at precisely the maximum number of possible players in a party extremely limiting? For example, saying you can't enter Limbus without 18, or Salvage without 12, but having those also be the maximum number of entrants?

If you let parties of 6 enter, even if the dungeon is too difficult, at least those 6 players can give it a shot with the friends available. Make some progress, hone their skills on the early part of the dungeon until time runs out, acquire some SP/rewards, etc. My concern is having those 6 available and then being required to randomly shout for an additional 2 (if those could even be found). Currently in FFXIV, there isn't a mechanism to do that in any way that isn't utterly painful. And I can't imagine anything more frustrating than having 7 members ready to go and simply not being able to find an 8th, in a game that literally has zero other content for rank 50s.

So, am I missing something here? I think someone brought this up before, but a linkshell with something like 15 available players will only service 8, while the remaining 7 are out of luck (or have to find the aforementioned random dude). This obviously gets more difficult as the remainder of available players deviates from multiples of 8.

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This. I think it's a big mistake to make the requirement to enter a full party. First off one of my favorite things to do is low man stuff in FF. That's out of the window. Second, people are going to get left behind a lot. Like quoted above, a ls of 15, only 8 can go. One of my favorite things about XI was that you could do stuff in a huge alliance where rarely people get left behind (or you could swap them in if you did), or low man it. Not shaping up to be the same story here in XIV.

A minimum requirement of 4-6, with the difficulty being pretty extreme would be a good balance here. Sure you can enter with a lower number but good luck completing it. This min/max 8 crap is going to suck.

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Originally Posted by 17Puffins

They can't have a level cap on the rank 25 dungeon because it gives xp. People will soon lvl past the cap say 30 and then can't access that dungeon again, till they have another class in that level range.

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That's not how it works. If you are at level 31+, once you enter the instance, you will be delevel-synced to level 30.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Excellent point puff! Go vote!

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I thought you said you knew how this worked? O.o

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Originally Posted by CrstyCaptin

This. I think it's a big mistake to make the requirement to enter a full party. First off one of my favorite things to do is low man stuff in FF. That's out of the window. Second, people are going to get left behind a lot. Like quoted above, a ls of 15, only 8 can go. One of my favorite things about XI was that you could do stuff in a huge alliance where rarely people get left behind (or you could swap them in if you did), or low man it. Not shaping up to be the same story here in XIV.

A minimum requirement of 4-6, with the difficulty being pretty extreme would be a good balance here. Sure you can enter with a lower number but good luck completing it. This min/max 8 crap is going to suck.

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Ya, that and I'm extremely skeptical of anyone claiming that this content will only be possible to complete with the maximum number of possible entrants. It's never happened in FFXI or FFXIV, to date. That means that either good players in groups of 8 smash the dungeon, or bad players in groups of 8 won't have a chance. We'll see, I suppose!

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Bay, this doesn't make any sense. You can't have a difficult raid if you can take classes in that are 20 levels over the intended design of the area. It can't work. If the one word is difficult, then by default it isn't even a rank 30 dungeon. It's a rank 50 dungeon you would be crazy to take R30s into.

Otherwise, the one word is not difficult.

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I'm actually starting to think it might just be that. Silent Arbor is surrounded by rank 55-59 raptors that would one shot any rank 30. I discovered the entrance to this dungeon months ago and had to Quickstride my 50 ARC out of there before they killed me. But I suppose they could adjust the mobs in the area.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

That's not how it works. If you are at level 31+, once you enter the instance, you will be delevel-synced to level 30.


I thought you said you knew how this worked? O.o

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I thought his point was, if the dungeon offers SP and you cap it, then you won't gain SP after being capped.

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Originally Posted by Sigmakan

I understand that concern. But elitist shells are going to be elitist shells regardless. Forcing them to take 8 wont solve that to be honest. All it does is hurt LSs who have seen LS numbers dwindle and have trouble summoning 8 members reliably.

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I'm more concerned about the number of people that will be excluded from the content due to the low party size limit. Currently when my LS runs NMs we can have anywhere from 8 to 24 people come for the event. If 14 turn up we do two groups of 7. With these raids and the 8 player requirement you've then got six people sitting picking their noses while the other 8 have fun.

Of course you can "exploit" that requirement by bringing along filler mules which I'm sure will happen and I'd have no problem doing if it gets me to play the game rather than sit doing nothing.

Removing the capability to lowman the 8man dungeon means you need to keep enough active members in your shell to always have 8 on when you want to go. What's the problem with that, you ask? It means more often than not more than 8 people will be on and wanting to go and you'll have to make people sit out. Telling people to sit on the bench wasn't fun in WoW and it won't be fun in FF14.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

So, am I missing something here? I think someone brought this up before, but a linkshell with something like 15 available players will only service 8, while the remaining 7 are out of luck (or have to find the aforementioned random dude).

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Twas lil' ol' me. Glad that caught a few people's attention. Another issue involved with this is loot distribution (and the fail system we have). Say you have 6 people and have to pick up 2 random players. That's 2 people that may ignore any agreements and lootwhore/steal items. They may end up deciding that they just want to wipe you for the fun of watching you fail. There's a lot of people that get a kick out of doing stuff like this.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

I'm more concerned about the number of people that will be excluded from the content due to the low party size limit. Currently when my LS runs NMs we can have anywhere from 8 to 24 people come for the event. If 14 turn up we do two groups of 7. With these raids and the 8 player requirement you've then got six people sitting picking their noses while the other 8 have fun.

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I share your exact concerns. What are the chances of having exactly 8 people show up for "dungeon-night"? Very low. You'll most likely have more or less. Quite an odd game design decision to be honest.

Also, if its as difficult as they claim, then picking up Random Joe will most likely be detrimental to the completion of the dungeon.

One more point, if the gear is as awesome and rare as SE claims then most of the time LSs will want some of loot system (formal or informal). Even more reason to not invite Random Joe.

There are so many reasons to NOT have a minimum party size, yet none for having a minimum req.(well, peregines concern about elitism, I'll agree to disagree on that point).

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

I thought his point was, if the dungeon offers SP and you cap it, then you won't gain SP after being capped.

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Originally Posted by 17Puffins

They can't have a level cap on the rank 25 dungeon because it gives xp. People will soon lvl past the cap say 30 and then can't access that dungeon again, till they have another class in that level range.

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Doesn't seem that way to me.

Besides, who says you can't still earn SP even if you're delevel-synced?

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

That's not how it works. If you are at level 31+, once you enter the instance, you will be delevel-synced to level 30.


I thought you said you knew how this worked? O.o

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It's a normal political move... encourage someone to vote who misunderstands the issue in a manner that works in your favor.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

Ya, that and I'm extremely skeptical of anyone claiming that this content will only be possible to complete with the maximum number of possible entrants. It's never happened in FFXI or FFXIV, to date. That means that either good players in groups of 8 smash the dungeon, or bad players in groups of 8 won't have a chance. We'll see, I suppose!

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You need to simultaneously trigger 8 pressure plates to open a door...
Cheap, but I've seen it done elsewhere to prevent low-manning.

I do think making the minimum/maximum number of entrants the same is a mistake ( and hope that more than 4 can enter the lower-level dungeon)

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Doesn't seem that way to me.

Besides, who says you can't still earn SP even if you're delevel-synced?

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If you are capped, by definition you can't go higher. I assume it would work the same as being capped at 50.

So I'm a bit confused by the outrage over there being no level cap on the mid-level dungeon. What exactly about that is bad? I mean if you want the challenge and want to have fun with it, go in as a properly ranked class. If not then... so what? If you want to steamroll the content then so be it, that was your decision. If it's about others doing it then what is it about others doing something the way they want to that bothers you all? It can't possibly be the items that drop, can it? Certainly people obtaining mid-level items wouldn't be the main motivation for the outcry. I mean it's not like someone obtaining the armor by easier means somehow cheapens its usefulness to you, and it's not like they're obtaining end-game gear that will somehow forever place them above you. At this point all I can imagine is that it comes down to flaunting achievements and saying "look at my awesome gear," at which point I just have to say sorry but that's not a good reason to change this in my opinion. And really, it's mid-level stuff. That's nothing to be outraged over.

I think that a lot of this is due to the content being the first in the game. Down the road when we have many more dungeons and things to do this will probably be a non-issue.

Also I believe Bayohne pointed out in this line here,

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With the release of patch 1.18 we will monitor the comments and feedback from the community and re-evaluate as necessary and implement variations as needed.

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That party size requirements and such aren't forever fixed. Just wait and see how things pan out and if you don't like it? Fine, demand change. For now I suggest we chill a bit.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

If you are capped, by definition you can't go higher. I assume it would work the same as being capped at 50.

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I'm talking about in the scenario where you are a rank 42 or whatever class desynced to rank 30.

There is going to be grumbling either way: level cap or no level cap. If you want a challenge then do the one appropriate for you. But believe me, if there was a level cap, just like most of the CoP missions people would complain about that. It has already happened in the past, and people were upset. People will always be upset. Can't please everyone.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

If you are capped, by definition you can't go higher. I assume it would work the same as being capped at 50.

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In FFXI, characters under level cap still earned exp on mobs that gave exp. They still gained their levels. But the cap prevented that level from manifesting until they were out of the level cap.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

I'm talking about in the scenario where you are a rank 42 or whatever class desynced to rank 30.

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A cap is a cap isn't it? Even at rank 42, if you are CAPPED at r30, by definition you shouldn't be getting SP. Can someone confirm how it was in CoP? I'm pretty sure that if you went into a lvl 30 Promy on a rank 40 job, you didn't get XP.

Self-centeredness: own opinion = fact, the rest is bull****
That's the reason why I should really just stick to dev posts only.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

A cap is a cap isn't it? Even at rank 42, if you are CAPPED at r30, by definition you shouldn't be getting SP. Can someone confirm how it was in CoP? I'm pretty sure that if you went into a lvl 30 Promy on a rank 40 job, you didn't get XP.

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If you were capped everything about you was changed, including your ability to obtain exp. For all intents and purposes you were level 30 (or whatever level) and obtained exp as such. The exp wasn't GOOD but you still got it.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

A cap is a cap isn't it? Even at rank 42, if you are CAPPED at r30, by definition you shouldn't be getting SP. Can someone confirm how it was in CoP? I'm pretty sure that if you went into a lvl 30 Promy on a rank 40 job, you didn't get XP.

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You still got EXP for level sync in FF11, I don't see why it can't be any different. As long as you kill mobs that are rank-appropriate (real level or synced level) it doesn't matter since you are killing mobs that are challenging.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

I could solo the R30 NMs if they unlocked the player requirements, so your input is irrelevant. I can destroy a party of rank 30's as a rank 50.
So yeah. I'd be soloing the R30 dungeon. Maybe you wouldn't on whatever caliber of conjurer or thaumaturge you have.

I'm not you. Pretty obvious.

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No you won't cause you NEED to be in a group of 4 people to enter the dungeon. And what the fuck is wrong with you. It's a R30 dungeon...so its tuned for R30s, not R50s...if you want a challenge in it, you need to go in it as R30, not R50...and this applies to ALL MMORPGs out there. Once you overlevel something, it becomes easier, but it's not content for the high lvls, its content for the low lvls, so there is nothing wrong with it. As a R50 there should be nothing of interest in the R30 dnugeon for you anyway...so obviously you enter and try to get the R50 dungeon done...and its tuned for R50, so the word "difficult" applie to it as much as it does to the R30 dnugeon, cause its tuned for that.

If you want a difficult R30 dungeon that even R50s have a hard time finishing it, why would you call it R30...you are just retarded. Use your common sense, or do other people need to chew your food for you? If Yoshida says "difficult" to both dungeons, he obviously means difficult for the TARGETED group of people the content was made for, which would be R30s in the case of the lower rank dungeon. THINK!

To the topic: Can people actually start to think? People want challenge in dungeons...they want difficulty...they want endgame content...well...I'm sorry but if you're allowed to bring as many peolpe as you wish, there is no challenge anymore. Content must be tuned for a specific size of groups to make it challenging, otherwise all balancing is in vain. So if you have trouble getting together a group of 8, start recruiting people that are interested in that kind of content. If you got too many ppl showing up and some have to sit out, get some rotation going...it's not that hard...beating endgame content means organising shit and if you're not able to do that, you shouldn't lead a LS in the first place that wants to do endgame. Endgame requires organisation and people who can think of stuff beforehand and deal with it in a proper manner with solutions. If you got members who are not willing to join in on the R50 dungeon every 2nd run, instead of EACH one, they are greedy lil lootwhores and you should sort them out anyway...

2nd possible conclusion, get enough for 2 groups and nobody/less ppl need to sit out. If you got more than 16 active players wanting to participate in endgame(which is unlikely at the current state of FFXIV), well, then some ppl have to sit out, but that's life... As long as the lockout timer for the dungeon won't be more than 2-3 days, I'm fine with sitting out every now and then, that's part of playing endgame...in XI you had to sit out on stuff like Bahamut v2, or Omega/Ultima as well, if more than 18ppl showed up. Sometimes you have to sit out, cause you don't have the class lvld thats needed...so there is a lot of reasons someone has to sit out and if that someone is not willing to do that...well fuck him...

PS: I can't wait for the threads about "PLS NERF R50 dungeon" cause my pick up group of mentally retarded people can't finish it within the timelimit...

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

You still got EXP for level sync in FF11, I don't see why it can't be any different. As long as you kill mobs that are rank-appropriate (real level or synced level) it doesn't matter since you are killing mobs that are challenging.

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Then it seems like it could be exploitable. There would no longer be incentive to go level my 45 lancer on appropriate mobs when I could just sit in a dungeon that caps my level and gives me the same SP.

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Originally Posted by Volsung

There is going to be grumbling either way: level cap or no level cap. If you want a challenge then do the one appropriate for you. But believe me, if there was a level cap, just like most of the CoP missions people would complain about that. It has already happened in the past, and people were upset. People will always be upset. Can't please everyone.

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I personally disagree. I don't see a legitimate reason to NOT have a cap.

"I am rank 50 so it should be easy if I want"

Then go kill rank 30 monsters, but, your not getting SP or gear for it.

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Originally Posted by Focant

So I'm a bit confused by the outrage over there being no level cap on the mid-level dungeon. What exactly about that is bad? ...

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I agree people *may* be over-reacting here, in that if it turns out as you suggested, people will just have to deal with the fact that it's not the content a lot of people were after. That said, Square needs to realize they don't have too much good will from the player base left (if any at all).

My concern is this (admittedly I'm not that passionate about it): If I try the content with a rank 25 class. Very quickly, I hit rank 26, and then 27, and so on. Very quickly the dungeon becomes easy (assuming it's challenging at 25). So I think the overall concern is that this patch will essentially add 1 dungeon people actually care about, and the second dungeon will be something a lot of people crash through a few times to see what it's like but move on quickly because it's too easy.

Of course, if FFXIV had 20 dungeons, I think people would expect this type of content. Or at least something similar to it. So I personally don't have a huge problem with the uncapped r25 dungeon, I'm just not excited for it.

As an aside, I think people saying things like "just run it at r30 if you want a challenge" is a bit disingenuous. It's not easy to find people around a particular level. Soon enough, people at 32, and 34, say they'll come and eventually the person organizing the raid gives in and takes them. And the dungeon becomes a lot easier. Of course, that's the human side of all this and someone holding firm *can* hold off for nobody over r30. But I think that's more difficult than simply saying it.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Then it seems like it could be exploitable. There would no longer be incentive to go level my 45 lancer on appropriate mobs when I could just sit in a dungeon that caps my level and gives me the same SP.

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It was exploitable in FF11, yes, with Astral burns and what not.

It depends if it's an exploit or not if the relative difficulty of doing the dungeon is easier than grinding at your actual level. If there is a glaring disparity, then yeah, it's an exploit, but there can be countermeasures in place to avoid that as well as game balance adjustments.

But seeing as how dungeon content is supposed to be harder than normal grinding, I don't see how it's much of an exploit.

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Originally Posted by Gidonoidon_Sur

I personally disagree. I don't see a legitimate reason to NOT have a cap.

"I am rank 50 so it should be easy if I want"

Then go kill rank 30 monsters, but, your not getting SP or gear for it.

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As I understand it a rank 50 would not get SP in this dungeon (because there's no cap) and the gear is mid-level stuff. What's the issue exactly? It's content meant for mid-level players to do and find challenging. If a rank 50 wants to get some buddies together and steamroll the dungeon then whatever, that's a challenge and fun they've missed out on. This should, however, have NO effect on your own enjoyment of the content.

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Originally Posted by Focant

That party size requirements and such aren't forever fixed. Just wait and see how things pan out and if you don't like it? Fine, demand change. For now I suggest we chill a bit.

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No?

This is exactly the problem. We should have been demanding change months ago. Not now or after the content is added. This needs to be demanded now. Nothing will make people quit a game faster than not being able to do content because they don't have enough members due to requirements like that.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

It was exploitable in FF11, yes, with Astral burns and what not.

It depends if it's an exploit or not if the relative difficulty of doing the dungeon is easier than grinding at your actual level. If there is a glaring disparity, then yeah, it's an exploit, but there can be countermeasures in place to avoid that as well as game balance adjustments.

But seeing as how dungeon content is supposed to be harder than normal grinding, I don't see how it's much of an exploit.

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But there in lies another issue, maybe the leading factor as to WHY it is the way it is. Maybe the dungeons are meant to be a viable alternative to leves and grinding. The trade off, then, would be that you can go in and grind mobs for SP in a dungeon for 10 levels, but you may exceed your 60 minutes if you want to get good SP.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

If there is a glaring disparity, then yeah, it's an exploit, but there can be countermeasures in place to avoid that as well as game balance adjustments.

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There are. There's a time restriction on how often you can enter, which more than likely will be 24-36hrs. Not so sure "grinding," in a dungeon for an hour every day would fall into the exploit category.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

I agree people *may* be over-reacting here, in that if it turns out as you suggested, people will just have to deal with the fact that it's not the content a lot of people were after. That said, Square needs to realize they don't have too much good will from the player base left (if any at all).

My concern is this (admittedly I'm not that passionate about it): If I try the content with a rank 25 class. Very quickly, I hit rank 26, and then 27, and so on. Very quickly the dungeon becomes easy (assuming it's challenging at 25). So I think the overall concern is that this patch will essentially add 1 dungeon people actually care about, and the second dungeon will be something a lot of people crash through a few times to see what it's like but move on quickly because it's too easy.

Of course, if FFXIV had 20 dungeons, I think people would expect this type of content. Or at least something similar to it. So I personally don't have a huge problem with the uncapped r25 dungeon, I'm just not excited for it.

As an aside, I think people saying things like "just run it at r30 if you want a challenge" is a bit disingenuous. It's not easy to find people around a particular level. Soon enough, people at 32, and 34, say they'll come and eventually the person organizing the raid gives in and takes them. And the dungeon becomes a lot easier. Of course, that's the human side of all this and someone holding firm *can* hold off for nobody over r30. But I think that's more difficult than simply saying it.

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Well I suppose I understand what you're saying but I think it's far too early to be coming to conclusions like that. For one we have no idea how long the dungeons are, how much sp they give, or, really, anything about them at all aside from entry requirements.

Also I think content like this would benefit greatly from an improved party search mechanic. There aren't really that few people in the proper rank range, it's just not easy to find them walking down the street. Again though, we need to just wait and see. As it is we're basically arguing which way the wind is blowing on the other side of the world.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Are four players required to enter rank 25+ raids? And 8 for 45+?
Currently, yes. Rank 25+ raids will require four players to enter, and rank 45+ raids will require a full party of 8. This is a result of the balancing that is done inside of the actual raid, along with ensuring proper load on the servers are maintained. With the release of patch 1.18 we will monitor the comments and feedback from the community and re-evaluate as necessary and implement variations as needed.

But... are these raids gonna be tough? I want a challenge! I CRAVE A CHALLENGE!!!1
Rest assured... When speaking about the current raid dungeons, we can sum it up in one word: difficult.

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LOL don't say that to XI players such as myself, we'll be laughing at the ridiculous ease of this new content.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

No?

This is exactly the problem. We should have been demanding change months ago. Not now or after the content is added. This needs to be demanded now. Nothing will make people quit a game faster than not being able to do content because they don't have enough members due to requirements like that.

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What happened to making informed decisions? How can you demand change for something you know nothing about? Isn't experience and familiarity valued over theory and assumptions? Seriously, wait to experience it. See if it's really as bad as you say, and THEN change it. Why change something because you "think" it'll be bad but have no real reason to assume such?

It's fine to be worried and skeptical and to discuss it as such, but to DEMAND change based on something so insubstantial is just ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

No?

This is exactly the problem. We should have been demanding change months ago. Not now or after the content is added. This needs to be demanded now. Nothing will make people quit a game faster than not being able to do content because they don't have enough members due to requirements like that.

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you know thats the funniest part of these threads

the issue of the party size "requirement" is so much bigger then capping the dungeons

yet people are more worried about wether or not a 50 will go in and do the dungeon easier for gear

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Originally Posted by Focant

Well I suppose I understand what you're saying but I think it's far too early to be coming to conclusions like that. For one we have no idea how long the dungeons are, how much sp they give, or, really, anything about them at all aside from entry requirements.

Also I think content like this would benefit greatly from an improved party search mechanic. There aren't really that few people in the proper rank range, it's just not easy to find them walking down the street. Again though, we need to just wait and see. As it is we're basically arguing which way the wind is blowing on the other side of the world.

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Oh I agree with that. I think people do have a bit of a right to be skeptical and questioning before we accept terrible content because this game, frankly, can't afford that anymore.

The only reason I checked this thread out though was the r50 dungeon 8 player requirement. That is something that really bothers me.

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

in XI you had to sit out on stuff like Bahamut v2, or Omega/Ultima as well, if more than 18ppl showed up. .

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It's one thing sitting out because you have too many show up, but quite another to sit out because you're one or two members short of the requirement. No one is asking to enter this dungeon with 9 or 10 people. We're asking to enter it with 6-7 in a situation where 12-15 people show up. If 9 turn up then tough luck on the 9th, but the content should be manageable (although more difficult) with 6 or 7. The fact the developers are willing to consider lowering the requirement at all tells you this.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

you know thats the funniest part of these threads

the issue of the party size "requirement" is so much bigger then capping the dungeons

yet people are more worried about wether or not a 50 will go in and do the dungeon easier for gear

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I'm worried about both, but the focus of my rage is more important on the requirement issue for now. Both are bad ideas by the developers.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Bay, this doesn't make any sense. You can't have a difficult raid if you can take classes in that are 20 levels over the intended design of the area. It can't work. If the one word is difficult, then by default it isn't even a rank 30 dungeon. It's a rank 50 dungeon you would be crazy to take R30s into.

Otherwise, the one word is not difficult.

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Learn to Read. Noone said that the Rank of the Mob wont change if you enter a R25 Dungeon, with a R50 Class.