I'm all for clever localization but please don't just leave out important story.

Greetings!

While there have been some good points and views brought up, this thread has begun changing into two opposing groups arguing over semantics to justify their points. While feedback about the translations and localization is welcome, if the thread remains focused on convincing people who do not agree with you that they need to agree with you, I will be closing the thread since those arguments are not generating a productive, civil discussion. This will require further moderation - with accompanying forum account actions - over comments made in the heat of the moment. If the thread itself is not moving forward in a meaningful way, I would rather not have to issue those account actions that can impact the status of your forum accounts and posting permissions.

Please remain civil with each other in your discussions about your feelings about translation and localization, and, if you feel yourself repeating your comments, maybe take a break from the thread to prevent saying something negative you may later regret.

LGM Enkrateia

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Originally Posted by Atmora

Inception had characters with motivations that were not directly stated or immediately apparent therefor it is too hard to understand.

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Inception is not a video game marketed at teenagers and--seriously, we could play this game all day until you come up with an actually decent comparison, but there's literally no point to it because you have completely missed the focus of my original statement. The choices the English team made were based on Ferne's dragonspeak ideas. The other teams did not seem to think following his dragonspeak rules for this scene was a good idea. Therefore, I believe that, as in many things, majority should have ruled and the English team should have done something that was closer to the decisions the other teams made. The fact that they didn't seems to be, to me at least, because they were too close and too personally invested in the whole dragonspeak concept and didn't want to ditch that.

I said nothing about whether or not the English translation was quality writing or whether or not it was hard to understand because it was poorly written. That is an entirely different issue and I have no idea why in the world you chose to fixate on a single phrase of my post as if that was my sole arguing point against the English translation.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

... you really can't see why the English localization decided to tone down a character who sexually harasses the PC?

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You can? the character is that way, the game has an age rating so it's valid and legal, you may like him or not, you may be gay or straight, but a work of art can't be changed by ideals or cultural differences, not in this age, it has been done in the past and because of it the world have lost important pieces, i made a reference of how the catholic scribes back in the middle ages "localized" some Asian texts.


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I'm sorry Enkrateia, will keep it civil form now and try to avoid repeating information.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

post number 125

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To avoid making a new post and repeating myself i edited this post, could you refer to one of my previous post where i explain the method used by the dev team? explained by Yoshi in one of the public events.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

... you really can't see why the English localization decided to tone down a character who sexually harasses the PC?

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Seeming the same NPC is allowed to sexually harass the character during the last Heavensturn event, yes, I question the two-toned logic in that.

The Heavensturn event completely threw the NA crowd off guard with no understanding why until they educated themselves to the point that hey, that's how the character ACTUALLY was, it just got censored before that point.

Listen, I get the concept of trying to shield the eyes of people from hot button topics, but I've been over that already: this game has a Teen Rating with the typical Online disclaimer: We don't need to treat these subject matters with kid gloves - especially when we do it inconsistently.

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Originally Posted by Renik

In any case, what is being discussed here, in case you haven't noticed, is how a single localization team is taking too much liberty to the point, they affect the characters' personalities and the information they give, as much as i admire Ferne for all the lore information he releases to the public, he and his team have crossed the line this time, and by this i mean since 2.4, where the changes started to be more noticeable and annoying.

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You clearly do not understand how professional translation actually works. Translators cannot "take too much liberty" because they are required to have their translations approved by a higher authority-- aka the people who hired them to do the translation in the first place.

How do I know this? Because I have done profesional Japanese-English translation. I spent five years working for a Japanese company where one of my responsibilities was to translate various documentation, correspondence, etc. from Japanese into English. Every time I did so, even if it was something as mundane as translating PowerPoint slides for a conference, I had to have the original author approve my translations and make sure that they were conveying the proper intent. One time I was tasked with translating an official recall notice issued by a certain very large Japanese auto manufacturer. I was given very strict guidelines within which to work for this particular translation: the formatting MUST follow the formatting of the original Japanese recall notice exactly, certain terms/phrases MUST be translated a certain way, etc. On top of that, I then had to have it approved by two different sets of people before it was accepted.

The idea that the translators and localization team just do whatever they want without input from the higher-ups is not only laughable, it is patently false. That isn't how things work at all.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

You mean entirely different as in consisting of more than two dimensions?

I appreciate that you have your own likes and dislikes, and that you apparently enjoy the "old sage" cliche. But haven't we had enough of those for now? Old Sage Louisoux, Old Sage Ramuh, Old Sage Manderville, heck we could probably even stick Kan-E-Senna in here too.

Now, as far as ensuring all the translations of the game should be on the same page? I completely agree, and wholeheartedly support the other sectors (including JP) taking more inspiration and direction from the great writing Fern's team has given us.

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You know what. I'll agree there. If the translations are the same across the board, we woulden't be having this heated of a discussion. Regardless of which, I do feel we need to have a more unified depiction of the story going forward, without huge outliers like we had here.


That is the core of my critique - not that the fact that we have a grumpy old Midgardsormr who thinks the player character is trash. My critique is that we now have two different Midgardsomrs floating around in everyone's head, giving different parts of information across the board.

If he's going to be obtuse and obscuring, or subtle and snide, let him be that way across the board. My opinion is that there should not be dependencies of information given and characterizations depicted. If for no other reason that for multi-lingual groups, one thing that could be counted as spoilers for one group is being flat out given to another.

One characterization per character please.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

The idea that the translators and localization team just do whatever they want without input from the higher-ups is not only laughable, it is patently false. That isn't how things work at all.

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That's a red herring. Nobody is questioning whether or not the localization was approved, we're criticizing the fact that it was too far deviant from the other languages. The original writing team condoning or consenting to the Localization of Midgardsormor is irrelevant to the feedback provided.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

That's a red herring. Nobody is questioning whether or not the localization was approved, we're criticizing the fact that it was too far deviant from the other languages. The original writing team condoning or consenting to the Localization of Midgardsormor is irrelevant to the feedback provided.

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But it isn't. If you pay attention to what Midgardsormr is saying, it's exactly the same thing in both languages. The only difference is that he's far more verbose and exposition-dumping in Japanese than in English.

I played it in English first and had no trouble coming away from that scene knowing that a) he was testing us rather than trying to harm us, b) that he was doing so in agreement with Hydaelyn, and c) that the dragons were attacking because of what Ishgard was doing. It's all there in the English text, they just aren't beating you over the head with it the way they are in Japanese.

From what it sounds like is the English players got a much better version in our localization, I found it very easy to understand. At no point did I not understand what he had done to me and what he intended to do. We can argue semantics all day long, but SE approved our translation regardless and literally no amount of crying about it will change that fact. If people had issues understanding the english version of the story then I feel bad that subtlety is lost on them.

In all honesty this topic needs to be dropped and forgotten, if you want to change things then try and get hired on the localization team. Don't be upset if the devs themselves change it from the JP version too much for your liking though.

I completely agree with the OP. The reasoning given would justify if that's how the dialogue was for all language options, but it doesn't justify giving English a fraction of the story points with a fraction of the clarity. The disparity between the languages is unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

But it isn't. If you pay attention to what Midgardsormr is saying, it's exactly the same thing in both languages. The only difference is that he's far more verbose and exposition-dumping in Japanese than in English.

I played it in English first and had no trouble coming away from that scene knowing that a) he was testing us rather than trying to harm us, b) that he was doing so in agreement with Hydaelyn, and c) that the dragons were attacking because of what Ishgard was doing. It's all there in the English text, they just aren't beating you over the head with it the way they are in Japanese.

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Sorry, but I question that, the translation is quite different. Perhaps you may have deduced his meaning within context, but I submit to you perhaps that it was not due to his words in a vacuum.

The mention of a repeated Sin is omitted in the English version completely, it's not even inferred.
The intent to resume attacking is omitted in the Japaneese version, it's not even inferred.

English Midgarsormor omits completely the fact that he is testing the player character. Instead it is inferred only that he is bound to the Player character by compact, and kept from harming the player character by oath.

There is subtlty there, but it does not lead to the same points as translated text, not on its own.

Player may discover the points you are listing is from knowledge outside of the original conversation. You put the last cutscene of 2.4 (or what the Astrologians say in previous cutscenes) and what Midgardsomr says and deduce that the sin may be repeating. That's subtly on behalf of the writer, not the Wyrm, by my gauging.

You may deduce that Midgardsormr may be putting you through trials after Keeper of the Lake when he questions your motive, or deduce as such when you realize the minion appears to be the same as the Storyline Mount revealed at Fanfest, or even due to the fact that he's now effectively permanently by your side - why else would he become a minion and not just some specter-ed head or disembodied voice?

It's an interesting question to think about at least. I do wonder if that's by design of the Dragon Language, leaving the player to pull the pieces together from a greater context than the conversation had?

I pay close attention to each scene, as I thoroughly enjoy the story depicted. And I can't honestly agree with your assessment of his speech, specifically the one given at the Keeper of the Lake. That's why I'm making this feedback. I'm honestly not expecting a grand rewriting, or a complete change in writing course, even for dragon speak. Just a bit more care taken in how scenes deviate from one another in translation. Either the other languages more stylized and obscure, or English language a touch more literal.

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Originally Posted by Wobi

In all honesty this topic needs to be dropped and forgotten, if you want to change things then try and get hired on the localization team. Don't be upset if the devs themselves change it from the JP version too much for your liking though.

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That's... not how customer feedback works. I understand your intention. But you may be mistaking feedback for a tantrum. A developer worth their salt listens to player feedback and makes feasible adjustments as they deem necessary. I am bothered by this, but not so much that I will leave the game in anger.