Thank you Yoshi for your stance on DPS meters

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Originally Posted by Thamorian

That they did, and they are right, just like a hammer, a rifle is a tool, an inanimate object. It does not have a will of its own. It's not going suddenly spring to life and start firing. There needs to be a human holding it and using it. But this forum isn't the place to discuss gun rights and issues if thats where you were going with your comment.

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Well the thing about tools is they all can be misused and all have different potential damage. In SE's eyes the parser tool has the potential to cause a lot of damage due to the community misusing it.

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Originally Posted by Thamorian

And yet we keep getting WoW refugees who keep complimenting FF14 saying "Wow, I came over from WoW and people are so much nicer here!" Maybe you need to stop hanging out with the same few bad apples?

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This community is probably the most toxic, report happy community I have ever been a part of. No, I don't hang out with anyone either, I literally play solo, and barely talk in-game (never had a single GM interaction). It's just a different kind of toxic. Don't worry though, this game's community also has the traditional toxicity evidenced by the discussion herein (Yoshida's statement).

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

This community is probably the most toxic, report happy community I have ever been a part of. No, I don't hang out with anyone either, I literally play solo, and barely talk in-game (never had a single GM interaction). It's just a different kind of toxic. Don't worry though, this game's community also has the traditional toxicity evidenced by the discussion herein (Yoshida's statement).

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Report happy and toxic are two very different things. Are you perhaps conflating both? Because in theory the toxic behavior would be reported by the report happy community.
I'm confused.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

This community is probably the most toxic, report happy community I have ever been a part of.

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To me it looks like just any other mmorpg community I have been part of. They're all the same. They just don't all have the same tools to be toxic with. How FFXIV is now reminds me very much of how the WoW community was before parser use was commonplace.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Report happy and toxic are two very different things. Are you perhaps conflating both? Because in theory the toxic behavior would be reported by the report happy community.
I'm confused.

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You guys (who report) are doing God's work getting those dang toxic WoW refugees out of our game!

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Well the thing about tools is they all can be misused and all have different potential damage. In SE's eyes the parser tool has the potential to cause a lot of damage due to the community misusing it.

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Agreed, that is why SE's official stance is that parsers are not allowed, which also gives them easier justification to suspend or ban someone who is toxic while using one, someone who is harassing other people over their DPS numbers in a condescending way. But I do appreciate SE turns a blind eye to people who are not abusive with it. Some people could do with some constructive criticism and asking them if they would like some feedback on how to better improve their gameplay can be helpful. Whether they actually accept the help or not, sometimes we can see who is not playing their job that well regardless if a parser was used, because remember, if you know a job well enough, you don't need a parser to see who has a really messed up rotation or who has a 1 button rotation. Constructive criticism itself doesn't necessarily mean they we are being rude to the person we are offering it to.

I would like to disagree since my time was usually spent helping other players become better, and often times they end up outshining me which I'm perfectly okay with (I never pretend to be the best anyways...I got bad eyesight and RSI) and my friend list tends to fill up rather quick.

Speaking of, DynnDiablos, I saw your tell last night and freed up a spot for you so if you have some time on the weekend let me know. I'll add you to my friend's list ASAP.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

This community is probably the most toxic, report happy community I have ever been a part of. No, I don't hang out with anyone either, I literally play solo, and barely talk in-game (never had a single GM interaction). It's just a different kind of toxic. Don't worry though, this game's community also has the traditional toxicity evidenced by the discussion herein (Yoshida's statement).

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Nah, *I think* it's only on these forums we talk about reporting so much, and I only say to report because this forum community demands SE take action against whatever. I rarely see talk about reporting people in game unless there is an actual issue. I do play on Gilgamesh though so maybe its's different on other servers. I personally rarely report, only doing so when I feel it's necessary like a RMT bot telling people to search for a youtube video for a gil giveaway with a link to a phishing site. If someone was being rude in a dungeon, I just finish my dungeon and move on with my day, and blacklist if I feel like it even though I know the odds of getting that same person in DF is practically zero.

This thread and the one about mentors are perfect examples. Forum members demand SE take action, to remove the mentor system and ban anyone even suggesting they are parsing. Instead, of destroying a system or punishing everyone using a parser even if all they ever did was show joy for getting a good personal parse, why not instead report the really nasty people? Then if your complaint is that reports do nothing, then why aren't you instead raising that issue? Letting SE know you aren't happy that toxic members of our community go unpunished? And at the same time, just because someone perceives something as toxic may not of actually been toxic and GMs decided the "toxic" person did nothing wrong. And I'm not talking about clear cut cases where the toxic person was swearing out of anger and threatening someone.

I strongly feel this forums attitude is not reflective of most players in game.

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Originally Posted by Thamorian

That they did, and they are right, just like a hammer, a rifle is a tool, an inanimate object. It does not have a will of its own. It's not going suddenly spring to life and start firing. There needs to be a human holding it and using it. But this forum isn't the place to discuss gun rights and issues if thats where you were going with your comment.

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No intention to discuss about gun right.
I am saying that fundamentally it is the same thing.
It is a tool and it is all up to the user but I am certainly feels safer to walks on the street in the countries that forbidden firearms.
For the parser, there wont be grieving if it is forbidden officially and now it is.
They don't want to deal with player drama and intends to lower the harassment down to the minimum.

Fundamentally, it is the same. Firearm is forbidden (Parser). They will not actively to hunt you as long as you don't break the law (use fire arm/use parser to harass). As long as nothing happen, you are free to use parser for your self improvement. Nevertheless, it doesn't mean it is legal and you are subject to account penalty (arrest if caught carry a gun).

What are you trying to prove right now?
Please do not sugar-coating or get on high horse tho, humanity simply doesn't works that well at mass

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Originally Posted by Angus-Beef

But over all in WoW, espcially back then, there were a massive abundance of guilds willing to help and teach.

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I am glad that you are; but unfortunately you are minority already
That may be true when 25 men raid is a thing, and me too, as a Paladin officer i will provided the assistance.
Game culture has changed
That is is simply not how humanity works at mass

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Fundamentally, it is the same. Firearm is forbidden (Parser). They will not actively to hunt you as long as you don't break the law (use fire arm/use parser to harass). As long as nothing happen, you are free to use parser for your self improvement. Nevertheless, it doesn't mean it is legal and you are subject to account penalty (arrest if caught carry a gun).

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Why on earth is a real life tool intended to kill living beings, compared to a digital number analysis tool in a computer game?

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

What are you trying to prove right now?

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Same to you.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Why on earth is a real life tool intended to kill living beings, compared to a digital number analysis tool in a computer game?

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It's the whole "guns don't kill, people do" sort of argument, which is being compared to "parsers aren't toxic, people are".

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I am glad that you are; but unfortunately you are minority already
That may be true when 25 men raid is a thing, and me too, as a Paladin officer i will provided the assistance.
Game culture has changed
That is is simply not how humanity works at mass

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Player to play experiences vary greatly. What you have seen, what I have seen. Doesn;t matter. The issue rn with parsing is simple, just as it was back then in wow, too mnay lazy entitled players in the popular MMO who are mad they're being called out to not weight the group down, some people who call others out are mean, yes, but a decent amount of these situations aren't looked at with logic, they're looked at with emotion. Because of that they are usually blown way out of proportion, a GM gets involved, said person usually gets a warning for possibly being slightly harsh and the person who made the report feels better about themselves.

Now out of that situation several things happen, that lazy/bad player will not improve, they will continually be in that exact same situation with a myriad of different players, parsers and non-parsers, all will tell them to get better, they'll keep acting entitled to wasting others time and continue to keep doing it. The player who was reported will either go on to make sure to word things better or just refuse to help anymore, or become toxic to any player seen not pulling their weight.

As for my personal situation I've come from in WoW, I was ina raiding guild from Ulduar to mid ICC, they used recount as a means to yes, weed out the weaker raiders and replace them with more competent raider. My group that I was leading were filled with these raider who needed to improve, so I would fire up recount, take em to the dumy and give them the gold needed to respec and work on their talent build and rotation. my job was to spend hours if needed in my free time making sure everyone was optimal and doing properly.

This ofc is just one guild, one guild that wanted players to be optimal. This mentality also died as WoW grew bigger and the newer players became lazier and more self entitled. Parsers are in no way comparible to guns, but as a tool it shows facts, these facts are needed if any MMO community is to maintain a healthy raiding scene. Without them it would be hard to weed out these players who don;t realize that the needs of the group are always before the needs of self. Atm FF has amny smaller communities a lot of people don't notice because well, people like to not interact. But to say ACT hasn't helped and current;y isn't being used to help is a massive fallacy.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

It's the whole "guns don't kill, people do" sort of argument, which is being compared to "parsers aren't toxic, people are".

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Point exactly.

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Originally Posted by Angus-Beef

Player to play experiences vary greatly. What you have seen, what I have seen. Doesn;t matter. The issue rn with parsing is simple, just as it was back then in wow, too mnay lazy entitled players in the popular MMO who are mad they're being called out to not weight the group down, some people who call others out are mean, yes, but a decent amount of these situations aren't looked at with logic, they're looked at with emotion. Because of that they are usually blown way out of proportion, a GM gets involved, said person usually gets a warning for possibly being slightly harsh and the person who made the report feels better about themselves.

Now out of that situation several things happen, that lazy/bad player will not improve, they will continually be in that exact same situation with a myriad of different players, parsers and non-parsers, all will tell them to get better, they'll keep acting entitled to wasting others time and continue to keep doing it. The player who was reported will either go on to make sure to word things better or just refuse to help anymore, or become toxic to any player seen not pulling their weight.

As for my personal situation I've come from in WoW, I was ina raiding guild from Ulduar to mid ICC, they used recount as a means to yes, weed out the weaker raiders and replace them with more competent raider. My group that I was leading were filled with these raider who needed to improve, so I would fire up recount, take em to the dumy and give them the gold needed to respec and work on their talent build and rotation. my job was to spend hours if needed in my free time making sure everyone was optimal and doing properly.

This ofc is just one guild, one guild that wanted players to be optimal. This mentality also died as WoW grew bigger and the newer players became lazier and more self entitled. Parsers are in no way comparible to guns, but as a tool it shows facts, these facts are needed if any MMO community is to maintain a healthy raiding scene. Without them it would be hard to weed out these players who don;t realize that the needs of the group are always before the needs of self. Atm FF has amny smaller communities a lot of people don't notice because well, people like to not interact. But to say ACT hasn't helped and current;y isn't being used to help is a massive fallacy.

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You are saying this, yet there are people that pull off Koike incident on a livest ream.
Is Miyu Koike a lazy raider or she is just being humiliated and harassed?
This is where the problem is, community does not see the positives that parsers can bring because of outweighed by all of the negatives

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

You are saying this, yet there are people that pull off Koike incident on a livest ream.
Is Miyu Koike a lazy raider or she is just being humiliated and harassed?
This is where the problem is, community does not see the positives that parsers can bring because of outweighed by all of the negatives

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There were no parsers involved at that point to be fair.

Though to also be fair people in Japan that are harassed are often harassed so that the person commits suicide.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I am glad that you are; but unfortunately you are minority already
That may be true when 25 men raid is a thing, and me too, as a Paladin officer i will provided the assistance.
Game culture has changed
That is is simply not how humanity works at mass

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Well that's a bit of a pessimistic view, and not one I really agree with. I'm more with the person you're quoting here... your experiences are not universal. Several people in my guild when I raided in Legion were more than willing to help people improve, and the one member we did kick for underperforming was given several chances to improve and willingly chose not to.

I'm not here to argue on the nature of humanity, and I'm sorry you've had enough negative experiences to see parsers as nothing more than a weapon to be used to cause harm (if I'm understanding your view correctly?), but that's not how I see them at all. They're a tool, but how they're used is entirely up to the person using them. And I've seen them used for good plenty of times, and most often during my 15+ years playing wow, they simply weren't mentioned at all. In my experience people generally didn't care outside of high end content as long as it looked like you were actually present and trying, and those who did were either full of themselves to begin with or were That One Guy who spams the meter after every pull in Shadowfang Keep because he's Cool Like That (you know the guy...) and that kinda nonsense is just that... nonsense. Not worth taking seriously more often than not.

I just love how this person literally missed my whole point and dodged the the points I made

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Originally Posted by Penthea

It's the whole "guns don't kill, people do" sort of argument, which is being compared to "parsers aren't toxic, people are".

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Point exactly.

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Which is true. Parsers arent self aware entities. Theyre tools and they can be misused. The problem with your position is this:

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

There is no "positive" use of parser/recount/damage meter because we are all hypocrites (yes, including me)
Parser, instead of a tool used for feedback, it becomes a weapon.
Since TBC to BFA in WoW, not even once where parser is being used for teaching purpose.
It is a tool for guild officers to weed out the less performers.
You are being delusional if you are saying otherwise.
I am in my WoW guild's officer chat
The individual who claiming "meter doesn't matter" in the gchat/vent/discord is the same person who is complaining about other's healing/dps is up to par.
YoshipP is/was a WoW players and of course he has witnessed these hypocrites.
People will not use parser as tool for improvement and merely use it as a tool for elimination
If FF14 already made their stance on parser, please don't try to sugarcoating to make parser looks so positive when it is actually not in reality
Yes, you can still use parser; but just be reminded that you are also vulnerable to violate TOS for account penalty.
There is no point to argue further.

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Speak for yourself in this regards. The crux of your position regarding it not being positive is predicated that everyone is a hypocrite, toxic, will abuse parsers, and that no one is above this. Thats a pretty dark and frankly BS position to hold. It pretty is boiling down to everyone is a bad person deep down therefore no one should have parsers. It's kind of messed up. And you try to rationalize this position by your own personal experience in WoW. Guess what, I played WoW too, and you want to know what was toxic as F there? Achievements. You want to know what was toxic as F there? PvP. You want to know what else was? Loot systems from raids. You want to know the truth? Toxicity isnt about a specific thing, its about some people who are jerks will find ways to be jerks. This is why YoshiP is saying its a harassment issue - because its a tool that is being misused by a small portion of players. And guess what? He and SE isnt banning people for it unless it comes up in harassment cases. Why is that? Could it be that he understands that its not the tool in of itself and that it's people using said tool irresponsibly? Hell, the fact SE isnt going hard on it to address toxicity would also imply that they dont see it as a huge widespread problem and have systems in place to address harassment. At worst, his position about not having a parser in game actually is more damning of casual players, as those who raid are likely using one already and adding one to game will grant greater access to casual players. The implication that doing so would increase toxicity means that the toxicity is gonna come from the casual crowd, not raiders.

But lets play devil's advocate here! Lets twirl our mustaches and laugh maniacally. What is wrong with raid leaders weeding out players who are under performing and holding the raid back from progress? Raiding is a group effort. If someone is preventing your group from progressing do to lack of skill, even if they put in tons of effort, should the other members be held back? If the boss requires a sustained DPS of 80,000 to beat enrage, a DPS that has been designed into the fight by the devs, and one of your DPS is only doing 3k DPS, are you literally saying "Nah, its wrong for the static to weed out under performers!" Cause even if the other DPS did a solid 13k a piece, and tanks did 8k and healers did 8k. Youd end up short.

See the problem with the point you said way back is that youre conflating raid leaders and raid groups ability to cut underperforming members who arent measuring up with being toxic. That to discern quality raiders from poor ones is somehow inherently toxic. But thats the thing. Its not. It's a lot about how you go about it. If the raid leader pulls aside said person and says "Hey, you need to pick it up cause were struggling to clear here." is one thing, and isnt in any way toxic. If they cut them and explain why in a decent mannered way, its not toxic. Now if said raid leader was like "Yeah, youre a PoS trash player. GTFO" and encourages everyone to gang up on said player, thats toxic.

The reality is that most statics will cut you if you under perform. And most of htem will be honest but blunt. "You just werent doing high enough damage for progress" or "You werent getting mechanics down and it's slowing us down." And even then, most groups will trial run players that show promise. To be frank, To me it feels a lot more like you got a chip on your shoulder about raiding than it is about parsers. That somehow raiding would be better or less toxic if parsers didnt exist. But thats simply not gonna be the case. As I said, people find ways to be toxic if theyre gonna be because it's not about the tools, its about the people. Hell you want a good FFXIV example of people being toxic without the use of a parser? Try running Orbonne Monastery before reset and get to the third boss and have 1 raid group purposefully wipe for 45 minutes on add phase to stall out the raid long enough so reset happens and screws the other players out of the weekly they were trying to get before reset. That's using literal game mechanics designed by the devs to troll and be toxic towards other players. You dont need a parser to be a jerk in FFXIV, and there are plenty of people who demonstrate this daily who dont have a parser installed.

I've experienced the complete oppoaite on 14 than I did on 11 for some reason. The high level players were usually the most toxic on ff11, because competition for gear was intense. But in 14 the casuals are usually the group that cause the most headaches for me.

The ease at which you can aquire items 14 maybe contributes to these people not applying themselves and not willing learn new things. I can't even ask people to use AoE abilities without gwtting threatened. Now having a parser will seem like people have target on your back since toxic casuals use reporting as a weapon to counter constructive criticism.

Similar to real life political issues, ff14s problem could be cultural or maybe the devs are at fault for umplenting a system that allows gross incompetence. I don't know, because I dont do savage so dont take me seriously.

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Originally Posted by Annihilism

I can't even ask people to use AoE abilities without gwtting threatened.

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I have never seen this happen in all my years of playing. Is this a thing on the NA servers? o.O

Yep. All he's done is confirm that he wants us to silently kick people who suck without a single word. Their being denied the opportunity to improve is their problem. I officially do not care now, because trying to help them lets to toxic casual backlash and possible action on my account.

/Kicku!

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I have never seen this happen in all my years of playing. Is this a thing on the NA servers? o.O

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I literally just had a run of Mt. Gulg where a BLM refused to use any AoEs. Their rotation was all kinds of bonkers as well, like at point I noticed them do 3 Blizzard IVs back to back, Fire III, immediately transpose, then Foul... this was on a big pull mind you. There are people who are quite frankly that bad.

God forbid I say anything in party chat though. At best you get ignored. At worst you get them throwing a fit about you "telling them how to play" and how "lulz we're clearing anyway chill out."

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

I literally just had a run of Mt. Gulg where a BLM refused to use any AoEs. Their rotation was all kinds of bonkers as well, like at point I noticed them do 3 Blizzard IVs back to back, Fire III, immediately transpose, then Foul... this was on a big pull mind you. There are people who are quite frankly that bad.

God forbid I say anything in party chat though. At best you get ignored. At worst you get them throwing a fit about you "telling them how to play" and how "lulz we're clearing anyway chill out."

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Yoshi P wants us to just kick them without a word. So next time; just kick them without a word. Self improvement is their problem, and their holding the party back is a difference in playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I have never seen this happen in all my years of playing. Is this a thing on the NA servers? o.O

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I've had many people flip a lid at me when I've asked them to use aoe on EU, usually its healers who Im asking to use Holy once in a while, but I have had my head torn off by some black mages using single target or just fire 2

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

I literally just had a run of Mt. Gulg where a BLM refused to use any AoEs. Their rotation was all kinds of bonkers as well, like at point I noticed them do 3 Blizzard IVs back to back, Fire III, immediately transpose, then Foul... this was on a big pull mind you. There are people who are quite frankly that bad.

God forbid I say anything in party chat though. At best you get ignored. At worst you get them throwing a fit about you "telling them how to play" and how "lulz we're clearing anyway chill out."

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I...wow...I'm glad that this doesn't seem to be a common thing on my data centre at least.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I...wow...I'm glad that this doesn't seem to be a common thing on my data centre at least.

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Yeah, there's a reason why I'm in favor of parsers being able to hold people accountable and allow for calling out. My standards are not very high, but I am astounded by how often they're failed.

On that note... I was thinking on this topic earlier, and I wonder if people would support a parser that has a low ceiling on it. We know SE has numbers for how much DPS is expected to clear content, that there is an expected amount each member (more for DPS and a bit more for tanks than for healers) is expected to contribute. I think something that monitors if people are passing this threshold, a sort of "If everyone else was putting forth as much effort, would you clear?" kind of parser would do more good than bad.

While I argue with the non-parser crowd a lot, I do understand that nobody wants to be in a position where folks are yelling at them because they're not doing ultimate level efficiency in a leveling dungeon. I don't mind if there's no real in-game way to tell the difference between someone doing content-appropriate amounts of effort and someone pushing their all, at that point it's each person's business how hard they wish to push themselves based on what they find fun. However, I do think if someone desperately needs to learn how to play their class, it's useful to be able to tell who it is.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I...wow...I'm glad that this doesn't seem to be a common thing on my data centre at least.

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It is really common in NA servers in my experience. I often get yelled at for trying to help people, politely even. :/

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Originally Posted by Miste

It is really common in NA servers in my experience. I often get yelled at for trying to help people, politely even. :/

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This is entirely off-topic but...were you a miqo before? If so I'm really digging your new look.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

This is entirely off-topic but...were you a miqo before? If so I'm really digging your new look.

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Yeah I was! I guess you remember me xD

I hope you are well, Penthea! Nice to see you are still around~

**edit** Uh.. not that any one of us were using a parser.. We were using our woman's intuition. -nods-

I have encountered a lot of Toxic Casuals in this game. Granted, I've played since early access in 101.

I have every single job leveled to at least 70, and most to 80. Not to say i'm an expert at everything, but I'm the kind of player who can help just about anyone play just about anything at an average level. When I see a player who is under preforming, it's my desire to help. I had a black mage at level 74 earlier today that didn't know what Freeze was or how it fit into his AoE rotation. It got so bad that the astrologian was running out of mana trying to heal the tank and the tank was running out of cooldowns. We ALL mentioned something and the black mage kept saying "HOW DO YOU KNOW MY DAMAAGE IS BAD HMMM?" He was fishing for someone to admit they were parsing. Rather than take the criticism and improve, he choose to instead try to bait one of us 3 random people into admitting something we'd be punished for.

So we just kicked him. We got a new DPS, and the dungeon went smoothly after that. Moral of the story? Yoshi P has now drawn the line in the sand. If you can't read your tooltips and preform at a decent level, you won't get help.

You get the boot.

Difference in Gameplay.

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Originally Posted by AcaciaTyrannia

**edit** Uh.. not that any one of us were using a parser.. We were using our woman's intuition. -nods-

I have encountered a lot of Toxic Casuals in this game. Granted, I've played since early access in 101.

I have every single job leveled to at least 70, and most to 80. Not to say i'm an expert at everything, but I'm the kind of player who can help just about anyone play just about anything at an average level. When I see a player who is under preforming, it's my desire to help. I had a black mage at level 74 earlier today that didn't know what Freeze was or how it fit into his AoE rotation. It got so bad that the astrologian was running out of mana trying to heal the tank and the tank was running out of cooldowns. We ALL mentioned something and the black mage kept saying "HOW DO YOU KNOW MY DAMAAGE IS BAD HMMM?" He was fishing for someone to admit they were parsing. Rather than take the criticism and improve, he choose to instead try to bait one of us 3 random people into admitting something we'd be punished for.

So we just kicked him. We got a new DPS, and the dungeon went smoothly after that. Moral of the story? Yoshi P has now drawn the line in the sand. If you can't read your tooltips and preform at a decent level, you won't get help.

You get the boot.

Difference in Gameplay.

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Good, ideally someone like that shouldn't have even been able to make it to 74 -- much less make a party suffer at 74. Let them rot at 70.

It's sort of funny that this topic has basically turned into a thread that basically proves YoshiPs point. Funny in a sad way, that is.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

It's sort of funny that this topic has basically turned into a thread that basically proves YoshiPs point. Funny in a sad way, that is.

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actually it shows that the toxic casual anti-parsing crew constantly get appeased, without realizing this "Win" is ultimately only your loss.

From my perspective, someone who cares about success; it just means I'll be vote kicking or removing people from party for 'no reason.' I still get my clear. I'll find someone else to fill that spot that plays at an appropriate level, and you don't get to know why anymore.

All in all; the people 'Celebrating' this are the only ones that suffer. Just FYI since you seemed to have missed that.

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Originally Posted by AcaciaTyrannia

actually it shows that the toxic casual anti-parsing crew constantly get appeased, without realizing this "Win" is ultimately only your loss.

From my perspective, someone who cares about success; it just means I'll be vote kicking or removing people from party for 'no reason.' I still get my clear. I'll find someone else to fill that spot that plays at an appropriate level, and you don't get to know why anymore.

All in all; the people 'Celebrating' this are the only ones that suffer. Just FYI since you seemed to have missed that.

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To be fair, considering the status quo hasn't changed, I don't think anyone would suffer overall. People kick for all sorts of reasons nowadays too. Everyone can still get their clear one way or another.

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Originally Posted by linay

To be fair, considering the status quo hasn't changed, I don't think anyone would suffer overall. People kick for all sorts of reasons nowadays too. Everyone can still get their clear one way or another.

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Well yes, that is true. The status Quo is that if you are playing poorly, you will be kicked or removed. The only difference is that now, more experienced players are not going to risk account action for trying to help you.

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Originally Posted by AcaciaTyrannia

The only difference is that now, more experienced players are not going to risk account action for trying to help you.

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I mean, that risk has always been there. Parser has never been allowed, so the status quo not changing applies here too. People who want to help can and will find ways to help.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

It's the whole "guns don't kill, people do" sort of argument, which is being compared to "parsers aren't toxic, people are".

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I never read more stupid comment

The Guns are made to kill, same as grenade
( those You could name as tools of war )

Thousands of people die in car ancients
( those are tools of transports )

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Originally Posted by AcaciaTyrannia

**edit** Uh.. not that any one of us were using a parser.. We were using our woman's intuition. -nods-

I have encountered a lot of Toxic Casuals in this game. Granted, I've played since early access in 101.

I have every single job leveled to at least 70, and most to 80. Not to say i'm an expert at everything, but I'm the kind of player who can help just about anyone play just about anything at an average level. When I see a player who is under preforming, it's my desire to help. I had a black mage at level 74 earlier today that didn't know what Freeze was or how it fit into his AoE rotation. It got so bad that the astrologian was running out of mana trying to heal the tank and the tank was running out of cooldowns. We ALL mentioned something and the black mage kept saying "HOW DO YOU KNOW MY DAMAAGE IS BAD HMMM?" He was fishing for someone to admit they were parsing. Rather than take the criticism and improve, he choose to instead try to bait one of us 3 random people into admitting something we'd be punished for.

So we just kicked him. We got a new DPS, and the dungeon went smoothly after that. Moral of the story? Yoshi P has now drawn the line in the sand. If you can't read your tooltips and preform at a decent level, you won't get help.

You get the boot.

Difference in Gameplay.

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You did a great service for the community. Thank you. Hopefully this will prompt that player to improve and not be a detriment to the hundreds of players he'll meet in the future.

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Originally Posted by AcaciaTyrannia

actually it shows that the toxic casual anti-parsing crew constantly get appeased, without realizing this "Win" is ultimately only your loss.

From my perspective, someone who cares about success; it just means I'll be vote kicking or removing people from party for 'no reason.' I still get my clear. I'll find someone else to fill that spot that plays at an appropriate level, and you don't get to know why anymore.

All in all; the people 'Celebrating' this are the only ones that suffer. Just FYI since you seemed to have missed that.

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I normally don't make posts like this and like to offer my own thoughts on the matter, but...

THIS