SE, the concept of "Limited Jobs" is a really bad idea, turn back now

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Originally Posted by Kusanagi7

i havent unlocked this yet what are the weekly rewards from the carnival?

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Allied Seals and Poetics. The amount scales with the difficulty of the 3 weekly challenges.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Actually it would be that bad because of how it'd have to be coded. If it was any other job with a linear progression path for spells and abilities, then it'd be doable. It's because of that whole "going out and learning spells" feature works on a mechanical level that is what really bars Blue Mage from DF content, and the only way they can get that DF wish is if they undo all of it and make it a linear progression job like all the others.

On top of that, there's also the player group factor. "Oh, you don't have the spell X? *Vote kick*". Smart programmers know to prep for the worst from their users, which is why that's the main argument that's been publicly provided in regard to the matter.

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Except for the fact that, they're gated from certain quests by not having certain skills, something they could just implement for dungeons.

or the fact that tanks that have not done their job quests and lack certain skills is still a very prevalent and very bad problem. The issue is that for all the fuss they claim learning is, it's really not that much different than normal level progression because a lot of the skills save for a handful are very cookie cutter and indistinct from one another, yet you still end up with something of a rotation at level 50. If each skill was unique and provided a unique needed spell that MADE Blue mage as a job work, then that argument would have weight, but honestly even if a Blue Mage was missing maybe 10 spells it wouldn't make much of a difference as long as they have well.

The good spells (Song of torment, 1000, off guard) so in that way it's really no different from a tank missing shield lob in retrospect. The majority of blue mage's spells are filler.

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

Except for the fact that, they're gated from certain quests by not having certain skills, something they could just implement for dungeons.

or the fact that tanks that have not done their job quests and lack certain skills is still a very prevalent and very bad problem. The issue is that for all the fuss they claim learning is, it's really not that much different than normal level progression because a lot of the skills save for a handful are very cookie cutter and indistinct from one another, yet you still end up with something of a rotation at level 50. If each skill was unique and provided a unique needed spell that MADE Blue mage as a job work, then that argument would have weight, but honestly even if a Blue Mage was missing maybe 10 spells it wouldn't make much of a difference as long as they have well.

The good spells (Song of torment, 1000, off guard) so in that way it's really no different from a tank missing shield lob in retrospect. The majority of blue mage's spells are filler.

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I don't understand why people are so against job quests requiring certain skills considering you do job quests for gear + skills. That's been a staple since ARR

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Originally Posted by GenericMagus

I don't understand why people are so against job quests requiring certain skills considering you do job quests for gear + skills. That's been a staple since ARR

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In practice, given only 49 spells or so, there's nothing wrong with it. But the staple forgives or hides other shortcomings where one would expect a job like BLU to be especially fleshed out -- natural verticality, large arsenals, and choice of progression paths, for instance.

Since BLU has already mostly failed in each of those respects, it now comes down to kicking out the last vestige of what was vaguely promised vs. an easier time of preparing BLU for endgame, which is similarly irrelevant, seeing as it's not remotely capable and is not likely ever to be.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

In practice, given only 49 spells or so, there's nothing wrong with it. But the staple forgives or hides other shortcomings where one would expect a job like BLU to be especially fleshed out -- natural verticality, large arsenals, and choice of progression paths, for instance.

Since BLU has already mostly failed in each of those respects, it now comes down to kicking out the last vestige of what was vaguely promised vs. an easier time of preparing BLU for endgame, which is similarly irrelevant, seeing as it's not remotely capable and is not likely ever to be.

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BLU is fully capable of being able to do endgame content, the only Limitation of BLU is SE themselves. I mean, if those spells are the carbon copy fillers, I hate to see what the rest look like. Perhaps if it was meant for endgame we'll see far greater variety and applications and less generic and skills that'll actually make a difference.

Remember SEs excuse of BLU being too OP and casting Level 5 Death to kill bosses? Well those bosses are immune to all the broken stuff. It's SEs fault, not the fault of BLU.

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Originally Posted by GenericMagus

BLU is fully capable of being able to do endgame content, the only Limitation of BLU is SE themselves. I mean, if those spells are the carbon copy fillers, I hate to see what the rest look like. Perhaps if it was meant for endgame we'll see far greater variety and applications and less generic and skills that'll actually make a difference.

Remember SEs excuse of BLU being too OP and casting Level 5 Death to kill bosses? Well those bosses are immune to all the broken stuff. It's SEs fault, not the fault of BLU.

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Never said it was any fault of the concept. I've said quite the opposite very, very frequently. But that doesn't change its position for the present, nor, therefore, its prospects presently reachable.

There are "only" three things BLU needs to be a job with both full identity and functionality:
1. Relatively accurate and precise means of checking for readiness for a given role for matchmaking. This makes BLU as able to queue for any particular role as they are able.
2. Caster-target-stat-interaction-calculated granular status effects, aka "debuff damage". This allows for status effects to be used on any target in a balanced manner.
3. A builder-spender system of varying specificity (e.g. a tailored job gauge system). This allows for internal balance between all skills, in turn allowing for multiple builds even within and around the particular utilities, debuffs, and/or builder/spender timings most useful for a given fight.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

There are "only" three things BLU needs to be a job with both full identity and functionality:
1. Relatively accurate and precise means of checking for readiness for a given role for matchmaking. This makes BLU as able to queue for any particular role as they are able.
2. Caster-target-stat-interaction-calculated granular status effects, aka "debuff damage". This allows for status effects to be used on any target in a balanced manner.
3. A builder-spender system of varying specificity (e.g. a tailored job gauge system). This allows for internal balance between all skills, in turn allowing for multiple builds even within and around the particular utilities, debuffs, and/or builder/spender timings most useful for a given fight.

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You forgot the 1 Year normal Job developement time and resources.

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Originally Posted by Laphael

You forgot the 1 Year normal Job developement time and resources.

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I've not forgotten it. Nor that issues 1 and 2, being things that can give precedent to undermechanics improvements, will be buried as forever "technologically impossible" until they were always possible and just needed a few more patches' time (past 8.2).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I've not forgotten it. Nor that issues 1 and 2, being things that can give precedent to undermechanics improvements, will be buried as forever "technologically impossible" until they were always possible and just needed a few more patches' time (past 8.2).

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You would really rather have no limited Bluemage now for the slim possibility to get it in around 6 years as a normal job?
Or did I understand you wrong? (language barrier maybe?)

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Originally Posted by Laphael

You would really rather have no limited Bluemage now for the slim possibility to get it in around 6 years as a normal job?
Or did I understand you wrong? (language barrier maybe?)

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Yes, actually. That would be ideal.

It's a pretty bad excuse to constantly bring up budget/resources/time for one of the biggest gaming companies in the world that not only publishes tons of games but makes them as well inter-house. Surely they can have a bigger budget unless it's all going down the drain for serious mis-management. I mean, is it wrong to ask them to actually deliver on whats promised? Considering how Eureka has turned out, alongside corner cutting of dungeons and a feeling of stretching out content to have a shelf life. SE isn't a small indie company, they release the content, the excuse of "sorry we didn't finish it" is still ripe for critique, it's not an excuse.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Never said it was any fault of the concept. I've said quite the opposite very, very frequently. But that doesn't change its position for the present, nor, therefore, its prospects presently reachable.

There are "only" three things BLU needs to be a job with both full identity and functionality:
1. Relatively accurate and precise means of checking for readiness for a given role for matchmaking. This makes BLU as able to queue for any particular role as they are able.
2. Caster-target-stat-interaction-calculated granular status effects, aka "debuff damage". This allows for status effects to be used on any target in a balanced manner.
3. A builder-spender system of varying specificity (e.g. a tailored job gauge system). This allows for internal balance between all skills, in turn allowing for multiple builds even within and around the particular utilities, debuffs, and/or builder/spender timings most useful for a given fight.

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1. This isn't an issue just for BLU. I can queue up as a class without their jobstone. Am I ready and able to complete the content? You can tie it to the job quests, where you learn skills and as you progress more and more content opens up which you can do.

But even then, full jobs can still afk 1-2 button presses only with penalization, good thing they have all those skills they'll never use.

2. That's asking for a rework of the battle system at its most, to simply a lazy fix of just slapping on a status effect that still procs the damage without the status effect itself being resisted so not stuck with 130 potency moves (though I do think this is a more interesting idea as it changes BLU to more of a priority based gameplay, but then again, if you need then CC but its tied to the damage which SB wanted to sort out).

3. What will the gauge do? Is it a gauge for a gauge sake? I can see an interesting usage of it though incorporating the skillchain mechanic of FFXI as you cycle through the elemental wheel, and the more you follow it the more your gauge gets full allowing you to dump for special abilities.

You know what's a bad idea? Mahjong... but it's here to stay. Just sayin'.

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Originally Posted by Laphael

You would really rather have no limited Bluemage now for the slim possibility to get it in around 6 years as a normal job?
Or did I understand you wrong? (language barrier maybe?)

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Not quite. I'd rather get it as a job with full identity and functionality, precisely as I stated just above. But yes, better to have something worthwhile later than nothing worthwhile ever, which, to my tastes, is what we've been given thus far and will remain with by virtue of that "gift".

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Originally Posted by GenericMagus

It's a pretty bad excuse to constantly bring up budget/resources/time for one of the biggest gaming companies in the world that not only publishes tons of games but makes them as well inter-house. Surely they can have a bigger budget unless it's all going down the drain for serious mis-management. I mean, is it wrong to ask them to actually deliver on whats promised? Considering how Eureka has turned out, alongside corner cutting of dungeons and a feeling of stretching out content to have a shelf life. SE isn't a small indie company, they release the content, the excuse of "sorry we didn't finish it" is still ripe for critique, it's not an excuse.

1. This isn't an issue just for BLU. I can queue up as a class without their jobstone. Am I ready and able to complete the content? You can tie it to the job quests, where you learn skills and as you progress more and more content opens up which you can do.

But even then, full jobs can still afk 1-2 button presses only with penalization, good thing they have all those skills they'll never use.

2. That's asking for a rework of the battle system at its most, to simply a lazy fix of just slapping on a status effect that still procs the damage without the status effect itself being resisted so not stuck with 130 potency moves (though I do think this is a more interesting idea as it changes BLU to more of a priority based gameplay, but then again, if you need then CC but its tied to the damage which SB wanted to sort out).

3. What will the gauge do? Is it a gauge for a gauge sake? I can see an interesting usage of it though incorporating the skillchain mechanic of FFXI as you cycle through the elemental wheel, and the more you follow it the more your gauge gets full allowing you to dump for special abilities.

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You've managed to insert warrants I've never stated, with at best dubious and stretched connections to any determinable general conclusion that might be made from my words, in most replies I've made to you thus far, so let me be very clear.

1. I've never said that the first issue belonged uniquely to BLU. I merely stated that BLU is uniquely limited by the lack of it. Its toolkit is multi-role with player-chosen capacities towards healing, tanking, and pure damage-dealing; it cannot meet its own capacities unless matchmaking can more accurately determine readiness. I can sketch out exact means by which to produce this effect if you need.

2. It is indeed asking for a rework of one element, currently little more than a memory outside of specific fights' gimmicks, of the battle system. I've never stated otherwise, nor that BLU alone would benefit from the change. However, as BLU's identity is largely based in status effects, it is impossible to allow BLU both full identity and functionality without allowing for balanced use of status effects. This change should occur with or without the existence of BLU, but for BLU to wholly exist, it must.

3. The only way to balance skills without making them all basically the same is to vary accessibility. This can be done in two ways: sequence and/or relative frequency. The second, in turn can be accomplished through cooldowns or by spending generated resources. For the sake of flexibility and immersion, I'd suggest the latter.

You abilities which hit the strongest in a single GCD are used the least frequently, in the same way that Verflare or Foul or Hissatsu: Guren may be the highest base potencies of their arsenals, but are far from the lead contributors of damage. Their contribution is however much more efficiently they use the 1 in n GCDs or 50 gauge per 2 minutes, etc., over other choices, and what their position in their consequent rotations entail for what surrounds them. None of them work without setup, be it through a gauge, as per Hissatsu: Guren, a timer, as per Foul, or sequenced abilities in turn dependent on gauge, as per Verflare.

What I'd suggest for BLU is a 6-sided gauge of sorts. (However, rather than arbitrating particular skillchain/magic_burst opportunities, I'd recommend simply that skills be permitted multiple aspects. All that follows from the interactions between BLU skills and their respective aspects should naturally follow from the mechanics of each individual aspect, present from the start. That, however, would also be a game-wide system and is out of scope for now.)

To oversimplify, you build in order to spend on other builders in order to spend on other builders to spend on final spenders. The gameplay is in how you can get from A to Z such that the time each step arrives is closest to when you need them or the compromises between them produce the best results.

Let's say I want to build a chancey Tail Screw build for solo speedrunning old content, synced (let's assume the desired rewards are now only available if synced, from time-based bonus rewards either scaled inversely with party size or that would have to be rolled on between all party members, such that there's reason to gamble on a chance ability). The lower the target's HP and -- especially -- the higher my Water-Compression resource (resistance to each mostly negligible outside of Masked Carnival), the more likely it is to succeed, so my plan is to cast it once I have the resource maxed, whatever %HP that ends up. But, I have to survive for that long, which in this case will mean killing high-dps adds, defending against tankbusters, and the like.

Moving backwards from the desired result, which uses Water-Compression, how can I most quickly generate these resources while removing as much extraneous spending as possible or having to participate in indirect contributors like healing or mitigation? That line of reasoning will be the basis for any BLU DPS-centric build.

Can I make use of non-damaging skills in order to reduce extraneous GCDs down the line? Can Sticky Tongue double both as a draw-to and draw-in by using it on mobs immune and not immune to its effect, respectively? Should I focus first on Dark skills and take Spectre's Sadism so that when I avoid damage using Loom, I gain Distortion greater than the Dark resource I spent on it? Should I work towards tranformation skills so that I can cast Physical-aspected skills on the move, at increased STR/DEX/VIT and/or new MND/INT/PIE contributions based on my form and elements, or stick with turret-casting? Can I fit in my favorite animation, Gobbie Punch/Rush/Blitz into this somehow in order to increase the damage of other whirl- or whorl-based skills through added Earth/Scission/Fragmentation, in case I need to consume resource early to kill an add while reducing the boss's chance breakpoint (AoE)?

For builds not centered on damage-dealing, but instead on indirect contribution methods such as mitigation or healing, one simply looks for how they can best source the resources they need for their healing or mitigation tools, best make use of the waste -- if any -- and best make use of whatever the mitigation and healing in turn source -- again, if anything.

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Originally Posted by K3KW4RCHILD

You know what's a bad idea? Mahjong... but it's here to stay. Just sayin'.

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That was only a bad idea because they added that and not blitzball because they were afraid everyone would say forget euro,end game im blitzball champion

@ GenericMagus, a good portion of the money from our subs goes to SE other projects. This has been a known fact for years and the money that is made in the mog shop for vanity stuff gets re-injected back in there.
It is to pay the artists and create other items. I think Stormblood budget was bigger then that of Heavansward if i recall but..
I guess we shall see how the budget of Shadowbringers turns out, hopefully more money is injected.

As for more limited jobs, it could work and i do think it is needed but i would rather it be done to jobs that are not what the masses want as actual jobs.

This deserves to be kicked back up into the limelight because it's unequivocally true. They might not make Blue Mage anything more than an elaborate mini-game, but displeasure at the idea of this happening to other classes is important.

I love the idea of limited jobs, and would like to see the concept expanded further with more limited jobs and minigames tired to those jobs.

It's a great concept to keep players that don't want to contribute to a party out of battle content (further enhanced by the trust system in shb) and it's something other than roulettes and gold saucer for the most casual players.

I don't have a problem with the concept.

Now, if I were a big fan of BLU, then maybe this would miff me. But I'm all for SE experimenting with other forms of content. And honestly, jobs they pick for limited jobs...are probably jobs they were unlikely to ever add as normal jobs. If Yoshi P thought they might add blue mage in 6.0 for example I don't think they would have added it as a limited job. Same with beastmaster if that ends up as the next limited job.

I also wouldn't be shocked if they stopped adding 2 new jobs per expansion. I could honestly see it slowing down to one new full job in 6.0. Because every new job adds overhead in future expansions. They all need new weapon models, new job quests, new artifact gear, new spells and animations, and they all have to be balanced. So I expect eventually two jobs per expansion will dwindle to 1, further cutting down the chances of jobs like blue mage or beastmaster anyway.

If it's 'get this job as a limited job side content or never at all' I'd easily take the former. The game needs more side content outside of the endgame loot treadmill, and this is a system that could be fun to see expanded on in the future with more limited job specific duties liked the masked carnival.

I hope the limited job idea dies with Blue Mage. I realy hope they stay away from Beastmaster, devil be gone, do not touch this class. XD

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I don't have a problem with the concept.

Now, if I were a big fan of BLU, then maybe this would miff me. But I'm all for SE experimenting with other forms of content. And honestly, jobs they pick for limited jobs...are probably jobs they were unlikely to ever add as normal jobs. If Yoshi P thought they might add blue mage in 6.0 for example I don't think they would have added it as a limited job. Same with beastmaster if that ends up as the next limited job.

I also wouldn't be shocked if they stopped adding 2 new jobs per expansion. I could honestly see it slowing down to one new full job in 6.0. Because every new job adds overhead in future expansions. They all need new weapon models, new job quests, new artifact gear, new spells and animations, and they all have to be balanced. So I expect eventually two jobs per expansion will dwindle to 1, further cutting down the chances of jobs like blue mage or beastmaster anyway.

If it's 'get this job as a limited job side content or never at all' I'd easily take the former. The game needs more side content outside of the endgame loot treadmill, and this is a system that could be fun to see expanded on in the future with more limited job specific duties liked the masked carnival.

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That is how I see the limited job system. Thank you for describing it better than I ever could. I don't think the idea of jobs as content is inherently bad. It comes down to execution.
When I look at niche jobs like PUP, BST, BLU, Orator, Mime, Arithmetician and so many others, you get the impression that these jobs would never even be considered of being added to XIV without this concept. And I know that people get attached to BLU thanks in large parts to XI, Tactics, etc, but I think that having it in whatever form (and as much requested side content to boot) is better than people constantly requesting it after every expansion and the devs going, "We're thinking about it."

I haven't really thought about the balancing and cost issues down the line, but it could very well be how things will eventually go. That makes the idea of limited jobs that much more interesting, since it's not a tool do the content like the standard jobs, but rather more like content in of itself. If they can develop and expand the system slowly like they with other side content such as the Gold Saucer, I think we'll have a very reliable and consistent form of side content in these jobs. At least, that's what I'm hoping.

my final solution to the blue mage question:

add a true blue mage that works just like a normal job. have 1 job quest per level to get all the skills.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

I love the idea of limited jobs, and would like to see the concept expanded further with more limited jobs and minigames tired to those jobs.

It's a great concept to keep players that don't want to contribute to a party out of battle content (further enhanced by the trust system in shb) and it's something other than roulettes and gold saucer for the most casual players.

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My qualm with this line of thought, is every time I go into Masked Carnivale, I think back to Kingdom Hearts and the Colosseum side content (Later in FFXIII-2 also) which is arguably some of the best side-content for a game.

With my immediate thought being... "Why couldn't this be something that ANY job can do as side content?"

Like, imagine how much fun it could be to have a Colosseum side content (Which we have precedent for with the Coliseum in Ul'dah which currently is only used for PLD quests) where you get to fight bunches of different enemies, including multiples of (Less powerful) bosses. Like fighting 2 Ifrits. Maybe fighting Susano and Titan at the same time.

Since, I personally fail to see the exact reason why such side content, must be relegated to dedicated "Limited Jobs" instead of being available to ANY job? I mean, you can't even argue that it's because of how "OP" the Limited Jobs are (Supposed to be) due to the fact that in order to make it fun, it'd have to be balanced to their power level anyway (Hence why most things in the Carnivale are immune to insta-kill spells)...

In addition, there's also my inability to see why, if such content HAS to be relegated to a specific job... Why said job needs to be "Limited" in order to have that content? Since again, the content will be balanced around their power level irregardless of if they're "Limited" or not. So, what's the major difference between it being balanced around an "OP" Limited job and being balanced around a normal job variant of the class aside from one inherently removes potential content from people who aren't "The most casual players" (With the other not actually removing content from these players)

Like, a non-"Limited Job" BLU could still have Masked Carnivale. It could still have the ability to go around the overworld and learn cool new spells from monsters. It could still do all the same things that the current "Limited Job" version could do. Only, it would also be able to be played by other people who want to do other things with it too, it could be used by all players (Casual included) to do MSQ's. It could be used by raiders to raid. It could be used by all players (Casuals included) to do roulettes. It could be used by all players (Casuals included) to do Exploratory Missions.

This is what I don't fully understand. No-one has yet to present a compelling argument about why a "Limited Job" system is beneficial in any way. The best I've seen is about development time in regards to "Balancing", but that needs to be done anyway for the unique content they get used in because otherwise stuff like Masked Carnivale wouldn't be very interesting at all (For example, it's already markedly less interesting because of Final Sting/Self Detonation cheese, imagine if Doom/Tail Screw would work, or if things like Ram's Voice > Dragon's Voice combo was dealing "OP" levels of damage to everything in there)

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Originally Posted by Kalise

This is what I don't fully understand. No-one has yet to present a compelling argument about why a "Limited Job" system is beneficial in any way. The best I've seen is about development time in regards to "Balancing", but that needs to be done anyway for the unique content they get used in because otherwise stuff like Masked Carnivale wouldn't be very interesting at all (For example, it's already markedly less interesting because of Final Sting/Self Detonation cheese, imagine if Doom/Tail Screw would work, or if things like Ram's Voice > Dragon's Voice combo was dealing "OP" levels of damage to everything in there)

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Your "only" argument is a quite big one. Yoshi said a normal job needs 1 year of developement time of a whole team, while only 1 person worked on blue mage on the side. That is an immense difference in ressources.

A second argument is the freedom they can have with limited jobs. In my opinion, they have been too careful with Blue-spells; they should have made it more overpowered overall, but Blue mage is basically still in Beta, capped to 50.

I fear, they will get demotivated to try new things with all the ppl complaining and that would be really sad.

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Originally Posted by Laphael

Your "only" argument is a quite big one. Yoshi said a normal job needs 1 year of developement time of a whole team, while only 1 person worked on blue mage on the side. That is an immense difference in ressources.

A second argument is the freedom they can have with limited jobs. In my opinion, they have been too careful with Blue-spells; they should have made it more overpowered overall, but Blue mage is basically still in Beta, capped to 50.

I fear, they will get demotivated to try new things with all the ppl complaining and that would be really sad.

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The thing is, if they made it more overpowered... Then they'd still have to balance it for Masked Carnivale (Or other content they decide to make specifically for "Limited Jobs" to justify their existence)

Also, Yoshi mentioned he said to the development team that they could have more freedom with designing BLU spells, which suggests that at some point, more than 1 person was/is working on the job.

Then, with all of this as is, be it the fruits of a single person only or with the assistance (Even partially) of a team, what they ended up with is... A more or less balanced job with only a select few skills that present a problem balance-wise (Which are easily resolved with very minor changes).

Yes. Development time is a major constraint on BLU as a non-limited job. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Since, I personally fail to see the exact reason why such side content, must be relegated to dedicated "Limited Jobs" instead of being available to ANY job? I mean, you can't even argue that it's because of how "OP" the Limited Jobs are (Supposed to be) due to the fact that in order to make it fun, it'd have to be balanced to their power level anyway (Hence why most things in the Carnivale are immune to insta-kill spells)...

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The thing about the Masked Carnival is that lore wise it's not even really limited to BLU. It's how we ended up in it but it's basically a display of strength and magicks for entertainment in the coliseum. Anyone with a GLA should be able to partake in stuff like that since that's what GLA is all about. And you want me to believe people wouldn't pay their weight in gold to see long lost ancient spells and skills, revived for their viewing pleasure? They don't even need to admit it's Black Magic, I'm sure the charletans in Ul'dah can come up with something else entirely, maybe even excuse it as part of Blue Magic and hand-wave all accusations away under that. Because adventurers as skilled and well traveled as us probably met a baddie at one time or another that knew a spell like that.

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Like, a non-"Limited Job" BLU could still have Masked Carnivale. It could still have the ability to go around the overworld and learn cool new spells from monsters. It could still do all the same things that the current "Limited Job" version could do. Only, it would also be able to be played by other people who want to do other things with it too, it could be used by all players (Casual included) to do MSQ's. It could be used by raiders to raid. It could be used by all players (Casuals included) to do roulettes. It could be used by all players (Casuals included) to do Exploratory Missions.

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Yeah that's what's been brought up since BLU's reveal - you don't have to lock BLU out of content in order to give it all this side content. And the devs themselves already lock BLU out of its own content based on skills it learned or hasn't learned, why can't they do something like that to regular content?

People really need to stop giving the "limited resources" argument. SE is a multi-million dollar company that has been in the gaming industry for decades. 14 is one of their most profitable games EVER. They are not some ragtag team of indie devs looking to break into the market with a few thousand bucks and a dream.

From this first, and hopefully only, demonstration of what a limited job would be, there is really no justification for excluding the job from content.

BLU as it is not can't just be thrown into high end content.

They could have designed BLU as a normal job, but considering they just added red mage in SB I don't think a fourth casting dps is high on their priority right now.

To allow BLU into end game content, they have to balance it. To balance it, they have to make it more like other jobs to a degree. They have to give it an actual rotation. They need to give it an array of weapon options. They'll need to balance it around having all of its tools available which means getting all those spells becomes mandatory and not a side content game where you can just go after what you want.

There is a theoretical version of blue mage the COULD have made, that could have been a single role job with a bit of utility and fit into the same mold as other jobs. But that isn't the BLU they made, and I think trying to shove THIS version of blu into endgame content wouldn't work out very well. They would have to basically redesign BLU as a regular job if they're going to let it into the end game. And I don't think they're going to do that.

SE is a big company yes. But FFXIV still has a finite budget and dev team, and even if they wanted to start pumping more money into the game it would take time and money to train new developers, throwing more money at a project like this is not a quick fix. WoW tried that with WOD and look how that ended up for example.

SE isnt' some small idie studio. But being a larger coproration also means it has its fingers it a lot more pots and FFXIV isn't its only ongoing project. Would i like to see FFXIV get more resources? Sure, but that doesn't mean the suits at the top are going to deem that the best investment of their resources.

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Originally Posted by Auryan

That is how I see the limited job system. Thank you for describing it better than I ever could. I don't think the idea of jobs as content is inherently bad. It comes down to execution.
When I look at niche jobs like PUP, BST, BLU, Orator, Mime, Arithmetician and so many others, you get the impression that these jobs would never even be considered of being added to XIV without this concept. And I know that people get attached to BLU thanks in large parts to XI, Tactics, etc, but I think that having it in whatever form (and as much requested side content to boot) is better than people constantly requesting it after every expansion and the devs going, "We're thinking about it."

I haven't really thought about the balancing and cost issues down the line, but it could very well be how things will eventually go. That makes the idea of limited jobs that much more interesting, since it's not a tool do the content like the standard jobs, but rather more like content in of itself. If they can develop and expand the system slowly like they with other side content such as the Gold Saucer, I think we'll have a very reliable and consistent form of side content in these jobs. At least, that's what I'm hoping.

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The issue we'll have with this is what happens when they release new limited jobs. We've been lead to believe that BLU is budget content made by a small amount of the team, so if they commit time to more limited jobs, what happens to BLU? If BST is released, will they get their own carnival or will they have to do the BLU one, if they they have to do the BLU one, so much for BLU being a unique thing. What about a third job PUP? In a world where new limited jobs get the same attention BLU got and BLU keeps being updated as well, the more it takes away from the excuse why they weren't implemented in the first place as regular jobs due to lack of resources, as it would become a resource drain to maintain all these jobs. If they add more limited jobs, and the old jobs get less content, or get straight up dropped, then the content would have been a hollow excuse for content and would personally kill any enjoyment for these jobs.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

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Oh its this argument again, Quickfire:

-Just like how there are 4 melee dps? I'm sure we didn't NEED another one of those before they added SAM
-BLU does have a rotation, you just need to go out and learn it, and its as interesting of a level 50 rotation as the other classes.
-The game already has a system in place checking what skills you know, having BLU learn spells in the overworld or in the "limited job" space could have allowed for an unlock of duty finder
-They just added the Aetheryte Earrings as an example of scaling equipment, the BLU weapon from level 1-60 could have been scaled like the earrings, then past that point have new weapons for BLU, and the design of the weapons would be easy too, like how DRK weapons were just bigger pld swords for the most part, BLU weapons could just be halfsize blm staffs.
-BLU's balance is already really solid as a level 50 dps. Its personal DPS isn't too high, and the only truly unbalanced things it has is the Ability to kill itself (which some idiots would do a lot), Peculiar light being 30%, slightly overtuned there, and white wind, maybe, theres been a lot of discussion on the BLU threads as to the usefullness of this skill, and I don't want to rehash it here. BLUs design as a support magic dps is already solid and would fit in well into the endgame imo if they just tidied up its single target spells, and made a preset list you must use for raids: See Duty Set Idea Here

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Originally Posted by Oreos

People really need to stop giving the "limited resources" argument. SE is a multi-million dollar company that has been in the gaming industry for decades. 14 is one of their most profitable games EVER. They are not some ragtag team of indie devs looking to break into the market with a few thousand bucks and a dream.

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Though, to be fair, it is a legitimate argument.

Since, while SE is a large business and FFXIV is very profitable... SE doesn't actually reinvest the majority of the money made by XIV back into the game, instead preferring to use it on other titles instead.

Thus, the XIV team is quite limited in what money and how big a team they have access to. Despite the profitability of the game.

Personally, I'm hoping that if ShB is a success and the playerbase continues to grow, that Yoshida can convince the higher ups that investing more into XIV is worthwhile, to further increase profits (While, letting him and his team make what they want to make as opposed to having to cut lots of corners and disappointing the players when certain things get cut or have limited development *Cough*BLU*Cough*Genderlocks*Cough*)

I agree with OP, the concept of limited jobs is a terrible idea.

Blue Mage worked perfectly in FF11, it literally has the same system as it does in FF14 learn skills/spells from monsters and only a few from levelling. All they would need to do is balance out the job so it fits with the rest of the other jobs and not be too overpowered etc it worked in FF11 why can't they do the same for FF14?

I also have no motivation to lv BLU as is so it needs changing it's also just a waste of time adding anymore limited jobs like it, I rather not see them as I have zero interest in them.

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Originally Posted by ZellosWilder

I agree with OP, the concept of limited jobs is a terrible idea.

Blue Mage worked perfectly in FF11, it literally has the same system as it does in FF14 learn skills/spells from monsters and only a few from levelling. All they would need to do is balance out the job so it fits with the rest of the other jobs and not be too overpowered etc it worked in FF11 why can't they do the same for FF14?

I also have no motivation to lv BLU as is so it needs changing it's also just a waste of time adding anymore limited jobs like it, I rather not see them as I have zero interest in them.

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11 is fundamentally a different design than 14. The type of ways blue messes with the 14s paradigms, would not be a problem in 11


1)14 expects all skills/abilities/powers of a job to come from leveling, and you can reasl\onably expect that most people of a certain level have the same tools. This is not the case in FF11 which had a much more varied system. Summoners, blue mages, Beastmasters had widely different skills sets based on what the player unlocked.


2)14 has an extremely narrow job system where every job breaks down in to tank/dps/healer. Which is pretty enforced. 11 has tons of hybrids, and jobs that can vary greatly based on equipment. I could tank on monk with a warrior subjob. Summoners would heal with whm subjobs. Beastmaster played alone. Ninja was dps or tank depending on how it geared.


3) Overall 11 had less rules, and less expectations for a party, you could play with 4 people, or 6 people. you could have millions in gear at level 25, or have junk. This game is way more regimented, and thats why limited jobs are probably needed if you want to have anything that is even slightly outside the box.




Fact is blue mage could only exist in FFXIV by not being blue mage. It would have to give up player hunted skills (the core of blue mage) versatility (common trait of blue mage) and most of its iconic skills (signature of blue mage)


Its not that these things are impossible to put in FFXIV world, but rather they do not fit into their overall streamlined design of what a job is, and whats its purpose is. In FFXIV jobs are designed to be DPS Healer or TANK specifically in instanced content, with most balance/game design focused on 4 man and 8 man parties. Thats it, its a very small box.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Fact is blue mage could only exist in FFXIV by not being blue mage. It would have to give up player hunted skills (the core of blue mage) versatility (common trait of blue mage) and most of its iconic skills (signature of blue mage)


Its not that these things are impossible to put in FFXIV world, but rather they do not fit into their overall streamlined design of what a job is, and whats its purpose is. In FFXIV jobs are designed to be DPS Healer or TANK specifically in instanced content, with most balance/game design focused on 4 man and 8 man parties. Thats it, its a very small box.

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Not disagreeing that straight up porting FFXI's into FFXIV would work in multiplayer without lots and lots of bumps but.. it is not a fact that Blue mage can only exist in FFXIV by not being a Blue Mage.

Learning spells does not need to dismiss Blue Mage from being part of group content. Versatility is not exclusive to Blue Mage in any of the series Blue Mage has existed, being weird is more their trait than versatility. Only because of FFXI do we think about slotting skills in and out. In any game that Blue Mage existed with lots of spells so did other jobs.

Lots of spells != blue mage exclusive idea. Pretty much all jobs share this in any game that comes with jobs.
Lots of options != blue mage exclusive idea. Pretty much all jobs share this in any game that comes with jobs. Although Blue Mage tends to be a bit more inconsistent (like summoner), if you consider that a feature lol. But in terms of options there are a lot of jobs and cases where other non-blue mages come with a truck load of tools.
Learning from monsters = blue mage.

Iconic spells probably being the hardest thing to make work, but is something true for all of our jobs. I believe SE could just make clever changes to the concept that keeps them similar still, like they do already. Some quick not so clever examples: Death could perhaps be on a Hallowed Ground cooldown, that straight up kills a 50% hp monster or deals extreme potency damage to a boss. Petrify could be a type of stun on trash that doesn't cause stun resistance and applies fragility on all targets including bosses (increases damage slightly, can also combo into another spell that uses fragility debuff).

In that I think either our current jobs can't be considered true to their nature, like Paladin, White Mage, Black Mage, Etc, or that Blue Mage could be Blue Mage and also be in Duty Finder content. Of course imo I'm for the later, I do think Paladin is Paladin and White Mage is White Mage (even though they don't have X OP spell or Y OP spell behaving exactly the same).

On top of the idea that the only core part of blue mage is collecting abilities (but not how many) most people's ideas here simple to complex have all kept that limited side of Blue Mage intact (and kept an eye on balance for the DF so it isn't utter madness, like FFXI straight port would probably be). There are differences in level of control SE would have with each idea but I've read a lot of these threads and most of them include ways for SE to have strong control over balance (so it isn't impossible to keep Blue Mage in check).

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Originally Posted by ZellosWilder

Blue Mage worked perfectly in FF11, it literally has the same system as it does in FF14 learn skills/spells from monsters and only a few from levelling.

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Why not play it in FF11 then? Not trying to troll, I genuinely mean it. If my favourite job or playstyle was implemented "perfectly" in another game, I'd probably play that game.

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Originally Posted by K3KW4RCHILD

You know what's a bad idea? Mahjong... but it's here to stay. Just sayin'.

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Mahjong is still fairly popular and I'd much rather have that over verminion, blitzball or most other things for that matter. In fact if it were up to me that viera money could've easily been invested in more Mahjong. You not enjoying it doesn't make it a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Fact is blue mage could only exist in FFXIV by not being blue mage.

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I disagree.

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Originally Posted by Physic

It would have to give up player hunted skills (the core of blue mage)

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Not necessarily.

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Originally Posted by Physic

versatility (common trait of blue mage)

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Not necessarily.

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Originally Posted by Physic

and most of its iconic skills (signature of blue mage)

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Not at all.

It's very narrow minded to just outright dismiss things that aren't carbon copies of existing jobs in every way.

There are numerous ways to implement BLU into XIV while keeping its identity intact, which have been proposed by numerous people across numerous threads.

BLU hunting skills? Easy. You can still build a proper kit that players are expected to have by using auto-learned skills, skills given by job quests (Either learned during the course of the quest or as a Whalaqee Totem in the reward), skills that gate content (Such as how you Martyn says "Come speak to me when you've learned X skill" when you are doing the current BLU job quests).

With excess skills being ones you manually go and hunt down and aren't necessary for the balance of the job.

Given the myriad of ways that BLU's have learned their skills in previous iterations of the game, it's quite ridiculous to claim that it would be impossible to give people "Core" skills on a platter while leaving the "Hunting" aspect where you go out and find specific mobs (Usually done in previous games for completionist reasons rather than actually needing every skill in the game) as a side content.

Versatility? Only if you are thinking that BLU is only BLU if it can be a Tank/Healer/DPS. Which not all iterations of BLU have been. Many have been supportive damage dealers (Using buffs, debuffs and damaging magics), which fits in alongside BRD/RDM/SMN and likely DNC.

Iconic skills? Most can be easily added to the game (Goblin Punch, Aqua Breath etc) some just need minor alterations (Shockwave Pulsar, Matra Magic and ???? dealing a normal amount of potency. White Wind having a cooldown and/or functioning like Quina's version which is 1/3 max HP which is about the strength of a healers AoE heal currently) while the rest can simply be restricted from use in actual content and left for memeing in unsync'd content (Doom, Missiles, Limit Glove, Roulette, Lvl? Death, Frog Drop) like they pretty much already are (Most bosses being immune to insta-kill effects like Doom, Tail Screw and Missiles)

We've been over this Physic.

They could have done whatever they wanted with BLU and it would have worked precisely because it's a job that could have worked either way. If they made Red Mage fit, they could have done the same for our beloved Blue Mage, full stop.
Identity is a really poor excuse when what defines BLU is only the fact that they get the skills from monsters and use it under variations of magix considered "Blue".
Could have only allowed DPS abilities with the one "iconic" spell on a big CD White Wind, Red Mages are DPS and get Raise and Cure + Dualcast.
Could have been a mage tank if they wanted.

That's how versatile BLU is. And it would have been fine to pick one of the routes and stick with it.

For the "limited jobs" i'll just go with the Miyazaki meme:

"Limited jobs were a mistake"

Limited jobs, I think are okay for that mini game aspect though I believe SE could and should develop Blue Mage into a full job. Keep the limited aspect as an optional mini game. Performance for bard is something I see in the same vein as the limited part of Blue Mage. Perhaps they can develop something like that for the other jobs too.

Just read OP’s thoughts on Page 1. Square Enix doesn’t really care for our opinions very much, honestly I feel they only have a forum so they don’t receive backlash. Idk, they just kind of strike me as a company that just kind of does what it wants, and people buy it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Anesteria

We've been over this Physic.

They could have done whatever they wanted with BLU and it would have worked precisely because it's a job that could have worked either way. If they made Red Mage fit, they could have done the same for our beloved Blue Mage, full stop.
Identity is a really poor excuse when what defines BLU is only the fact that they get the skills from monsters and use it under variations of magix considered "Blue".
Could have only allowed DPS abilities with the one "iconic" spell on a big CD White Wind, Red Mages are DPS and get Raise and Cure + Dualcast.
Could have been a mage tank if they wanted.

That's how versatile BLU is. And it would have been fine to pick one of the routes and stick with it.

For the "limited jobs" i'll just go with the Miyazaki meme:

"Limited jobs were a mistake"

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No don't you see! the fact that blue mage historically can learn it's skills outside of order and outside of leveling means it just outright can't work in XIV! why can't you understand this is how blue mage was MEANT to be in XIV and that there is absolutely no legroom to change that without it being not blue mage!!!!