SE, the concept of "Limited Jobs" is a really bad idea, turn back now

[GenericMagus]

It's a pretty bad excuse to constantly bring up budget/resources/time for one of the biggest gaming companies in the world that not only publishes tons of games but makes them as well inter-house. Surely they can have a bigger budget unless it's all going down the drain for serious mis-management. I mean, is it wrong to ask them to actually deliver on whats promised? Considering how Eureka has turned out, alongside corner cutting of dungeons and a feeling of stretching out content to have a shelf life. SE isn't a small indie company, they release the content, the excuse of "sorry we didn't finish it" is still ripe for critique, it's not an excuse.

Never said it was any fault of the concept. I've said quite the opposite very, very frequently. But that doesn't change its position for the present, nor, therefore, its prospects presently reachable.

There are "only" three things BLU needs to be a job with both full identity and functionality:
1. Relatively accurate and precise means of checking for readiness for a given role for matchmaking. This makes BLU as able to queue for any particular role as they are able.
2. Caster-target-stat-interaction-calculated granular status effects, aka "debuff damage". This allows for status effects to be used on any target in a balanced manner.
3. A builder-spender system of varying specificity (e.g. a tailored job gauge system). This allows for internal balance between all skills, in turn allowing for multiple builds even within and around the particular utilities, debuffs, and/or builder/spender timings most useful for a given fight.

1. This isn't an issue just for BLU. I can queue up as a class without their jobstone. Am I ready and able to complete the content? You can tie it to the job quests, where you learn skills and as you progress more and more content opens up which you can do.

But even then, full jobs can still afk 1-2 button presses only with penalization, good thing they have all those skills they'll never use.

2. That's asking for a rework of the battle system at its most, to simply a lazy fix of just slapping on a status effect that still procs the damage without the status effect itself being resisted so not stuck with 130 potency moves (though I do think this is a more interesting idea as it changes BLU to more of a priority based gameplay, but then again, if you need then CC but its tied to the damage which SB wanted to sort out).

3. What will the gauge do? Is it a gauge for a gauge sake? I can see an interesting usage of it though incorporating the skillchain mechanic of FFXI as you cycle through the elemental wheel, and the more you follow it the more your gauge gets full allowing you to dump for special abilities.

[K3KW4RCHILD]

You know what's a bad idea? Mahjong... but it's here to stay. Just sayin'.

[Shurrikhan]

You would really rather have no limited Bluemage now for the slim possibility to get it in around 6 years as a normal job?
Or did I understand you wrong? (language barrier maybe?)

Not quite. I'd rather get it as a job with full identity and functionality, precisely as I stated just above. But yes, better to have something worthwhile later than nothing worthwhile ever, which, to my tastes, is what we've been given thus far and will remain with by virtue of that "gift".

[Shurrikhan]

It's a pretty bad excuse to constantly bring up budget/resources/time for one of the biggest gaming companies in the world that not only publishes tons of games but makes them as well inter-house. Surely they can have a bigger budget unless it's all going down the drain for serious mis-management. I mean, is it wrong to ask them to actually deliver on whats promised? Considering how Eureka has turned out, alongside corner cutting of dungeons and a feeling of stretching out content to have a shelf life. SE isn't a small indie company, they release the content, the excuse of "sorry we didn't finish it" is still ripe for critique, it's not an excuse.

1. This isn't an issue just for BLU. I can queue up as a class without their jobstone. Am I ready and able to complete the content? You can tie it to the job quests, where you learn skills and as you progress more and more content opens up which you can do.

But even then, full jobs can still afk 1-2 button presses only with penalization, good thing they have all those skills they'll never use.

2. That's asking for a rework of the battle system at its most, to simply a lazy fix of just slapping on a status effect that still procs the damage without the status effect itself being resisted so not stuck with 130 potency moves (though I do think this is a more interesting idea as it changes BLU to more of a priority based gameplay, but then again, if you need then CC but its tied to the damage which SB wanted to sort out).

3. What will the gauge do? Is it a gauge for a gauge sake? I can see an interesting usage of it though incorporating the skillchain mechanic of FFXI as you cycle through the elemental wheel, and the more you follow it the more your gauge gets full allowing you to dump for special abilities.

You've managed to insert warrants I've never stated, with at best dubious and stretched connections to any determinable general conclusion that might be made from my words, in most replies I've made to you thus far, so let me be very clear.

1. I've never said that the first issue belonged uniquely to BLU. I merely stated that BLU is uniquely limited by the lack of it. Its toolkit is multi-role with player-chosen capacities towards healing, tanking, and pure damage-dealing; it cannot meet its own capacities unless matchmaking can more accurately determine readiness. I can sketch out exact means by which to produce this effect if you need.

2. It is indeed asking for a rework of one element, currently little more than a memory outside of specific fights' gimmicks, of the battle system. I've never stated otherwise, nor that BLU alone would benefit from the change. However, as BLU's identity is largely based in status effects, it is impossible to allow BLU both full identity and functionality without allowing for balanced use of status effects. This change should occur with or without the existence of BLU, but for BLU to wholly exist, it must.

3. The only way to balance skills without making them all basically the same is to vary accessibility. This can be done in two ways: sequence and/or relative frequency. The second, in turn can be accomplished through cooldowns or by spending generated resources. For the sake of flexibility and immersion, I'd suggest the latter.

You abilities which hit the strongest in a single GCD are used the least frequently, in the same way that Verflare or Foul or Hissatsu: Guren may be the highest base potencies of their arsenals, but are far from the lead contributors of damage. Their contribution is however much more efficiently they use the 1 in n GCDs or 50 gauge per 2 minutes, etc., over other choices, and what their position in their consequent rotations entail for what surrounds them. None of them work without setup, be it through a gauge, as per Hissatsu: Guren, a timer, as per Foul, or sequenced abilities in turn dependent on gauge, as per Verflare.

What I'd suggest for BLU is a 6-sided gauge of sorts. (However, rather than arbitrating particular skillchain/magic_burst opportunities, I'd recommend simply that skills be permitted multiple aspects. All that follows from the interactions between BLU skills and their respective aspects should naturally follow from the mechanics of each individual aspect, present from the start. That, however, would also be a game-wide system and is out of scope for now.)

To oversimplify, you build in order to spend on other builders in order to spend on other builders to spend on final spenders. The gameplay is in how you can get from A to Z such that the time each step arrives is closest to when you need them or the compromises between them produce the best results.

Let's say I want to build a chancey Tail Screw build for solo speedrunning old content, synced (let's assume the desired rewards are now only available if synced, from time-based bonus rewards either scaled inversely with party size or that would have to be rolled on between all party members, such that there's reason to gamble on a chance ability). The lower the target's HP and -- especially -- the higher my Water-Compression resource (resistance to each mostly negligible outside of Masked Carnival), the more likely it is to succeed, so my plan is to cast it once I have the resource maxed, whatever %HP that ends up. But, I have to survive for that long, which in this case will mean killing high-dps adds, defending against tankbusters, and the like.

Moving backwards from the desired result, which uses Water-Compression, how can I most quickly generate these resources while removing as much extraneous spending as possible or having to participate in indirect contributors like healing or mitigation? That line of reasoning will be the basis for any BLU DPS-centric build.

Can I make use of non-damaging skills in order to reduce extraneous GCDs down the line? Can Sticky Tongue double both as a draw-to and draw-in by using it on mobs immune and not immune to its effect, respectively? Should I focus first on Dark skills and take Spectre's Sadism so that when I avoid damage using Loom, I gain Distortion greater than the Dark resource I spent on it? Should I work towards tranformation skills so that I can cast Physical-aspected skills on the move, at increased STR/DEX/VIT and/or new MND/INT/PIE contributions based on my form and elements, or stick with turret-casting? Can I fit in my favorite animation, Gobbie Punch/Rush/Blitz into this somehow in order to increase the damage of other whirl- or whorl-based skills through added Earth/Scission/Fragmentation, in case I need to consume resource early to kill an add while reducing the boss's chance breakpoint (AoE)?

For builds not centered on damage-dealing, but instead on indirect contribution methods such as mitigation or healing, one simply looks for how they can best source the resources they need for their healing or mitigation tools, best make use of the waste -- if any -- and best make use of whatever the mitigation and healing in turn source -- again, if anything.

[MorbolvampireQueen6]

You know what's a bad idea? Mahjong... but it's here to stay. Just sayin'.

That was only a bad idea because they added that and not blitzball because they were afraid everyone would say forget euro,end game im blitzball champion

[Maero]

@ GenericMagus, a good portion of the money from our subs goes to SE other projects. This has been a known fact for years and the money that is made in the mog shop for vanity stuff gets re-injected back in there.
It is to pay the artists and create other items. I think Stormblood budget was bigger then that of Heavansward if i recall but..
I guess we shall see how the budget of Shadowbringers turns out, hopefully more money is injected.

As for more limited jobs, it could work and i do think it is needed but i would rather it be done to jobs that are not what the masses want as actual jobs.

[Videra]

This deserves to be kicked back up into the limelight because it's unequivocally true. They might not make Blue Mage anything more than an elaborate mini-game, but displeasure at the idea of this happening to other classes is important.

[van_arn]

I love the idea of limited jobs, and would like to see the concept expanded further with more limited jobs and minigames tired to those jobs.

It's a great concept to keep players that don't want to contribute to a party out of battle content (further enhanced by the trust system in shb) and it's something other than roulettes and gold saucer for the most casual players.

[Bright-Flower]

I don't have a problem with the concept.

Now, if I were a big fan of BLU, then maybe this would miff me. But I'm all for SE experimenting with other forms of content. And honestly, jobs they pick for limited jobs...are probably jobs they were unlikely to ever add as normal jobs. If Yoshi P thought they might add blue mage in 6.0 for example I don't think they would have added it as a limited job. Same with beastmaster if that ends up as the next limited job.

I also wouldn't be shocked if they stopped adding 2 new jobs per expansion. I could honestly see it slowing down to one new full job in 6.0. Because every new job adds overhead in future expansions. They all need new weapon models, new job quests, new artifact gear, new spells and animations, and they all have to be balanced. So I expect eventually two jobs per expansion will dwindle to 1, further cutting down the chances of jobs like blue mage or beastmaster anyway.

If it's 'get this job as a limited job side content or never at all' I'd easily take the former. The game needs more side content outside of the endgame loot treadmill, and this is a system that could be fun to see expanded on in the future with more limited job specific duties liked the masked carnival.

[Laerune]

I hope the limited job idea dies with Blue Mage. I realy hope they stay away from Beastmaster, devil be gone, do not touch this class. XD