Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

The lack of patience shown in this thread is amazing. People all learn fights in the own way, and sometimes people will die repeatedly until something clicks for them. And then there is just the matter of skill levels that will vary greatly when you bring this many people together in an MMO. I do wish that SE would remove the penalty for dropping so that way people who can't be bothered to try and help a less than stellar group can just bail vs kicking someone. Some of us like to help these people, most of you evidently do not.

If you want near perfection, perhaps stick to statics and friends you can rely on.

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Nobody's demanding perfect. People are demanding an honest effort, and at level 70, a basic understanding of how your job works.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

To be fair, it would help if the poster these questions were directed at would actually answer said questions. Instead, they opt to deflect and come up with more excuses to not answer the questions directed at them.

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Okay but I fail to see what this has to do with me. It's not like I'm their secretary. It's not my job to answer questions on their behalf. I don't have a direct line to their brain. I saw someone misread a post and I clarified it, that's it. I said nothing about kicking, yet I became bombarded with questions that implied I was against kicking. It was a tad wtf.

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

But you did engage?

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Please direct me to where I suggested anyone should be or should not be kicked. You'll find I said no such thing. I engaged in a part relating to when someone is told something regarding their rotation. Nothing about kicking.

If you want answers from someone who is against kicking...then find people who actually are saying that they are against it instead of flinging it at the first person who dares to quote you on anything.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

If you want near perfection, perhaps stick to statics and friends you can rely on.

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No one here is asking for near perfection, we're just asking that maybe when you queue for Expert roulette that the healer do more than spam Cure 1 sometimes. It's not a crime to expect people to be competent at that level and why anyone wants to suffer a Cure 1 healer inside The Burn is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Nobody's demanding perfect. People are demanding an honest effort, and at level 70, a basic understanding of how your job works.

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I've personally only run across a handful of players that I find to be truly horrible, and with those I even stuck around. I'm not generally too picky. I do tend to run on my healer, so perhaps it's easier for me to help salvage runs that aren't going so hot. If you've got a bad healer, things are more easily doomed. Not claiming I'm fantastic, but I manage fine :p

For full disclosure, I do not run savage and I imagine tensions run higher there. I can appreciate that things get frustrating with randoms, but again, if you're looking to avoid that - stick with statics, friends, or make your own PF where you can dictate the requirements.

I'm not saying that people should just tolerate any type of behavior. We're all here to enjoy our time, and if something isn't working for you, there are ways to deal with it. But this thread does seem to be full of those unwilling to deal with much variance (which is fine), but also feel they don't need to bother with being civil either. Other people are on the other end of that screen, it doesn't hurt to not be a jerk when conversing with others - even when they're not performing to your standards.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

If you want learning parties, perhaps stick to your friends or make PFs.

There, see how that works like that as well?

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And yes, it is easy to reverse it, however, on the NA servers DF is used for playing with randoms and just giving things a shot. PF is for the more select groups. From what I've read here, JP servers have it reversed - DF is where you go when you feel you are fully capable, PF is for training.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Please direct me to where I suggested anyone should be or should not be kicked. You'll find I said no such thing. I engaged in a part relating to when someone is told something regarding their rotation. Nothing about kicking.

If you want answers from someone who is against kicking...then find people who actually are saying that they are against it instead of flinging it at the first person who dares to quote you on anything.

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Kicking is the result of someone refusing or unable to take the advice given to them about their rotation. No one has to mention it, but that's the easy option for dealing with players that can't adjust. You can find a dozen excuses as to why someone can't do a proper rotation, doesn't mean people are just going to accept it.

All I did was ask a couple of simple questions based on the given context that anyone can answer. I never asked you to answer my questions nor did I expect you to, but you tried to "clarify" what they posted and claim that I misunderstood them when they can easily reply to my post themselves.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Okay but I fail to see what this has to do with me. It's not like I'm their secretary. It's not my job to answer questions on their behalf. I don't have a direct line to their brain. I saw someone misread a post and I clarified it, that's it. I said nothing about kicking, yet I became bombarded with questions that implied I was against kicking. It was a tad wtf.

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Seems like you're trying to be their secretary by "clarifying" on their behalf.

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

Seems like you're trying to be their secretary by "clarifying" on their behalf.

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My apologies. I didn't realise that trying to make a person understand a post properly meant that I automatically became someone's personal staff and also an avatar for all their opinions. I guess I'm due a pay cheque.

Also you're preaching to the choir. I'm not against kicking people for poor performance. I'm against being unnecessarily rude.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Okay but I fail to see what this has to do with me. It's not like I'm their secretary. It's not my job to answer questions on their behalf. I don't have a direct line to their brain. I saw someone misread a post and I clarified it, that's it. I said nothing about kicking, yet I became bombarded with questions that implied I was against kicking. It was a tad wtf.

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No, you aren’t their secretary. But you did enter into the conversation, so questions can be re-directed to you at that point. That is usually how discussions work.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

My apologies. I didn't realise that trying to make a person understand a post properly meant that I automatically became someone's personal staff and also an avatar for all their opinions. I guess I'm due a pay cheque.

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Then why try to clarify on their behalf as if you know their thoughts? They can easily follow up on my original post or those questions anyway, so why not just ignore my questions if you don't want to answer them instead of going on about a pointless argument.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

No, you aren’t their secretary. But you did enter into the conversation, so questions can be re-directed to you at that point. That is usually how discussions work.

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So apparently rephrasing what someone else says means I take on a stance I made zero claim to. And it allows people to try to argue with me as if I took on that stance...even though I made absolutely no mention of it.

...okay...

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

Then why try to clarify on their behalf as if you know their thoughts?

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Because I can read and saw you misunderstood something. Being able to interpret something differently counts as being psychic now?

:confused:

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Originally Posted by Penthea

So apparently rephrasing what someone else says means I take on a stance I made zero claim to. And it allows people to try to argue with me as if I took on that stance...even though I made absolutely no mention of it.

...okay...

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So having questions directed at you means the questioner already knows your thoughts and feelings on a topic you've entered into. Kind of kills the point of asking a question but ok.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

So apparently rephrasing what someone else says means I take on a stance I made zero claim to. And it allows people to try to argue with me as if I took on that stance...even though I made absolutely no mention of it.

...okay...

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Did I say any of this? I said that you entered into a discussion; that opens you up to any questions that anyone may have for you. Please don’t put words into my mouth; you advocate against being rude, but it’s rude behavior to say I said something I didn’t actually say.

You offered input into the discussion, and then were asked further questions based on your response. They don’t have to be answered with regards to what you think another person or party thinks; you can simply respond to them with your own thoughts, or not even respond at all. Instead, you sought to debate why you should be asked questions in the first place for 2 1/2 pages.

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

And I'm asking you why should the remaining players put up with someone who can't adapt mid-instance especially when their performance/dps is subpar. If you can't play properly while in any instance and can't change your rotation after your party had given you advice, you should get kicked.

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All they were doing was literally asking you, “What do you think?” They aren’t asking you about what so-and-so other poster thought, but what you think about the situation. Is it so difficult to just answer the question, regardless if it is related to the previous discussion Daibunnie was having with another poster? It’s a question for you. Just answer it instead of arguing “why are you asking me this” after you came into a discussion unprompted.



If you don’t want questions directed towards you—any questions at all—don’t enter into a discussion. It’s simple, really.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Because I can read and saw you misunderstood something. Being able to interpret something differently counts as being psychic now?

:confused:

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Except that's your own interpretation of their message and I responded to you based on those interpretations. If you don't have anything to say, then don't, instead of derailing the thread about whatever it is you're trying to argue.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I assume she hit her post limit.

Tossing around that much misinformation and coddling will catch up with you apparently.

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I eat, work, sleep and do other things too. I think I've replied to a lot of people here, despite the bad words, I keep quoting what I think are the interesting bits of each of your replies and ignore the not so friendly remarks (I still read them, but I'm not going to spend time replying to them).

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

And I'm asking you why should the remaining players put up with someone who can't adapt mid-instance especially when their performance/dps is subpar. If you can't play properly while in any instance and can't change your rotation after your party had given you advice, you should get kicked.

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You want players to listen to your advice, but you tolerate nothing other than immediate 100% efficiency from them when it comes to putting such advice in practice. That's not realistic, and that's not how people learn to adapt to new stuff. Not like you care from what I gather.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

You want players to listen to your advice, but you tolerate nothing other than immediate 100% efficiency from them when it comes to putting such advice in practice.

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Speaking for myself, I don’t expect 100th percentile play. Honestly, no one here does, I don’t think. The insinuation that we think anything less than 100% isn’t enough is inaccurate, in my opinion. Perfection is unobtainable.

But when I give advice to someone clearly struggling, it’s very annoying to me to see them blatantly ignoring it. Especially if it’s something that is causing the party to wipe. There are also some environments where players shouldn’t be giving other players advice on the basics of mechanics and job rotations; the players should already have an understanding of both. Of course, I’m referring to Extreme trials and Savage/Ultimate raids, here: content that requires competency and a higher standard of play.

It’s fairly easy to tell when players are trying to put the advice you gave them into action, and when they are simply just ignoring you. The latter is extremely rude, and it’s one of the many reasons why people no longer want to help, but instead opt to say nothing, leave, or kick the offender.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

You want players to listen to your advice, but you tolerate nothing other than immediate 100% efficiency from them when it comes to putting such advice in practice. That's not realistic, and that's not how people learn to adapt to new stuff. Not like you care from what I gather.

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Never did I mention that a player learning should immediately have 100% efficiency. If I did have that mindset, almost every sprout player I see in Sastasha would've gotten kicked by now. This isn't new stuff that people are having to learn, its the same skills they had access to after reaching level 70. Is shield lob or rage of halone a new skill for a level 67 pld? If it is, you can easily say that player hasn't been using their entire skill kit efficiently. And you're right, I don't care if someone managed to learn something or not from any advice given to them especially since it's likely I'll never see that player again after that instance in df.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

There are also some environments where players shouldn’t be giving other players advice on the basics of mechanics and job rotations; the players should already have an understanding of both. Of course, I’m referring to Extreme trials and Savage/Ultimate raids, here: content that requires competency and a higher standard of play.

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I never argued over a PF party. In a PF you are on your perfect right to decide whether someone is pulling their weight or not, I still think kicking should be done in a polite manner, but the rules of a PF should always be respected. If the host is attempting to create a farm party and somebody who hasn't cleared (and has no clue how the fight works) joins, there's no valid excuse there. Same goes for a static. You set the rules. People either respect them or you leave them out.

But a dungeon with random people is a different sort of scenario. You don't set the rules there, you just queue with 3 other people and try to enjoy the instance (or get it done as fast as possible in the scenario you are just there for your daily tomes), that's where I keep saying people in general should be respectful and tolerant, because you'll keep coming across very different people, from speedrunners that will evaporate packs of mobs and bosses in the blink of an eye to clumsy healers that will fail to heal a moderate burst and possibly cause a wipe. Some people even use level 70 dungeons as training grounds to get familiar with their rotations so that they can later feel more confident against EX Primals or savage; and that's completely natural because dummies do not provide you with a real context where you have to handle your rotation all while dealing with a certain amount of mechanics (even if they are simple). You are setting up for disappointment if you expect high level of gameplay in dungeons. And "acceptable levels of gameplay" falls into the ambiguous category. "Acceptable levels of gameplay" will vastly differ from one player to another.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

I never argued over a PF party. In a PF you are on your perfect right to decide whether someone is pulling their weight or not, I still think kicking should be done in a polite manner, but the rules of a PF should always be respected. If the host is attempting to create a farm party and somebody who hasn't cleared (and has no clue how the fight works) joins, there's no valid excuse there. Same goes for a static. You set the rules. People either respect them or you leave them out.

But a dungeon with random people is a different sort of scenario. You don't set the rules there, you just queue with 3 other people and try to enjoy the instance (or get it done as fast as possible in the scenario you are just there for your daily tomes), that's where I keep saying people in general should be respectful and tolerant, because you'll keep coming across very different people, from speedrunners that will evaporate packs of mobs and bosses in the blink of an eye to clumsy healers that will fail to heal a moderate burst and possibly cause a wipe. Some people even use level 70 dungeons as training grounds to get familiar with their rotations so that they can later feel more confident against EX Primals or savage; and that's completely natural because dummies do not provide you with a real context where you have to handle your rotation all while dealing with a certain amount of mechanics (even if they are simple). You are setting up for disappointment if you expect high level of gameplay in dungeons. And "acceptable levels of gameplay" falls into the ambiguous category. "Acceptable levels of gameplay" will vastly differ from one player to another.

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Except no one has argued otherwise. They simply expressed a limit. I'll once again cite my own experiences. After dying three times despite rotating CDs—even to the point of over-mitigating, I eventually called out the healer, saying, "Can you actually heal?" Considering my friend was the other healer, who was complaining over voice how much work she had to do to compensate, we both knew the issue and were annoyed. This person wasn't new nor did the say anything up until that point. They simply weren't healing me after tank busters. Even new healers should know basic things like that. I ultimately kicked them when we wiped for the third time as I died to autos. You can call my outburst rude all you fancy, but I lost patience. There's a stark difference between that and harassment. Which is what prompted this whole exchange to begin with.

Queuing through Duty Finder doesn't mean you should tolerate everything that happens to come your way. There comes a point where tolerance has its limits.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

I never argued over a PF party. In a PF you are on your perfect right to decide whether someone is pulling their weight or not . . . .But a dungeon with random people is a different sort of scenario. You don't set the rules there

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So, are you saying that expecting basic competency in something like a level-capped dungeon is wrong? Should we not expect healers to know how to keep a tank/the party alive? What about the tank? Should we not expect them to hold aggro and use cooldowns appropriately? Should we not expect DPS to AOE in the appropriate situations? Because this is the type of play I expect. If people fail to meet it, I am well within my right to be dissatisfied. Randoms or not.

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Some people even use level 70 dungeons as training grounds to get familiar with their rotations so that they can later feel more confident against EX Primals or savage; and that's completely natural because dummies do not provide you with a real context where you have to handle your rotation all while dealing with a certain amount of mechanics (even if they are simple).

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There’s a vast difference in “practicing a level 70 rotation” and “failing to do something as simple as AOEing when appropriate”. Or “failing to use cooldowns when appropriate”. Or “failing to make appropriate use of regens/shields/healing abilities”. All of these examples are things that players have access to far below level 70. Most DPS have AOE skills sub-level 30, yet there are so many in Expert Roulette that insist on single-targeting mobs in a pack of 6, 7, or even 8 mobs.

There’s also a huge difference in “practicing a level 70 rotation” and “failing a mechanic that has been present multiple times in multiple instances before now”. Do you know how many players I see in V12N run away with the stack marker? Yet stack markers have been encountered since level 60+ content repeatedly (Void Ark, Final Steps of Faith, Sirensong Sea). To name an even more common one, just the basic orange AOE circle. Yet how many people fail to dodge those? Expecting people to dodge the pretty orange circles on the ground is not a high demand.

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You are setting up for disappointment if you expect high level of gameplay in dungeons. And "acceptable levels of gameplay" falls into the ambiguous category. "Acceptable levels of gameplay" will vastly differ from one player to another.

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I’d wager to say that “performing the basics of your job at level 70” probably fit into a lot of player’s “acceptable levels of gameplay” for dungeons. There’s no excuse to be level 70 and performing a single-target rotation in a huge pack. There’s no excuse to be level 70 and not using your defensive cooldowns or not maintaining aggro. There’s no excuse to be level 70 and using only Medica II to heal a tank.

You probably think I’m exaggerating, but I can assure you I’m not. There’s an entire thread dedicated to DF horror stories, and the above examples I have listed are far more than just random examples—they’re common occurrences.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Except no one has argued otherwise. They simply expressed a limit. I'll once again cite my own experiences. After dying three times despite rotating CDs—even to the point of over-mitigating, I eventually called out the healer, saying, "Can you actually heal?" Considering my friend was the other healer, who was complaining over voice how much work she had to do to compensate, we both knew the issue and were annoyed. This person wasn't new nor did the say anything up until that point. They simply weren't healing me after tank busters. Even new healers should know basic things like that. I ultimately kicked them when we wiped for the third time as I died to autos. You can call my outburst rude all you fancy, but I lost patience. There's a stark difference between that and harassment. Which is what prompted this whole exchange to begin with.

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You had two healers, so it was a party of eight players. That's not a DF dungeon. If your friend had to do a lot of extra work because the other healer was slacking, it's only natural they were not happy about it. I don't know the details, but from what I've read, personally, I wouldn't have asked the other healer "can you actually heal?", I would've been more specific. In which parts of the encounter/primal is your friend struggling more? (because of the other healer slacking or playing poorly), I would've spotted those dangerous moments where your friend felt overwhelmed and then asked the other healer if they could cast an extra medica II in X phase, or have the tank topped in X tank buster while your friend handles the aoes. If you are more specific on where you want others to improve, it'll help them. It won't have any effect on the people that are deliberately slacking, but it'll help greatly on the people that are just confused on how to handle a situation and don't know any better.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Queuing through Duty Finder doesn't mean you should tolerate everything that happens to come your way. There comes a point where tolerance has its limits.

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The only thing I don't enjoy seeing in a DF party are people insulting each other, the rest I can handle, but that's just very personal. Up to you what you tolerate and what you don't, but I think it's wise to set the bar a lot lower in such content than in a raiding/PF farm party scenario.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

You had two healers, so it was a party of eight players. That's not a DF dungeon. If your friend had to do a lot of extra work because the other healer was slacking, it's only natural they were not happy about it. I don't know the details, but from what I've read, personally, I wouldn't have asked the other healer "can you actually heal?", I would've been more specific. In which parts of the encounter/primal is your friend struggling more? (because of the other healer slacking or playing poorly), I would've spotted those dangerous moments where your healer felt overwhelmed and then asked the other healer if they could cast an extra medica II in X phase, or have the tank topped in X tank buster while I handle the aoes. If you are more specific on where you want others to improve, it'll help them. It won't have any effect on the people that are deliberately slacking, but it'll help greatly on the people that are just confused on how to handle a situation and don't know any better.

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When the MT (me) is dying to auto attacks, telling the other person to heal is the criticism. A simple Cure II or Regen would solve that problem. Regardless, this isn't something that should be happening in O11N. This is healing 101, i.e. heal the person taking damage from the boss. If I have to sit and coach you through the basics of healing, I've collectively wasted seven other people's time because you couldn't be bothered to learn how your job functions before stepping into max level content. If you're confused about the tank taking damage, especially after it happened repeatedly in the same spots due to multiple wipes. You have no business being there. Just because it's Duty Finder doesn't give you a blank cheque to do whatever and except no to annoy people. If you want to take the time to coach them through it, by all means. I'm under no obligation to teach someone how to play White Mage at level 70. Hence why I kicked them.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

The only thing I don't enjoy seeing in a DF party are people insulting each other, the rest I can handle, but that's just very personal. Up to you what you tolerate and what you don't, but I think it's wise to set the bar a lot lower in such content than in a raiding/PF farm party scenario.

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My bar is incredibly low for DF. Some people manage to perform even worse...

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Originally Posted by Gallus

You had two healers, so it was a party of eight players. That's not a DF dungeon. If your friend had to do a lot of extra work because the other healer was slacking, it's only natural they were not happy about it. I don't know the details, but from what I've read, personally, I wouldn't have asked the other healer "can you actually heal?", I would've been more specific. In which parts of the encounter/primal is your friend struggling more? (because of the other healer slacking or playing poorly), I would've spotted those dangerous moments where your friend felt overwhelmed and then asked the other healer if they could cast an extra medica II in X phase, or have the tank topped in X tank buster while your friend handles the aoes. If you are more specific on where you want others to improve, it'll help them. It won't have any effect on the people that are deliberately slacking, but it'll help greatly on the people that are just confused on how to handle a situation and don't know any better.

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Hello. I’m the friend in question here. Since I’m being referenced, I’m going to take the time to respond.

This happened in O11N, so you’re right in saying it wasn’t a dungeon. However, that doesn’t make the behavior any more or less excusable.

I asked countless times for my co-healer to help with healing. I explicitedly asked for them to use their regens (I was on AST, in Noct sect for the first 2 pulls, but eventually went Diurnal for the 3rd pull since they seemed allergic to the Regen/Medica II buttons). I asked for them to keep a Regen on the MT. I asked for them to heal after the tank busters. I did nothing but ask them to help heal, even naming the AOE attacks and the tankbuster in case they didn’t remember/didn’t know what they were explicitly called, and their response to me was “I guess I can heal the tank then”.

We kicked them after that because I told them “I’m sorry, I’m not going to be stuck solo-healing this fight because you just don’t want to heal”. Enough of the party apparently also agreed, because they were removed less than 10 seconds after the Vote Dismiss was placed.


Such behavior is completely unacceptable. Such play is completely unaccceptable. And, as I said above: it doesn’t matter if it’s in an 8-man trial over a dungeon; who knows what their dungeon playstyle is even like if I have to explictly ask for them to please use their toolkit. I’d wager to say probably not that stellar either; but it’s easier to get away with poor play in dungeons sometimes since the requirements for them are set so low. Doesn’t make it any less unacceptable in the end.

You’re a level 70 player. You aren’t new anymore. Start learning how to play, and stop forcing others to make up for your shortcomings. I’m far more patient with new people, especially if I see them trying. But when I’m stuck with a co-healer that isn’t new to the content—that has better gear than me, because this individual did: they were full i370 with i380 and I was still in i360 Augmented Crafted stuff—and that doesn’t want to perform their designated role, I don’t have any patience anymore. It wasn’t even an issue of them doing “all DPS, no healing”; they were doing very little of both. Most of their time was spent jumping around.

I’m sorry, but I won’t apologize for removing them from the party. Hopefully they learn from the experience.

Easy, what's acceptable is decided by who has enough votes for a kick at any level of any content of any tier in the game.

I'll happily kick a gladiator in sastasha that doesn't use flash and does not respond to party chat -- in fact I have -- and no amount of muh feels will be enough to make that not happen.

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

Except that's your own interpretation of their message and I responded to you based on those interpretations. If you don't have anything to say, then don't, instead of derailing the thread about whatever it is you're trying to argue.

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Your response was asking me why you should play with those people as if I had ever said anyone should. You appeared to simply continue the argument you were having with an entirely different person. It felt like whatever frustration you had towards that person became redirected to me. I have no idea if this is what you intended but this is how I felt. I didn't want to enter an argument in which I seemed to be just the replacement for the other person who most likely reached their daily post limit. I have my own opinions on the matter you were discussing...I didn't state them, but I was treated as if I had. At least this is how I felt.

No disrespect meant. I was literally acting upon seeing two people who thought they were arguing about the same thing when to me it appeared that they were not. Simple as that. I had no intention of taking sides because frankly both arguments have merit.

And well maybe to give it some rest I'll finally answer you. I don't think the kick or not to kick debate is black and white. So much context matters as well as the personal goals of the players. I'm a firm believer that people should ideally play with who they want to play with and not be forced into an unpleasant situation whether that's poorly skilled or rude players. If you don't like a group or a person then something needs to change. Whether that means everyone plays at an agreed standard or leave to find others to play with.

My chief concern in all of this is not being unnecessarily rude if players happen upon some sort of issue. Just because something isn't going well doesn't automatically grant anyone the right to be horrible to others. It's not difficult to be critical without descending the commentary to insults. So many times in my years of gaming I have seen people start insulting the personality of a player and even their glam just because their dps was low. No matter how correct their other criticisms are all that player will remember is the insults, not the advice. Being unnecessarily rude is counterproductive, cruel, and it sustains the stereotype of unreasonable elitism that skilled players supposedly have.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Easy, what's acceptable is decided by who has enough votes for a kick at any level of any content of any tier in the game.

I'll happily kick a gladiator in sastasha that doesn't use flash and does not respond to party chat -- in fact I have -- and no amount of muh feels will be enough to make that not happen.

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Eh, in Satasha I will generally just shrug and keep moving unless the group is incapable of progressing. Even in the worst case scenario they usually do. If nothing else it gives me a chance to show off my mad SAM tanking skills. But I will certainly try to reach the tank if I can. Anything beyond that though? Sorry Mr/Ms/Mrs Tank-Who-Can't-Tank, bye.

I actually had a tank back in ARR in Totorak, a WAR. We asked them to use their tanking abilities because they couldn't keep hate. Their response? "What's a tank?" I don't believe they were a troll either...I believe they genuinely didn't know, and simply saw the axe and thought it looked cool. One thing led to another though and they were kicked after they wouldn't respond to advice being given after the initial conversation.

I have no regrets, and I can only hope that they solved their identity crisis. We can't make people improve, but we can at least try and point them in the right direction...or give them a kick in the pants. The 2nd is a better motivator, imo.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I actually had a tank back in ARR in Totorak, a WAR. We asked them to use their tanking abilities because they couldn't keep hate. Their response? "What's a tank?

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The best thing you can do is direct them to the novice hall. That would give them an idea as to what their class is supposed to do.

But if they were already in the novice hall gear...well you can't help everyone!

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Originally Posted by Penthea

The best thing you can do is direct them to the novice hall. That would give them an idea as to what their class is supposed to do.

But if they were already in the novice hall gear...well you can't help everyone!

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I think this was actually before the Novice Hall was a thing. Can't remember exactly though.

Edit: Yeah, way before.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

The best thing you can do is direct them to the novice hall. That would give them an idea as to what their class is supposed to do.

But if they were already in the novice hall gear...well you can't help everyone!

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If they're in any dungeon and need the hall of the novice, it's already too late. They had to skip or not pay attention to the lessons in the hall of the novice to enter sastasha.

Kick.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

If they're in any dungeon and need the hall of the novice, it's already too late. They had to skip or not pay attention to the lessons in the hall of the novice to enter sastasha.

Kick.

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Bit harsh don't you think? Have you not considered that players tend to prioritise quests? The various novice hall lessons are not presented as quests so a player may dismiss it thinking quests would be a better source of gear and xp. I have actually met players who did this.

Also Sastasha isn't so difficult that a tank can't be given tips to ease the progress in the dungeon. I have seen sprout tanks do much better in just one pull from listening to quick tips they were given. If the tank refuses to acknowledge the tips, then yea kick them.

But god give the baby sprouts a chance, jeez. Sastasha is the first dungeon, you really need to accept that you're going to encounter clueless players in there sometimes. Very unrealistic expectations if you expect every sprout to have a solid understanding of their role when it's possible that they have done zero group content up to that point.

Maybe people should stop making such vague excuses for bad players? I'm not advocating being negative towards players who fall into that category, but making excuses and trying to justify bad play isn't exactly a healthy solution.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Bit harsh don't you think? Have you not considered that players tend to prioritise quests? The various novice hall lessons are not presented as quests so a player may dismiss it thinking quests would be a better source of gear and xp. I have actually met players who did this.

Also Sastasha isn't so difficult that a tank can't be given tips to ease the progress in the dungeon. I have seen sprout tanks do much better in just one pull from listening to quick tips they were given. If the tank refuses to acknowledge the tips, then yea kick them.

But god give the baby sprouts a chance, jeez. Sastasha is the first dungeon, you really need to accept that you're going to encounter clueless players in there sometimes. Very unrealistic expectations if you expect every sprout to have a solid understanding of their role when it's possible that they have done zero group content up to that point.

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Hm, I think I might have... oh.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

I'll happily kick a gladiator in sastasha that doesn't use flash and does not respond to party chat -- in fact I have -- and no amount of muh feels will be enough to make that not happen.

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Originally Posted by Selova

Maybe people should stop making such vague excuses for bad players? I'm not advocating being negative towards players who fall into that category, but making excuses and trying to justify bad play isn't exactly a healthy solution.

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This is the official forums, where it's mean to expect higher than autoattack-tier damage because pushing buttons is elitist.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

This is the official forums, where it's mean to expect higher than autoattack-tier damage because pushing buttons is elitist.

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The opposite is also true. I have seen in many threads a lot of people acting as if it's perfectly acceptable to instantly kick people for daring to be only average in non-savage content. A lot of opinions regarding player performance are quite extreme on both ends. This is why the debates tend to get very heated.

I dunno I'm starting to see new tanks get the "WoW" treatment in some of the lvl 25 Main quest scenarios. To quote a friend. "If I'm going to get called names every time I group I just won't bother" It's odd seeing toxicity rear it's ugly head in FFXIV, it's definitely different than it was.

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Originally Posted by Jett-Rinn

I dunno I'm starting to see new tanks get the "WoW" treatment in some of the lvl 25 Main quest scenarios. To quote a friend. "If I'm going to get called names every time I group I just won't bother" It's odd seeing toxicity rear it's ugly head in FFXIV, it's definitely different than it was.

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Toxicity has always existed in FF XIV. So long as there are people, there is always going to be toxicity. Nothing has changed. I do think it's being blown way out of proportion though. Seriously, it's not as bad as you, or others make it out to be. Some people also need to take a look and think "maybe it's not other people, it's me". It doesn't happen consistently for no reason. Calling someone names isn't something I can condone, but if there's hostility whenever there's a particular person present more often than not...I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's the person claiming to be the victim which is the root of the issue, whether it's their general attitude or their lack of skill. Both of which can be fixed, in theory.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Toxicity has always existed in FF XIV. So long as there are people, there is always going to be toxicity. Nothing has changed. I do think it's being blown way out of proportion though. Seriously, it's not as bad as you, or others make it out to be. Some people also need to take a look and think "maybe it's not other people, it's me". It doesn't happen consistently for no reason. Calling someone names isn't something I can condone, but if there's hostility whenever there's a particular person present more often than not...I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's the person claiming to be the victim which is the root of the issue, whether it's their general attitude or their lack of skill. Both of which can be fixed.

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So Blame the victim....gotcha. Sorry, I don't roll that way and I think folks that do should just stick with their FC instead of playing task master of Duty Finder.

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Originally Posted by Jett-Rinn

So Blame the victim....gotcha. Sorry, I don't roll that way and I think folks that do should just stick with their FC instead of playing task master of Duty Finder.

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That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that if there's a pattern it's pretty hard to ignore. Your response is rather hypocritical considering your stance on toxicity. I hope there's not a pattern here.

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Originally Posted by Jett-Rinn

So Blame the victim....gotcha. Sorry, I don't roll that way and I think folks that do should just stick with their FC instead of playing task master of Duty Finder.

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Right because the person who's being named called is always 100% not to be blamed or didn't start anything. Vahlnir said that sometimes it can be the person who is getting the hostility might be the cause of it. Not that it always is.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Right because the person who's being named called is always 100% not to be blamed or didn't start anything. Vahlnir said that sometimes it can be the person who is getting the hostility might be the cause of it. Not that it always is.

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Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that if there's a pattern it's pretty hard to ignore. Your response is rather hypocritical considering your stance on toxicity. I hope there's not a pattern here.

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Honestly not trying to be hypocritical, but try to understand the frustration when a current player builds up a game to have the exact opposite type of community as your average Raid or die MMO to a new player, then before the new person even hits 35, they get slammed and vote kicked multiple times (which unless someone is afk or being harassing is against the rules) for not knowing every single aspect of a fight and even told the group they are new.

A person who could have ended up being a decent player logs out and logs back into the other MMO she was playing because the devil you know is sometimes better than the devil you don't.

But before they leave they point out the 1700 post thread on this forum where the vets are literally slamming all the "bads" they have to endure.

And no it wasn't really like that a couple years back. I'm not saying that anyone on this thread is guilty of that, but it is happening and in every MMo I have played that adopts this attitude, a reduced player base isn't far behind.

That's my two cents on it.

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Originally Posted by Jett-Rinn

Honestly not trying to be hypocritical, but try to understand the frustration when a current player builds up a game to have the exact opposite type of community as your average Raid or die MMO to a new player, then before the new person even hits 35, they get slammed and vote kicked multiple times (which unless someone is afk or being harassing is against the rules) for not knowing every single aspect of a fight and even told the group they are new.

A person who could have ended up being a decent player logs out and logs back into the other MMO she was playing because the devil you know is sometimes better than the devil you don't.

But before they leave they point out the 1700 post thread on this forum where the vets are literally slamming all the "bads" they have to endure.

And no it wasn't really like that a couple years back. I'm not saying that anyone on this thread is guilty of that, but it is happening and in every MMo I have played that adopts this attitude, a reduced player base isn't far behind.

That's my two cents on it.

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I respect your opinion, but a "toxic" atmosphere isn't typically responsible for a game's decline. I still don't believe this game is there yet. What's usually responsible is a rift that grows between the players, the devs and the company in charge of a game as the quality and quantity begin to...degrade. This has been very much the case with WoW as a more recent example.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I respect your opinion, but a "toxic" atmosphere isn't typically responsible for a game's decline. I still don't believe this game is there yet. What's usually responsible is a rift that grows between the players, the devs and the company in charge of a game as the quality and quantity begin to...degrade. This has been very much the case with WoW as a more recent example.

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Speaking as someone who quit WoW after ten years, I'm not disagreeing with you, but the toxicity of the community there was a contributing factor to why I quit. My main reason was of course, as you say, the rift between the players and the company. But I'd be lying if I said that FFXIV's much calmer community wasn't a welcome change and surprise that made it easier to leave WoW behind.

Before I quit WoW I stepped down from hardcore raiding and played casually, and the toxicity I encountered in lvling content was sometimes awful. I got harassed in a lvl 60 dungeon because I was playing a dwarf warlock. They laughed at me because I was supposedly a noob for not playing as a human or gnome. And no they didn't stop when I explained it was only an alt to have a bit of fun. I saw a tank get mocked for being bad simply because he didn't want to chain pull while the healer was afk. A dps pulled, it caused a wipe and they blamed it on the tank for not reacting fast enough. I could go on like this for a while. Of course not every dungeon was as dramatic as this but it wasn't a rare occurrence to see some completely needless and downright mean comments in casual content. Never mind all the stuff I saw as a hardcore raider.

These experiences with toxicity didn't make me quit WoW, but my god they made it easier to.