Dear Healers who don't DPS

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Originally Posted by RulerOfPotaoes

People don't seem to understand that the healer (the player) is self aware and capable of dps'n... it is (Not) mandatory.. it is (Not) obligatory to dps as a healer.

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On the contrary: what most people do seem to understand pretty well is that when you're playing in a team and you can do something that's good and helpful for your team, you should do it.

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Originally Posted by RulerOfPotaoes

you do not demand or criticize the healer for not dps'n because for all you know the (Healer/Player) is just not feeling like dps'n for whatever reason.. and is probably better than you or what you give him credit for.

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What if the BLM just isn't feeling like using their fire spells? What if the PLD isn't feeling like doing any DPS? What if the BRD isn't feeling like giving their party members MP/TP when that's needed? It's one thing if you have a reason for not doing something ("sorry I have a horrible headache and I'm just trying to get through this by focusing on only healing / my most basic rotation / keeping hate"), but "I'm just not feeling like being helpful to my party" is not something anyone should get much credit for.

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Originally Posted by RulerOfPotaoes

Not having to dps as a healer because its (not) mandatory is one of the few luxuries healers have for having the most stressful role in the game.

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Most stressful role, really? In a few specific fights (which have nothing to do with DF) maybe. In general, definitely not (yes I mained healer from 1.0 until early SB).

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Originally Posted by RulerOfPotaoes

Ask nicely if your healer is willing to dps. If he says no then deal with it and keep in mind the things i mentioned above.

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I will ask nicely. If he refuses to co-operate (without a reason when there's clearly an opportunity for it), I will ask nicely again, and explain why they should. If they still refuse to co-operate, that's what the playstyle differences vote kick is for.

You don't understand that (Should) and (Has) to dps are two different things. Nobody is arguing wether a healer should dps or not. This long year issue is whether the healer Has to or not.

Dps has to do damage
Tank has to keep agroo
Healer has to keep the team alive.

A healer should dps yes but he's not forced or obligated to because (Should) and (has) are two different things. Most healers understand this and only dps when they want to and not because people think they (should)

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Originally Posted by RulerOfPotaoes

You don't understand that (Should) and (Has) to dps are two different things.

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No one has to do anything in this game. But other players also don't have to play with a player who's choosing to hold their group back.

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Originally Posted by RulerOfPotaoes

Tank has to keep agroo

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It has been shown that a tank CAN keep aggro by doing extremely LITTLE dps.

But if a tank did that, they'd be shunned.

Can this thread die already? It's toxic af and you are all talking in circles. Believe what you want, but I'm gonna play however I deem fit at the time, dps or not, which is how the devs want us to play as long as we perform our main role. Word to those who are uncomfortable with dps as a healer or otherwise think like me: just bring friends. Protect yourselves from the toxic randoms you'll get in DF and if they hassle you continuously, kick them for harassment. It's the only way you'll get to have peace of mind while healing. And people wonder why healers in DF are about as rare as tanks.

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Originally Posted by RulerOfPotaoes

you do not demand or criticize the healer for not dps'n because for all you know the (Healer/Player) is just not feeling like dps'n for whatever reason.. and is probably better than you or what you give him credit for.

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You're only as good as you do, not as good as you "feel." I thought I'd seen everything in this discussion, but what is this? If the healer doesn't feel like playing, they're free to log off or go chat in town.

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Originally Posted by RulerOfPotaoes

Not having to dps as a healer because its (not) mandatory is one of the few luxuries healers have for having the most stressful role in the game.

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I do not believe in healer entitlement. As a healer main, I firmly believe that we are not special snowflakes and that the increased responsibility of our role is heavily offset by its simplicity and power. It's fine for someone to say that playing healer stresses them out since that's their experience, but it's certainly not true of everyone. Personally I think that healer is the easiest role in the game in terms of execution; there isn't anything resembling a true rotation to manage, CDs are fairly minimal, and party expectations in casual content are pretty lax. Most players are happy for not dying even though many of them are even happier if they see their healer doing other productive things between heals.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I do not believe in healer entitlement.

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You better start believing in healer entitlement, these forums are full of it. :D (Yeah I know what you meant, it was just funny.)

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Originally Posted by RulerOfPotaoes

Dps has to do damage
Tank has to keep agroo
Healer has to keep the team alive.

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Dragoon spams True Thrust -> Vorpal Thrust -> Full Thrust
Samurai spams Hakaze -> Jinpu -> Gekko
Dark Knight spams Unleash
White Mage spams Cure/Cure II

All three of met your baseline criteria yet only one role has a built in excuse whereas the other two are universally shunned. Bear in mind, each dungeon has a 90 minute time limit, thus if we're going by the dev's generous determination, success is completing it in that allotted time frame. I can assure you this group will finish any current dungeon. It may be agonizingly slow but nowhere is it stipulated DPS have to deal a specific amount of damage nor tanks have to deal more than the absolute minimum (none Paladin). If you're okay with an hour long Kugane Castle, fair enough. If, however, you expect more from the DPS and tanks, I expect more from you.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

Dear Tanks,

Don't pull wall to wall if you want Healers to DPS. Thanks.

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Can we please knock off the strawmen?

No one in this thread has advocated healers need to DPS above all else. We want them to be doing something. If tanks pull wall to wall and you can scarcely manage to get off more than one Aero III and maybe a Swiftcast Holy, good. You're spam healing, thus you're adhering to the standards of every other job: Always Be Casting. This thread is about healers who refuse to anything except heal regardless of the circumstances. For example purposes, I got into a row with a healer who insisted you were garbage if you ever allowed the tank's HP to dip below 80%. That renders abilities like Tetra and Essential utterly worthless since you'll never be low enough to truly benefit from their potency potential.

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Originally Posted by Destatiredux

Can this thread die already? It's toxic af and you are all talking in circles. Believe what you want, but I'm gonna play however I deem fit at the time, dps or not, which is how the devs want us to play as long as we perform our main role. Word to those who are uncomfortable with dps as a healer or otherwise think like me: just bring friends. Protect yourselves from the toxic randoms you'll get in DF and if they hassle you continuously, kick them for harassment. It's the only way you'll get to have peace of mind while healing. And people wonder why healers in DF are about as rare as tanks.

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Unfortunately there's 15 people using Swiftcast Raise every time this thread dies. That's the trouble with trying to kill something in a room full of healers. ;)

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Originally Posted by Destatiredux

Can this thread die already? It's toxic af and you are all talking in circles. Believe what you want, but I'm gonna play however I deem fit at the time,.

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This thread needs to die because I don't like what is being discussed! No one is forcing you to engage in the debate. If it truly offends you, don't participate.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Dragoon spams True Thrust -> Vorpal Thrust -> Full Thrust
Samurai spams Hakaze -> Jinpu -> Gekko
Dark Knight spams Unleash
White Mage spams Cure/Cure II

All three of met your baseline criteria yet only one role has a built in excuse whereas the other two are universally shunned. Bear in mind, each dungeon has a 90 minute time limit, thus if we're going by the dev's generous determination, success is completing it in that allotted time frame. I can assure you this group will finish any current dungeon. It may be agonizingly slow but nowhere is it stipulated DPS have to deal a specific amount of damage nor tanks have to deal more than the absolute minimum (none Paladin). If you're okay with an hour long Kugane Castle, fair enough. If, however, you expect more from the DPS and tanks, I expect more from you.

Can we please knock off the strawmen? No one in this thread has advocated healers need to DPS above all else. We want them to be doing something. If tanks pull wall to wall and you can scarcely manage to get off more than one Aero III and maybe a Swiftcast Holy, good. You're spam healing, thus you're adhering to the standards of every other job: Always Be Casting. This thread is about healers who refuse to anything except heal regardless of the circumstances. For example purposes, I got into a row with a healer who insisted you were garbage if you ever allowed the tank's HP to dip below 80%. That renders abilities like Tetra and Essential utterly worthless since you'll never be low enough to truly benefit from their potency potential.

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This entire post is toxic. It immediately targets Healers as nothing but heal bots. It was started with a strawman argument accusing Healers of not DPSing. You want to know the reason why it happens though? It's because tanks pull wall to wall so that Healers don't get a chance to DPS at all. They're stuck on a mindless loop of spamming a heal every 3 seconds unless they're a WHM that has benediction up so that they can quickly cast an Aero III or something just so they can DPS with a DoT.

If you want Healers to use their full kits. You need to give them an opportunity to do so. Wall to wall pulls are barely even saving any time. In some cases, it's a waste of time and its even worse with a wipe. So, if you want Healers to do DPS, don't pull wall to wall like the idiot tank who wants to stand in AoEs like you are that forces Healers to dedicate even more time to spamming heals. That way you only guarantee Healers don't get a chance to cast any damage spells at all. It's like the stupid tanks who wait until their HP is down to 30% before the activate a cooldown.

However, keeping a tank at 80%+ is a viable strategy. For some classes, you need higher and the reason for that is that's about how much damage the tank buster deals. It's better to keep a tank topped off with smaller heals and avoid the need for the big cd instant cast spells that are for emergencies until when you really need it. That way, the chance of the tank dying to the tank buster drops to 0, even if the tank doesn't pop cds.

For starters, the more you pull, the less likely a Healer is going to be able to DPS because they're too busy keeping an idiot like yourself topped off because you pulled wall to wall instead of a small group. There's a reason why they are divided into small groups of usually 3 mobs and why most Healers only DPS in Raids. It's the only chance they ever get to assuming the tank that refuses to dodge AoEs.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

This entire post is toxic. . .For starters, the more you pull, the less likely a Healer is going to be able to DPS they're too busy keeping an idiot like yourself topped off.

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Hello pot, meet kettle.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

If you want Healers to use their full kits. You need to give them an opportunity to do so.

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Tanks using their defensive CD's gives healers the opportunity to do so. Also, you do realize every healer has some sort of mitigation that does damage as well right? Earthly star, Holy, Assize, Shadow Flare and most are instant cast.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

You want to know the reason why it happens though? It's because tanks pull wall to wall so that Healers don't get a chance to DPS at all.

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This point has been addressed over and over again throughout this thread. No one is suggesting that healers are at fault for not DPSing when they truly need the GCDs for heals.

If you skim the posts a bit, you will see that the acceptable target, if you will, is the healer who either does nothing or mindlessly overheals during "downtime" because they don't think they should be expected to pitch in or because they are tired/stressed/lazy/hungry/netflixing/facebooking/etc.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

You want to know the reason why it happens though? It's because tanks pull wall to wall so that Healers don't get a chance to DPS at all. They're stuck on a mindless loop of spamming a heal every 3 seconds unless they're a WHM that has benediction up so that they can quickly cast an Aero III or something just so they can DPS with a DoT.

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I have played a healer in this game from 1.0 until current experts and extremes (I raid as BRD now so not experienced in that). I have never met a tank who has played in such a way that I have not been able to do any DPS at all. Unless they have been so ridiculously undergeared (or had broken gear) that they haven't been able to survive in the first place, in which case they shouldn't be in the instance anyway. Now this is not to say that if a tank is making super big pulls in DPS stance without using any cooldowns and with low item level the healer should just bite their tongue and step up. As many other people have said, if the actual healing (not spamming overheals) is keeping the healer busy (and not because they're using their healing abilities badly), that is fine. What people dislike is when the healing in itself doesn't keep the healer busy, and then the healer chooses not to do anything (useful) at all with their extra time. But also, if you do often encounter tanks playing in a way that prevents you from doing any DPS at all, you may want to check how you use your healing abilities. :)

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Tanks using their defensive CD's gives healers the opportunity to do so. Also, you do realize every healer has some sort of mitigation that does damage as well right? Earthly star, Holy, Assize, Shadow Flare and most are instant cast.

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Er, not really. Earthly Star is instant, but has a delay upon execution (even if you detonate it immediately), one that's even longer if you wait for it to charge up, and it does very little damage. Shadow Flare also does very little damage, and a 5% Slow is not exactly much in the realm of mitigation. Neither of these can even be remotely compared to how strong Holy/Assize are, other than maybe "they're AoEs with no cast time"

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

You want to know the reason why it happens though? It's because tanks pull wall to wall so that Healers don't get a chance to DPS at all. They're stuck on a mindless loop of spamming a heal every 3 seconds unless they're a WHM that has benediction up so that they can quickly cast an Aero III or something just so they can DPS with a DoT.

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Post you quote clearly stated that it's normal to be locked in cure spam in that situation and nobody expects healer to magically pull more GCDs from nowhere.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

However, keeping a tank at 80%+ is a viable strategy. For some classes, you need higher and the reason for that is that's about how much damage the tank buster deals. It's better to keep a tank topped off with smaller heals and avoid the need for the big cd instant cast spells that are for emergencies until when you really need it. That way, the chance of the tank dying to the tank buster drops to 0, even if the tank doesn't pop cds.

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So we talking raids now? I thought problem was with tanks doing big pulls? In most cases regen and/or Eos (yes, you can use Embrace above 80% hp) is enough to keep tank topped. Single cure before buster if not.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

This entire post is toxic.

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So far your post was one of the most toxic in this whole topic.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Shadow Flare also does very little damage, and a 5% Slow is not exactly much in the realm of mitigation.

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It's free, both SF and Sacred Soil can't be up at the same time, and both have CD's so you might as well use it. There's no reason not to use it.

I can't help but wonder if the majority of healers who don't DPS are playing it as their first/only class, because after spending most of my time as a DPS/tank, it would feel unnatural to not be pressing buttons every GCD.

As a Scholar I can normally do both DoTs and Bane after topping off the tank during the initial pull, especially if I use Eye for an Eye. There's also no reason why you can't do Shadow Flare, because it's off the gcd and 5% slow can make a difference if you're having trouble keeping the tank up, and doing at least some aoe damage means that the pull will end sooner.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

It's free, both SF and Sacred Soil can't be up at the same time, and both have CD's so you might as well use it. There's no reason not to use it.

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Yes, but equating them as some major tool for DPS and mitigation isn't really much. Earthly Star should really just be prioritized for healing in the majority of cases since most fights have some big AoE (it's also really useful on those big pulls still but for healing). The damage is just like an incidental bonus. Shadow Flare just...is. It's just a little bit of extra damage. I don't think anyone is putting it down because "Oh, I need a 5% slow!"

Tanks are here to take DMG and use their GCDs in order to take less damage. Healers on the other hand have a few DPS skills but their job is to keep the party alive. As long they do that there's no reason to demand more. If the healer feels safe enough that there's no threat of wiping then they should DPS, after all it's boring to just sit there and do nothing if no healing is needed.
Everyone asks where did healers go when it was them that made most ppl not feels comfortable with this role and changed to sth else.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Yes, but equating them as some major tool for DPS and mitigation isn't really much. Earthly Star should really just be prioritized for healing in the majority of cases since most fights have some big AoE (it's also really useful on those big pulls still but for healing). The damage is just like an incidental bonus. Shadow Flare just...is. It's just a little bit of extra damage. I don't think anyone is putting it down because "Oh, I need a 5% slow!"

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5% slow, enemies hit less often than they normally would. Damage diverted. That's mitigation by any standard. It's not much, but it's better than nothing. Coupled with a tank CD, it all adds up.

Shadowflare should equate to about 10% of a SCH's DPS in a dungeon give or take depending on how well they time it. That's a pretty healthy amount of damage, the slow is the icing on the cake imho.

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Originally Posted by Rezef

Healers on the other hand have a few DPS skills but their job is to keep the party alive. As long they do that there's no reason to demand more.

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You are free to only demand this from your healers, but what if "keeping the party alive" doesn't require the healer to do anything at all, or only use one action every couple of minutes or so? In HW I healed an expert roulette dungeon by being active only 17% of the time. That's 83% of dungeon time doing nothing at all (well, doing /mandervilledance and /icam). Again, if this is an acceptable level of participation for you, fine. But how would you treat a tank or a DD who would only be active 17% of the time?

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

This entire post is toxic.

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As previously noted, it's incredibly ironic you accuse me of toxicity when you proceed to completely ignore portions of my posts specifically outlining healers aren't expected to DPS when tanks mass pull. I even put the caption in bold. Adding to that, you imply I'm an idiot when I made no personal jabs at you. Hmm, who has a toxic behavior I wonder? Mayhaps you are projecting your frustrates a tough too much.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

Wall to wall pulls are barely even saving any time. In some cases, it's a waste of time and its even worse with a wipe.

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This is objectively false. You can shave upwards of 15+ minutes on dungeons with mass pulls and a semi-decent group. For comparison sake, I did Kugane Castle with friends in ten minutes. When our tank went to sleep, we wound up one who pulled one pack at a time in Kugane Castle. The difference doubled the run time just through small pulling alone. Why? I can top 6,000+ DPS on Samurai with a large enough pull; nearly broke 9,000 on the Temple mega pull. Those numbers are remotely possible on baby packs nor are there nearly enough targets. Not hard to see why it speeds up the run. And like Taika said, even through mega pulls, I can still put out a Holy or Aero III. I just have to pick spots. Granted, I don't expect them either unless I put up Hallowed Ground or Living Dead.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

So, if you want Healers to do DPS, don't pull wall to wall like the idiot tank who wants to stand in AoEs like you are that forces Healers to dedicate even more time to spamming heals. That way you only guarantee Healers don't get a chance to cast any damage spells at all. It's like the stupid tanks who wait until their HP is down to 30% before the activate a cooldown.

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Or the healer who spams Cure II when the tank drops to 95%, which is what this thread is actually about. How you go off on a tangent about standing in AoEs I don't know. Now you're just moving goal posts and not arguing what I actually said.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

However, keeping a tank at 80%+ is a viable strategy. For some classes, you need higher and the reason for that is that's about how much damage the tank buster deals. It's better to keep a tank topped off with smaller heals and avoid the need for the big cd instant cast spells that are for emergencies until when you really need it. That way, the chance of the tank dying to the tank buster drops to 0, even if the tank doesn't pop cds.

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First and foremost, we were discussing dungeon pulls not tank busters. There you go again, moving those goal posts. Regardless, you remain mistaken. Tank busters are 100% scripted damage. You should never overheal the tank so they can avoid using cooldowns. My CDs exist for no other purpose than hard hitting busters. If I can survive the hit with Shadow Wall at 80% HP, it's far more efficient to let me take it and using Essential or Tetra, thus getting the full benefit of their potency. In fact, most Savage strategies involve tanks rotating their immunities to completely ignore said busters. Therefore, any healing you did would be completely useless. The only time you should be topping anyone off is if they won't survive whatever onslaught of mechanics the boss has.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

For starters, the more you pull, the less likely a Healer is going to be able to DPS because they're too busy keeping an idiot like yourself topped off because you pulled wall to wall instead of a small group. There's a reason why they are divided into small groups of usually 3 mobs and why most Healers only DPS in Raids. It's the only chance they ever get to assuming the tank that refuses to dodge AoEs.

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I suppose I must be a rare unicorn who deals damage despite tanks pulling the room or am the tank who doesn't stand in AoEs. It's almost as though you can do large pulls and still play your job correctly. But yes, you continue with those personal jabs. It certainly shows how toxic I am.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

This entire post is toxic. It immediately targets Healers as nothing but heal bots. It was started with a strawman argument accusing Healers of not DPSing. You want to know the reason why it happens though? It's because tanks pull wall to wall so that Healers don't get a chance to DPS at all. They're stuck on a mindless loop of spamming a heal every 3 seconds unless they're a WHM that has benediction up so that they can quickly cast an Aero III or something just so they can DPS with a DoT.

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Did you read any of this thread? Like, at all? Also, what kind of tanks are you getting in duties, because I've gotten tanks that do large pulls in the level 70 dungeons, and can heal and DPS just fine. Obviously, if you have a tank that refuses to use cooldowns, or is not keeping their gear up-to-date, that makes it difficult, and literally no one here is bashing healers that get saddled with such tanks. The people posting in this thread are calling out healers that are, for the most part, completely idle in a duty, only healing every once in a while. Or sometimes, not at all.

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If you want Healers to use their full kits. You need to give them an opportunity to do so.

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A tank using mitigation/cooldowns IS giving healers an opportunity to use their full kit. As are DPS using their AOE skills to kill things faster before the tank runs out of mitigation techniques. WHMs have a mitigation tool built into their kit: Holy. Not to mention, it's still pretty powerful, so to not use it is not only hurting yourself, but the tank as well. ASTs also have Celestial Opposition, available once every 2 minutes. While not as convenient to use as a WHM's Holy, it is still a good technique to mitigate a huge burst of incoming damage during a large pull: Celestial Oppostion mobs > while they're stunned, Essential Diginity or Benefic II your tank.

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Wall to wall pulls are barely even saving any time. In some cases, it's a waste of time and its even worse with a wipe.

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This is false. Case in point: I did a run of Kugane Castle a couple days ago. The tank, although far overgeared for the dungeon (320-330 stuff minus two pieces that were 310), insisted on doing single-pack pulls. They also waited a good 15-20 seconds before each boss for no reason either before deciding to pull. Not sure if something was going on on their end or what, but the entire dungeon took 20 minutes longer than "normal" runs of Kugane Castle where the tank at least does double trash pulls. 20 minutes longer. That's enough for another Expert roulette, since fast and efficient Expert Roulettes are usually 15-20 minutes.

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So, if you want Healers to do DPS, don't pull wall to wall like the idiot tank who wants to stand in AoEs like you are that forces Healers to dedicate even more time to spamming heals. That way you only guarantee Healers don't get a chance to cast any damage spells at all. It's like the stupid tanks who wait until their HP is down to 30% before the activate a cooldown.

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Again. No one is this thread is bashing healers that get saddled with paper tanks that play their job inefficiently. They are arguing against healers that stand around doing absolutely nothing the majority of a duty.

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However, keeping a tank at 80%+ is a viable strategy. For some classes, you need higher and the reason for that is that's about how much damage the tank buster deals. It's better to keep a tank topped off with smaller heals and avoid the need for the big cd instant cast spells that are for emergencies until when you really need it. That way, the chance of the tank dying to the tank buster drops to 0, even if the tank doesn't pop cds.

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In casual content, there is no reason to keep a tank completely topped off 100% of the time. Unless your tank is woefully undergeared, there are no tankbusters present in anything (again, this is barring Savage/some Ex trials content) that would drop a tank from 80% to 0%.

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For starters, the more you pull, the less likely a Healer is going to be able to DPS because they're too busy keeping an idiot like yourself topped off because you pulled wall to wall instead of a small group. There's a reason why they are divided into small groups of usually 3 mobs and why most Healers only DPS in Raids. It's the only chance they ever get to assuming the tank that refuses to dodge AoEs.

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You should probably avoid personal insults if you want people to try and agree with you. Name-calling in a debate/discussion is entirely unnecessary, and all it serves to do is to get people to automatically dismiss and/or disagree with you. You talk about Bourne_Endeavor being the toxic one, yet I see nowhere in their post where they resorted to name-calling. Someone is a pot calling the kettle black here, and I don't think it's the person you quoted.

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You should probably avoid personal insults if you want people to try and agree with you. Name-calling in a debate/discussion is entirely unnecessary, and all it serves to do is to get people to automatically dismiss and/or disagree with you. You talk about Bourne_Endeavor being the toxic one, yet I see nowhere in their post where they resorted to name-calling. Someone is a pot calling the kettle black here, and I don't think it's the person you quoted.

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My post was directed at the OP, but Bourne_Endeavor brought up the point of "always casting" and is something that shows that he/she has probably never mained a healer. A healer's duty is to keep everyone alive. Their overall DPS is insignificant most of the time unless you have dual healers for the current end game content (it's actually better to not have 2 healers and have 1 dedicated healer due to DPS checks, but 2 healers provide more room for error). Your uptime for DPS is only maybe enough for a cast maybe every ten seconds provided your rotation timing does not match the attack timing of the enemy (swiftcast can help a little) combined with the big wall to wall pulls.

Wall to wall pulls will make it so that healers will almost never get a chance to DPS. They are focused on keeping the tank alive and have to watch the spikes from random crits or failure to dodge AoEs. The more enemies there are, the more likely it will happen. As long as you are doing wall to wall pulls, you are overpulling and not giving the healer a chance to DPS and it will force them to pay more attention to your HP than outputting damage. If you want a healer to DPS, stop doing wall to wall pulls so they can focus on something other than the tank's HP or the idiot DPS that runs ahead and pulls in more mobs. Mitigation alone is not enough when you are overpulling because the healer has to spend most of the time casting heals to keep you from dying. The most you save from a competent team is a few seconds unless you have excellent AoE.

Most of the time, you don't and the finishing time is roughly about the same. From my experience, I can finish a lvl 70 clear in roughly the same time as mass pulls, about 20 min average. If you have great AoEs, then it is going to be shorter for mass pulls since it is worth sacrificing healer DPS in exchange for the DPS class being able to AoE.

If you want to dismiss my argument, go for it. I don't really care.

tl;dr - if you want healers to DPS, stop pulling wall to wall. They can stop paying attention to your HP.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

My post was directed at the OP, but Bourne_Endeavor brought up the point of "always casting" and is something that shows that he/she has probably never mained a healer. A healer's duty is to keep everyone alive. Their overall DPS is insignificant most of the time unless you have dual healers for the current end game content (it's actually better to not have 2 healers and have 1 dedicated healer due to DPS checks, but 2 healers provide more room for error). Your uptime for DPS is only maybe enough for a cast maybe every ten seconds provided your rotation timing does not match the attack timing of the enemy (swiftcast can help a little) combined with the big wall to wall pulls.

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All of that makes me wonder if we are indeed playing the same game.

As a healer main, I can vouch for "Always Be Casting" as a gameplay philosophy. I practice it whether I'm in a dungeon or in Omega Savage; the important decision is simply whether the next spell needs to be a heal or barrier vs. a DoT refresh or a nuke.

Also, why the excessive focus on mass pulls? Sure, more healing is necessary in these situations, but a lot of these healers do next to nothing even when healing requirements are low. Going by some of the responses around here, big pulls = "I have no time to DPS" (they usually do if the tank is cooperating, but it's not a coincidence that many non-DPS healers are inexperienced in using their CDs and oGCD abilities efficiently); small pulls = "I shouldn't have to DPS, it's not my job/I'm entitled to slack." There's no winning.

On a final note with mass pulls, when the tank and/or the DPS are weak or unskilled, there is a point beyond which they become less efficient. I think most of us are referencing business as usual, not the worst case scenarios where you're stuck with a party that both pulls everything and sucks at AoE.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

Their overall DPS is insignificant most of the time unless you have dual healers for the current end game content

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When I heal, I out DPS the tank in every dungeon I do, and occasionally the DPS as well. Healer DPS is NOT insignificant.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

My post was directed at the OP, but Bourne_Endeavor brought up the point of "always casting" and is something that shows that he/she has probably never mained a healer. A healer's duty is to keep everyone alive. Their overall DPS is insignificant most of the time unless you have dual healers for the current end game content (it's actually better to not have 2 healers and have 1 dedicated healer due to DPS checks, but 2 healers provide more room for error). Your uptime for DPS is only maybe enough for a cast maybe every ten seconds provided your rotation timing does not match the attack timing of the enemy (swiftcast can help a little) combined with the big wall to wall pulls.

Wall to wall pulls will make it so that healers will almost never get a chance to DPS. They are focused on keeping the tank alive and have to watch the spikes from random crits or failure to dodge AoEs. The more enemies there are, the more likely it will happen. As long as you are doing wall to wall pulls, you are overpulling and not giving the healer a chance to DPS and it will force them to pay more attention to your HP than outputting damage. If you want a healer to DPS, stop doing wall to wall pulls so they can focus on something other than the tank's HP or the idiot DPS that runs ahead and pulls in more mobs. Mitigation alone is not enough when you are overpulling because the healer has to spend most of the time casting heals to keep you from dying. The most you save from a competent team is a few seconds unless you have excellent AoE.

Most of the time, you don't and the finishing time is roughly about the same. From my experience, I can finish a lvl 70 clear in roughly the same time as mass pulls, about 20 min average. If you have great AoEs, then it is going to be shorter for mass pulls since it is worth sacrificing healer DPS in exchange for the DPS class being able to AoE.

If you want to dismiss my argument, go for it. I don't really care.

tl;dr - if you want healers to DPS, stop pulling wall to wall. They can stop paying attention to your HP.

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I was going to disect this and point out everything wrong with it but I have a headache so time for the abridged version...

You say healer DPS is insignificant "most of the time". My DPS on WHM in particular is better than virtually every tank I get in 4 man and at least half my DPS because WHM shines on these big pulls you're complaining about.

Do I sometimes still need to spam Cure II? Sure, there are always going to be bad tanks out there. It is not the majority of the time certainly.

Your problem isn't tanks pulling big it's you not using CD's and oGCD heals properly and you admit that in your post. You're hording these amazing abilities "just in case" things go south... things almost never do go south though. They are wasted. If Assize, Tetra and Bene sit on CD for more than 10 seconds outside of specific situations I feel like facepalming because I'm wasting time and MP on GCD heals.

In summary don't give poor advice about something you barely understand to people who love that same thing.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

Wall to wall pulls will make it so that healers will almost never get a chance to DPS.

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I can link umpteen logs where I'm managing to push very significant DPS on some of the nastier pulls these dungeons have to offer (EG 6K DPS on Ala Mhigo double gorilla packs + dogs).

Not all healers can stomach throwing out holys on a pull like that, but to say that it doesn't give us the opportunity is a fallacy.

I'd also add that if you're not saving time with large pulls, your group simply isn't aoeing hard enough. The run linked above took 15 minutes total, I contributed over 20% of the total damage done despite some brutal pulls and very skilled DPS. On a more typical pug run, I can contribute 30%+ and again, have the logs to back that up.

In short, big pulls doesn't necessarily require you to sacrifice healer DPS. It's still very dooable and mightily effective. Until the other thread throws a decent SCH log at me, I'm firmly of the stance that WHM is the undisputed champ in these situations though and that's something that does need to be kept in mind.

It's also worth reminding that this sort of damage isn't something you should expect from your healer. Rather it's something your healer can choose to aspire to and aim for.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

My post was directed at the OP, but Bourne_Endeavor brought up the point of "always casting" and is something that shows that he/she has probably never mained a healer.

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Hi, I main a healer, and "always be casting" is a good ideal to aim for. I don't always hit it. Sometimes that's due to circumstances out of my control (this go sideways and MP becomes an issue), and sometimes it's just that my skill level isn't as high as some other healers.

But it's still a good idea and I try to do it. In a typical run, there is little to no reason to be idle for any significant length of time.

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A healer's duty is to keep everyone alive.

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Nobody is saying otherwise.

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Their overall DPS is insignificant most of the time unless you have dual healers for the current end game content (it's actually better to not have 2 healers and have 1 dedicated healer due to DPS checks, but 2 healers provide more room for error). Your uptime for DPS is only maybe enough for a cast maybe every ten seconds provided your rotation timing does not match the attack timing of the enemy (swiftcast can help a little) combined with the big wall to wall pulls.

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Define "insignificant". If it takes you 10 minutes of combat time to kill everything, adding 10% group DPS in a dungeon (which is a very achievable target, especially for WHM) will take nearly a minute off. That doesn't seem insignificant to me.

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Wall to wall pulls will make it so that healers will almost never get a chance to DPS. They are focused on keeping the tank alive and have to watch the spikes from random crits or failure to dodge AoEs. The more enemies there are, the more likely it will happen.

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If you are actually using every cast to keep people alive because of incoming damage, that's fine. The vast majority of people in this thread are simply saying "DPS instead of doing nothing/overhealing". You can cancel a cast and switch to a heal very quickly if someone decides to stand in something, especially with how many oGCD heals are available at high level.

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As long as you are doing wall to wall pulls, you are overpulling and not giving the healer a chance to DPS and it will force them to pay more attention to your HP than outputting damage.

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Overpulling means pulling too much. If the group can handle that many mobs, it's not overpulling. Last night I got this DRK who did big pulls (after asking if we wanted them, which is always a nice gesture) and was well nigh invulnerable. Seriously, it felt like I was healing Superman, he was taking so little damage for the number of mobs. Gear and cooldown usage matter a lot here, but that guy was in no way overpulling.

When I get someone like that, I count my blessings and blow up everything in sight. I mean, he's playing well enough to give me the openings to contribute some DPS. The least I can do is take them.

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If you want a healer to DPS, stop doing wall to wall pulls so they can focus on something other than the tank's HP or the idiot DPS that runs ahead and pulls in more mobs.

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And again, if people are standing in bad, your DPS window will shrink or close. Everyone agrees with that. If DPS run ahead like idiots and pull, just let them die unless the tank decides to intervene. They'll learn.

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Mitigation alone is not enough when you are overpulling because the healer has to spend most of the time casting heals to keep you from dying. The most you save from a competent team is a few seconds unless you have excellent AoE.

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In most of the experts, one pack hits for so little damage that on a geared tank, Largess Regen can heal it. Two packs shouldn't require spam healing unless you or the tank is doing something wrong. It can definitely get sketchier after that depending on gear, but letting the DPS hit 6 things at once with AoE instead of 3 is a big boost (and more so when you can Holy spam).

Honestly, people need to stop trying to make this about something it's not. Nobody expects you to deal with people constantly eating all avoidable damage and still put up amazing DPS. It's not happening. The expectation is that you won't twiddle your thumbs and will contribute as opportunity allows.

That's the same expectation placed on every other role.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

My post was directed at the OP, but Bourne_Endeavor brought up the point of "always casting" and is something that shows that he/she has probably never mained a healer. A healer's duty is to keep everyone alive. Their overall DPS is insignificant most of the time unless you have dual healers for the current end game content (it's actually better to not have 2 healers and have 1 dedicated healer due to DPS checks, but 2 healers provide more room for error). Your uptime for DPS is only maybe enough for a cast maybe every ten seconds provided your rotation timing does not match the attack timing of the enemy (swiftcast can help a little) combined with the big wall to wall pulls.

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I have cleared Extreme Primals and Savage floors on healer. Have you? Likewise, I frequently play healer in dungeons and have no issues healing and DPSing regardless of the pull size. The "Always Be Casting" motto references you doing something, be it spam healing due to a mega pull or DPSing. Honestly, the fact you immediately deflect the discussion to whether I "main" healer for easy mode dungeons only shows you have no argument and just don't like people disagreeing with your biased perception of healing.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

Wall to wall pulls will make it so that healers will almost never get a chance to DPS. They are focused on keeping the tank alive and have to watch the spikes from random crits or failure to dodge AoEs. The more enemies there are, the more likely it will happen. As long as you are doing wall to wall pulls, you are overpulling and not giving the healer a chance to DPS and it will force them to pay more attention to your HP than outputting damage. If you want a healer to DPS, stop doing wall to wall pulls so they can focus on something other than the tank's HP or the idiot DPS that runs ahead and pulls in more mobs. Mitigation alone is not enough when you are overpulling because the healer has to spend most of the time casting heals to keep you from dying. The most you save from a competent team is a few seconds unless you have excellent AoE.

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Stop projecting and please actually read the responses people have made. Nowhere has anyone defended tanks or DPS standing in avoidable damage nor have we insisted healers must DPS above all else. If you bothered to read my original post-- the one you said was so toxic-- you would have seen I never claimed healers need to DPS through mass pulls but need to be doing something. If they can only manage Cure spam, they're still following the ABCs. You seem to be under some silly impression tanks who pull the room have no idea what they're doing. Standing in AoEs and mass pulling are mutual exclusive things.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

Most of the time, you don't and the finishing time is roughly about the same. From my experience, I can finish a lvl 70 clear in roughly the same time as mass pulls, about 20 min average. If you have great AoEs, then it is going to be shorter for mass pulls since it is worth sacrificing healer DPS in exchange for the DPS class being able to AoE.

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Really? Care to explain why my average runs tend to be 10-15 minutes? I've done some of the 3.x dungeons in under nine minutes when they were still relevant. Once again, you are objectively wrong. Large pulls and a "competent team" overall speeds up the process dramatically. That's why its so ubiquitous these days.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Really? Care to explain why my average runs tend to be 10-15 minutes? I've done some of the 3.x dungeons in under nine minutes when they were still relevant. Once again, you are objectively wrong. Large pulls and a "competent team" overall speeds up the process dramatically. That's why its so ubiquitous these days.

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I DPS when I heal and I average about 15 min a run (not the best dungeon dps by any means, but am SCH). Then when I tank and no healer dps, the runs take on average 20+ min.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I DPS when I heal and I average about 15 min a run (not the best dungeon dps by any means, but am SCH). Then when I tank and no healer dps, the runs take on average 20+ min.

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U cant just take the healer not dpsing for consideration. U have to take the other dps and party make up. If wanna have a real comparison do 2 of the same dungeon with the same ppl, one with healer dps and another with healer not dps. Same ppl, same gear, same party make up and then tell the difference

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Originally Posted by Myrhn

U cant just take the healer not dpsing for consideration. U have to take the other dps and party make up. If wanna have a real comparison do 2 of the same dungeon with the same ppl, one with healer dps and another with healer not dps. Same ppl, same gear, same party make up and then tell the difference

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Have to agree with this, you can't just take two completely different parties and assume the healer DPS alone made the difference.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Have to agree with this, you can't just take two completely different parties and assume the healer DPS alone made the difference.

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Not necessarily true actually...if you have a special faerie that tells you the average damage etc...cough then you can easily see if the DPS are doing around the same amount as the previous run etc. So you don't necessarily need to run with the exact same people. The combination of DPS can be the close to the same even with different people and if you have that special faerie you can see the % contribution.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Have to agree with this, you can't just take two completely different parties and assume the healer DPS alone made the difference.

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Fortunately, I have an example where the only change in party comp was the tank. The difference? Over fifteen minutes because one tank pulled everything while the other did one pack at a time. While not a healer DPS example, it works to show you aren't just saving 1-2 minutes but several.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Not necessarily true actually...if you have a special faerie that tells you the average damage etc...cough then you can easily see if the DPS are doing around the same amount as the previous run etc. So you don't necessarily need to run with the exact same people. The combination of DPS can be the close to the same even with different people and if you have that special faerie you can see the % contribution.

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Yes, but we don't know if this person has that special fairy ( ;D ) what the comps were, etc. A blanket statement of "well in one run I DPSed and in the other run I didn't so it was the healer DPS that made the difference" tells us basically nothing. Certainly SOME of the time saved was because of healer DPS, but how MUCH of it?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Fortunately, I have an example where the only change in party comp was the tank. The difference? Over fifteen minutes because one tank pulled everything while the other did one pack at a time. While not a healer DPS example, it works to show you aren't just saving 1-2 minutes but several.

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This is really dependent on comp in my experience. If you have 2 DPS with terrible AoE then you're probably actually losing time as opposed to saving it by making big pulls.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

This is really dependent on comp in my experience. If you have 2 DPS with terrible AoE then you're probably actually losing time as opposed to saving it by making big pulls.

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While this is an issue in leveling content, every class 60+ has potent AOE moves.