As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

SCH

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I made a post in another thread similar to the SCH story.

She was level 60 and did nothing an entire boss fight. I asked her to DPS instead of doing nothing and she left. Her fairy was healing the tank well enough, I'm not going to carry dead weight.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

You haven't looked then.

Basically all of us who say Healers should DPS almost always make a point that it is a healers choice to not dps, they should not be treated poorly for it and while its inefficient, if they aren't comfortable with it than it is fine.

However lazy healers are a whole other story.

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I said "Not many" not "no one at all."
Um... did you read any of the other stuff I said that is just me agreeing with you? I understand and agree with your points, I promise not everyone is here for an argument (or a repeating lecture lol).

But I also had to admit that I'm not good at explaining myself, so I'm not surprised I confused you somewhere. D: Sorry about that. I'll just take my leave before I manage to make it worse lol.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I'm not going to carry dead weight.

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Not gonna lie. SCH is the easiest class to dps. So it does cringe me from time to time when they don't at-least set up dots during the down times. That's why I try to keep up dots on the AST so I'll at-least maintain some degree of DPS while im healing.

And it's not even just that. I've seen SCH's use Eye for an Eye. But never Virus. I've also seen cases where a SCH was yelled at for not dpsing and just over healing and his response was: "I'm trying to get a crit aldo on the tank".


It's especially common to see an AST to never use Disable, synastry, and Light Speed. Or even gravity on adds because of the mana cost, despite the many ways to get around it. <<<Light Speed/Lum. Aether + Celestial OP>>>

Meanwhile WHM's despite their heavier mana requirement. I still see them actively dpsing and healing + keeping up HOTS. I've hardly seen a case where a WHM would sit on half mana just waiting for it to recover.

In all honesty, I believe a healers job is to support the party. So if the party is healed up and I have downtime, I will do as much damage as possible. If I see (I'm an astrologian) a mage, bard or sometimes a paladin's mp low, I will give them an Ewer. So while I do believe a healer should do damage when there's downtime, I won't force it onto my co-healers because that's [B]my[B] opinion.

I main as a healer and do my fair share of damage. I have 2 and a bit bars that have skills that I actively use throughout a dungeon (60/expert). If I go, like I did today, on my Dragoon, and the healer does squat all damage in 260/70 gear, then I'll just straight up leave. I have to worry about rotations, movement, damage etc... so I'll be damned if I'm going to carry someone who is using a max of 5 skills.

I will not tolerate leeches and I'm more than happy to find something else to do for 30 minutes than sit in a party with a lazy healer. Same goes for lazy DPS when I'm healing.

AST here and just your average healer, i help with a bit of dps too, couple of gravity here and there

pre gravity level i just cast combust 1 and 2 on all enemy and yet sometimes i got someone in party "notify" me if i ever going to help dps or not........

i mean, i understand combust effect is minimal if you compare to all those sparkling skill but cmon......

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Originally Posted by gumas

AST here and just your average healer, i help with a bit of dps too, couple of gravity here and there

pre gravity level i just cast combust 1 and 2 on all enemy and yet sometimes i got someone in party "notify" me if i ever going to help dps or not........

i mean, i understand combust effect is minimal if you compare to all those sparkling skill but cmon......

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Are you not using CS when you cast your DoTs? No Malefic I/II when possible? That might be why the comments.

If you're using CS and nuking between heals and DoT refreshes as you're able, then disregard that kind of criticism.

One of the things I enjoy about running heals in expert is I can spend about 90% of an expert roulette in cleric stance dpsing as long as the tank is competent. It's more fun and makes the run go faster.

I hate when tanks don't use their kits...I had a tank in Gubal HM only do 1 pack pulls, no CDs, no DoTs, just Abyssal Drain not even Dark Arts'd or anything. I was DPSing and noticed that the blm was doing Fire III > Blizz III and the bard wasn't multi dotting so as a Sch I spread my DoTs with Shadow Flare and did most of the DPS. I hate when the tank and the group isn't competent, they weren't under geared most of em were at least ilvl 245-255 I actually pulled threat which made me shake my head.

By most of the DPS I did 44% of the overall dmg...rest of my group fell short so I'm glad us healers can at least help when a group is struggling we are in no way carries but with our DPS we make an impact especially in below average DF groups.

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Originally Posted by Awful

I hate when tanks don't use their kits...I had a tank in Gubal HM only do 1 pack pulls, no CDs, no DoTs, just Abyssal Drain not even Dark Arts'd or anything. I was DPSing and noticed that the blm was doing Fire III > Blizz III and the bard wasn't multi dotting so as a Sch I spread my DoTs with Shadow Flare and did most of the DPS. I hate when the tank and the group isn't competent, they weren't under geared most of em were at least ilvl 245-255 I actually pulled threat which made me shake my head.

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Here I was thinking I had it bad when I pulled aggro off the tank with Gravity after Balancing my Summoner.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

That's not even close to what I said, or meant. I have never once said that anyone should play as well as me. I said that zero DPS is not acceptable. And that ZERO ZERO ZERO DPS makes them bad at healing.

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Except with all of the evidence about how this game is designed and the quotes mentioned in-game so far, it actually is perfectly acceptable. Maybe for the people of your side of the argument it isn't, but don't act like the fanbase that holds this opinion is how the developers designed the game when everything stated by Yoshi and in-game states otherwise as mentioned in my previous post.

This is a fan opinion on what is mandatory, not how the game is intended to be designed. And honestly, it's kind of hilarious you're using terms like "not acceptable" when you can accomplish a run without it just fine, it really goes to show how overly serious you are taking this.

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If you do just a bit of DPS and are trying to not be a lazy butt wipe, I'm a happy camper. If you want to do nothing for 30 minutes, go play something else.

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Because people healing = not wanting to play. Okay. lol With how motivated you are about this argument, perhaps you should in fact play something else if it bothers you this much that you want people to stop playing?

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Yes, I fully realize that Hall of the Novice places emphasis on Healing. I never, ever, ever said it didn't.

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You stated that "It's not outside their initial role.", which is in fact false. As stated previously, the game itself states, once again, that their primary or "initial role" is to heal. You can't interpret this in any other way just to suit your argument, that is what the game itself explains to you.

https://i.imgur.com/NawXEHz.png

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which means get off your butt and do some DPS when you have nothing else to do.

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No, It does not mean that at all, and once again you and people like you try to spin the words to mean what you wish them to be instead of what they actually are.

https://i.imgur.com/ziZgMXr.png

How do you go from "may be time to weave in some offensive magicks" to "get off your butt and do some DPS". It's literally just implying that "you can potentially DPS if you have the time", nothing more.

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The difference between you and I, is that I saw a problem, and addressed the problem by doing it myself. And you know it's a problem and pretend it's not a problem and get mad at anyone who says it's a problem.

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I find it quite amusing that you're saying I'm upset when weren't you the one freaking out several times with caps just because of a different view and implying I was "missing your point"?

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OMFG, you are totally, AGAIN 100% missing the point. We are NOT TALKING ABOUT OPTIMAL DPS HERE. We're saying DO JUST A LITTLE BIT PRETTY PLEASE.

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The irony continues when you've missed my point several times in this discussion, choosing to ignore said point only because it differs from your own view.

I'm not "pretending" it isn't a problem, that's you trying to force your opinion as factually correct when it isn't. I could make the same argument about you "pretending" that this game is 100% designed with Healer DPS in mind and that you also "pretending" that if you don't DPS as healer, you are terrible and should play a different game.

Sorry, I do not agree with you, I do not agree with Reddit on this view either, nor this thread when Yoshi-P and the quotes in-game have said all the otherwise, including the conjurer storyline which so many people misconstrue as a Healer not wanting to DPS, when it literally was about her just using her life energy instead.

And as one final note, you seem to have me confused here. I've been a capped WHM doing DPS since before you ever played this game, and as a matter of fact, I DPS'd before I knew it was considered "mandatory" by the those of a certain opinion because I enjoyed the immense damage I do in AoE situations, and to this day I still do DPS when I can.

This is my final comment on this issue as I've covered all of the arguments I wish to have, people will upvote whom they wish and that's fine, but I'd like people to remember that their view is what they perceive the game to be and not what the game is intending by neither the devs, nor Yoshi-P. If you don't believe me, go back and read my previous posts in this thread with links to what has been said in game and out of the game.

Until this game is designed with Healer DPS in mind, it will continue to be an optional bonus for those who are capable of doing it, enjoy doing it, or wanting to play as optimal as they can. It will not be "mandatory" until then, and if you're a Healer that doesn't DPS outside of Raid content and keep everyone alive, you are not a bad Healer, you just aren't the most optimal Healer, but you aren't bad and don't let anyone else tell you otherwise. You can strive to DPS someday if you so wish as it helps, but don't ever feel it's mandatory outside of Raids or certain Party Finders.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Except with all of the evidence about how this game is designed and the quotes mentioned in-game so far, it actually is perfectly acceptable.

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When you're arguing about what the game's design supports, it doesn't matter what Yoshi P has said in an interview or what in game tips say. What matters is how the actual game works: how much damage is incoming in fights, how much potency do healing skills have etc. The actual design of the game - the game itself, its content, abilities - strongly support healer DPS. If they didn't, we wouldn't have this "argument" in the first place.

When we look at the game's design, there is no sensible argument against healer DPS, but there are many for it. It literally makes no sense to not DPS as a healer apart from very specific circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Taika

When you're arguing about what the game's design supports, it doesn't matter what Yoshi P has said in an interview or what in game tips say. What matters is how the actual game works: how much damage is incoming in fights, how much potency do healing skills have etc. The actual design of the game - the game itself, its content, abilities - strongly support healer DPS. If they didn't, we wouldn't have this "argument" in the first place.

When we look at the game's design, there is no sensible argument against healer DPS, but there are many for it. It literally makes no sense to not DPS as a healer apart from very specific circumstances.

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The thing with that is, as you said, "What matters is how the actual game works", the actual design of game itself is not designed around Healer DPS. It actually matters quite a bit what Yoshi-P has said because he literally explained that no part of the game has been designed with Healer DPS in mind. That means there is no party content in the game designed for you to take part in the battle, so your point that the game is strongly supporting Healer DPS isn't true.

Additional DPS is better and will always be better, but the game isn't designed with it in mind and thus it is not supported in the sense you are claiming.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

The thing with that is, as you said, "What matters is how the actual game works", the actual design of game itself is not designed around Healer DPS. It actually matters quite a bit what Yoshi-P has said because he literally explained that no part of the game has been designed with Healer DPS in mind. That means there is no party content in the game designed for you to take part in the battle, so your point that the game is strongly supporting Healer DPS isn't true.

Additional DPS is better and will always be better, but the game isn't designed with it in mind and thus it is not supported in the sense you are claiming.

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The game is designed to support healer DPS because all healer jobs have a lot of DPS skills (and Cleric Stance). WHM and SCH also have DPS abilities that directly support their primary role in healing, damage mitigation and MP recovery (Holy, Assize, Shadowflare, Energy Drain). The incoming damage in fights isn't high enough to keep healers busy if they only heal (and it wouldn't make sense to claim that healers are designed just to stand still most of the time when any other job isn't). Additionally, the hardest content in the game requires healer DPS for clears when it's added - no matter what Yoshi said. There are also mechanics in casual dungeons that are clearly designed with DPSing healer in mind (for example in Antitower when DDs are turned into dolls - if tanks and healers won't DPS them and instead just "heal" and "tank", the whole party dies, and yes it's 2 DDs every time, it's scripted). These all prove that the game design in fact strongly supports DPS as a part of healer's role.

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Originally Posted by Taika

The game is designed to support healer DPS because all healer jobs have a lot of DPS skills (and Cleric Stance). WHM and SCH also have DPS abilities that directly support their primary role in healing, damage mitigation and MP recovery (Holy, Assize, Shadowflare, Energy Drain). The incoming damage in fights isn't high enough to keep healers busy if they only heal (and it wouldn't make sense to claim that healers are designed just to stand still most of the time when any other job isn't). Additionally, the hardest content in the game requires healer DPS for clears when it's added - no matter what Yoshi said. There are also mechanics in casual dungeons that are clearly designed with DPSing healer in mind (for example in Antitower when DDs are turned into dolls - if tanks and healers won't DPS them and instead just "heal" and "tank", the whole party dies). These all prove that the game design in fact strongly supports DPS as a part of healer's role.

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Those moves were designed for you to be able to handle the singleplayer content as without them, Healers wouldn't be able to progress through the story. Once again, it does very much matter what Yoshi is stating here because you are making the claim that because Healers have DPS options, that means they are intended for party content, except that it's been confirmed on two separate occasions that the game is not designed around Healer's DPS options in party content. With the incoming damage, that could very well just be because this game has a lot of casual aspects designed in mind. I've ran into many Healers as DRK that even struggle with the current DPS in place.

As far as Assize goes, you could very well make the claim that it's designed for a WHM to be able to handle FATEs if they run out of MP, or that it's designed so you don't just spam Holy in FATEs as Holy was nerfed once again before Assize. Holy was also nerfed initially because to "ease the burden on Healers who feel they have to DPS", something along those lines. With Antitower, that's designed for 2 random people, not specifically DPS, it's just an option that can happen. I don't think that demonstrates your message that it "strongly supports DPS as a part of healer's role.".

There really is nothing to outright support your claim as of this current moment.

Literally the way every single content in this game is designed and played supports healer DPS and nothing supports only healing. You can try to go out of your way to try to find alternative explanations for it (like, I don't know, aliens?), but as we all know the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. :)

Good lord, not again.

Can't be bothered to rehash this again so soon.

There's plenty of information and opinion in the previous 40+ pages of discussion that explains why healers who refuse to contribute DPS to a party for reasons other than difficulty meeting the healing requirement or lack of experience are playing selfishly and suboptimally.

That bit about Assize and FATEs...I can't. Pass.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

https://i.imgur.com/ziZgMXr.png

How do you go from "may be time to weave in some offensive magicks" to "get off your butt and do some DPS". It's literally just implying that "you can potentially DPS if you have the time", nothing more.

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This caption defeats your own argument. If the group isn't in need of healing, you're expressly being told to contribute DPS, albeit in a roundabout manner. "If you have the time" is intended to imply just that: do you have time to DPS or will another hard hitting mechanic happen? If the answer to the latter is no, you should be DPSing. The Conjurer questline may as well beat you over the head with the sentiment of "don't just heal!" That being said, you can certainly refuse to stance dance to your fancy. Just don't expect me to dodge aoes or use my full toolkit. After all, why should I go beyond the basics of my job requirements if you aren't going to be arsed to? People accuse healers refusing to DPS as lazy because more often than not they are jumping around or just standing still-- literally doing nothing until the tank takes the smallest bit of damage.

Doing AV as a healer I find it very difficult to DPS with all the status ailments and people standing in stupid :P

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

And honestly, it's kind of hilarious you're using terms like "not acceptable" when you can accomplish a run without it just fine,

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I feel like your other points were handled but nobody seemed to point out this line I don't think. This is an incredibly harmful view to the player base- shoot for the floor. You can have a dps or 2 afk the whole run and still have it completed within the 90 minute time frame, but does that make it right because it was accomplished? It's a silly concept to defend the idea of be the worst you can be because we'll still win.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Literally the way every single content in this game is designed and played supports healer DPS and nothing supports only healing. You can try to go out of your way to try to find alternative explanations for it (like, I don't know, aliens?), but as we all know the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. :)

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Actually, I could very well make that same argument with you. The difference here is that I'm using actual facts and you're trying to use conjecture, and in response to your conjecture, I'm throwing conjecture right back at you. Nothing you are saying is absolute as the game is literally not being designed with Healer DPS in mind. Just because you feel what you're saying is true doesn't mean it actually is and you don't have the proof to make such claims.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Good lord, not again.

Can't be bothered to rehash this again so soon.

There's plenty of information and opinion in the previous 40+ pages of discussion that explains why healers who refuse to contribute DPS to a party for reasons other than difficulty meeting the healing requirement or lack of experience are playing selfishly and suboptimally.

That bit about Assize and FATEs...I can't. Pass.

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And I've covered most of those and have also explained why it's merely a bonus and not mandatory, yet the "For DPS" side of the argument keeps reusing their argument because they, as you've just proven right now, cannot stand anyone that doesn't agree with their view on this aspect of the game. No, I'm not going to agree Healers that do this are selfish, I'd honestly argue those who consider it "selfish" to not Healer DPS in a 4 man dungeon to be selfishly dictating how someone plays, even if they are going with the intended design of the game. I've seen time and time again on this topic that if someone disagrees, that a number of people will come into the conversation to tell you your view is wrong and that you should conform to their view instead of merely stating this is how you can potentially be optimal, and if they disagree, it's met with scorn.

So go ahead, pass, but all this is showing is another example of someone being on their high horse because their view is the most correct and all others should conform to it and if they don't, they're "bad players".

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

This caption defeats your own argument. If the group isn't in need of healing, you're expressly being told to contribute DPS, albeit in a roundabout manner. "If you have the time" is intended to imply just that: do you have time to DPS or will another hard hitting mechanic happen? If the answer to the latter is no, you should be DPSing. The Conjurer questline may as well beat you over the head with the sentiment of "don't just heal!" That being said, you can certainly refuse to stance dance to your fancy. Just don't expect me to dodge aoes or use my full toolkit. After all, why should I go beyond the basics of my job requirements if you aren't going to be arsed to? People accuse healers refusing to DPS as lazy because more often than not they are jumping around or just standing still-- literally doing nothing until the tank takes the smallest bit of damage.

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If it said "If you have the time, you should throw in offensive magicks" or if it said "If you have the time, you must use offensive magicks in-between Healing to properly fulfill your role.", then it would imply what you are saying it would imply. However, it doesn't. It states "you may". They carefully worded that for a reason I'm certain, because with dialogue like that It's continuing how it is an optional thing, even when you have the time they still are referring to it as "may". It also goes along with a lot of the quotes I've posted earlier by Yoshi-P in this thread with how he views Healer DPS in this game.

To be quite honest, Healer is the only class in this game that literally is doing two separate roles on a consistent basis, and you probably will disagree with this, but I do not consider standing in AoEs the same as a Healer going out of their way to Cleric Stance and DPS. All classes have to avoid AoEs, including the Healer so that isn't a proper comparison, and as a DRK main, I consider my role to be achieving enmity and using my cooldowns at the right time, the primary role. DPS's primary role is to DPS, and Healer is to heal as stated in-game and well, with common sense, the title "Healer".

When you start going above this, which is honestly nice and I've been doing it ever since I was a fledgling Dragoon in this game, you start using abilities that do generally what are outside of your primary role, like say Second Wind on Bard that can generally help, or in certain fights a Keen Flurry to help mitigate 15ish% damage from a single attack, this is you going above and beyond your typical role in a party. In Healer's case, they generally have to go above and beyond far more than any other role in the game because of the potential of their DPS, it's generally why people praise Healer DPS because it can speed up a run several minutes if done properly and with a semi experienced Tank and DPS. It's also why you never see someone complain if a Bard didn't pop Second Wind when it could've kept them alive in certain moments.

With all of that said, this goes back to my original point. If you are achieving your most important aspect of your role, with the way this game is balanced, then you aren't being a "bad" player, just not the most optimal one. Until this game is designed with Healer DPS in mind, it will remain that way.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I feel like your other points were handled but nobody seemed to point out this line I don't think. This is an incredibly harmful to the player base view- shoot for the floor. You can have a dps or 2 afk the whole run and still have it completed within the 90 minute time frame, but does that make it right because it was accomplished? It's a silly concept to defend the idea of be the worst you can be because we'll still win.

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Healer's aren't "AFK" if they are keeping everyone alive throughout the run and I feel that is an over exaggeration and a commonly used argument in this case. What happens when you AFK as DPS? Nothing dies. What happens when you AFK as Healer? You and the party die. That is an AFK Healer.

And this slippery slope argument that a Healer continuing to Heal is the same as a DPS sitting in AoEs and taking 90 minutes to finish the run is positively an improper comparison. Not only does none of that argument fit, but let's say for a second I'll entertain the argument for the sake of debate. People who are "bad" at the game will continue to remain that way regardless of the heckling done by players like yourself or others.

I've never seen in this game someone being told to DPS as Healer and they just start doing it, so at least in my experience, merely telling someone they can DPS in a run will almost never get them to do anything and thus for the sake of this improper argument I have to very clearly say, there is nothing to fear.

Your concept of "worst" is also a very black and white view and once again the issue I have with this thread and this argument. You are either good or terrible if you do or don't DPS as Healer and that goes to show why It's a flawed view in itself. There is no in-between, there is no "Well he's really good at healing, but I wish he would DPS." It's either you're bad for not doing it or not. No other role has this kind of criticism, and it's only because of the potency.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I feel like your other points were handled but nobody seemed to point out this line I don't think. This is an incredibly harmful view to the player base- shoot for the floor. You can have a dps or 2 afk the whole run and still have it completed within the 90 minute time frame, but does that make it right because it was accomplished? It's a silly concept to defend the idea of be the worst you can be because we'll still win.

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You hit the nail on the head, here.

The attitude of "no one died, so I must be good" is deceptively toxic. The bar for victory in most content is so low that anyone should be ashamed to use this sort of excuse to justify poor gameplay.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Snip.

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If I come across as dismissive, it's because we've covered exhaustively the circumstances under which a healer may be fairly expected not to contribute DPS, and the only circumstance in question, at least for me, is the healer who flat out refuses to do it because they don't want to or don't believe it to be part of their job.

As choosing to play suboptimally in a group setting is a selfish decision, I call it out as such.

You're resurrecting a line of discussion that has been beaten to death very recently, and I would be all for continued constructive discussion if something new were brought to the table, but I'm just seeing more of what we went over in the previous pages, and again, with due consideration for a healer's obligation to heal taking center stage.

I don't know why this is still an argument. The game IS designed with healers doing damage in mind, otherwise boss damage wouldn't be so low, and if the game wasn't designed for healers to do damage, then healers would have so much more to heal, which they don't. People that refuse this are just being stubborn or don't understand that this game is based around all jobs and all roles having to push out as much damage as possible in order to be playing efficiently. This Kokonoe person arguing that healers don't have to damage deal probably hasn't done any savage raiding or has any experience outside of normal dungeons in this game, so they don't have the experience with the game needed to be able to so strongly defend their point.

It's not an argument, really. The only people complaining about the fact that using Cleric Stance is necessary to be a better player are just making excuses for their inability/unwillingness to contribute during downtime.

Can only imagine how little they contribute to groups in real life, lmfao.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Actually, I could very well make that same argument with you. The difference here is that I'm using actual facts and you're trying to use conjecture, and in response to your conjecture, I'm throwing conjecture right back at you. Nothing you are saying is absolute as the game is literally not being designed with Healer DPS in mind. Just because you feel what you're saying is true doesn't mean it actually is and you don't have the proof to make such claims.

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As said, the game itself is the proof. The game itself does not support non-DPS healer play, but it does support DPS healer play in many ways. This is a fact and I've given many practical examples of it, some of which you have tried to find more and less far-fetched alternative explanations for. It's the objective truth that DPSing as a healer is the most effective way to play the role (apart from some specific circumstances) and the game itself supports this playstyle (otherwise it wouldn't be the most effective way).

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Healer's aren't "AFK" if they are keeping everyone alive throughout the run and I feel that is an over exaggeration and a commonly used argument in this case. What happens when you AFK as DPS? Nothing dies. What happens when you AFK as Healer? You and the party die. That is an AFK Healer.

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No, healers can keep everyone alive and still be literally inactive 83% of the dungeon. Like I did here. I was doing /icam and /mandervilledance and no one died.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

If it said "If you have the time, you should throw in offensive magicks" or if it said "If you have the time, you must use offensive magicks in-between Healing to properly fulfill your role.", then it would imply what you are saying it would imply. However, it doesn't. It states "you may". They carefully worded that for a reason I'm certain, because with dialogue like that It's continuing how it is an optional thing, even when you have the time they still are referring to it as "may". It also goes along with a lot of the quotes I've posted earlier by Yoshi-P in this thread with how he views Healer DPS in this game.

To be quite honest, Healer is the only class in this game that literally is doing two separate roles on a consistent basis, and you probably will disagree with this, but I do not consider standing in AoEs the same as a Healer going out of their way to Cleric Stance and DPS. All classes have to avoid AoEs, including the Healer so that isn't a proper comparison, and as a DRK main, I consider my role to be achieving enmity and using my cooldowns at the right time, the primary role. DPS's primary role is to DPS, and Healer is to heal as stated in-game and well, with common sense, the title "Healer".

When you start going above this, which is honestly nice and I've been doing it ever since I was a fledgling Dragoon in this game, you start using abilities that do generally what are outside of your primary role, like say Second Wind on Bard that can generally help, or in certain fights a Keen Flurry to help mitigate 15ish% damage from a single attack, this is you going above and beyond your typical role in a party. In Healer's case, they generally have to go above and beyond far more than any other role in the game because of the potential of their DPS, it's generally why people praise Healer DPS because it can speed up a run several minutes if done properly and with a semi experienced Tank and DPS. It's also why you never see someone complain if a Bard didn't pop Second Wind when it could've kept them alive in certain moments.

With all of that said, this goes back to my original point. If you are achieving your most important aspect of your role, with the way this game is balanced, then you aren't being a "bad" player, just not the most optimal one. Until this game is designed with Healer DPS in mind, it will remain that way.

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If we are going to be that literal, I suppose I shouldn't use cooldowns whatsoever considering the narrative never specifies their necessity. Likewise, it does not emphasis DoT usage or aoe abilities. In fact, we're not even told our rotation. See, you cannot have it both ways. Either the narrative should be taken as the gospel or we're expected to look at the game design itself. The latter will promote healer DPS if one expects to be efficient at their role. White Mage and Astro were certainly not given Holy and Gravity-- two of the most potent aoes in the entire game -- to complete the MSQ. Nor would Cleric Stance even be an ability if that were the case.

The devs not accounting for healer DPS is due to the sheer difficulty that imposes on the raid as a whole. Gordias Savage was literally impossible without both healer DPS contribution. Even properly geared, the DPS checks were incredibly tight, which made the fight needlessly frustrating for many. By eliminating that one requirement, Savage was better balanced. In short, it's a simple adjustment to gameplay design in lieu of lowering DPS checks wholesale. That does not mean the intent was for healers to never DPS.

Your perception of each role is flawed. A healer has no greater responsibility than a tank, who is equally expected to deal damage while maintaining aggro. Technically, I could hold aggro by simply spamming Flash, Unleash or Overpower and do little else. By basic definition, I have performed my job "right". You consider cooldown usage a primary part of tanking yet... going back to earlier, nowhere are we told this except through game design (i.e. reading your tooltips).

Nevertheless, you are omitting an important factor. A healer can mitigate incoming damage if the target dies faster. They accomplish this by contributing to the DPS. What isn't alive to hit back needn't be healed through.

As for standing in aoes. Why should I lose my positionals or drop Ley Lines when you aren't willing to go beyond the very basics of your job? Frankly, you won't have enough to do in most content if I don't stand in things. Just as Taika showed, damage is so light, a healer can literally stand around doing emotes. You're a sub-par healer at best because you've ignored vital spells on your hotbar.

I'll be blunt. If all you fancy is healing, I will give you plenty to heal through. The DPS or Tank do not get to stand around doing nothing. Neither will you even if I have to purposely take damage. Now I'm patience with sprouts or people obviously struggling but veteran players being lazy? Nope. I stand in everything.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Boop

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I wish I could give you a Player Commendation. Take a Like instead.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The devs not accounting for healer DPS is due to the sheer difficulty that imposes on the raid as a whole. Gordias Savage was literally impossible without both healer DPS contribution. Even properly geared, the DPS checks were incredibly tight, which made the fight needlessly frustrating for many. By eliminating that one requirement, Savage was better balanced. In short, it's a simple adjustment to gameplay design in lieu of lowering DPS checks wholesale. That does not mean the intent was for healers to never DPS.

Nevertheless, you are omitting an important factor. A healer can mitigate incoming damage if the target dies faster. They accomplish this by contributing to the DPS. What isn't alive to hit back needn't be healed through.

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It was the design of Gordias that started the DPS Meta, and come Stormblood we may still be seeing DPS Meta. I agree with the fact that Healer DPS is playing 'optimally', and should be in most cases once you're familiar enough with stance dancing and finding the windows available as a healer, but the elephant is still in the room no matter what.

People are going to always pressure their healers into adding DPS come Lv 60 because it's not to 'help the player get better' but rather just to make their run faster, and it's generally accepted ever since we had those tight DPS checks. Of course, it varies from person to person, but a majority of the community see it that way.

Until they figure out something in Stormblood, this will more than likely be an endless circle jerk of arguments regarding the topic.

As for my personal input on the DPS Meta in general, I'm just going to flat out say: I don't like it. I do it for the sake of my team, but I do not like the feeling of being slammed when I'm not DPSing while keeping people's asses alive that are below 50% of their HP and something big(A11 Whirlwind) is going to come right at them and kill them.

I do not mean to be mean to anyone, but I'm just stating what I am seeing.

- End Rant -

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

As for my personal input on the DPS Meta in general, I'm just going to flat out say: I don't like it. I do it for the sake of my team, but I do not like the feeling of being slammed when I'm not DPSing while keeping people's asses alive that are below 50% of their HP and something big(A11 Whirlwind) is going to come right at them and kill them.

I do not mean to be mean to anyone, but I'm just stating what I am seeing.

- End Rant -

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To be fair, no one is advocating healers DPS to the detriment of actual healing. The argument has always remained "if you have time". Nonetheless, I do feel a significant problem with the current heal meta as a whole is the sheer ease in content outside savage. A healer shouldn't be in Cleric Stance 75% of a given run yet nothing hits hard enough to warrant not contributing to the actual damage. I mean, White Mage lost its footing this tier because groups simply don't need high burst healing. I'd rather content challenge the healing aspect because frankly, I like fights that push whatever role I've selected. We'll see if Stormblood does a better job than Heavensward did.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

It was the design of Gordias that started the DPS Meta, and come Stormblood we may still be seeing DPS Meta. I agree with the fact that Healer DPS is playing 'optimally', and should be in most cases once you're familiar enough with stance dancing and finding the windows available as a healer, but the elephant is still in the room no matter what.

- End Rant -

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Gordias didn't start it, it merely exposed its power. Among other things, it separated the good, bad and mediocre. Content that was finally tough enough (and not just the DPS side) to warrant considering optimal healer-tank damage.

Can someone who is anti-healer DPS explain to me how standing around for 98% of a fight or spamming Cure/Physick/Benefic is more fun than Stance dancing?

And also explain to me why your personal choice to slow down a run is acceptable? You may be fine with a run that's 5ish minutes longer but what about the other 3 people playing? I guess you>them?

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Can someone who is anti-healer DPS explain to me how standing around for 98% of a fight or spamming Cure/Physick/Benefic is more fun than Stance dancing?

And also explain to me why your personal choice to slow down a run is acceptable? You may be fine with a run that's 5ish minutes shorter but what about the other 3 people playing? I guess you>them?

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uhm, that's not the point. at least not for me. i don't want to stay around 98% of the time either - i want to HEAL, not dps and not staying around. but since you all are right - healers should dps when there is nothing to heal - and actually there is nothing to heal in most of the content - i quit healing. but i still want that square is getting rid of the dps-meta, removing cleric, increasing the damage of all monsters so healers have finally something to heal...

and on the other hand... i can't understand why you all are defending the dps-meta. it seems you all WANT nothing to heal, so you can pull more dps. seems you all picked the wrong class... if you want to dps, there are classes with an red icon... can you explain me that?

i mean: the whole "new perspective" for healer-dps in this topic is about making more damage to have less to heal - sounds legit, but i WANT to heal. i hate dpsing, why should i do something i hate to do something i love even less?

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Originally Posted by Tint

uhm, that's not the point. at least not for me. i don't want to stay around 98% of the time either - i want to HEAL, not dps and not staying around. but since you all are right - healers should dps when there is nothing to heal - and actually there is nothing to heal in most of the content - i quit healing. but i still want that square is getting rid of the dps-meta, removing cleric, increasing the damage of all monsters so healers have finally something to heal...

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Be careful what you wish for, what is the difference between a healing rotation and a DPS rotation then if healing was more difficult? They're both rotational type playstyles. At the moment, this heal/DPS duality lends itself to the most unique playstyle of all the classes. 100% healing is more boring than you think.

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Originally Posted by Tint

uhm, that's not the point. at least not for me. i don't want to stay around 98% of the time either - i want to HEAL, not dps and not staying around. but since you all are right - healers should dps when there is nothing to heal - and actually there is nothing to heal in most of the content - i quit healing. but i still want that square is getting rid of the dps-meta, removing cleric, increasing the damage of all monsters so healers have finally something to heal...

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That would require them to item level cap all content. Which would be fine by me, personally (apart from the removing cleric part, since that removes the opportunity for the most skillful players to shine, and I don't see why anyone would want that), but probably not for the majority of the playerbase, as it would make obtaining new gear completely irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Tint

and on the other hand... i can't understand why you all are defending the dps-meta. it seems you all WANT nothing to heal, so you can pull more dps. seems you all picked the wrong class... if you want to dps, there are classes with an red icon... can you explain me that?

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I personally chose healer exactly because it's the most versatile role of the game: because I can support my group with heals, shields and DPS, and I feel in this role there's most room for pushing your limits exactly because of this versatility. If the healer roles would be only about healing, I wouldn't play them.

Is it your job to DPS, NO But do you want to help the group:
- Finish the dungeon faster?
- Do things instead of standing there and wasting mana?

Then you should DPS, I dont think all the healers have to DPS, but if they are able to and can do it, why not help the group by casting some damage dealing spells? If SE wants healers to only heal, then they would have made mobs hit the players with more damage, which inturn means the healer needs to stay out of Cleric Stance and heal or they could just remove Cleric Stance from dungeons, like what they did with PvP. I think the reason why they have not changed this is, because they want to give the players a handicap, by giving them an extra dps that is disguised as a healer.

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Originally Posted by Tint

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You didn't even answer my questions. If you are not casting DPS spells then what are you doing? YOU quit healing, but I'm asking those who choose to still play a healer job but refuse to do something of use for the majority of a run.


I'm not defending the dps meta. It's what we have so we have to deal with and make the best of it. You can refuse to optimize your play and/or protest the meta all you want but it, honestly, just looks like you are stamping your feet and crying like a child who can't have a toy. It may not be what you want but refusing to work with it helps no one and will fix nothing.

I will reiterate this again, even though it's been said at least a bazillion times already, if you are not DPSing as a healer you are not being efficient and are either over healing like crazy and/or standing around being dead weight. Why is it okay for a healer to watch Netflix while playing but tanks and dps have to focus on doing proper rotations? A DRG can spam Heavy Thrust and still kill shit, but this is unacceptable. How is that fair when you think a healer using only Cure 2 is completely fine?

And before anyone says "oh but we aren't saying healers should only spam one healing spell"... you can heal most content by just spamming Cure 2.

Demanding tougher healing requirements in regular dungeons through higher damage from Tanks also has a chance to alienate "inexperienced or bad" healers from joining the casual content.

Right now, the dps meta caused by low healing requirements has a nice side-effect:
1) Healers, who know how to be efficient at GCDs, will have a lot of GCDs to spare and can put them into dps instead
2) inexperienced, sleepy or bad healers, who have long reaction times, are not that good at keeping the GCD rolling efficiently, or want to take a try in dungeons, still can fullfill the healing requirement of not letting anyone die without much difficulties.

Let's say, hypothetically,a fight in a dungeon currently needs 3 out of 10 GCDs strictly for healing.
However, once you amp up the healing requirement to the extent that a Group 1) healer needs to spend 9 out of 10 GCDs strictly to healing, what happens?
Group 2, who previously passed barely, will be hard pressed and stressed to fulfill the basic healing requirement, leading into failure, death, maybe ragequits, maybe leading into better players, lots of potential outcomes really.

Eitherway, the dps meta has been the meta since pretty much final coil to differentiate good from average players for a good reason.
Healers wanting to only heal and demanding tougher healer requirements for casual content need to also think about what it means for the lower end of players.

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Originally Posted by Thoro39

Demanding tougher healing requirements in regular dungeons through higher damage from Tanks also has a chance to alienate "inexperienced or bad" healers from joining the casual content.

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DPSing as a healer in casual content isn't significantly demanding, though. I would say keeping up with the extremely low healing requirements and doing some DPS is at a similar level of difficulty than filling the minimum requirements for a tank or DPS job. And that's what's being asked, not optimising one's performance.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Can someone who is anti-healer DPS explain to me how standing around for 98% of a fight or spamming Cure/Physick/Benefic is more fun than Stance dancing?

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They don't know how to heal so they think they have no free time because they're busy overhealing and waiting for people to take damage, which is pretty sad. I'm absolutely terrible at healing and even I can find some time to dps.

Also, I personally am against increasing the healing requirement for content. Healers are already bad, that's why they claim they have no time to dps. So I just don't see why you'd want to make them have to heal more when they already don't know how to do it. Maybe I'm just biased though, I have plenty experience with the common random player being absolutely terrible and showing no signs that they even want to improve.