Tanks, please use strength gear.. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blitzace

If your group doesn't meet the DPS check, Its DPS fault not cause the tank has one to many VIT accessory's equiped.

---

Got to quote this as this is fundamentally incorrect at the levels we're discussing. Tank DPS outside of Alexander Savage is basically an optional luxury, yes. Good tanks will strive to maximise it for sure but you can get away with full vit turtle tanks in any encounter without a problem.
The issue with tank dps comes where an encounter comes along that says "your group needs a total of 7,000 dps or you hit the enrage and wipe". Most of this burden is on the DPS, but what people were finding is that when all four DPS did the absolute best dps they could possibly do in the gear they had, with max consumables and being all really amazing players... they were still short. So healers and tanks have to fill in the gap. If four DPS can do 1300 dps each and you need 7000 total to kill something, that extra 1800 would have to come from tanks/healers.

Suddenly the difference between a tank that pushes out 450 DPS and a tank that pushes out 900 DPS is literally the make or break factor to a fight. And this -is- what groups have been experiencing in Alexander Savage before they started amassing more and more i200+ gear.

Yes, the DPS have to meet the DPS checks first, but a lot of top end encounters are set up so it's simply NOT POSSIBLE to kill the fight unless tanks also contribute a certain higher-than-average amount of DPS. In such a case, yes, wearing one too many Vitality rings could be the difference between kill or wipe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by karateorangutang

Ok I get that everyone should be doing their job. I guess what I don't quite understand is the mentality where if I am doing my job and only my job then I get an A+. If you can tank effectively and do a little bit of DPS to boot then why is that such a bad thing?

---

Personally I like to use every o-gcd in-between gcd's as I would if dpsing. At the same time I don't like stance dancing unless the occasion allows me to. Not all healers are on the same page and personally making the healer work that much harder to heal the tank doesn't leave that much wiggle room for when dps's get hit by mechanics. You can be the best stance dancing tank out there but if the healer isn't on the same page you might as well leave your best moves for the dance floor.

This is why I prefer mixing up my jewelry vit/str that way I can put out a little more dps and still maintain a nice buffer for when you get one of those healers that zone out and forget how to heal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by karateorangutang

Why?

---

It's probably because there's more of a trade-off for a tank to DPS than there is for a MNK to use Mantra or a BLM to use Apoctastasis. Those are off-global abilities that don't generally cost DPS for the person to use. When tanks are pushing for DPS, there's more of a risk involved--it's not always a huge risk, especially if the tank knows what they're doing with cooldowns and the like, but there's a risk. There are similar back and forth discussions on the healer forums with regard to healer DPS that seem to be rooted in the same thing to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Astral145

This is why I prefer mixing up my jewelry vit/str that way I can put out a little more dps and still maintain a nice buffer for when you get one of those healers that zone out and forget how to heal.

---

I mix up jewelry as well depending on the content. 4 mans is really the only place that i go full STR setup on. Otherwise I try to give my healers a little cushion to deal with. It's the general mentality that surrounds STR accessories that has me at a loss. Most of the people that are defending full VIT setups seem to think that if you don't gear VIT fully then you flop over dead on the first pull. I have yet to run into a healer that is that bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alahra

It's probably because there's more of a trade-off for a tank to DPS than there is for a MNK to use Mantra or a BLM to use Apoctastasis. Those are off-global abilities that don't generally cost DPS for the person to use. When tanks are pushing for DPS, there's more of a risk involved--it's not always a huge risk, especially if the tank knows what they're doing with cooldowns and the like, but there's a risk. There are similar back and forth discussions on the healer forums with regard to healer DPS that seem to be rooted in the same thing to me.

---

I can see this I suppose. Like I said in my post though, if your wearing VIT accessories because it makes you feel more comfortable then that is fine. I really don't have a problem with people using VIT setups if that is what makes them feel better. What I don't like is the stance that alot of people are taking where if you don't have a million HP then you aren't viable. I've said it before but STR is an optimization and is by no means necessary for most content. It can be used to great effect even in DF. I run DF too and really don't have an issue. DF is like the monster under your bed, it's really not that bad once you look at it.

Anyway, this is somewhat related, but what's the minimum amount of tank gear you need to survive a dungeon run? Obviously, replacing 5 VIT accessories with STR seems to be the rule of thumb for most from the STR camp.

Is it possible to replace any of the i200 or i210 gear with i180 crafted gear melded with str materia? For example, the belt, feet, hands, and helmet (in that order). Body and leg is probably too much, but maybe some players have tried it anyway. At what point did you find STR gear unsustainable?

On that note, I'd really like to know the baseline for a pure STR tank speed run compared to a pure VIT speed run, and maybe somewhere in between. At what point does the trade-off between VIT and STR make the run slower or faster? Has anyone noticed how much time it takes to complete a run with specific STR and VIT gear?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by karateorangutang

DF is like the monster under your bed, it's really not that bad once you look at it.

---

That probably depends somewhat on Data Center. On Primal at least I regularly experience and hear from other healers about frustrating STR tanks.

However in general, I agree. I think full VIT is pretty wasteful after a certain point, though that point does slide around based on the content in question, individual skill and to a degree, group composition. Personally, I like STR tanks on AST more than I do on my SCH, as the former isn't as competent in AoE DPS as the latter, which means less is given up if I spend more time healing (plus, STR tanks benefit more from an Expanded Balance/Arrow than a VIT one). On SCH I tend to prefer at least a blend of the two (or a good STR tank), since there's more potential for personal DPS there.

On my own tanks, I'm admittedly an average tank and I stick to full VIT for now. I'll get pentamelds when the 180 accessories are readily available (though whether they will be is going to be questionable with how borked crafting progression/material scarcity is right now).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anova

On that note, I'd really like to know the baseline for a pure STR tank speed run compared to a pure VIT speed run, and maybe somewhere in between. At what point does the trade-off between VIT and STR make the run slower or faster? Has anyone noticed how much time it takes to complete a run with specific STR and VIT gear?

---

Negligible time difference at best, especially with a PUG DF run, too many variables. Now with a dedicated team of players who play together all the time, pure speculation here but maybe a few minutes at best.

While true tank can help contribute the main duty of it is not to dps.
Just how some healers can dps but not all do or should not be expected to, but it is up to the player to decide.
Myself i have "a" str acc as well and may get more as the current tank gear is sort of not very good, lol
New players first starting out it is probably a better idea that they go vitality or a mix of str and vit just to get the hang of it first

I stack vitality gear along with the requisite tanking accessories. That's how I roll. You don't have to like it, agree with it or even tolerate it as there is no requirement to run a raid with me.

The other bonus to that? I don't have to run a raid with you. :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yumad

Yes?





........

---

I see what you did there.

Anyways,

I was once a fan of full fending right side on my PLD. Then I tried swapping one str accessory and then another. I didn't realize that I was already running 4 str accs with all my bonus stats at str. So I decided, I might as well go full STR. Tanking 4 mans is already trivial considering how much healers can heal nowadays. Going for 8-man, I just swap to 3 slaying, 2 fending, with my points in VIT for a good balance between tankiness and threat generation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ishmachiah

I stack vitality gear along with the requisite tanking accessories. That's how I roll. You don't have to like it, agree with it or even tolerate it as there is no requirement to run a raid with me.

The other bonus to that? I don't have to run a raid with you. :cool:

---

that is fine but at the moment the savage raids require strength and vitality (Melds)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapphidia

Got to quote this as this is fundamentally incorrect at the levels we're discussing. Tank DPS outside of Alexander Savage is basically an optional luxury, yes. Good tanks will strive to maximise it for sure but you can get away with full vit turtle tanks in any encounter without a problem.

---

*cough* I'd like to quote what's left of OP's initial post for you:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I am tired of seeing so many tanks stacked with vitality. Vitality does not increase healing done to you at all.

To clarify. I am not telling people how to play. Just giving tips for new players and people who are concerned with their healers and such. Healers are fully able to heal you fine through dungeons even if your new in full strength gear.
.

---

He started this thread advocating that all tanks should use strength accessories from the get-go. Including new tanks. His initial post (I found this thread too late to read that, but I've seen bits of it quoted along the line) apparently complained that the HW dungeons were taking too long and that he ran out of MP during the fight because the DPS was too low. And instead of pointing the finger at the guys responsible for the majority of said DPS, he seemed to mean that if the tank went full STR it would be easier for the healer to keep them alive and would make up for low-performance DPS classes.

So the levels we're discussing is not Alexander Savage. Through-out the thread, I've seen several people make that exception, saying things like 'what you do in your own static is your business, and if I were to join it that's fine, but outside of Alex Savage and your static, don't try to tell me how to gear'.

Due to the first post, I know I personally went into a thread where the base argument wasn't 'STR vs VIT in progression raids' but rather 'STR vs VIT in casual play', and I suspect that many others did so as well. And if they did, it shouldn't come as a surprise that their posts/counter-arguments are based on that premise and not raiding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noxifer

*cough* I'd like to quote what's left of OP's initial post for you:


He started this thread advocating that all tanks should use strength accessories from the get-go. Including new tanks. His initial post (I found this thread too late to read that, but I've seen bits of it quoted along the line) apparently complained that the HW dungeons were taking too long and that he ran out of MP during the fight because the DPS was too low. And instead of pointing the finger at the guys responsible for the majority of said DPS, he seemed to mean that if the tank went full STR it would be easier for the healer to keep them alive and would make up for low-performance DPS classes.

So the levels we're discussing is not Alexander Savage. Through-out the thread, I've seen several people make that exception, saying things like 'what you do in your own static is your business, and if I were to join it that's fine, but outside of Alex Savage and your static, don't try to tell me how to gear'.

Due to the first post, I know I personally went into a thread where the base argument wasn't 'STR vs VIT in progression raids' but rather 'STR vs VIT in casual play', and I suspect that many others did so as well. And if they did, it shouldn't come as a surprise that their posts/counter-arguments are based on that premise and not raiding.

---

At this point though haven't we, as a group, arrived at the consensus of "do what you want as long as it's outside of progression"? Maybe i'm speaking for the group but honestly 4 mans could be geared with mind accessories and still get done in a timely manner. Most of us are just picking at the fact the one or the other is more efficient, which I suppose all comes down to your playstyle.

Playing with a healer you know well?
Gear what makes you and your buddy feel comfy.

Playing DF only?
Gear what makes you, the tank, feel comfy.

Seems to be the common theme of most of the posts. I still think gearing at least 3 STR accessories in most content is not only viable, but optimal. However, I suppose if your accustomed to doing things differently and the change would throw you off your game then it's really not a big deal either way for DF content.

If im running with a healer that wants to dps I'll run vit so i can survive longer. Their 800 dps is better than the extra 100-200 extra I'll get wearing str.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bardaboo

If im running with a healer that wants to dps I'll run vit so i can survive longer. Their 800 dps is better than the extra 100-200 extra I'll get wearing str.

---

Except that if you were wearing STR accessories, the healer would still be able to output those 800 DPS the same way, but you would do something like 300 extra. Seriously, healers don't need you to have 3000 more HP in order to DPS. As long as the incoming heals are superior to the incoming damage, you'll always live no matter if you have 3000 more HP or not.

Again, wearing STR jewelry doesn't prevent the healer from DPSing at all if you play properly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

snip

---

An extra 3k HP means I get to, at the start of pulls get off a couple more GCDs before hitting the critical HP threshold and have to switch back to heal. That gets extended depending on mitigation and maybe a precast regen or whatnot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

Again, wearing STR jewelry doesn't prevent the healer from DPSing at all if you play properly.

---

This is not objectively true. It's true for reasonably high gear levels, but if a tank is undergeared and has very low base vitality then even popping cooldowns properly a healer might struggle to output a full dps rotation before having to turn CS off and heal.

You're not taking into account the way Cleric Stance works. Turn it on, and you have 5+ seconds where you basically -cannot- heal and can only do a DPS rotation. Tanks need enough vitality to be able to survive a full length rotation of casts before needing a single heal, and low geared tanks often need healing more frequently if wearing strength gear, even if popping cooldowns properly.

Take Scholars. Their usual, optimal aoe DPS rotation is Cleric Stance -> Shadowflare -> Bio 2 -> Miasma -> Bio -> Bane -> run up and Miasma 2. (they can then tab-spam Aero on each mob if healing isnt needed). That's a lot of global cooldowns on dps. If a tank can survive 5 seconds from full health to dead then they can only get a couple of casts off before having to swap out to heal. If a tank can survive 7 seconds they can get a full three-dot Bane. If they can survive 10 seconds they can get the entire rotation off. If they survive 12-15 seconds they can get aeros off.

Sure, a tank with 17k health from 190/200 gear would easily be able to survive long enough on big pulls, but a new tank with 13k health wearing strength gear would survive only about 2/3 as long (due to 70% health plus lower defenses). In these cases, yes, having vitality accessories can increase healer DPS by increasing the number of casts a healer can get off in their rotation.

It's situational and gear dependant, not an objective truth. Healers can always do SOME dps, but vitality on the tank can increase the length of a rotation at LOWER gear levels at least.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spelley

An extra 3k HP means I get to, at the start of pulls get off a couple more GCDs before hitting the critical HP threshold and have to switch back to heal. That gets extended depending on mitigation and maybe a precast regen or whatnot.

---

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3318162

You also have to weigh in the GCDs lost from the healer (if any) vs the DPS lost from the tank. There's a difference between not DPSing at all and losing a few GCDs. There's also difference between going in with full greens + STR accessories and being full i190 + STR accessories - you shouldn't have such pitifully low HP that you get completely destroyed within the first 5s of the pull.

Having 3k more health doesn't actually result in higher combined DPS due to limitations on healer MP and limitations on healer's sustained AOE. You also have Bene as WHM, which is a massive boon when it comes to speedruns (on top of PoM Holy and etc etc).

All that said, as I stated in the topic I linked, whatever you choose to use in 4man content is personal preference - the only thing wearing STR accessories will do is speed up the run, but it requires you to be competent and your healer to not just tunnel vision DPS. If you choose to use VIT over STR, only extremely silly people would complain about it. In Savage raid content, the DPS gained from a single target tank in STR accessories far outweighs any GCDs lost from the healer, but that's irrelevant to this topic and requires far more min/maxing due to enrages and all that noise.

I hit 60 Paladin on my alt about 5 weeks into Alexander normal progression. Since hitting level 60, I have never once equipped a single Vitality accessory on my Paladin for any content I have ever run, except for fun to see how high my health could go. I only ever went max VIT with a healer who couldn't keep me up with Shield Oath + CDs for busters through the first boss of Fractal.

This is. Fresh 60. I was in HQ/NQ whites. Full strength spec, full strength accessories. Successfully tanking the current expert dungeons without threat or death issues outside of one shit healer I had one time. I ran in Shield Oath on the bosses until I no longer had any left side white gear. Then I would pull in Shield and drop it before my second GB. Once I got about 50% blue, I started just doing Sword on bosses. I've also cleared all of Alex normal multiple times, MT and OT for every fight.

VIT is unnecessary outside of Savage.

What's funny about this whole thread is that at the beginning you said, you're not trying to tell people how to play and to make things easier on the healers, and no matter what anyone else says in response, your replies are always, with slight paraphrasing, I'm right, you're wrong, git good.

And once again a very good reason why full STR is not always is in your best interest for these *elitest* people out there.

Random PT(As i said many times before) Just a simple exp roulette. Was running full str (Healer was mix of 180/190) First pull i died. His response "Oh... you're running full dps"
So i changed two equips from slaying to fending. Barely made the first pull. Second pull i wiped again. went full fending this time around, Nearly died again had to use HG on a trash pull. Cause Mr.healer was to busy DPSing and then continued to heal in CS instead of taking it off and give proper heals, Let not start about the fact he never used Beni not even once.

So yes, FULL STR my ass. It all comes down to how comfortable your party is with it, And how comfortable you are with it.
I usually run full STR or a mix. But i'm getting sick and tired of people saying there is no need for full vit or even a mix of vit/slay.

You run with a random group and get a less-skilled healer and see how many times you'll wipe if you do big pulls.

If a tank wants to run full fending, (As a healer) i love it. means i get more DPS time and just an overall more smooth dungeon run.
But if he decides to go full str, No problem. So let the player decides wether he goes full str/vit mix or what ever.

Ofcourse pre-mades PT /PF PTs are a different story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blitzace

Random PT(As i said many times before) Just a simple exp roulette. Was running full str (Healer was mix of 180/190) First pull i died. His response "Oh... you're running full dps"
So i changed two equips from slaying to fending. Barely made the first pull. Second pull i wiped again. went full fending this time around, Nearly died again had to use HG on a trash pull. Cause Mr.healer was to busy DPSing and then continued to heal in CS instead of taking it off and give proper heals, Let not start about the fact he never used Beni not even once.

---

Full Str isn't to blame here, the terrible healer is. Even when you said you swapped to fending, you *barely* survived first pull then second you died again. This story has nothing to do with str vs vit, it's just simply the healer was terrible.

I mean, I've run full fending on the last boss of Fractal in Shield Oath and had a healer who couldn't keep me alive. That healer had to leave. Another one with equivalent gear came in. I swapped back to full strength gear and slapped on Sword Oath. We cleared in one shot and I was never close to dying.

The gear on the tank isn't the problem. Healers who don't know how to do mechanics and heal at the same time is.

A great healer will not mind healing a full VIT or full STR tank.

I tend to check my healer's stats whenever I'm in an instance. If I see that they have a tank or all tanks leveled up, I know that I am in good hands. Likewise, a great tank have 1/all healing class/es leveled.

I think right now with Heavensward only being around a little over a month or so, it's a good time to mix STR and VIT. The month before 3.0, we had ran through the content that was out for months on end, more people were used to everything they were doing and I myself ran full STR on WAR and mixed on PLD because by that point nothing was new and I had done nearly everything by then. Right now content is still new to people and they're leveling everything up, so I go mixed on all my tanks, 3 STR and 2 VIT. Two months from now I'll probably be able to run full STR Accessories because people will be used to how the stats and jobs are then, so it's all about who you're with and how long the content has been out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blitzace

And once again a very good reason why full STR is not always is in your best interest for these *elitest* people out there.

Random PT(As i said many times before) Just a simple exp roulette. Was running full str (Healer was mix of 180/190) First pull i died. His response "Oh... you're running full dps"
So i changed two equips from slaying to fending. Barely made the first pull. Second pull i wiped again. went full fending this time around, Nearly died again had to use HG on a trash pull. Cause Mr.healer was to busy DPSing and then continued to heal in CS instead of taking it off and give proper heals, Let not start about the fact he never used Beni not even once.

So yes, FULL STR my ass. It all comes down to how comfortable your party is with it, And how comfortable you are with it.
I usually run full STR or a mix. But i'm getting sick and tired of people saying there is no need for full vit or even a mix of vit/slay.

You run with a random group and get a less-skilled healer and see how many times you'll wipe if you do big pulls

If a tank wants to run full fending, (As a healer) i love it. means i get more DPS time and just an overall more smooth dungeon run.
But if he decides to go full str, No problem. So let the player decides wether he goes full str/vit mix or what ever.

Ofcourse pre-mades PT /PF PTs are a different story.

---

Just an FYI, most of us who advocate going STR or crafted accessories don't mean to use STR on a PLD doing large pulls. It doesn't actually help the situation on a PLD as gearing towards STR on a DRK or WAR does, where more STR = realistically (sometimes vastly) shorter pull and more HP restored from Bloodbath and/or Abyssal Drain.

STR scales Flash enmity upwards, doesn't it? I've heard so many PLDs cry about Flash being crap and needing a buff, but I've literally never had issues with CoS+Flash in Shield Oath holding mobs, even running with casters dropping 1500+ dps on 5-mob pulls. I just spam Flash/CoS and cycle Goring Blade combos/use Sheltron for MP regen and I never need to even dip below half MP to hold everything to me by a wide margin. The only time I lose hate is a Bard of Machinist going FULL IN ALL BUFFS SINGLE TARGET in a 5+ mob group, which is when I just let them suffer because they're shit dps.

To the comments about healer being bad and saying it's not relevant to this conversation, I think it is very relevant. You can't choose your party (in random DF) but you can choose your equipment. Instead of going blanket black and white, I say tanks should know how adding STR affects to their job, not be afraid to use it when it's reasonable, but that's about that. No strict "you have to use this or that".

Yesterday I switched my VIT Gear to STR Gear:
Lost 20% of my HP (drop from 10k to 8k) and only won 10% DMG.
Did a small testrun on the Big Yeti Fate:
Result: DMG can be still ignored but I lost 20% of my HP (no hate issues by players in my same range so same as before)

So I do not see why STR should be much better then VIT.
I also read some calculations that STR PLD can increase in endgame the DPS of the group by 100-200. Which means it needs (based on 4000+ DPS) 20-40 Seconds to be worth for one Second of normal DPS.

So a 360sec fight will be decreased by 9 - 18 Seconds by a STR Tank. These are 3,6 - 7,2 GCDs....
So if the data in another topic is accurate it is just saying: STR is still not worth. 9 - 18 Seconds faster per Bossfight will make it up to 1min in a normal Dungeon.

Either the theocrafting I found int this forum was wrong or STR is really not so much better then some people here are talking about.

Well I think I will use STR for leveling, fating or if I am really well with the group. Not to help the group DPS but to see bigger numbers on my PLD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lantia

snip

---

That's bullshit man. If you only got 10% more damage by switching to STR gear you did something wrong. The difference is way higher. And just for the fun test, Tuesday with my static's tank mate we did A1S in full VIT and full tank stance 100% of the time and no healer DPS at all. We were unable to kill the boss before the 3rd jump and we even got to the 4th tank buster, where with STR tanks and DPS stances we kill them before the 3rd jump. That's quite a big difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

SNIP

---

So it is bullshit? Well excuse me but I know which numbers were visible thank you.
Extra for you I will search for the post with the DPS increasement by STR Tanks and the overview of all tank classes and the gain of group DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lantia

snip

---

What level and class were you swapping STR acc's on? Out of curiosity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by karateorangutang

What level and class were you swapping STR acc's on? Out of curiosity.

---

Sure no problem: 54 as you also can see for searching my char in Lodestone

This is also why I searched the forum for numbers on 60 PLD and well it was not pointing out that STR is so much better (but increasing the group DPS by 200 and for this my calculation is accurate) for the lose of VIT.
If someone has better numbers to see: I am happy to view them (cause I am still not saying STR is crap I just do not see the BIG ADVANTAGE that everyone is talking about).

Edit:
Just for reference (number 1):
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...mpared_to_war/
(Not that someone says: You need to be 60 PLD to compare numbers....)

Increasing the party DPS by 200 is huge, especially when you're doing it with a non-DPS job. It makes a big difference. And I don't think 200 DPS is 10% of your damage. Now imagine if the two tanks in an 8-man party are doing that, and add that the healers might also do it. That's huge and it helps a lot meeting hard DPS checks. Even with the best DPS players in the world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lantia

Sure no problem: 54 as you also can see for searching my char in Lodestone

This is also why I searched the forum for numbers on 60 PLD and well it was not pointing out that STR is so much better (but increasing the group DPS by 200 and for this my calculation is accurate) for the lose of VIT.
If someone has better numbers to see: I am happy to view them (cause I am still not saying STR is crap I just do not see the BIG ADVANTAGE that everyone is talking about).

Edit:
Just for reference (number 1):
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...mpared_to_war/
(Not that someone says: You need to be 60 PLD to compare numbers....)

---

It really depends on your mindset. In raid content right now it would be more beneficial to get that extra 200 DPS in comparison to 2k HP. Now if your talking running 4man content then it's going to speed up a run a little but otherwise it would mostly be unnoticed. Most of the 4 mans have extremely low DPS checks that are easily attainable by the DPS alone. Savage is a different story. Additionally, Paladin does benefit from a STR build less than a WAR does. For WAR it actually synergiezes with alot of our self heals to provide additional HP benefits outside of the damage increase. DRK has a decent DMG toolkit too so the difference is also more pronounced there.

STR builds are fine when leveling, but when your reach cap is where they really start to shine. They only get better as you continue to gear yourself better on your left hand slots due to the natural HP increase you get off of just those pieces alone. At 60 I would glady trade 10-15% DPS for 1-2 k HP as long as I was in a reasonable range for my healers. Again, this is just my preference when it comes to 4 man dungeons. They can really be rolled through with any accessories.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lantia

So a 360sec fight will be decreased by 9 - 18 Seconds by a STR Tank. These are 3,6 - 7,2 GCDs....
So if the data in another topic is accurate it is just saying: STR is still not worth. 9 - 18 Seconds faster per Bossfight will make it up to 1min in a normal Dungeon.

Either the theocrafting I found int this forum was wrong or STR is really not so much better then some people here are talking about.

Well I think I will use STR for leveling, fating or if I am really well with the group. Not to help the group DPS but to see bigger numbers on my PLD.

---

Do you realize that 10s+ off a clear time is huge in raiding? It sounds like it's just 10s from an outside perspective, but that's the difference between meeting an enrage or DPS check or pushing phases brother.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blitzace

And once again a very good reason why full STR is not always is in your best interest for these *elitest* people out there.

Random PT(As i said many times before) Just a simple exp roulette. Was running full str (Healer was mix of 180/190) First pull i died. His response "Oh... you're running full dps"
So i changed two equips from slaying to fending. Barely made the first pull. Second pull i wiped again. went full fending this time around, Nearly died again had to use HG on a trash pull. Cause Mr.healer was to busy DPSing and then continued to heal in CS instead of taking it off and give proper heals, Let not start about the fact he never used Beni not even once.

So yes, FULL STR my ass. It all comes down to how comfortable your party is with it, And how comfortable you are with it.
I usually run full STR or a mix. But i'm getting sick and tired of people saying there is no need for full vit or even a mix of vit/slay.

You run with a random group and get a less-skilled healer and see how many times you'll wipe if you do big pulls.

If a tank wants to run full fending, (As a healer) i love it. means i get more DPS time and just an overall more smooth dungeon run.
But if he decides to go full str, No problem. So let the player decides wether he goes full str/vit mix or what ever.

Ofcourse pre-mades PT /PF PTs are a different story.

---

As someone else said, it sounds like that's on the healer. which is weird since you then turn around and say that as a healer you prefer vit tanks.

I can't speak for sch or ast, but as whm it shouldn't matter what the tank gears if you know what you're doing. By the time your divine sealed' HoTs run out the enemies should be resisting holy spam and you should be low on mp and not able to dps much any more anyway unless you just let the tank die. Of course, with a good group enemies should be almost dead by then anyway.

His "10%" number is coming from looking at flat damage amounts, probably, fyi. When I was messing around with VIT crap, I put 3 VIT accessories on and my RoH in Sword Oath dropped from ~1000 to ~900 damage. This adds up to a huge drop in dps in the long run, but it looks like it's "just 10%" by looking at that one number.

Agreeing that a strength paladin can add 200 dps and in the same breath saying that it's 10% is absolutely silly since 200 is 10% of 2000. Ain't no way your tank dps is 2000, bro. It's a 20% loss if you're doing 1000 with full strength and 200 is an accurate number (which, in my experience, it's actually an underestimation). I'll run actual full tests on it later today, running full STR v full VIT and see just how big of a difference we're looking at.

I'm guessing it'll be WAY more than 200, since comparing numbers I put up to other tanks sees me generally at 600-700 v their 300-400 in Alexander normal - them with VIT, me with STR. Some of that is skill and tank stances, sure, but a lot of that is due to their accessories.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JackFross

His "10%" number is coming from looking at flat damage amounts, probably, fyi. When I was messing around with VIT crap, I put 3 VIT accessories on and my RoH in Sword Oath dropped from ~1000 to ~900 damage. This adds up to a huge drop in dps in the long run, but it looks like it's "just 10%" by looking at that one number.

Agreeing that a strength paladin can add 200 dps and in the same breath saying that it's 10% is absolutely silly since 200 is 10% of 2000. Ain't no way your tank dps is 2000, bro. It's a 20% loss if you're doing 1000 with full strength and 200 is an accurate number (which, in my experience, it's actually an underestimation). I'll run actual full tests on it later today, running full STR v full VIT and see just how big of a difference we're looking at.

---

Would love to see the actual numbers. Would you post them in here?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by karateorangutang

Would love to see the actual numbers. Would you post them in here?

---

That's my plan. I'll be doing so once I have a free chance to later today. C: