Market Wards, enough is enough

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Originally Posted by Naguru

There is a reason AHs are all over the place in MMOs... It's cause they are the current best system! Current system is painful at best.

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I tend to always look back as far as Diablo, and thank God for any kind of in game item search mechanic.

But meh people are never happy with what they have.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

I like your elaboration of the buy order system in order to get it to work with the item search. However the method, it needs to be fast, easy, intuitive, and efficient.

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Thanks! I keep trying to beat the drum on this, as I believe this one feature is a key foundational piece of the FF14 economy that is missing. It needn't be my proposal, of course ... I'm simply trying to point out one possible implementation and the reasoning behind it.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

As far as the item version of money-in-money-out is concerned, that is a bit of a problem we have here in FF14. EVE Online deals with this problem fairly easily - everyone's stuff gets blown to smithereens so often, you're likely to buy a lot of replacements. Hardly anything is really permanent. Of course, in FF14, we can't just go around blowing everyone's gear up. That would be totally wrong.

Solipse had a comment about item worthlessness a long time ago.

If we had some kind of desynth option, or some way to consume items that no one wants, then that might help.

As for gilsinks, I and others have put in a lot of examples in the gil sinks thread

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Curb-Inflation

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I think I've seen and contributed to all of those threads already, I think XD. My opinion at this point is that the gil sinks and item sinks (ala de-synthesis or making items into materia or whatever) should be a higher priority than redesigning the UI for the market system. My reasoning is that with the item and gil glut we have now, streamlining the UI won't have any significant effect, since there's such huge supply / demand imbalances.

However, the big unknown factor is just how much design / programming effort it would take on SE's side -- something I can only vaguely guess at, not knowing anything about the back-end architecture. So, it could very well be that a UI change would be a minimal effort -- however, it could just as easily be a monumental undertaking. Not really much more to say in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Oh, I forgot to mention that in the comments to that article, he links to 2 more articles he wrote about RMT:

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Simon...ed_Economy.php

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Simon...Your_Money.php

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Thanks for posting those up -- they were good reads. One item I noted was not by the original author, but in the the comments:

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Furthermore, EVE does not operate on a 'global' auction house. Items made in location X stay in location X, and cannot be moved unless someone physically moves them there. If you buy an item, it does not magically appear in a mailbox, you have to go get it. If you want it delivered, expect to pay someone to move it for you.

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I haven't played EVE, so I can't testify to this, but from the little I know it seems correct. So, if we want to tout EVE as the basis on which to model an MMO economy, should not market localization stay in effect? That is, purchasing items through the search window and having them instantly delivered would be counter to that notion. The item search window tells you where to find an item (or where to sell it once the 'seek item' feature is fixed), but the game still requires SOMEONE to go there.

I know it's only a method of purchasing items from other users, but I think the idea of searching for an item you want and having to shop around in different areas, gives it that opportunity to travel and see what's out there kinda feeling.

Like I said I know it's only about purchasing items but it gives the crafter and traders there own involved world rather than simply putting an item up then someone buys.

It's not for everyone but I like a game that isn't just about bossin mobs and levelling up.
I've seen too many of those boring MMO's.

Having said that it's a good time to mention the fieldcraft work which is in depth where you have to actually work for your results rather than clicking a rock and then he mines it.

I'm going to be honest, I haven't read every single reply on this thread, it was a bit large by the time I came around. I'll read them later.

However, I wanted to post anyway because I want to be noticed too lol. I like the market wards, what they could do is just make it possible to buy straight from the search screen so that players don't have to walk into the actual wards and crash them with people everywhere. However, I also like the option of being able to walk into the wards if I so chose and just browse around like people used to do in Rolanberry in XI. In fact, I think the market wards are a pretty good combo of rolanberry bazaars and AH, it was a pretty cool idea. Just add a buy option from the search screen.

Also having to be next to a bazaar to buy something is annoying, especially when I see something at a camp and the person starts a leve and runs off @_@. I get that it's realistic, but it's one of those realisms that I feel is unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Eveille

I'm going to be honest, I haven't read every single reply on this thread, it was a bit large by the time I came around. I'll read them later.

However, I wanted to post anyway because I want to be noticed too lol. I like the market wards, what they could do is just make it possible to buy straight from the search screen so that players don't have to walk into the actual wards and crash them with people everywhere. However, I also like the option of being able to walk into the wards if I so chose and just browse around like people used to do in Rolanberry in XI. In fact, I think the market wards are a pretty good combo of rolanberry bazaars and AH, it was a pretty cool idea. Just add a buy option from the search screen.

Also having to be next to a bazaar to buy something is annoying, especially when I see something at a camp and the person starts a leve and runs off @_@. I get that it's realistic, but it's one of those realisms that I feel is unnecessary.

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Thanks for joining in the convo, even if you haven't been able to wade through the 45 pages of posts >.>'

I'm all for buying from the item search, as long as additional delivery charges are included. Even could have two options, to have the item delivered to your retainer, or to you personally.

Your last comment reminded me of a funny story. I was duoing wolves with someone up around Emerald Moss when we both DCed and died. So I log back in and am running north from the camp, and I get this /tell "STOP!". This guy had been looking for an item I was selling my my bazaar and I zoomed off before he could buy it, and had been chasing me for like three minutes. End of story: I stopped and went back and the transaction was made. Good times :D

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Originally Posted by Amineri

Thanks for joining in the convo, even if you haven't been able to wade through the 45 pages of posts >.>'

I'm all for buying from the item search, as long as additional delivery charges are included. Even could have two options, to have the item delivered to your retainer, or to you personally.

Your last comment reminded me of a funny story. I was duoing wolves with someone up around Emerald Moss when we both DCed and died. So I log back in and am running north from the camp, and I get this /tell "STOP!". This guy had been looking for an item I was selling my my bazaar and I zoomed off before he could buy it, and had been chasing me for like three minutes. End of story: I stopped and went back and the transaction was made. Good times :D

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lol nice, yea I've had that happen but the person ported away completely and left me hanging :(

I hadn't even thought about delivering to my mule to my at all. I was just thinking of making the search screen BE the AH, you just press your item, buy it and it's on you. Not against having an option like you said though, it just hadn't occurred to me at all.

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Originally Posted by Gracious

Personally, sadly, I think Shai's comments are basically how I think SE would answer me. It doesn't matter what the fans want. It doesn't matter what the majority wants.

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Which is why they made Abyssea right? Because it's not something the fans, the majority wanted? It's the same company with the general same development team. SE has proven they'll do what the fans wanted but most fans and players aren't realizing that they're working on the market wards system and they're both generally the same thing, MW only lacks certain features and it was even stated an AH won't SOLVE ANY PROBLEMS INSTANTLY LIKE PEOPLE STILL SEEM TO THINK.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Which is why they made Abyssea right? Because it's not something the fans, the majority wanted? It's the same company with the general same development team. SE has proven they'll do what the fans wanted but most fans and players aren't realizing that they're working on the market wards system and they're both generally the same thing, MW only lacks certain features and it was even stated an AH won't SOLVE ANY PROBLEMS INSTANTLY LIKE PEOPLE STILL SEEM TO THINK.

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My entire argument (and probably that of others as well) is that having to render the NPC shops incurs a large amount of overhead, forces the devs to limit the Market Wards in multiple ways, and requires much more effort to maintain and develop than a menu driven, NPC-less version. In essence, the devs put in more effort to get an inferior system.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

My entire argument (and probably that of others as well) is that having to render the NPC shops incurs a large amount of overhead, forces the devs to limit the Market Wards in multiple ways, and requires much more effort to maintain and develop than a menu driven, NPC-less version. In essence, the devs put in more effort to get an inferior system.

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This is correct if just for the rendering of NPCs. Especially with how awful this game runs. They are doing more work to achieve something similar but not as good as the easy way out.

Innovation for the sake of innovation isn't innovative at all. It's just a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Which is why they made Abyssea right? Because it's not something the fans, the majority wanted? It's the same company with the general same development team. SE has proven they'll do what the fans wanted but most fans and players aren't realizing that they're working on the market wards system and they're both generally the same thing, MW only lacks certain features and it was even stated an AH won't SOLVE ANY PROBLEMS INSTANTLY LIKE PEOPLE STILL SEEM TO THINK.

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too bad people don't always know what they REALLY want...

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Originally Posted by Amineri

My version of Renta's list, added to, and re-prioritized:

1. Fix Seek Item, thus allowing 'buy orders'
2. Balancing of gil MIMO by introducing gil sinks
3. Balancing of item MIMO by introducing item sinks
4. Addition of comprehensive price history
5. Stabilization of systemic issues (i.e. 'crashing') regarding rendering of NPC retainers (by reorganization of the markets, changing to menu-driven system, reducing poly count on retainers, or some other method)

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I think I can be down with this.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

As far as the item version of money-in-money-out is concerned, that is a bit of a problem we have here in FF14. EVE Online deals with this problem fairly easily - everyone's stuff gets blown to smithereens so often, you're likely to buy a lot of replacements. Hardly anything is really permanent. Of course, in FF14, we can't just go around blowing everyone's gear up. That would be totally wrong.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

If we had some kind of desynth option, or some way to consume items that no one wants, then that might help.

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I don't think "item destruction" would be that wrong. We have a durability system. As long as we can bazaar and trade items with less than 100% durability (not sell to NPC), the players can establish their own market for them. Add the ability to desynth those same items, and we have a very organic and effective way of removing items from the economy.

This would give players 4 options when an item is less then 100% durability:

1. Discard the item and buy a new one.
2. Have the item repaired by a PC or NPC.
3. Sell the item to a PC.
4. Desynth the item for raw materials.

Options #1 & #4 removes the item from the economy. Option #3 gives another player an equal opportunity to remove the item from the economy if he so chooses.

The Development Team can also introduce enemies with a set of "Break" skills that can bring an item's durability down to 0 to help accelerate the development of this market.

Honestly if you need to write more than 2 sentences to explain how it works it's less handy than a proper AH.
MW will NEVER be better than a real AH. Never ever.

Now it's working like an abandoned failed game design idea that's trying to cater to player's AH demands but as a result it's just a mess of menus.

The good thing about an AH is that everyone knew instantly how it works. Looking for zombies with stars above their heads is about as natural as poking my eye with a fork.

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Originally Posted by Seif

Honestly if you need to write more than 2 sentences to explain how it works it's less handy than a proper AH.
MW will NEVER be better than a real AH. Never ever.

Now it's working like an abandoned failed game design idea that's trying to cater to player's AH demands but as a result it's just a mess of menus.

The good thing about an AH is that everyone knew instantly how it works. Looking for zombies with stars above their heads is about as natural as poking my eye with a fork.

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And people seem to be confusing a passable system with a good system. Yeah, you can sell and buy things from market wards. That doesn't mean it's as good as already existing systems, or as good as it could be if it didn't use retainers or rendered shops. It just means it does the bare minimum to be functional.

Unfortunately that level of critical thinking is not allowed on these boards.

No, because critical thinking and thorough, objective analysis is "just your opinion".

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

No, because critical thinking and thorough, objective analysis is "just your opinion".

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rofl exactly.

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Originally Posted by Seif

Honestly if you need to write more than 2 sentences to explain how it works it's less handy than a proper AH.

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We've had to read at least 7 pages of articles to understand the EVE market systems. By your rule, that would make that system not a proper AH.

Actually, by your rule, the only proper AH would be in World Of Warcraft. I guess one could argue that, but I personally wouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

We've had to read at least 7 pages of articles to understand the EVE market systems. By your rule, that would make that system not a proper AH.

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ITP: Making something harder to use makes it better.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

We've had to read at least 7 pages of articles to understand the EVE market systems. By your rule, that would make that system not a proper AH.

Actually, by your rule, the only proper AH would be in World Of Warcraft. I guess one could argue that, but I personally wouldn't.

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I'd argue that if WoW system didnt have timed bidding as an option blizzard wouldn't have called it an auction house.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

ITP: Making something harder to use makes it better.

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Absolutely not, sir.

In the IT world, we don't call anything "better" unless it clearly has two components.

Better = Faster + Easier.

If it's slower, users won't think it's better, no matter what features it has.
If it's harder to use, users won't think it's better no matter what features it has.

This is also known as the Windows Vista Phenomenon.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

MW only lacks certain features and it was even stated an AH won't SOLVE ANY PROBLEMS INSTANTLY LIKE PEOPLE STILL SEEM TO THINK.

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Why not? All the problems stem from having to wade through hundreds of NPCs standing in one room.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Absolutely not, sir.

In the IT world, we don't call anything "better" unless it clearly has two components.

Better = Faster + Easier.

If it's slower, users won't think it's better, no matter what features it has.
If it's harder to use, users won't think it's better no matter what features it has.

This is also known as the Windows Vista Phenomenon.

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Although I agree with your statement, this is not the IT world.

Your statement would of applied well if you were discussing a windows application to make something easier for users.

I'm not hatin' by the way, just saying.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Absolutely not, sir.

In the IT world, we don't call anything "better" unless it clearly has two components.

Better = Faster + Easier.

If it's slower, users won't think it's better, no matter what features it has.
If it's harder to use, users won't think it's better no matter what features it has.

This is also known as the Windows Vista Phenomenon.

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And in MMO terms that means that the Market Wards and EVE's System fail. Thanks for proving my point.

Reading about how something works and actually using it are two entirely different things, and yes this game desperately needs a way to remove items from the economy. Desynthing would probably be the best route.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

And in MMO terms that means that the Market Wards and EVE's System fail. Thanks for proving my point.

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You're quite welcome. I'm an equal opportunity debater. I don't ignore valid points simply because I disagree with them. But when one person is championing a viewpoint so well, I feel little need to pile on. So it might seem like I'm ignoring them.

IMO just add an ability to search for a specific item via a search box and allow the player to purchase an item without having to enter the wards and the problem is solved.

PS. link the 3 cities wards together

I think, for the sake of the extreme, I will engage in a ridiculous amount of hyperbole.

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SE is coming out with these new raid dungeons, and the purpose of raid dungeons, is to get awesome rewards at the end.

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Dungeons are intended to push teamwork to the limit, and players can expect a level of satisfaction (and spoils!) befitting the challenge

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Now, it seems that an awful lot of system resources and player time are going to be wasted in handing out this gear to the players. I mean, first you'll have to do whatever is needed to get INTO the dungeon, then fight through the dungeon, then spend a fair amount of time actually FIGHTING the dungeon boss. In addition, the devs seem to spending a LOT of time developing all this. Not only that, but I doubt that the servers will be up to handling animating and moving all of these NPCs. Especially once new subscribers come back. I mean, look how badly the servers are crashing WITHOUT ANY dungeons!

It would be much faster to develop, and much more efficient for players to get this nice gear, if SE would just replace this 'raid dungeon' concept with a simple menu driven system. Players simply access an NPC, select which dungeon they want to complete, select which gear reward they want to receive, and said gear is instantly delivered to them!

Bonuses of this system:
Doesn't waste system resources animating and controlling hundreds of NPCs
Doesn't waste player time having to actually move to and through the instanced area
Provides a clear and easy to use interface that allows the player to get exactly what he wants in the minimal amount of time.

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Okay, extreme hyperbole off. I know it's a ridiculous example. But I just couldn't help myself. Flame on! :D

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Originally Posted by Amineri

I think, for the sake of the extreme, I will engage in a ridiculous amount of hyperbole.

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SE is coming out with these new raid dungeons, and the purpose of raid dungeons, is to get awesome rewards at the end.


Now, it seems that an awful lot of system resources and player time are going to be wasted in handing out this gear to the players. I mean, first you'll have to do whatever is needed to get INTO the dungeon, then fight through the dungeon, then spend a fair amount of time actually FIGHTING the dungeon boss. In addition, the devs seem to spending a LOT of time developing all this. Not only that, but I doubt that the servers will be up to handling animating and moving all of these NPCs. Especially once new subscribers come back. I mean, look how badly the servers are crashing WITHOUT ANY dungeons!

It would be much faster to develop, and much more efficient for players to get this nice gear, if SE would just replace this 'raid dungeon' concept with a simple menu driven system. Players simply access an NPC, select which dungeon they want to complete, select which gear reward they want to receive, and said gear is instantly delivered to them!

Bonuses of this system:
Doesn't waste system resources animating and controlling hundreds of NPCs
Doesn't waste player time having to actually move to and through the instanced area
Provides a clear and easy to use interface that allows the player to get exactly what he wants in the minimal amount of time.

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Okay, extreme hyperbole off. I know it's a ridiculous example. But I just couldn't help myself. Flame on! :D

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Way to add negative intelligence to the topic.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

I think, for the sake of the extreme, I will engage in a ridiculous amount of hyperbole.

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SE is coming out with these new raid dungeons, and the purpose of raid dungeons, is to get awesome rewards at the end.


Now, it seems that an awful lot of system resources and player time are going to be wasted in handing out this gear to the players. I mean, first you'll have to do whatever is needed to get INTO the dungeon, then fight through the dungeon, then spend a fair amount of time actually FIGHTING the dungeon boss. In addition, the devs seem to spending a LOT of time developing all this. Not only that, but I doubt that the servers will be up to handling animating and moving all of these NPCs. Especially once new subscribers come back. I mean, look how badly the servers are crashing WITHOUT ANY dungeons!

It would be much faster to develop, and much more efficient for players to get this nice gear, if SE would just replace this 'raid dungeon' concept with a simple menu driven system. Players simply access an NPC, select which dungeon they want to complete, select which gear reward they want to receive, and said gear is instantly delivered to them!

Bonuses of this system:
Doesn't waste system resources animating and controlling hundreds of NPCs
Doesn't waste player time having to actually move to and through the instanced area
Provides a clear and easy to use interface that allows the player to get exactly what he wants in the minimal amount of time.

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Okay, extreme hyperbole off. I know it's a ridiculous example. But I just couldn't help myself. Flame on! :D

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its actually exactly the same thing. Its the same thing as instant transportion versus walking/airships/chocobos. What it boild down to, is many people dont want to engage in marketing/merchanting, but they want to have the results, so they want the system to be as immersionless as possible, they simply dont want to play that game, so they want it to be as simple and easy as possible. Even with eve examples there is a whole travel aspect.

notice no is trying to make AH more fun, or interesting in its execution, thats because its not about making merchanting/marketing/trading a better type of game, its about eliminating it from being a game element. Which is fine, you hate merchanting, and want the game to be completely about battle, thats a valid opinion, but dont act like you are making a better game, you are simply removing a game element from a game you dont like. Like if you suck/hate at dribbling in basketball, go on a crusade to remove it from the game, after all its not as effecient and makes the game uneccarily difficult.

of course this only makes sense if you think basketball is just about shooting and passing.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

I think, for the sake of the extreme, I will engage in a ridiculous amount of hyperbole.

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Yep, the reason this hyperbolic suggestion sounds so ridiculous is simple:

The graphics engine and character rendering are directly related to the subject of battle.

The graphics engine and character rendering are not directly related to the subject of trading goods.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Yep, the reason this hyperbolic suggestion sounds so ridiculous is simple:

The graphics engine and character rendering are directly related to the subject of battle.

The graphics engine and character rendering are not directly related to the subject of trading goods.

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incorrect, they had text based rpgs before, combat does not require any charachters and rendering, it merely makes it more immersive and entertaining, heck for a long time in an rpg you never even saw your charachter, just an enemy and some stuff in text box telling you how much your attack did.

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Originally Posted by Physic

incorrect, they had text based rpgs before, combat does not require any charachters and rendering, it merely makes it more immersive and entertaining, heck for a long time in an rpg you never even saw your charachter, just an enemy and some stuff in text box telling you how much your attack did.

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I liked those adventurer books where you chose a path and had to keep track of all your crap in the front...

EDIT: Made it easier to cheat, too. Sword that always hits and does +6d6 damage? Yesplz.

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Originally Posted by Physic

incorrect, they had text based rpgs before

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Yes, I know we had MUDs before.

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Originally Posted by Physic

combat does not require any charachters and rendering, it merely makes it more immersive and entertaining, heck for a long time in an rpg you never even saw your charachter, just an enemy and some stuff in text box telling you how much your attack did.

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You made my point right there. Graphics have a direct influence on the impact of battle. All things being equal, better graphics means a better battle experience.

Graphics do NOT have a direct influence on the impact of trading. At the end of the day, I'm still only exchanging goods. It's the exact same transaction in a MUD as it is in a contemporary MMO.

If FF14 can leverage its graphics to enhance the trading process, then great. However, as we all can see, integrating the graphics engine into the main driver of economic transaction is a liability since the failings of the game engine impact the trading process directly. So far, this endeavor has only hurt FF14 rather than help it.

Forcing a buggy, unstable NPC to act as my middleman isn't working.

Forcing a bug-free, stable NPC to act as my middleman would be fine, but we STILL haven't reached that point yet despite 5 years of development and near 8 months of post-launch waiting.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Yes, I know we had MUDs before.


You made my point right there. Graphics have a direct influence on the impact of battle. All things being equal, better graphics means a better battle experience.

Graphics do NOT have a direct influence on the impact of trading. At the end of the day, I'm still only exchanging goods. It's the exact same transaction in a MUD as it is in a contemporary MMO.

If FF14 can leverage its graphics to enhance the trading process, then great. However, as we all can see, integrating the graphics engine into the main driver of economic transaction is a liability since the failings of the game engine impact the trading process directly. So far, this endeavor has only hurt FF14 rather than help it.

Forcing a buggy, unstable NPC to act as my middleman isn't working.

Forcing a bug-free, stable NPC to act as my middleman would be fine, but we STILL haven't reached that point yet despite 5 years of development and near 8 months of post-launch waiting.

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Not to mention that the primary purpose of Market Wards (or any in game trading system) is not to provide something visually stunning, it's to facilitate trading between players, and as is evident, adding complex graphics to that DETRACTS from its purpose.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Not to mention that the primary purpose of Market Wards (or any in game trading system) is not to provide something visually stunning, it's to facilitate trading between players, and as is evident, adding complex graphics to that DETRACTS from its purpose.

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They can just make the auction house visually stunning.

Not by rendering every vendor or separating every category into a different zone.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Not by rendering every vendor or separating every category into a different zone.

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'Course not, that's just silly.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

'Course not, that's just silly.

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The market wards in a nutshell.

If you read my posts then I say that I don't think it will be an instant fix. Right now I've been waiting 8 months for SE to fix this. MW is awful. Get rid of the retainers and add in a timed bidding. I've played this game for 8 months and know NOTHING is an instant fix. I mean we can't even get linkshell management capability's. Where's the chocobo's? Where's the airships? Get real! But when the majority is asking for an AH and only a few players want to hang on to a backward system, I think it's time to change.